Sep 13 2006, 07:31 PM
I don't know where I should put this, but I am watching this woman on TV. As a survivor, I really want to skewer this woman. I am outraged!!!!!!!!!! She is the victim?
She is killing survivors and the survivor movement.
" I went and picked him and his cousin . and they did what they wanted."
The main problem with that assertation:" She went and picked them up."
FUCK THIS MONSTER
They were 13, she was 24. This was not the first time.
And now they are blaming being Deborah being bi-polar.
Why is she not being treated like a man? Because she is hot.?.?
Sep 14 2006, 11:47 AM
I watched that show, too, and she was scary, she was so freaky, but... the whole .. if she was a man argument I have trouble with -- because if she was a man, she would have 50 victims, spanning decades, moving from place to place and job to job with no-one willing to say SHIT, and sometimes even being violent with the victims or killing them, and only belatedly, when elderly, ever being prosecuted.
Cause that's what I see on the news, so, so, often, all the more so if it's his own family. Here she is getting chased down for a LOT LESS. Not that she shouldn't get chased down, but ... men do and get away with this stuff a whole. lot.
Sep 14 2006, 12:05 PM
I hate these women. They are sick predators but don't see themselves as rapists because they don't have dicks, and they wrap it up in self-pitying emotional bullshit. They are sick bitches. Oprah did a show on it, and the father of one boy said right to the predator's face, "You raped our son over and over again."
Mary Kay marrying her victim and raising their children . . . that's nasty.
Sep 14 2006, 12:46 PM
the difference btw these women and men are HUGE. the women men prey on usually want nothing to do with the advances. on the other hand, these men have a much much lesser chance of being scarred from this. i dont know about you guys, but when i was 13 and 14 most men i knew would have had their dreams come true if an older hot teacher come on to them. while i think what these women did is weird and irresponsible, by NO means is it the same situation. not even close. mary kay, while we dont understand it, is now married to the boy who is in his 20's. you really think he didnt make that conscious decision at 20-something? come on now get a grip.
instead of making judgements, why dont you take a look at thee boys and see if they care at all? i dont agree with it, but women have gone through century upon century of being victimized by older men, and like it or not, we live in a society where young boys are not scarred by things like this, if anything, they love it. i dont think these women are victims, but GGG, you are a victim/survivor bc its something you didnt want. do we really have any idea what the boys think? chances are, they dont feel as you do.
Sep 14 2006, 01:06 PM
yup, my ex was essentially molested at a pretty young age by his teenaged babysitter. he talks about it like it was some awsome thing that he was lucky to have happen to him but you know what? his attitude about women SUCKs and i think that what happened to him as a young boy helped to shape that. seriously, he views women as objects for pleasure, he evaluates women based on their attractiveness. i am pretty darn sure that that stems from having had a sexual experience so young without any sort of intellectual base to view it from. perhaps in another culture where there are coming of age rituals that define the separate times in boys/men and girls/womens lives and what that means to them an early sexual experience wouldn't be so detrimental but from what i know engaging in sexual behavior with a 'minor' in that sort of tribal community is forbidden. as it has been here.
so, while i agree that young boys having that kind of interaction with older girls/women might not ultimately be as traumatic as it can be for girls in the same situation, it certainly is NOT harmless. it has a lasting effect and can be traumatic in unseen and unpredictable ways throughout the life time of a boy who suffers that sort of abuse.
not only that, sexuality in males is glorified while it is the opposite for women. what man is going to claim to have been traumatized by that? our cultural attitides don't allow it. so he suffers the abuse and then the guilt about feeling abused.
this issue is huge, too big to be summed up so tritely i'm afraid.
Sep 14 2006, 01:10 PM
"not scarred by things like this, if anything, they love it"
wow. Really Katie?
Um, are you saying that male survivors of sexual assault were asking for it?
What if it was an older *not* hot teacher?
What if the assailant had been male?
What if a 14year old boy who had homoerotic fantasies was in a sexual relationship with a male teacher?
Sep 14 2006, 01:29 PM
sexual assault and agreeing to be involved in a sexual relationship are two different things. and i think you knew i meant that. honestly it pisses me off that you would think i thought anyone asked for sexual assault.
i am saying that 13 is not far from 14. and frankly i know many boys who lost their virginity at ages 13 and 14.
i agree with pepper that society looks at male sexuality differently, which is why it affects them differently. personally, i dont think it is the same for men as it would be for women in the same situation (and i am not talking about any other situation).
also, if you have two boys who agreed to it as opposed to a girl who was coerced into it as the situation so often seems, then i think making a choice makes a huge difference.
personally, while i think its young, i do believe both men and women can have sexual experiences at these ages and inot be scarred. how else would you explain the fact that mary kay's "victim" chose to marry her years down the road?
i think its gross and weird like i said before, but i absolutely do not think its the same situation as it would be with a girl. and consent has everything to do with it.
that being said, we will never know all the details. and i agree with pepper that it can have unforeseen affects, but i think it may be a mistake to label a twenty something year old going after a 14 year old "molestation" in every circumstance would be a mistake. men or woman, girl or boy.
pepper just a question. wouldnt having that experience make your ex feel like he was only a sex object? i find it interesting it went the other way. who knows.
Sep 14 2006, 01:44 PM
I had heard about the story, and just watched a couple of minutes of the interview and she just came across as totally clueless and seemed to be more sorry that she got caught, rather than sorry that she did it. When I flipped back later in the hour, I couldn't believe they were still interviewing her- she seemed to have the IQ of patio furniture and how they got an hour-long interview from her is beyond me.
I had a male acquaintence (I went to my sr. prom with him, after meeting him a month earlier on the internet, but we were just friends) who had been raped- he was at a party, got pretty loaded on drugs and alcohol and passed out. He came to briefly and some girl was on top of him, then he passed out again. He never even knew who she was or what she did to him. It was definitely damaging to him, and I don't think that male sexual assault is taken seriously enough, whether it's child/adult molestation or incest, child/child assault/"playing", situations like the teacher/student stuff where it's somewhat concensual (sp?) but it's really the adult taking advantage of the child.
The MaryKay LeTourneau thing- I guess after all these years, now that he's an adult and they have what would be a normal relationship (if it hadn't started when he was 11 or 12), I think I'm a little more forgiving. I think when it initially happened, people were saying, "there's no way they could be in love- she was just a predator"...I'm not saying that she wasn't, and she definitely should have been punished (maybe moreso than she was), and I'm sure the kid's messed up, but at this point, they're both adults, and from what I've seen they're in love, and he seems to be okay. I'm SURE there's some dysfunction, but what can you do?
I had a teacher in high school whose wife was a good 10-15 years younger than he was and they'd been married for several years. I came to find out that she was one of his former students. i think they met when she was 17 or 18, a junior or senior, and they got along, strictly as friends, stayed in touch when she went off to college and when she graduated, they ended up dating and getting married. So I don't think teacher/student relationships are never genuine, but obviously the LeTourneau thing was extreme.
Sep 14 2006, 01:53 PM
yeah it probably is taken too lightly bc men arent supposed to show any sort of discomfort with getting laid, no matter who its from.
i do know however there were a few teachers i would have gladly jumped into bed with when i was 14 or 15. since i feel as though my feelings were justified then, i dont think i can definitively say no one elses are either. it always irked me when people said "you dont know WHAT you want you are so young". yeah well, its still my choice.
that lafave woman is just a moron. i would just like to see what the boys have to say about it.
Sep 14 2006, 02:05 PM
I don't think male sexual assault or rape is treated with the same level of seriousness (except if it was man on man) and that is shocking. Woman can be just as manipulative and pose as threats as men can.
I remember a conversation I had with work people last week about a female teamleader (24) who was texting a male member of her team (21) things such as "I wish I wasn't your boss because this is what I would do to you" and described it in lurid detail. I called it sexual harrassment and one of the boys I was with said it can't be if it's a woman, I brought up the film Disclosure and he said that wasn't sexual harrassment eaither as it was Demi Moore and who wouldn't? Boys.
When I was 17 a male teacher got in a lot of trouble for "inappropriate conduct" towards me. He should not have taken advantage but I will admit that I wasn't innocent, I was a seventeen year old girl who was playing games, not realising how serious they were.
Sep 14 2006, 02:10 PM
well thats the point bunnyb. its only sexual harassment if it makes the other person feel uncomfortable. thats actually the definition. its not if whether you think its appropriate or not, its whether the recipient does.
also, i want to point out that women do not pose the same threat, simply bc a full grown man can defend himself against physical attacks coming from a woman (ie rape etc) whereas the opposite is not true.
Sep 14 2006, 02:11 PM
Sorry, Katie, I didn't mean to piss you off.
I don't live in the States, but where I live, if males or females are under the age of 16, they are under the age of consent. This is the case whether the minor or the sexual partner is male or female. So, if a 23 year old has a sexual relationship with a 14 year old, the 23yr old would be seen as the assailant, the 14 year old as unable to have been in a consensual relationship.
It's also seen as unethical/sackable/(illegal I think, but I have to run off and check) for a teacher/tutor to have a sexual relationship with a pupil of any age, as it's seen as an abuse of power.
I hope that that goes some ways to explain my terminology.
I just wonder if perhaps we do a disservice to male victims of sexual assault if we start from the point where we describe all men as "cocked and ready to fire". (I know those are most definately my words not yours Katie-I really am not trying to start a fight, and I'm really worried that I have already. I just feel really strongly about this)
ETA I spent so long editing my post that ya'll have moved on! Haven't caught up yet, but wanted to be sure you knew I'm not trying to be inflammatory.
Sep 14 2006, 02:13 PM
oh, I obviously missed the dictionary definition.
Sep 14 2006, 02:18 PM
Yeah, I'm thinking boys (and girls) want sex, but they don't want to have it with an adult. It should be someone of their own age. And if they make overtures to an adult, the adult should refuse, because difference in power - and the motivations and general mental state of the adult in that situation -- would end up being harmful on an emotional, sexual and social level, to the child later.
Teenagers can be foolish, that doesn't mean that adults should be allowed to take advantage of their foolishness.
Sep 14 2006, 02:24 PM
word wombat. I was foolish, if not precocious, but just because I realise -retrospectively- that I'm partly to blame does not mean that I was fully to blame, that it doesn't make it any less of an abuse of power. I still feel dirty and used and taken advantage of. That was the point I was trying to make: children are children, they are innocent and unknowing and don't know what they want until it's too late. An adult should know better.
Sep 14 2006, 02:28 PM
i overreacted butterfly. i am sorry. i do not think we should underestimate males who consciously say they have been sexually assaulted. not by any stretch of the imagination. i also dont put much stock in "legal" definitions of being able to consent, bc i think it does a disservice to 14 year olds who are perfectly capable of making decisions and i think it is informed by puritanical ideology.
i also think its unethical for a teacher to have a sexual relationship with a pupil, bc it is an asbuse of power. but it doesnt necessarily mean these boys viewed it as a horrible experience. furthermore, i think there is a good chance they thought it was a good one. (but agaibn, we dont know for sure).
i also think its entirely possible for a girl to make the same decision, although i think sometimes maybe we are more easily coerced into it? not really sure what i think about that.
i dont think all men are cocked and ready to fire, i do however think they are more likely to jump in the sack quickly with whomever. the fact remains in my view that unless a man is out cold from drugs or booze, its almost impossible for a full grown make to be raped by a female. a boy however is a different story obviously.
i mean there are far less male victims of sexual assault then females as well, not that that means we should ignore those that have had something horrible like that happen to them though.
this is such a tricky subject.
Sep 14 2006, 02:33 PM
of course you weren't at fault. He should have realized that you were exploring your adult self on an intellectual, artistic, and yes, sexual level, and that you needed to know that you were attractive and could be taken seriously in the world of adults that you were entering... but he should not have actually crossed the line on actual sexual or romantic behavior.
Sep 14 2006, 02:35 PM
i agree bunnyb with the even if its partly your fault, you are still the younger person in the equation.
but in terms of sexual harassment, if that boy didnt want those texts and it made him uncomfortable then yes it most certainly was. if he liked it, well then no it wasnt.
Sep 14 2006, 02:45 PM
Thanks Katie, I could feel that kind of panic like *shit* how do i explain myself without making this so,so much worse....
Sep 14 2006, 02:46 PM
I'm not sure how the receiver felt, I imagine flattered because it's a good looking, sexually confident, girl in a position of authority who is paying him attention. I get now that abuse of power and sexual harrassment are different things, I should have realised that earlier.
o/t slightly: has anyone read David Mamet's play Oleanna? V. interesting on power-conflict between teacher and student (college).
Sep 14 2006, 02:59 PM
An adult having sex with a child is an ASSAULT. P E R I O D.
If this was a male teacher, he would be in the slammer and deemed a rapist, even IF his victim was willing.
These women are preying on a childs' emotions.
Sorry Katie, I think your attitude is pretty antiquated and sexist.
Sep 14 2006, 03:10 PM
so what if its a 20 year old and a 15 year old? where do you draw the line? thats my only point. a 14 year old and a 16 year old? cause i know i dated someone who was 20 when i was 15 and i certainly wouldnt consider myself "assaulted". i think its rather ridiculous to assume people that age dont have any idea what they think and feel. i find that horribly dsmissive of someones ability to reason at any age. as someone who is 24 and remembers being this age and what one was capable of thinking and feeling at that moment, i think your view is rather condescending.
what if she wasnt a teacher?
i dont necessarily agree with throwing a guy in the slammer either depending on how large the age gap is.
personally, nothing is that black and white. the real problem i see is the power deferential btw teacher and student.
yeah bunnyb i know what you are saying though, and as someone who has had a personal experience with it, i totally can see how your point of view would change bc of that, which makes sense. for whatever reason, and maybe its bc of how women are stereotyped as using sex to get ahead in the workplace or whatever, men arent as threatened by it in a professional setting. it makes me uncomfortable bc of how far we have to go in terms of achieving equality, and lets face it, men in society by and large are not objectified, while women are. so perhaps when they are, it becomes a change of pace for them and the like being pursued by a woman in power. who knows.
am i making sense? most likely not. ha.
Sep 14 2006, 03:38 PM
I'm not sure whose opinion this falls in line with (if anyone's), but I think there's a lot of gray area between being in A) a fully consensual sexual relationship, B) being in a consensual sexual relationship but regretting it later for one reason or another (i.e., a one night stand or maybe a longer term thing where you realize later it was unhealthy) and C) being in a relationship that may be consensual in the loosest terms, but is really one where someone's getting taken advantage of (i.e., a teacher and student past the age of consent, even college-age or older) and D) a completely unhealthy sexual relationship (i.e. a one time sexual assault, or a longer term abusive relationship where one partner knows it's unhealthy, knows it's not consensual, but either by force or circumstance, can't leave.)
I'm not sure what my point is, but I was thinking about this while I was reading the other replies, and would be interested in other's thoughts on this.
ETA: Has anyone else seen an interview with that "couple" where they met when the girl was 8 years old and the guy was 15 (or somewhere around that age), he was her older brother's friend; now, she's 15 or 16 and he's 23 and they've been dating since she was 13, he was 20? I think they either live together with his or her family and now they want her parents to authorize her to marry him. It's kinda twisted. I saw an interview with them and he said something like "I knew from when I was 15 and first met her that I loved her." Dude, she was 8!! I don't doubt that people with such an age difference can be in love, but I think it's pretty sick when the older person persues or goes along with it when the younger person is still a child. I mean, if he really loves her and has loved her since she was a kid, that's fine, but let her grow up innocently, without the knowledge of your feelings until she's at least 16. I just think that something that seems normal at 13 and continues on into late teenager-hood/adulthood isn't necessarily normal, but what do you do when you're 25 and have been living like this the whole time and want out? You've probably got a warped sense of relationships. It just creates a bad situation.
Sep 14 2006, 03:45 PM
I get your meaning polly; I think C is the gray area that this discussion most fits, moving towards D category as opposed to B.
Sep 14 2006, 03:45 PM
yeah thats my take on it. i think its all grey. even withint the grey area there is more grey. i mean can we rule out seduction of teacher by student, esp in college? i know there were a few profs i wanted to get my hands on, and although i didnt, i wouldnt have thought they were taking advantage of me.
and yes i totally agree with bunnyb on this one. although, it may move towards b at a later date. as in, they regret it later.
Sep 14 2006, 04:08 PM
"one of the effects is that I became sexualized from an early age, and also normalised to inappropriate behaviour. "
i think this is exactly what happened to my x and also to the boy who is now 20 and married to his abuser.
and i think it's what's happening to boys and girls in this culture at large.
"I began my consensual sexual life when I was 14, and absolutely loved it, don't regret it, don't feel that I was wrong to do it.
But I do now realise how vulnerable I was."
me too and looking back as an adult who has worked through those issues of being normalised to inappropriate behavior i can now say that i think it was say, way too young.
"i also dont put much stock in "legal" definitions of being able to consent, bc i think it does a disservice to 14 year olds who are perfectly capable of making decisions and i think it is informed by puritanical ideology."
i am the mother of a boy, i am also the (much) older sister of two girls and two boys and i do NOT agree with that at all. 14 year olds are (generally, i am sure there are a few exceptions, but generally this is true) nowhere near capable of making a decision about their sexuality. most of them are midway (if that) through puberty and actually insane with the hormones. i remember feeling just completely crazy at that stage (i am calling it kidult, on the verge of both). there are few experiences quite so intense and upheaving as puberty IMHO and i think that major life decisions are most possibly better made when not under such duress. sure, kidults are on their way to being perfectly capable of rational decision making, but they aren't quite there yet and that's what their parents, teachers, and other authority figures are there for. to help, to guide, to deter harm. even though i have been having sex since i was 14 i think it is too young.
Sep 14 2006, 04:26 PM
i began actually having intercourse 8 days after i turned 15 and i dont regret it at all. i think some are more capable then others to make decisions like this.
Sep 14 2006, 04:30 PM
i still think that a fifteen year old able to make mature, reasonable decisions about sexuality is the exception, not the norm.
Sep 14 2006, 04:32 PM
I recognise that 14 year olds (for example) may have varying degrees of experience and horniness, but I think a legal line does have to be drawn somewhere. An adult entering into a sexual relationship, of whatever degree, with a legal minor is abusing their power. If the adult is a teacher there is a significantly greater power imbalance involved. So yes, Lafave was wrong and so was Mary Kay Letourneau. Letourneau went on to marry the student and have children; so did Woody Allen with Soon-yi. I still think both situations arose and probably have damaging vestiges of an unacceptable abuse of power.
Then there's literature, where (I think) Dante fell in love with Beatrice when she was a child. And there's Oleanna, the play bunnyb noted, which explores a professor-student relationship where the student was legally an adult. In Oleanna, IMO, it's an abuse of power but not the same thing; damaging, sure, but not, perhaps, to her sexual development. (Given that it's fiction, but the same scenario still plays out IRL sometimes in universities despite tight legislation.)
However, just because there are precedents does not make this abuse of power ever less than abusive.
(I suspect I'm preaching to the choir here...)
Sep 14 2006, 04:40 PM
oh glad you've read Oleanna too, syb! There's also Petrarch's Laureen who was very young, Edgar Allan Poe's Virginia Clemm (Annabel Lee) and Humbert Humbert's Lolita. It seems as if muses are always younger/innocent children...
Sep 14 2006, 05:20 PM
I think it is very inappropriate for a 20 year old to date a 16 year old.
There is also medical research that the human brain is not fully developed until a persons' early twenties, so no, I do not think a 14 year old is capable of making wise decisions when it comes to adult situations. I beleive that a 14 year old may *think* they are capable, but as a parental figure, aunt, and older sister, I know better.
Also, an adult does *know* better.
I lost my virginity when I was 14 and did not do it again until I was almost 18, because I *knew* I was too young for that kind of intensity.
This woman raped this child, she knew what she was doing was wrong. She just didn't care.
Sep 14 2006, 05:25 PM
I'm not too informed about the Debra Lafave case but I did read that she was allegedly raped when she was 13, and had a few abusive relationships? Not that this defends what happened, but it does seem to be a classic case of the abused becoming the abuser. She needed to be in control.
Sep 14 2006, 05:27 PM
i read somewhere years ago that the incidence of cervical cancer is higher in women who started having sex before sexual maturity (around 18) as well.
teenagers tend to be careless about using protection, asking about sexual history and talking to their doctors about their own activities as well, not to mention being pushovers when it comes to being talked out of something they know they should do or into something they know they shouldn't do.
bunny, that would suggest to me that she was normalised to inappropriate behavoir herself. it certainly isn't an excuse but it might explain things a bit.
Sep 15 2006, 08:38 AM
At the end of the day, how a 14-year-old feels about the sexual situation is beside the point for me. I don't care if the 14-year-old signs a notarized sworn affidavit to the effect that he/she wanted it, loved it, doesn't regret it. I'm thinking about the adult who chose to have sex with a... what, an 8th grader? A freshman in high school? What's wrong with you? A 20, 23, 25-year-old should know better.
Sep 15 2006, 11:33 AM
i have to say- 100%- no teacher should EVER have a sexual relationship with a student. i don't care if the teacher is 20 and the student is 18 and a senior in high schoo. it's immoral, unethical, inappropriate, and abusive.
I feel sooo bad for boys who are sexually abused and assaulted-because that's all they hear-men can't be raped, boys liked it because it was the hot teacher/babysitter, boys are all so horny they're just happy to get laid, they don't \care who it is. Yeah, they fucking care. Male incest/sexual abuse/assault survivors have like, NO VOICE at all. they aren't allowed to call it rape, cause "everyone knows it's really hard to rape a guy." WHATEVER. Men and boys are raped everyday, and it's a real crime, and it's traumatizing to them, whether they show it in ways we're used to, or not. GRRRR.
When I was 14, I was IN LOVE/LUST with my sunday school teacher. he was so hot, rode a motorcycle and wore a leather jacket. he was there because he'd gotten into some trouble or something and had to make amends or some shit. we talked a bit, and i could tell he liked me, and i would've basically done anything, cause i was 14. luckily, he was a good enough person to recognize what was happening, and kinda backed off. i was hurt and confused, but later realized it was good that he protected me-he was the adult and he realized that. he was only 21, and i was 14, and yeah i was "mature" but i was a kid, and he was an adult. it would have been wrong. illegal, too.
and yeah, what kind of weirdo 20 year old+ wants to fuck a 14y.o.? that's the weird part. i mean, have you looked at a 14 y.o. boy lately? they are like, babies. so yeah, it's fucking sick when an adult goes after that. it's one thing to say "oh he's cute, but he's 15" it's another thing to "seduce" him. (we say seduction for males, grooming for females)
i don't like the double standard here. 14 y.o. boys are just as clueless as 14 y.o. girls.
Sep 15 2006, 01:21 PM
QUOTE(maddy29 @ Sep 15 2006, 01:50 PM)
i don't like the double standard here. 14 y.o. boys are just as clueless as 14 y.o. girls.
And that's *exactly* why there has to be a legal standard, even if on a case-by-case basis an individual 14 year old may have an absolutely terrific experience, even in retrospect, shagging their brains out with someone 50% older than they (which is what it would be if a 14 year old was fucking a 21 year old.) Why would you *want* to do someone so much younger and less experienced? Power over, control, for the thrill of it - or as a sort of altruistic thing, "I wanted her/his first experience to be with someone who knew what they were doing" (which you do hear from abusers pretty frequently) -- um, ew?
I thought Lafave had a really good point tho', toward the end (the only part I saw), when she said she thought she should be in jail, and that if she'd been a guy under the same exact circumstances, she *would* be in jail. I didn't see that part - why *didn't* she get jail time?
Sep 15 2006, 01:39 PM
I'm just going to ask this and ask it sincerely: if two reproductively able people are genuinely attracted to each other on a biochemical level we can agree that nature conspired it to happen so how can we say that it is necessarily and in all cases a bad thing that one of them is younger than the arbitrary age restrictions set in place by society?
Responses other than "what if your daughter so and so" are appreciated.
Sep 15 2006, 01:41 PM
(we say seduction for males, grooming for females)
Maddy,Vesica, I agree.
I guess I didn't express myself very well yesterday, and I haven't been able to stop thinking about it all day. So thanks for putting into words what I think.
(Pepper, I edited out some of my post before I realised you'd quoted some of it. I hope you don't think I was reacting to you negatively or anything)
Sep 15 2006, 01:54 PM
mr fj-i think the answer is in vesica's post- if you look just at a few individuals, ok maybe they are fine. But, as a society, do we want adults having sex with kids? I say no. I do agree that it's confusing as to where that line should be drawn. If 18 is an adult, than maybe once you are 18 you can have sex with whoever you want. Before that, have sex with people under 18.
What about a 15 year old girl and a 12 year old boy? 18 year old boy and 13 year old girl? 21 y.o. man and 13 y.o. boy?
Not sure what you mean about "nature conspired." I mean, people are attracted to each other all the time and don't act on it. Humans just have sexual feelings. What we act on is what matters. Not sure quite what you mean...
Sep 15 2006, 02:01 PM
By "nature conspired" I simply mean all those biochemically gooey feelings of intense and mutual sexual attraction we get and can't seem to do shit about once we get them. I'm not intelligent enough on the science of sexual attraction to have articulated it any more convincingly so I subbed "nature conspired" for what I'm incapable of describing.
I do think it's sort of silly to pretend that 15 minutes before the clock turns on your 18th birthday you lack the wisdom and maturity to make significant life decisions that you will suddenly possess 15 minutes later.
Sep 15 2006, 02:01 PM
mr fj, I think it's the 'genuinely' bit?
I think we gather positive/negative expereinces from all the people that we meet, fuck, love, and that hopefully we have fun along the way.
I wouldn't change anything that happened to me, because I love how my life is right now, and I love WHO I've turned out to be.
But it sure would've been easier if, at the age of 14, I'd known that I had more value than what was in my pants, and that I was allowed to say no. That that guy flirting with me wasn't interested in what was best for me, and that 'I' was meant to take care of me.
I don't feel all that comfortable personalizing this so much, but I don't know how else to say what I mean.
Sep 15 2006, 02:03 PM
I love how my life is right now, and I love you
Thank you Butterfly. Should I tell FJ or should we just keep this between us?
Sep 15 2006, 02:09 PM
tee hee-i'm telling fj!!!!! cheaterpants
yah, i agree about the whole 15 minutes thing. But, i felt that way about drinking too, voting, etc. i mean, there are lots of things you can't do when you're young- rent a car, drive, etc.
you may not be more mature 15 minutes later, but you'll be an adult, and responsible for your own choices,in a way that you aren't at 16 or 17.
i think the thing is, it's not so much about age, but about power, control, choices, safety, etc. I don't have a problem with teens having sex as long as they know they can say no, know how to say know, can accept being said no to, have safe sex, go the gyn, get tested, etc etc. And we can thank the damn right for kids NOT knowing/doing these things.
i personally think that all little girls (and boys) should be taught how to ferociously fight back against unwanted sexual advances. it's like, we think if we tell kids stuff liek that it'll scare them, so instead we leave them defenseless and totally unprepared for reality.
la la, i'm babbling now.
Sep 15 2006, 02:13 PM
How do ya'll think/type so quickly?
Yeah, I don't know about the science, and I agree about the definative time line (it was 16 for me, not 18), and I guess I was talking (originally in this thread) about the believe that "it's different for boys", which I guess you're much more qualified to answer.
I think there's a difference between getting it on with someone that's your peer, and someone who's "groomed" you into thinking that that's what you want. And knowing the difference isn't always going to be easy, so you try to legislate to protect the vulnerable.
Criminalizing a couple of kids that want to get their freak on? No.
Making sex dirty, shameful, "pure" or what have you? No
Just looking out for people who may not have the power to look after themselves.
QUOTE(mr_falljackets @ Sep 15 2006, 03:20 PM)
Thank you Butterfly. Should I tell FJ or should we just keep this between us?
oh man, I'm so sorry!
See, that's trying to keep up with you guys and your speed typing. When I'm a few martinis in.
Sep 15 2006, 02:15 PM
QUOTE(butterfly @ Sep 15 2006, 04:18 PM)
it sure would've been easier if, at the age of 14, I'd known that I had more value than what was in my pants, and that I was allowed to say no. That that guy flirting with me wasn't interested in what was best for me, and that 'I' was meant to take care of me.
Sep 15 2006, 02:18 PM
Thank you Vesica.
Sep 15 2006, 02:22 PM
"so you try to legislate to protect the vulnerable."
Eggggggxactly! Butterfly you so smaht!!!!!
and i agree with vesica-what you wrote is perfect!!!
Sep 15 2006, 02:33 PM
*spreads the love around!*
Sep 15 2006, 02:33 PM
'Society' dictates a lot of things I don't agree with, don't subscribe to and don't practice. Furthermore, judging sexual development by age is arbitrary at best. The flipside is allowing 'nature' to always take its course, which can be damaging, sometimes irreparably so. I have certainly been attracted to people in various situations but chose not to act on it as the consequences would be too damaging. Or in the past I have acted on it and the consequences were damaging.
Everyone deals with natural attraction differently within the context of their own lives. I think generally it's a balancing act between attraction and desire and other responsibilities, whatever they may be. Everyone decides on their own balancing act and the criteria for that, of course.
I don't have a lot of faith in the legal system's ability to deliver pure justice. That said, boundaries must still be put in place for the protection of children, however able and canny and aware those children may be. If anything, legal restrictions will at least make minors think about who they are about to have sex with, and hopefully why. Protecting the vulnerable is exactly it.
Btw, I put both society and nature in quotes because their meanings are so wide-ranging that any one of us can have a different understanding of either... the quotes are there to indicate these are complex and contradictory concepts in themselves.
/been essay writing, hence hyperbole...
Sep 15 2006, 02:36 PM
ok, so clearly there is confusion around age, but are we in agreement that when there is a power differential (student/teacher) that it's wrong, no matter what the age is? (not counting past age 18 here).. or are people not so sure about that, too?
it is weird, considering how young girls used to be getting married and having babies, and now we consider that WAY too young to even have sex...