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I wanted to resurrect the Busties of Color thread. Allies welcome.

Reading in another thread about what is feminist/not feminist got me thinking about how people perceive women of color. For me, being black, I have constantly spent most of my life being told that I am not black enough. Even my grandmother has said that to me.

I remember sitting in my hairdresser's chair and asking if we could turn the news off. I simply found it depressing. She then said that "my grandmother was right, you do think you are a white girl". I was crushed. It still hurts to think about because I just want to be myself. I am just me, yet it's not good enough.

Sometimes I wonder if I should call myself feminist or womanist. Am I betraying other WOCs if I call myself feminist? Do I really think I'm white?

It's been the bane of my existence for years. I've been depressed over it and I would love to discuss stuff like this.

Also, in what ways does the feminist movement still exclude women of color?
your post made me think of this song

Artist: Murs
Album: Murray's Revenge
Title: Dark Skinned White Girl

She got that mocha-chino baby on the back of the bus
If you close your eyes and listen she would be one of us
Never did trust, her family at home
So she kicked it in the hood, raised her self on her own
She talk with that tone, but she white to the bone
You would swear she was black if you spoke on the phone
Some say its overgrown, but she don't give a damn
All the black girls think that she want they man
But it's not your fault that they attracted to you
That you blessed and got as much back as you do
Most white boys say that you're way too thick
And some brothers might say, you're the number one pick
You say [psh], girl...Roll your eyes twist your neck
But it comes from the soul you don't mean no disrespect
And even when they check you, you just keep it movin'
Cuz in your heart you feel you ain't got nothing to be provin'

[Chorus] 2X
Whether chocolate or vanilla, or you're somewhere in between
A cappuccino mocha or a caramel queen
Rejected by the black, not accepted by the white world
And this is dedicated to them dark skinned white girls

[Verse II]
Now she like, Dismissed, The Cure, really into Morrisey
Heavy on the rock never fooled with jodici
You would notice she was never really welcomed by the others
Hard to find a date when there was only ten brothers
In the whole damn school, and they thought she was weird
Cuz she wore her hair different, and she never joined cheer
A melancholy dolly with a Polly want-a syndrome
White step-father black daddy never been home
And when on the quad she could hear em' say
Look at how she walks, why she talk that way
But girl it's okay, your black is beautiful
No matter how you dress, or no matter what music you like
Forget what they say, you're doin' it right
No more grabbin' on your pillow as you cry through the night
Stand strong, hold your ground at any cost
and know that everyone who tries to put you down is lost

Whether chocolate or vanilla, or you're somewhere in between
A cappuccino mocha or a caramel queen
Rejected by the black, not accepted by the white world
And this is dedicated to them dark skinned white girls

[Verse 3]
Now for you half-and-half and mixed girls, I know what the battle be
Every time you go out, it's what's your nationality
Everybody always wanna dig up in your background
You don't look _____, now how does that sound
I couldn't tell you or...(tell you or...)
Oh, is that right
Do you take it as a compliment or start up a fight
Venezuelan and Indian, Rican and Dominican
Japanese or Portuguese, quarter a Brazilian and.
White and Korean, Black and Pinay
I could find out later it don't matter you're fly
It really don't make a difference to most of us guys
We just need an excuse to get close and say hi
I know they call you stuck up, you think you're too pretty
Spreadin' rumors about you, all throughout the city
So much attention, so many haters
But don't be bitter, you'll be better for it later and...

Whether chocolate or vanilla, or you're somewhere in between
A cappuccino mocha or a caramel queen
Rejected by the black, not accepted by the white world
And this is dedicated to them dark skinned white girls

thanks for the invite, lilly. thanks for the thread too. i'm sure i'll be here often. smile.gif
I like that song, I gotta find it somewhere.

I've been thinking about that whole acting black crap. When you really think about it, what the hell does that even mean? Is there some book of black that I didn't get when I was born?

Its just so nebulous and yet people hold on to it so tightly. I can't wrap my brain around it really.

For example, for as much as I don't agree with Condi Rice, I can't ever say that she's not black. It just doesn't make sense to me. Is it what I do makes me black, or is it just what I am? If someone saw me and I said I wasn't black, they would think I was crazy. Yet, because of the way I talk or act, I lose that. That doesn't allow me my full humanity if you ask me.
hey i didn't get a copy either. damn.

as for condi... well to me she's a sell out. she and clarence thomas are two peas in a pod.

i was kind of thinking what it means to be black the other day, they were showing these old black and white musicals, like "stormy weather" with the nicholas brothers (love them) lina horne, and fats waller. they had this "tribal" dance scene, and it was all of these cliches. but i think it's odd that black people in this country think of ourselves as 'african american' in so many ways we are disconnected from our various non-monolithic african cultures. where i live there is a black, (but first gen african) writer who wrote an article years ago about how kwanza was an american concoction, since according to him there is no african coraliary. and while the white citizens seem to talk about the article every holiday season, my view is, "yeah? and?" who cares? i look at all the things that black culture has given this country and the world with only vague, foggy memmories from africa, and cast offs, who cares if kwanzaa is made up. so was the blues, and jazz, soul and hip hop, graffitti and break dancing, jitterbug, and swing, beat boxing and mcing, zoot suits, reet, petite and gone. hand jive and the bump, power fro's tap dancing and soul power, handshakes and cornrows. all made up from our imagination and creativity. what is my point? i dunno, i guess i am in favor of jettisoning the african in african american in favor of black. most of us don't really know much about africa. it was stolen from us, but we do know black culture. we make it up everyday. each of us, everyday....
see, i have a trouble with the phrase sell-out. i mean, yes, she totally knocked the ladder (affirmative action) down after she got up, but is that what people mean? for me, the whole "they aren't black" thing means toeing the line. like we have to have the same thoughts and opinions. i don't agree with them, but i have to say that that's part of the diaspora (maybe not the greatest part, but still a part).

re: kwanzaa being american, i agree. big deal. president's day is american too. the whole point was to celebrate being black americans in a country that says it's a bad thing to be.

i'll keep african american, only because my dad is from nigeria. but i still prefer to use black. it's easier and a lot less to say and type. wink.gif
QUOTE(lilyblue @ Jan 17 2007, 11:09 PM) *

Also, in what ways does the feminist movement still exclude women of color?

I had a long conversation with my boyfriend about minorities as feminists. He has made some pretty good points in saying that western women really don't need to fight for themselves, but should focus their attention on bringing aid to women overseas whose cultures bind and oppress them. I then asked him if it would be the right thing to do by stiring up cultures and trying to change the way things have been for thousands of years. I can understand wanting to help these women, but it's their culture all the same.
My best friend gt the 'not black enough' thing all through school because she was born in London and speaks with a british accent.

The ironic thing is she got this from a deeply suburban community who decided around '92 that they were all about the ghetto, despite having never been 10 miles near the city line.

She eventually went back to London to get her degree, married a lovely portuguese man, and is now writing her dissertation on African/West Indian Immigration in Europe. She probably knows more about her actual heritage than any of the mushmouthed idiots who mocked her for her alleged 'whiteness'.

I've never been a fan of Clarence Thomass or Condi, but the sellout thing has always bothered me a little bit.

F'rinstance, this warehouse I worked at was 85% black, 25% vietnamese, me, and one mexican guy. There were no black managers until the chick who worked with me in the Vintage department got promoted. (Which she damn well should have--she could have run the whole place if they'd have let her) The minute she became management she got shit from every black worker there. Every one.

She got shit I didn't even get for being white. Shit the vietnamese didn't get for being asian.

I won't even talk about what they had to say when she bought a house with her husband and kids. It always seemed to me that they resented her for doing better for herself and not smoking crack all weekend (which most of them did--literally). They thought she was somehow a race-traitor because she didn't want to make $5 an hour and live in the projects and worry about her kids getting shot.

So from the outside, at least, the 'acting black' thing can sometimes seem to be counter-intuitive.
(cross-post with "Pop Culture Feminism")

I have a question for you ladies, but first I have to give some background:

Besides Bust and Venus, I don't buy any "women's" magazines. I think they are stupid and generalize women as vain and rabid consumers. I do remember hearing (and it has become quite obvious) that women's mags practically never have a woman of color on their covers because "they don't sell". I also realized that when dark girls win America's Next Top Model, they get featured inside a mag but don't get the cover, yet Nicole and Caridee (white girls that won) DO get a cover. What the hell is that!?!

Because this pissed me off so much, I started to purposely buy any major mag that had the guts to use a woman of color as their cover girl. I got a TeenVogue with a black covermodel a while back, and recently bought Lucky cuz Rosario Dawson was on it. I skimed through the mags, and I felt lobodimized! The content was sickingly vapid! So it made me ask myself if I had the right decision. Does buying these mags when they have a dark covergirl really making a difference? Or am I just supporting these stupid magazines by buying them at all? I'm really interested in other opinions.
Reading in another thread about what is feminist/not feminist got me thinking about how people perceive women of color. For me, being black, I have constantly spent most of my life being told that I am not black enough. Even my grandmother has said that to me.

I remember sitting in my hairdresser's chair and asking if we could turn the news off. I simply found it depressing. She then said that "my grandmother was right, you do think you are a white girl". I was crushed. It still hurts to think about because I just want to be myself. I am just me, yet it's not good enough.

Sometimes I wonder if I should call myself feminist or womanist. Am I betraying other WOCs if I call myself feminist? Do I really think I'm white?

I can totally empathize with you. I've been called a coconut more times than I care to remember and been told I'm not Mexican my entire life. It's weird what constitutes as "Mexican." And a lot of times, I think my feminism as it odds with my a lot of cultural aspects of "Mexican-ness." I remember being in college with my first boyfriend, who happened to be actually from Mexico. He was insulted that I didn't get jealous or didn't try to check up on him every 10 seconds. I won't do that, ever. It would feel ridiculous, and in my mindset, if I'm going to be that insecure in a relationship, where I have to keep checking up on my dude, I'd rather just be single. And I was telling my friends, you know, I don't see the point in being jealous. Their response: "It's because you're not Mexican." WTF?!

There are other aspects where my identity feels completely unstable and at odds with my gender/environmental/social politics, too many to count, actually. At the same time, I don't think that feminism and racial politics have to be necessarily at odds. I don't see feminism as this one big (white)blanket entity, although it certainly feels like it with "mainstream" feminism. There's black feminism, Chicana feminism, Marxist feminism...the list is endless. Unfortunately, I think people in general do seem to equate feminism with white, middle-class women. A really great book that covers the some of the history and theory behind WOC feminism (in a very accessible way) is Seperate Roads to Feminism by Benita Roth. I highly recommend it.

I have a lot more to say, but I need to think about it a little more and figure it out first. Plus I feel like I'm writing a book! tongue.gif

ETA: greenbean, there was a good article in the current issue of bitch (the green issue), exploring the racial politics of magazine covers through this one episode of Tyra Banks' talk show when Naomi Campbell was a guest. i don't remember the specifics because i read it a couple of months ago, but it was really insightful.

as a sidenote, you know what used to annoy the hell out of me with magazine content? i used to read seventeen, etc., and the makeup tips for "dark" skin featured the whitest-looking "dark" girls ever! grr.
as a sidenote, you know what used to annoy the hell out of me with magazine content? i used to read seventeen, etc., and the makeup tips for "dark" skin featured the whitest-looking "dark" girls ever! grr.

faerietails, i'll get to the rest of your post, but I was wondering what you think of Latina magazine? I wanna like it, but it still seems to suffer from the same issue of having only light skinned latinas on the cover.

Has anyone seen that new Killers video? this one? I was so happy to see them use such a beautiful indio/chicana as their video girl. Of course, racism is not dead, and the comments on youtube degenerate into name-calling. Don't read it youre thin-skinned. unsure.gif
anna k
Their video for "Bones" features the model/actress Devon Aoki, who is Japanese and white.

That video is great, it's very sad and beautiful and I like the cinematography.

I've read Latina, and it gets annoying when they throw in random Spanish words/phrases in an English-language piece. Like "You might say this is muy caliente!" It's as if someone wrote in English then edited it by adding occasional Spanish words, otherwise it could run in an "gringa" magazine.
sigh. all of the mag talk reminds me of 'honey' which started out so amazing, and then went pop before it folded. sniff.
Fuck thyself, troll.
It's weird. I know I'm a freak. I've always been a freak. I'm okay with it. But the way that certain members of my family/the black community reject me always freaks me out. On one hand I'm uber accepted because "lighter is better" & on the other I'm just not black enough. I'm very aware of my heritage on both sides & have done extensive work on our history, but it never seems enough. I can go through family photos & tell the story of each person, I know all of my Gran's recipes, etc, etc, etc, but it's never enough.
I can somewhat empathize with the not black enough dilemma, since I'm mixed (asian and european). I'm never given full credit as either of my ethnicities, but then again it can also be used to my advantage because it gives me an excuse to not like all the food, or know the language well, etc. Nobody has explicitly told me I was too white, but I realize that I do display a lot of so-called 'white' behaviour (ie. listening to indie rock). But then again, it's not like there are any rules as to what someone of my background is supposed to act like, so I guess it gives me a bit more freedom.

faerietails, thanks for the suggestion. I will have to check it out.

greenbean, there was a study done on bridal magazines that found that black women were never featured on the cover, and even in the ads they were mostly only shown as bridesmaids.

oh, and check out the rest of the blog, it's fantastic. smile.gif

so, given that Gwen Stefani is on the cover of the current Bust issue, what does everyone think about her use of the Harajuku girls? I was glad that the interview at least addressed it, but her response of "Margaret Cho didn't do her research! I glorify the culture blah blah blah" really really irks me. I don't doubt that she had no intentions of being racist, and probably is too naive to see why people are making such a fuss about it, but that still doesn't stop me from feeling like the whole thing is just wrong every time I see them. Now she even has them wearing blonde wigs to look like her! How darling!!! dry.gif
Thanks for the link Lex!
I too get crap from my latino side for being into indie rock. pisses me off. Besides, there is a growing number of people of color who are in the indie scene, like TV on the radio, CSS, bloc party, all girl summer fun band, pretty girls make graves....of course, those band members are prolly called"too white" by their family too. rolleyes.gif

The thing about the Harajuka girls, I have mixed feelings. It is performance, so I'm hesitant to treat it as a political issue, but I understand why some asians can feel exploited by it.

AP, I make better mexican food than my "more brown" cousins do, and I agree it just doesnt seem to be enough does it?(!)
i've been meaning to read this thread and post in here.

there a great book by bell hooks that address being black and being a feminist, "talking back, talking black." it is difficult to be a latina and feminist. the ideals are complete opposites. not that i'm one to play by the rules. BUT, it is a struggle to be my ambitious, driven self AND still feel that I am being responsible for my family. I know most women struggle with this issue, but put in the context of Mexican is pretty hard.
yay stargazer. My white side and my mexican side are sooooo different. On my mexican side the whole extended family lives in the same county, and family parties are like, monthly if not more frequent. The handful of kids that ventured to move out (like myself, about an 8 hour drive away) are always treated like they dont care about family enough.

On my dads side, the family only gets together once a year, and kids are encouraged to go to college far far away, you know, be independent. In that family I felt like I was thought of as wussy for not leaving the state!

lex, thanks for that link. it's something i recognized while reading martha stewart weddings. there were only two ads with black women and one actually had one in a wedding dress...too bad they featured her from the back.

greenbean, i think this goes back to your original question. i am starting to think that if we let the magazines know that if they were to feature more people of color (and not just the ones that look closest to white), we would be willing to buy their magazines. then again, do i really want to contribute to more consumerism in general?


how do y'all cope with the racial stereotypes placed on women of color with regards to sexuality? for me, i tend to keep my true sexual self hidden because I don't want to appear to be a stereotypical black woman. you know, always willing and wild sexually. except that's partly who i am. i have a strong drive and yet i feel like i have to hide it because the culture at large can't handle black women who own their own bodies. it also can't handle the idea of a black woman who is also tender hearted and shy who also likes sex. it's like i have to be the damned virgin or the whore.

now this can apply for all women, yet the mass media seems to put out the image of women of color as especially wanton in their desires instead of making it absolutely natural. i've been thinking of this especially since reading a paper by Celine Shimizu regarding Asian women in porn (it's fascinating really, if you want to read it, i can send it to you.). i'm not totally comfortable with porn/men's media, and even to a lesser level, women's media for this reason.

not seeing anyone like me reflected make me feel odd. like, am i really black because i don't act this way? or am i more white-identified because i do?
lilyblue, could you send me the Shimizu article (or just the citation for it - I could probably get it from one of the libraries), please?

how do y'all cope with the racial stereotypes placed on women of color with regards to sexuality?

I usually get inarticulately pissed off. Then I rant about it to friends. I've had lots of older guys, complete strangers, coming up to me and calling me "Suzy Wong" (a la the 1950s film whose main character is a Hong Kong prostitute) - not so much these days (hopefully they're dying off now). Other times I've said something the teeniest bit innuendo-ish, not trying to flirt but just having fun playing with words, and the guy looks me up and down and I can see visions of Asian female stereotypes dancing around inside his head. Ick. I've never figured out what I could say to these guys to puncture their attempts to plaster their stereotypes onto me. (Something more articulate than "Fuck off," I mean.)

I've found it fascinating to read about the history (centuries old, some of them) of these stereotypes, about Asian, African-American, Latina, First Nations/ Aboriginal/ Native women, etc etc, all variations on the "whore" part of the virgin/whore binary. We've come a long way but oh so much work to do still.
i think i do the same thing lily. although my circomstances are a bit different. i have never fit into anyone's stereotype of being black, male/female or even transgender. but that's where i find my pride. don't get me wrong, i love black culture-- i love hip hop, i love queer culture too. but it's not me. i don't snap my fingers, and draw out the word 'girlfriend'. i know drag queens who do that. and that is fine. but i never felt comfortable doing it, because it's not me. so there are parts of me that don't fit that stereotype. but the parts that do fit that stereotypical , well, they do fit, because i am being me. it should come as no more a suprize that there parts of me that have no stereotypical union with transgendered, or black people-- and parts that do. very few people fit entirely in those 'straightjackets,' so i just concentrate on being me. i guess what i'm saying is do you.

yeah, i get annoyed when guys think that because i am trans that i want to suck their dicks for no other reason than because the drag queen they met last weekend did. or they saw a few porn movies about how constantly horny trannys are-- or, and this one kills me-- because they figure no one else would want me. but i also think if you act like you are different people treat you differently. it's a projection thing. it's like when you see someone who is pissed off. they project that and you pick up on it. same thing. or atleast that's my theory. i have friends who have crazy stories, but they don't happen to me that often. but that might just be because i look like i'd beat them with my skateboard if they crossed me...wink.gif
Anarch, I have a friend that's one of those guys. He is obsessed with all things Asian, but particularly Japanese women. We were hanging out one night & he declared that he was going to have a t shirt made that said, "I want a Japanese girlfriend." I assured that with that approach he wasn't going to get one because the women of most cultures don't tend to like to be fetishized. He didn't understand why it was creepy at all.

There are fewer things that turn me off more than a guy asking me about dating out of my own race. They don't usually start off in a friendly way, they go staright for the, "So, do you date white guys (etc.)?" Um, the ones that don't ask if I date white guys right off the bat.
auralpoison: He didn't understand why it was creepy at all.

Reminds me of the Seinfeld episode where Jerry says "I love Chinese women!" & spends the rest of the episode insisting that that's not racist because he's saying something nice. No clue that it's still pigeonholing.

girltrouble: because they figure no one else would want me

god. asshats.

Going back several posts to the topic of being "not black enough", I've recently read a book, American Apartheid , that blew my mind. Most of it's about historical & ongoing residential segregation that kept & keeps a majority of African-Americans from being able to move into areas with low crime, good schools, grocery stores with fresh food, non-predatory banks etc (& everything else you need to accumulate wealth that you can pass on to your kids & their kids, to ensure they get the best opportunities possible). (Girltrouble I think you posted something about predatory & discriminatory mortgage lending practices somewhere, but I can't remember where. Anyway, it ties in with this book)

But there's a bit where they talk about some of the ways that American "Black" culture became identified as Opposite to values that supposedly belonged mostly to middle-class Whites. You guys might find it interesting.
A guy I dated once told me he only dates white girls because black girls don't suck dick.

We didn't date for long. He was kind of an idiot in many other ways.

I had a korean friend who was a lesbian (heh-she used to call herself a les-'Rean. She was hilarious.) and she used to get the 'yellow fever' stare from guys all the time. When they'd ask her if she was into white guys, she usually told them no, that she preferred black women. Of course, some of them thought that meant she wanted to let them watch. Pffft. Ordinary guys are so stupid.
One time I had to do group work for a (college) English class. We had two jackasses in our group, although one had the decency to know when to keep his mouth shut. I should've known the other one would turn out to be a total ass when he kept going on about how he "would totally do our teacher."

After our big presentation, the whole group decided to go out for drinks after class (there were about 8 of us). Dickhead went into this huge story about how he went down to south tx (where I'm originally from) and hit up a strip club with all his friends. This "beautiful white stripper" was all over him and he was totally into her, but after a while they got to talking and he found out that she was actually Mexican. (Let me just add that I am Mexican-American, and I'm brown, so there's no hiding that fact). So then he spun off into this whole spiel about how he would never "do her" because even though she was "fucking hot" and "looked 100% white," he would "never be caught dead fucking a Mexican" because it his white cock was too good to be tainted by that, or some shit along those lines. He said all this with a smile as he sat directly in front of me.

I didn't say anything (and neither did anyone else--including another Latino--in the group) because I was in total shock, then the moment passed as he went on to some other story. But looking back, I should have kicked his beautiful, untainted little white cock really, really hard. It was certainly within my little Mexican foot's reach since I was sitting across from him.

Ugh. What the hell is wrong with people?
*shudders from faerie's tale*

yeah, there is a huge difference between respectful admiration and making a group a personal fetish.

i've had a few gfs talk about the contrast in our skin colors and how beautiful it was when we were lying together. that's cool. i had a girlfriend who had the most beautiful goldenbrown skin, and i loved that about her. but that wasn't why i wanted to date her. yeah, i thought she was fawksy as fuck, but it was more that she was super smart, and stronger, funnier and more ambitious than me. but when you reduce someone as a racial/ethnic sex object, it's just gross, and i could never get why people couldn't see the difference.

that said, at the risk of making myself look like an ass, i wonder (faerie) what you would say about my constant crushes on cholas. i grew up around them and to me i just really love the asthetic. that style of makeup, and toughness is just very beautiful to me. i wouldn't date a chola if i didn't think she was the shit, but is it the same thing?

one thing that has always interested me is subcultures and subcultural slang. a few days ago a co-worker of mine (she's asian) gave me a ride home, someone pulled in front of her, and by reflex she said "what is this nigger doing?" now, i didn't mind cos i usually give 'brown kids' a kind of pass. she asked me later if she offended me (i'm black), and i said no. what bugged me was how weird it sounded coming out of her mouth. some people say it like they are comfortable with the word and other people-- well it just sounds like the are trying to be 'cool'. this sounded kind of like that. race is a weird beast here in seattle. it's very progressive like where i grew up, but like where i grew up, just below that progressiveness is a distrust of anyone not white. anyways, i know this girl has black asian latino friends, and we always joke about asian culture (i am obsessed with korean films+japanese subcultures, and she always introduces me to asian slang words. like last week i heard the phrase "riced out". she said, yeah, i think my car got jacked cos it was all riced out." meaning it looked like an tuner-- a suped up import that asians drive.

i call anyone who is not white a 'brown kid' which makes her laugh. for me it's a phrase of solidarity. to me it means that you have some experience of living in america as some sort of other. a shared experience if you are latino asian indian or black. i got the phrase from a girlfriend who was german and puerto rican. her best friend was black and korean, and they would talk about each other's cultures in racial terms. my gf would talk about how she had a puerto rican 'flat ass' and her best friend would say she had korean 'moon face'. i suppose i have 'tranny feet'. but there were also slang phrases. if there was an asian who was particularly assy, they would retort "whatever, asia minor!"
but then they were into odd slang. like a person who was annoying or boring was "potatoes all-rotten." but between them and their friends-- brown kids --race was something that was a fact and to be talked about playfully....

anarch, i am really interested in the book you were talking about. what's interesting is finding out that totally segregated states (like oklahoma at one point) were the center of black uplift and black self sufficency..... until oil was found and white people took back the land that years before was 'unusable'. sometimes i think segregation at one point was the best thing for black people-- when it wasn't under an apartheid system....
See, now, being from middle America where young testosterone filled men fight over which is better, a Chevy or Ford pickup, "rice" is used as an insult. "Man, Jim Bob is drivin' him a motherfucking ricer. Damn Jap jobs." The same applies to good old, all American Harleys & import street bikes. Y'know, "buy Amurican."

I'd be interested in that book, too.

I can't remember who posted it, but I think it was one of our Texas Busties that talked about a guy in her dance class that made her feel really uncomfortable with his advances until she asked the teacher to speak with him. He had a "Japanese chicks are cool," sticker or some such on his bag & leered at her all the time.

I wigged on a friend of a friend for saying something like that. She was talking about how she just didn't think she could have sex with a black man. She thought it might be gross or something. She says this in front of TWO biracial women that were quite a bit smarter than her. I was like, "So I am the product of a union of grossness?"

i guess it all depends on context.

ricer. hmmmph!

yeah, here in the pacific rim-- riced out means it's got asian cool.

that said i am curious what boc think of some of the new 'racial commedians' like lisa lampenelli, sara silverman, carlos mencia, or even chris rock and going back a bit amy sedaris' strangers with candy, which dealt a lot with race and stereotypes...
gt, it's weird. i watched lisa lampenelli and was cracking up at times and at other times, i was cringing. i can't really stand sarah silverman and carlos mencia can be funny at times. that said, i love chris rock.

i think race comedy has to be handled carefully and that not everyone in the audience totally gets it and it seems to be playing right into their fucked up racist fantasies.

Shit like this.

i also have a problem with other poc using "nigga". it doesn't feel right to me becuase there is also racism within the whole poc community.

Up where you live you actually have Asians, GT. We had a three Thai kids & a ten or so Vietnamese kids.

There's a whole big controversy over Mencia right now because he's a joke thief & his whole backstory is bullshit. He makes fun of the Mexicans (Or his choice of words "beaners.") like he is one, when he's a actually Honduran/German born Ned Holness. He crafted the "Carlos Mencia" persona when he was starting out to ingratiate himself with the LA Mexican community. He's gotten into some tiffs with George Lopez & Joe Rogan over it.

I dunno how I feel about the new breed of race comics. Lisa Lampanelli sometimes makes me cringe, too, Lily. I just find Silverman's delivery/style to be routine & sometimes just crass because of the whole, "Look! She's so pretty! What a pretty girl! I can't believe she said something so gross! Shocking!" YAWN.

Comedy in general is weird in the way that different people perceive it. I've seen certain black comics perform before both mixed & majority black audiences & the shows are definitely different. A lot of the time non-pocs aren't sure how to react to some jokes that a black audience would jump up & down & holla for. Katt Williams or Chris Rock are good examples of performers that work "white rooms" with ease & aplomb while still appeasing their black audiences.
i find all of them funny and not funny (except chris rock. he's almost always funny. i love that he weaves politics into his comedy) lisa lampenelli least of all because she does blue comedy, which is a brave thing, and she makes fun of herself (and everyone else), she knows her stuff is offensive, and does talk about that in some shows. the same reason i love strangers w/ candy. everybody's a target. while i think sara silverman can be funny, i do think she relies way too much on being a jock's wet dream. (see AP's post). all and all the worst part of the afore mentioned comedians, is white people who think that that gives them licence to make jokes about race. sorry, no. it doesn't.

i never heard the carlos mencia thing. very interesting. the whole inter-ethnicity thing is always interesting. for most non-latinos mencia/holness would still be considered latino.

i suppose that it's kind of like the whole african vs. african-american thing. here there is a huge controversy about ethiopians-- my ex, who is white, and gets lots of love from the black community here, doesn't care for them because she does social work and has deep ties in the black community. years ago there was a project to tear down some of the projects to make them into nicer townhouses, and low income housing. the ethiopians had a few very well placed people in the department of housing, and once the houses were ready to be occupied, screened out black people turning those areas into ethiopian enclaves, leaving many of the original people this upgrade was supposed to help, s.o.l. needless to say there are a lot of angry black folk, but the (mostly) white local gov't. say (conveniently) black is black.
QUOTE(auralpoison @ Feb 18 2007, 11:32 PM) *

I dunno how I feel about the new breed of race comics. Lisa Lampanelli sometimes makes me cringe, too, Lily. I just find Silverman's delivery/style to be routine & sometimes just crass because of the whole, "Look! She's so pretty! What a pretty girl! I can't believe she said something so gross! Shocking!" YAWN.

Exactly! I think that's why I can't ever find Silverman funny. She's just so obvious. Like she's trying to be sneaky, but we can see right through her.

gt, that's why i'm kinda okay with Lampinelli and Drawn Together on Comedy Central. It's like equal opportunity offending. i know that it trades on racial/sexual/gender stereotypes, but it's mocking everyone.

the whole intra-ethnic bs gets me. it's like i've been opressed, so i get to opress someone else. it sucks all around. i know for me i want to be better than that and it sucks to have one who knows some form of opression pull that bullshit out on you.
Personally I can't stand Lisa Lampanelli, I just find her crass and offensive. My partner (he's also mixed) thinks she's hilarious. So different strokes, I guess. By the same token I'm not all that impressed by Sarah Silverman. I used to think she was funny back when she was on SNL, but now I just think she's racist.

However, that said I still love Russel Peters, Dave Chappelle, and Chris Rock. But I think I just give POC more leeway when it comes to racial jokes. It means something very different when it comes from a minority who is clearly attached to the culture they're making fun of, or that they at least have some kind of connection to. There's a big difference between Rosie O'Donnell going "ching chong chang chong" and Russel Peters (he's East Indian) doing a Vietnamese accent. For one thing he actually does a good job of the accent, plus you know the likelihood of him actually having a Vietnamese friend is much higher than that of Rosie chilling with some Chinese people.
yeah, i knew about mencia being from honduras. in fact, he even said so on his own show. or in a comedy special. i can't remember which one. but, he was making a point about how racist people can be because white americans think all brown people come from mexico. that's when he referenced being honduran.

i love all ethnic comics that are able to work in their ethnicity and how their experience being a person of color has been in America. i love the race wars on the chappelle show. and i still love the line by chris rock, "i'm not afraid of al quaida(sp?). i'm afraid of al cracka!"

sarah silverman is not funny. she is a shock jock. take out the curse words and if you cannot tell a story or joke without cursing, then you have no skillz. i'm not being a prude, but your sense of humor is very limiting. plus, her voice is just grating.

on something very best gay bf (he's black) and i (well, mexican, duh!) talked about how we like to date mainly white guys. BUT, one thing we've noticed is that they are very willing to sleep with us, but not able to commit to dating long term. in fact, my best gay even said how on the radio one morning...he heard these DJs taking calls about this topic. i'm very hesitant when a white guy hits on me 'cause i wonder if he's into collecting international babes. you know, he wants to see if the fantasy is true about latinas. makes dating that much harder for me.
i know what you mean sg. there is this guy who has been flirting with me for sometime, but he keeps asking me if i want to hang out with him at night, and frankly, i don't. a lot of tranny chasers are looking for booty calls. i hung out with a guy i thought was cool, but eventually i figured out he would only see me after work which made it about 3am.

one of my favorite chappelle show skits are the white family named "the niggas" and the blind black klansman.

i suppose i am the same as you and your friend. for the most part i've dated white women. but i don't think the sex/dating thing has the same dynamic. plus i'm the dating kind. i like getting to know a person, and falling for them-- which is pretty ironic considering some of my job choices.wink.gif

as for the rosie comment about chinese, i was trying to learn chinese at the time, and i thought it was funny in a wow-there-is-a-case-of-typical-american-ignorance kinda way. i found cantonese as a language, extremely complex, but it had a wonderful rhythm and sound. but i do like brown comics. i love hearing about their experience in this country, and comparing theirs to mine.
I'd only dated white guys before my current bf. What can I say, I have a limited selection and sometimes you just have to work with what you've got. But now that I'm with someone who has had similar experiences as I have and who just *gets* it and doesn't think that I obsess about my ethinicity, or overreact to questions... I just can't really imagine going back. At this point I think I could only date a white guy if he was exceptional and able to acknowledge his white privilege, etc. (like I said.. exceptional)

stargazer, I also wonder about the whole dating vs commitment thing. white guys are more than happy to date me, but i wonder what their parents would think of their son marrying a half vietnamese girl and possibly having mixed grandchildren. I also wonder if guys just want to say they've slept with X Y and Z type of girls.

girltrouble, the sad thing about the rosie ching chong debacle was the laugh she got from the audience. what really made me mad was that she kept insisting that she was doing an accent. that's not an accent, that is a poor imitation of a language. I just don't think she realized what she was getting herself into with that one. and kudos to you for trying to learn cantonese! although by the sounds of your post it seems like you've given up on that.. not that I blame you. wink.gif
going back to race comics, what do y'all think about Shirley Q. Liquor? no matter how i try to understand it, i don't find it funny at all. it's like we as a culture have chosen regression instead of enlightenment i can't see the irony, i just see the racism.

it sucks so bad because i try to be better than that. if i've been oppressed, i know what it feels like and i try my hardest not bring oppression to another. it also sucks because when you work hard to make sure that someone has the rights you have, they will still stab you in the back.

if you see the irony or the satire, please explain it to me. i really want to know.
i...think i just spit up a bit in my mouth.

the worst was his defense for that. i haven't seen the act, but i can't really see how that is taking on prejudice or racism. isn't that the same old black face? and if not tell me the difference? is it just confronting white people about how there used to be white people doing black face? well that's just as useless. either way, it's bs in my book. and what gets my blood boiling is there is gonna be some ass out there mimicing him, and will defend himself saying, hey rupaul likes him... as if that was some sort of license. grr!

i know what you mean about dating people who "get it." there are somethings that it's so nice not to have to explain. they know who "switch" is and can sing along with "i call your name." there is something so beautiful in having the same cultural landmarks, and lord knows there are white people who get it, and grew up with it, and that's cool too.

as for my giving up on chinese, yeah, temporarily. i lost my motivation when my favorite bootleg asian video store closed. i'd rather learn korean in all honesty, but cantonese will get me further-- in my 'hood, and in general.
I may not agree with Shirley, but it is where I got my "White people make me nervous" t shirt.

I think it offends me more when we give ourselves the minstrel treatment. Look at shit like Soul Plane. Black director, at least one black writer, & a few talented black actors just perpetuating the bullshit. I remember Chris Rock at the 2005 Academy Awards doing a bit in theatres where he asked black people if they'd seen any of the noms for best picture. None of them had, but they'd all seen Soul Plane.

So many POC's are so desperate for representation that we'll take it on any way we can. We're willing to be caricatures: gangsters, hoochies, etc, as long as we can see a coloured face on the screen. I just saw Harvey Firestein speaking about how gays are only acceptable if they're funny, pathetic, bitchy, dying, fashionable, etc. As long as they fall into acceptable terms of the mainstream, they're okay & revered (Will & Grace, Queer Eye, Mario Cantone on SATC, Noah's Arc, etc.), but as soon as they step out of that they're fucked. I think it's the same with us in a lot of ways.

Admittedly, tv gives us more ops to stretch the chops than cinema. Sandra & Isaiah(cringe) on Grey's, Gary & Archie on CSI, Marianne & Enrique WaT, Hill on CSI NY, Jesse on L&O, Adam & Khandi on CSI Miami, Dule on Psych, Ravi on Crossing Jordan, Dennis & Demore on the Unit, Shemar Moore on Criminal Minds, the variety of charcters in ER, Lost, etc. Hell, even American Idol supports POCS not acting a fool except in the beginning with the delusionals. I tried to support Lincoln Heights, but I'm not much of one for family dramas.

Movies, though? All our heroines are almost always paired with white men. I'm not even gonna go there. Julia Stiles was paired with black men in two films, but Jet Li & Aliyah were not even close to kissing in Romeo Must Die. It's fucked.

As far as dating goes, I'm screwed & always have been. My interests are not the same as the average POC that I meet. I like hiphop, but I hate that most of it is cliche. I don't like labels. I think grilles, bling, & pimp cups are silly. But then again, I'm not all militant, either. It's hard to meet a guy that likes musical variety (GT/Aviatrix, we have VERY similar broad palates), comic books, literature, foreign films, art, history, etc. 97.2% of the time I date white guys simply because we have more in common, not because I find them more physically attractive. When I was younger there was more of a worry of shock value, but not so much anymore. HB & I have very little in common, but me & my old white man are makin' it work. Just as a side note, he speaks Mandarin, GT.

That being said, I haven't had a guy since college try the shock value thing. Yeah, I've had the creeps that go in for the thrill of the forbidden, but I can usually suss them & ditch them. Long ago a boy took me home for Thanksgiving & his mom asked if I wanted "white meat or... a thigh?"

I think I've only ever dated one guy that "got it" & he was a white guy from Ohio, of all places. He could drop PE just as easily as I could drop PF. Had we married we would have started our own little Wu Tang clan.
gt, i am agree with you. i don't think it's an appropriate way of battling racism. it doesn't seem to be translating well to me and to most people who are on the outside watching a white man in blackface.

ap, i totally get what you are saying and would like to throw in a twist. what do you think of Dave Chappelle and the Wayans Brothers (White Chicks) doing whiteface? is this just a post-racism free for all or is it witty satire?

maybe it's me but are they wayans capable of witty satire?

ap, yeah, i've noticed we do have a lot of the same tastes. and i am soooo jealous of your old man knowing mandrin. i just want to try everything. people look at me weird when i start talking about old honky-tonk country, but i love that. it's good music. just cos i'm black doesn't mean i can't listen to it. my dad's best friend when i was a kid loved charlie pride and would crank the country-- so i've listened to that for a while, and i love it. and it's always cool to meet someone who knows black culture, just as it is someone who loves korean films. it's that shared experience-- the same cultural landmarks.

but your comment about black people doing black face gets at the heart of why the q. liquor isn't funny, witty, interesting or needed-- it's not like we don't have more than enough black people acting or critiquing those stereotypes, so what could a white person add to that?

i love hip hop too, but it always breaks my heart the road it's gone down. maybe it's me, but i thought it had the potentual to change so much about this country, and other countries. but now it's just about how x shot y, x sold y drugs, or how x is a pimp and has x car with x amount of money. just like my question earlier, what does a rapper have to add? not much anymore. in my book the only person who should have fronts would be slick rick, and he never really had em.

and i agree-- tv does afford more opportunies of different roles than film. i remember reading that chow yun fat was never doing american movies because he would never be cast as a romantic lead-- even in action movies. it seems the white man is scared of anyone getting any love but a white man. silly really.
Word, GT, that's excactly what I was thinking! The two youngest Wayans are just sucking up my precious oxygen. And Keenen... what a disappointment. The man held so much promise & then, blam! Suck city.

I find Chappelle's use of white face to be legitimate satire. But White Chicks? Bleh.

In movies, everybody gets the girl *but* the Asian guy. Take your average action picture. If Will Smith's the lead, he's gonna kiss the girl. Denzel & Wesley too. Hell, even Ice Cube got the hookup with the white girl in that XXX monstrosity. But Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Chow Yun Fat? Nope. And I happen to think Chow is sex on a stick. I'd fuck that man through a hardwood floor.

And where are our Latino boys? Represent! Enrique Murciano, Benjamin Bratt, Adam Rodriguez, Murilo BenĂ­cio, Benicio Del Toro, Edgar Ramirez, etc.

The whole rapper thing just slays me. What happened? I remember hearing Nation of Millions & thinking that hiphop could change the world. Now the complete & total irresponsibility of it, the overall lack of awareness. I have a cousin that doesn't have two nickels to rub together, but he wears $200 tennis shoes & drives a twenty year old Lexus because his idol Snoop Dogg does. P Diddy makes me partuclarly sick. I see those ads for Proactiv where he talks about needing specific cars, clothes, etc because he's Diddy. Fuck you, man. What say you forgo a few toys & send some kids to college...

oh, i know. i listen to xclan and think about how deep the lyrics are. and jay-z's first is still one of my favorites for the sheer lyrical pyrotechnics, but then. *pop* now it's "this is why i'm hot." no, junior, that's why you're not. and don't even get me started on the commercialism-- remember when it was about promoting black designers? fubu and cross colors? member when fashion houses kept predicting the death of streetwear's influence until they finally started doing streetwear and incorperated it? now it's just back to the same old. breaks my heart. breaks my heart.

and i agree with you on chow yun fat. i rarely find boys attractive, but he is sexy, and ben bratt...well, he's down right yummy.

thing i like about chappelle is he masquerades his stuff as "pot humor" but it says a lot about being black in america. it's really very intellegent, subversive stuff.
oh hell yeah! i keep wondering what happened to hip hop. were the 90s the end of actual innovation and talent. i keep saying that i should have my own video company and it would have a conveyor belt so that we can just keep churning out the same video and "music" perpetually. it's so damned shameful.

and don't even mention it in mainstream media. you'll get the whole "we have to support the community" line. i can't support this crap. i think it's just so awful.

maybe that's what the whole burn on all this blackface is. that all these college kids and Ms. Liquor are reflecting such falsehoods back on the black community. that that's the image that most people see of black america and it seems like so many of use are powerless to stop it. when the biggest names in the community seem to enjoy making millions off of minstrel behavior, that bites.

hopefully us alterna-negros can fix things.
oh shit! did we unionize? (finally!)alterna-negros unite! wink.gif
ha! of course there is a union. it's a secret organization involving tights and stuff. we have our own special hideout too. wink.gif

gt, i read what you wrote about femme power in the feminist thread and i wanted to comment on that here. your point about how anti-femme sentiments in the mainstream feminist community is something i totally identify with. add on to that, black woman aren't supposed to be femme at all and it seems to be actually revolutionary to claim our feminine identities.

so, everyone, here's the main point i'm asking: does the word "feminist" feel right to you? the more i read, the less it seems to fit me. i have started to recently embrace the word womanist more. knowing that it was designed to embrace black (and now all women of color) makes me feel empowered. it acknowledges both my being black and being a woman which is what i am working on embracing.


damn. i was just hoping for a decoder ring.... so where is this hideout?

i don't know, i consider myself a feminist, and i am very attached to it. i know it's history, but i am also committed to the evolution of the word and the movement. to stop calling myself a feminist is giving up too much ground to the right. they've been working very hard to get women to be afraid of that label, or to abandon it. using words like feminazi, etc. and their thing seems to have worked. as bust itself shows the beneficaries of feminism are afraid to even speak it's name. which, personally makes my blood boil.

don't get me wrong. i respect you, and your choice lilly, and frankly that is the best reason i have heard to migrate away from the word. but perhaps its my experience as a transexual that makes me "rather fight that switch." there isn't going to be any movement that is going to embrace me from the start. there isn't one that is going to embrace all that i am. so you work hard on the parts that do. try to change what does not.

gt, i get what you are saying and i'm not totally away from the word feminist, but sometimes, it feels like it doesn't express all that i feel and at times leaves out key parts of me.

i mean, if someone said that i sound like a feminist, then by all means, i would accept that as a compliment (even if they meant it as an insult).
lily, you should really read bell hook's talking back, talking black book. it is an excellent read and very informing of feminism and the role of minority women in the movement. more so about how we have different alliances than white women do.

it is harder to pull towards feminism because we do not want to go against the men of color who need our support. i still feel that white women have a sense of entitlement in this country. even young women. i still experience this feeling on a daily basis. i think the character of sandra bullock in crash was a great depiction of this feeling.

besides feeling i'm still straddling 2 cultures, i feel the same way about feminism. and even though i despise labels, i know that sometimes they are needed to make a point. i call myself a feminist. i think in a world of paris hiltons and lindsay lohans...this word is still needed to wake up america.

but, i'm more provocative and in your face about things. i know not everyone is like that.
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