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I have to say pugs...I don't see anyone on this thread who sympathizes with him. In fact, I think we're all pretty much in agreement that he has to man up and give you what you deserve or risk what the two of you have had for so long.
after typing that last post i thought for a bit and wanted to say that mr. pugs is under a lot of pressure.

1) get get married
2) to be a good provider. his job has been slow and he's stressing over money. he also wants to change careers and go back to school. i'm sure he worries about how we are going to aford that and also it's been seven years since he's been in school.
3) to decide how he feels about children. we talk about that a lot too.
4) to help around the house especially since i'm working full time again
5) he never has time to himself and when he does i don't make him feel great about vegging out in front of the tv to play video games or signing up for bowling tournaments.
6) we don't have health insurance and both of us have been sick a lot and it's like $120 or more every time we go to the doctor.
7) we don't have a lot of time together because we are both so busy.

It can't be easy for him. He's made comments before that he feels like he should have all his ducks in a row before getting married. I think he just puts so much pressure on himself to do the right thing and be the best guy. he really is wonderful and I love him so much. I don't give him enough credit.

I guess if this relationship ends it will be my fault. He's a good guy and I want to see him happy. I'm just sorry I can't or don't.
Pugs, you are also putting a tremendous amount of pressure on yourself, as in if the relationship ends it's my fault.

a relationship takes the work of two people, if one person doesn't put in any effort, and the relationship falls apart, then it's the fault of both persons. granted, there is a time when you just stop caring...but I really don't think that's the case here.

I'll bet you dollars to donughts that this is a case of not only marriagte jitters, but like you said money problems. Could it that Mr Pugs wants to be financially sound before getting married? Finances are a huge amount of stress to anyone, not matter their relationship status.
CH - I don't doubt for a second that is part of the problem as well. But seriously, he has to understand that things are never going to be perfect. He won't be and i won't be and I think he's waiting for that moment to come and it never will. He's very oldfashioned when it comes to being a provider and that's one of the things I love about him but he's too hard on himself. He's only human and this isn't an easy world to live in. We will be okay because we have each other and that has always been good enough for us until the topic of marriage comes up. I just don't understand why this has to be such a battle. We are practically married now. I don't feel anything will change. We are pretty set in our ways. We have our routine. I am happy but he's not and I can't help but take that on to myself. What am I doing wrong? What can I do more or less of? How can I just make him smile again? Why can't I make him feel better just by holding him in my arms? That's always worked before. These problems are just deeper and more ingrained.

Our parents don't have healthy marriages. My mom and dad should be divorced and his parents ignore every problem they have. We on the other hand talk everything out and always communicate. We address problems right away and we both work to fix things. This is just different but I KNOW WE CAN CONQUER THIS TOO!
I cry bullshit, money always has something to do with things. No matter how small. It may not be a direct effect, but if he's stressed about money, then it's going to manifest itself in different ways, whether that be him being stressed out about this marriage business or him just being miserable in general.
Mr Pugs
As per LMP's request, I have visited, unfortunately, also have burned through my lunch hour catching up. I will reply when I get home tonight.

Thank you all for your input, and it's been a while since I've been on. Good to see some familiar faces.

Mr. Pugs
CH - yeah, that's what I meant. I think it's part of it. I think there are a lot of things on his mind is what I'm saying. Not just the fears that his marriage will end up like his friends. I mean it's money, me, work, the future...everything. I know how overwhelmed i feel. I have work, school, him, our home, my family, friends and our future. It's exhausting. He really hates his job which is a huge HUGE part of it all. I'm really trying to get fulltime someplace with benefits and get done school ASAP so I can take care of everything so he can go back to school for what he really wants to do. Life sucks girl.


yeah, money can be an issue, but WTF?! after 13 years you haven't figure it out? things don't go the way you plan. you don't get a guarantee. dunno. if money is what is holding you up, forget it. that's just silliness. there's no such thing as a "perfect" wedding, marriage, or time.

life is gonna throw shit, and hopefully you've got someone who is really in your corner, yelling duck when it's headed in your direction, or willing to take some of it for you.

this idea that money, schedule, work, or anything else will settle down for you is nuts. when has the world ever stopped for anyone? jfk gets shot, 9/11, tsunami hit, earthquakes strike, killer bees swarm but ain't none of that ever stopped a clock. sorry. after 13 years either you want to be with the person or you don't.

other people's marriages are bad? sorry. not an excuse. other people get food poisoning. does that mean you stop eating? no. you just check your food, make sure you aren't eating the same thing and go about your business. same here. if their marriages are bad, then you TALK to your SO, and you hash it out, you watch out for the things you don't like and clear the air. excuse my sports metaphor (i hate them but , well...) what you DON'T do is forfeit the game and refuse to play when everyone can see you are standing in the middle of the goddamn field holding the ball.

i don't doubt that mr.p might have a good excuse (i know there are a few), but i just haven't one that, if i was in pugs' position i would be like, ok, i feel you, what now?.
Wow wow WOW. There is so much wisdom in this thread. So much. I (as a single woman) have got to hang out in here more.

I don't really have much else to add that hasn't already been said by the wise Busties. I feel like anything else I say at this point is going to sound trite.
I guess if this relationship ends it will be my fault. He's a good guy and I want to see him happy. I'm just sorry I can't or don't.

No it's not. If the relationship ends it ended because you two decided you wanted different things. Why does there have to be a "fault?" You can both be good people with needs who end up going different ways.
QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Jan 14 2009, 10:42 AM) *
I just don't understand why this has to be such a battle. We are practically married now. I don't feel anything will change. We are pretty set in our ways. We have our routine. I am happy but he's not and I can't help but take that on to myself. What am I doing wrong? What can I do more or less of? How can I just make him smile again? Why can't I make him feel better just by holding him in my arms? That's always worked before. These problems are just deeper and more ingrained.

Pugs, just because you feel something, doesn't mean it's so. Just because you don't feel that anything will change, doesn't mean it won't change. Doesn't mean it hasn't already changed. Life goes forward, whether you want it to or not, it goes forward whether you fight it or not.

dude, I hate to pull the age card, but I'm 15 years older than you and I've had so much fucking heartbreak in my life, don't think I haven't gone through shit that is in some ways very much like shit you're going through - and then some - I've been there, and I've learned that what someone very wise said to me once is true: "nothing you do or don't do will make someone love you, or not love you" - time and time again this has been proven to me, and I've had a load of time and bullshit to see it in action.

I'm not passing any judgement at all on your relationship with this statement. I'm just pointing out that it's a sure path to your own pain when you take all the responsibility for someone else's happiness on your shoulders. You want input from people with experience, I'm giving it to you. I'm not expecting a response, and don't need to hear one. Take my input or fight my input for yourself.
Christ on a cracker. This shit is bananas.

Firstly, I want to kick that church lady in her vagina. It is so not cool to exploit a person in a delicate state. So not cool. It was reprehensible on all fronts & not very New Testament accepting Christian. I have no problem with Jesus, only with a select group of his people that pull that kind of holier than thou shit on others.

Anyways, it seems that whatever compromise is reached at this point, both of you are gonna resent the other for some reason. If you get married, Mr. is gonna be angry because he feels shotgunned. If you don't, LMP is gonna be angry because she feels that the marriage carrot was dangled for FOUR years & then yanked away just as the shot clock was running out.

Marriage has a fifty/fifty success rate. As far as I am concerned, them's pretty good odds that things will work out. Or not. I do NOT feel that it is inconceivable that you will keep on keeping on. But with all the drama, it could tank, too. Which would be a goddamned shame.

Unlike a lot of folks, I do not think that this is a failure to communicate. This couple have talked this into the fucking ground & have reached an impasse. Pugs knows that she wants their relationship to be recognized officially by their families, the state, & the Allmighty & she's expressed that. It is important to her to officially be Mrspugs even though she knows that she is already Mrspugs. Mrpugs has said (According to what I've read from Pugs.) that he essentially feels shotgunned into this & doesn't really know what he wants, which I believe. He is happy & comfortable with the current situation & would likely carry it on in perpetuity. As the adage goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

There is a lot of unfairness here on both sides. The Mr. needs to stop comparing the union to those around you both. Those people are responsible for their fucked up shit & have nothing to do with you as a unit. LMP, you need to chill a little bit. Yes, it was a dick move on his part to propose even though he wasn't keen on marriage. But it was also a dick move on LMPs part to know that he wasn't keen on it & try to force it upon him.

Look, it's clear to me that you love one another truly, madly, deeply. If you didn't, you both wouldn't have stuck around this long. You do not have a relationship of convenience. This isn't a "I'm too lazy to find somebody else so I'll stick around" thing. This is the real deal. The question here is are you willing to suck it up & get over yourselves to save it. Put all the marriage stuff aside to continue to nurture a relationship, that while not perfect, is SOLID. And could possibly lead to a marriage. It's been four years, what's six more months with some therapy?

In my mind, ya'll need to do some hard thinking. Pugs, are you willing to ditch the last thirteen years of your life over a piece of paper? I know it's more than that, that it's important to you to have your relationship recognized, but would it be the end of the world if it didn't happen? Could you eventually resign yourself to having a solid lifetime partner without having legal recognition? Mr. are you willing to to ditch the last thirteen years of your life over a piece of paper? You are already common law married for fuck's sake. You are both already 100% committed. You are a unit. After thirteen years, do you think that Pugs is suddenly gonna change shit up on you once she has a wedding ring on her finger & possibly your last name? I mean, shit is rote & routine by now. Is that part of the problem? Would doing the deed immediately damn you to couples hell?

I'm torn. While my gut says "Cancel the wedding", my heart says "They're're already married anyways, might as well make it official & work it the fuck out as marrieds". My brain says "Postpone, get thee to couples counseling & see if you can work this out with a referee instead of fighting amongst yourselves".

Oh, & the monies that have been spent, the contracts signed? Ain't shit compared to the cost both financially & emotionally as a divorce.
kittenb - it just seems to me to be a stupid reason to end a relationship. i mean we live together, we own a home, we are happy 90% of the time. we don't really fight except over chores occasionally. we think the same on money and sex. we have things we do together and we have things we do apart. i mean we are pretty compatible and have been for many years now. why throw all that away because you are closing the back door. the only thing we fight about is whether or not to get married. really at this point why not just get married? mr. pugs would say why get married? i guess to be honest it doesn't matter unless it's important to one person and it is to me. so why not do it? really why not? what is it going to hurt? it just seems to be stubborness.

what really confuses me is that mr. pugs says he thinks of us as married already, he's committed and doesn't believe in divorce. BUT then he turns around and says that he doesn't want to get married and that if we don't i'll be resentful and we should break up. then he says he's just being stupid and he's dealing with his fears in his own head and tells me to not cancel the wedding. i tell him to tell me the truth, that the ball is in his court and yet he still seems miserable about it. i just can't understand it all. i'm just confused. and really i'm just repeating myself over and over now. he's probably mad again and we'll probably fight when he gets home and we'll be back on the do we or don't we kick. it's exhausting.

does anyone here think it's possible that mr. pugs and i can get married in a month and be happy? i mean we are a different breed of couple then the standard couples in the world today. is it possible that we will defy statistics, get married and be happy?
Oh wait, I have something to say. When I was in therapy, there was a period of time where I would constantly say "I don't know" to my therapist when she'd ask me about something I didn't want to talk about. She'd push me and say, "But you do know. You do know. 'I don't know' is not an acceptable answer. " etc. I do think that therapy with the right professional could be a really transformative experience (the hard part is finding one you really and truly click with).
QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Jan 14 2009, 01:28 PM) *
does anyone here think it's possible that mr. pugs and i can get married in a month and be happy? i mean we are a different breed of couple then the standard couples in the world today. is it possible that we will defy statistics, get married and be happy?

we're giving you input pugs, our opinions. Food for thought for you. But as for the answers to those questions, I think you need to answer them on your own, or with the help of a therapist.

I see both sides of this why get married why not gett married thing. Through the eyes of the law, you are married, it's just not on paper. You enjoy all the same rights and obligations as a married couple. you two are married! Common law is the same, just without the pomp and circumstance. But, Pugs, you said marriage is more than signing a peice of paper. I'm not going to get in on this part of things because marriage means nothing to me, so I can't weigh in on this, and because I'm not at all religious, so I can't offer my perspective on that, although I do understand where you are coming from.

I think just about any couple can make things work and have their marriage last, provided they want to make it last. I believe that too many people, instead of trying, choose the easy easy way out. OR they are in such a rush to get married (or should I say, are in a rush to have the wedding, and NOT think about the marriage) that they choose Mr or Mrs right now. As cliche as it sounds, it is very true. They pick a person they've known 9 seconds and settle. I'm not saying this is going to happen to you and the mister at all. To me it sounds like you both just have a lot going on.

ETA: Just read zoya's response, and I agree.
QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Jan 14 2009, 07:28 PM) *
the only thing we fight about is whether or not to get married. really at this point why not just get married? mr. pugs would say why get married? i guess to be honest it doesn't matter unless it's important to one person and it is to me. so why not do it? really why not? what is it going to hurt? it just seems to be stubborness.

pugs, read back what you've written.

1. You only fight about whether or not to get married. Turn it on its head: if marriage wasn't impending, you wouldn't be fighting; you would presumably be happy and hardly fight at all.
2. Why not just get married? Why not just NOT get married?
3." i guess to be honest it doesn't matter unless it's important to one person and it is to me." Yet, it's important to him to maintain the status quo and not get married so why should he not get what he wants? really why not?
4. "what is it going to hurt?" perhaps you, him, your relationship, your finances, your friends, your family, your future...
5. "it just seems to be stubborness". Yes, it does but on your side as much as his.
QUOTE(auralpoison @ Jan 14 2009, 02:20 PM) *
LMP is gonna be angry because she feels that the marriage carrot was dangled for FOUR years & then yanked away just as the shot clock was running out.

sometimes i feel like this and other times i don't. when i'm caring and loving i worry that he's got a lot on his mind and he always had intentions of marrying me and now is just not the time for him. then when he starts with the I Don't Knows i get pissed and frustrated and i see the marriage carrot again.

He is happy & comfortable with the current situation & would likely carry it on in perpetuity. As the adage goes, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

yeah, i think this is how his brain works.

But it was also a dick move on LMPs part to know that he wasn't keen on it & try to force it upon him.

actually a little back story here for you. mr. pug's cousin got married in october. they had a huge catholic wedding. mr. pugs was best man and hated every second of it. after the wedding he made a comment that he wanted something short and sweet. at this moment we had a wedding date of 10/10/09 set. when we agreed that we didn't want the big wedding he said, "Well I guess we can move the date up then uh?" Well as you can imagine i was thrilled. I pulled out a calender and he suggested February 28th. HE SUGGESTED IT!!

This isn't a "I'm too lazy to find somebody else so I'll stick around" thing.

Sometimes i think, he thinks, i feel this way and it's ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE.

It's been four years, what's six more months with some therapy?

Because we don't have the money for that. Actually we have the money but he won't want to spend it on therapy.

Pugs, are you willing to ditch the last thirteen years of your life over a piece of paper?

no but if he won't do this for me, that he knows is really important to me, what else am i going to have to pass on to appease him?

my heart says "They're're already married anyways, might as well make it official & work it the fuck out as marrieds".

This is how i feel but with out the "work it the fuck out as marrieds" because I don't think there is anything to work out. I think once we are married the monkey will be off his back and everything will be fine as far as the "getting married" part goes. Really we don't have anything else we don't get along on. Money is always an issue because there isn't a lot of it but we are both working, making money, paying bills and just fine.

I know I'm coming into this late, and LMP and I haven't had a lot of direct communication in the past though I have read lot of her posts...but I have been on all sides of this situation, so I thought I would offer up some of my experince.
First, I met my first husband when I was 15. We got married right out of high school and things were fine for a while. ok..actually they sucked a lot of the time, but we were together over a decade and it felt really shitty when I finally left to have wasted so many years of my life. But the point I was going to make in bringing him up at all, was that Once we reached a certain age, about how old you and Mr. Pugs are, we woke up one day and realized we had grown in totally opposite directions. I'm not saying that is what happened here, but others have suggested that you guys are in 2 different places right now. And as much as you love each other, there is a lot of personal growth that happens between the ages of 25 and 30, and what you wanted when you were in your early 20's often changes. I still felt "love" for my ex until things went really south(but that's another thread) but we had reached a point in our lives where we wanted really different things and neither had the guts to own up to it until there was no way top salvage it.
After him, I dated someone else for 2 years. I was madly in love with him! I willing to forego having more children and we were of 2 different faiths, big age difference, but none of that mattered and I really wanted to be with him. But we got into the situation you are in. He wanted me to move in, and I needed a more permanent committment. We talked about it until we were blue in the face. It was almost exactly what you are describing. I needed the committment...and he was scared and hesitant...and when asked what he wanted he would come back with I Don't Know. SO he gave himself an ultimatum...that he would make up his mind, or let me go....and when the day came, he was still saying, I don't know. I stuck around a few more month, but I was totally miserable. I finally realized how important it was to me and that I couldn't compromise on it. And so I left him. But in reality I really didn't need to get married...I just needed him to make the committment emotionally even if he wasn't anywhere near ready to make it legally.
During the time between the ultimatum and me leaving, I met Mr. Pixie. And the thing that attracted me to him the most was that we both wanted the exact same things! We got married and everythign has been really great.
So I guess what i am trying to say is, if this is something that means as much to you as it did me, you may have to walk away and find happiness elsewhere. Because everyone deserves to be happy. But it really is going to have to be a decision that you make. I knew in my heart of hearts that I couldn't go on without more committment than I was feeling from him.
Can you still get married in a month and be happy...absolutely. But it means you and the Mr. need to get your collective shit together and work things out. One thing I've noticed is that it is harder to say things in person. Perhaps you two should write each other some very heartfelt soul searchign letters and pour out your thoughts and them and then read them in other rooms so you have time to digest the entire contents before you discuss them.
ETA: I know male minds don't work teh way our do and his "I Don't Know" probably does mean he's workign things out in his head, but he needs to rrealize a big part of being married means working things out with teh help of your partner! I have to remind Mr. pixie of that one daily!

I just caught up to this now, and I don't have anything new and innovative to say here, but, I think me and you have a lot in common pugs, and there is only one piece of advice that I think you should really take that a lot of busties have said here and that is to see a therapist. I think you guys should go together so you can sit down and really listen to what each other is feeling right now, so you can make a decision about what is right for both of you. If you have a mediator, it is tougher to get in a screaming match, you are in a safe spot where you can talk, take turns and actually listen to each other. If you can't afford one, maybe sit down with a member of your church you trust. I'm not religious at all so I don't know the details of it, but doesn't the priest usually do some sort of marriage counseling before the marriage anyhow? It shouldn't be too much to ask.

I can't say I agree or disagree to you getting married, but what I can say is that you and Mr. Pugs are both hurting right now and you both feel like you aren't being heard and respected for your wishes/ intentions.

I would feel the same way you do if I was put in your situation. If you really want to get married and he is putting it off, you have every right to feel hurt/rejected (without having unnecessary self esteem issues) when it seems he doesn't want to commit. But what you know deep down is that Mr. Pugs DOES love you, he DOES want to be with you, but he probably feels like he isn't being heard and maybe talking with a third party will help you guys tremendously.
also way late, and I'm certainly no authority on marriage or anything.

As for the therapy, Pugs, I believe you have mentioned that you are a student. Most universities have a women's center or a counseling center that offers a certain amount of free therapy for students. I'm not saying that you should go to therapy because something is "wrong with you", but just to help you sound things out with an objective third party face to face without any repercussions.

I know this will not be a popular opinion on this board, but in certain cultures marriage means far more than a slip of paper. In my personal culture (the South) it is usually the goal of any woman in a serious relationship to get married. By marrying her, her man is publicly giving a declaration of his devotion and respect for her, as well as his commitment to be around tomorrow. I know that the Pugs have been together for many years, but as it stands right now, she has no guarantee that he won't walk out someday, and vice-versa.

It may be outdated and unfeminist of me, but I truly do believe that in a ltr like this where the couple has been engaged by the choice of both partners, if the man respects and truly loves the woman he will marry her.
She should not have to settle for being "just" his girlfriend or fiancee for the rest of their lives. There is a huge difference between a wife and a girlfriend, both in self-image and social status.

I also feel that if the man does not want to get married, he should not propose. An engagement is not a substitute for a wedding, it is a statement of intention to wed.
If the problem is the timing of the wedding, that can be changed; but when a man tells his fiancee that he doesn't want to get married, he is essentially admitting that his proposal was a lie.

I really don't have any advice for the Pugs, and I hope that everything turns out for the best, no matter what you decide to do.

QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Jan 14 2009, 08:12 PM) *
Actually we have the money but he won't want to spend it on therapy.

Would either of you prefer to spend the money on divorce instead? This statement shocked me. So many of us have suggested therapy; we're not saying it for the sake of it, we really think you need relationship counselling for the good of your relationship and your emotional well-being. I know that I would do anything and pay any price to save my relationship.
On the counselling bit, I recently went to counselling and I know a number of busties are either in or ahve previously gone to counselling/therapy, whatever. And I'm sure we can all vouch for the help it can offer. I know I can.
I want to state clearly & plainly that I recognize that marriage for many people is more than a piece of paper. I acknowledged that in my initial post.

Ah, the "I don't knows". Absolutely maddening, yet it is usually legit. He genuinely doesn't know what the fuck he wants & rather than disappoint you or piss you off, he's telling you the truth. Likely, in his brain things are fine as is, why risk fucking it all up with pomp & circumstance? BUT he made a commitment four years ago (With misgivings, obviously) & is now reneging. Which is bullshit. Did he think you were going to be happily engaged forever?

Men are HIGHLY resistant to change, LMP. Whether he suggested moving up the date or not, he has had misgivings for a long time about marriage & is still having them. From personal experience, they'd rather throw the grand dame of hissy fits than feel like they are being changed. They're all still little boys at heart.

This leaves you both in a headfucked lurch. If he's willing to invest thirteen years of his life in this relationship, but not willing to put ducats towards counseling to keep it going? DTMFA. IT'S JUST THAT IMPORTANT.
Mr. Pugs and I went to couseling years ago. It helped. I'm not against it.

QUOTE(bunnyb @ Jan 14 2009, 03:47 PM) *
I know that I would do anything and pay any price to save my relationship.

I would as well. I've suggested it to him. I even pulled the name and number of the lady we saw years ago. Sometimes I think he doesn't even want to try.
QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Jan 14 2009, 03:00 PM) *
Sometimes I think he doesn't even want to try.

That might be your answer right there. It takes 2 people to make a relationship work, whether you are married or not.
(((((LMP))))) (((((Mr.)))))

Going through relationship drama myself right now where things are up in the air, I sympathize wholeheartedly.

In the end, you both have to do what's best for you. If that means chalking things up as a learning experience then so be it. If it leads to making things work, then cheers to you.

Methinks we should let this rest for a bit until we hear from the Mr. tonight & get his perspective.
2x post
i don't see why the question is WHY get married? the way i see it, pugs has done the not married thing for years-- in essence mr. has had his way for atleast 10 of that. so why doesn't pugs het her way? why does she have to be the one who caves? she was clear about what she wanted. there was no equivication. if mr didn't want it, he had ample time to call it quits.

and i don't agree with you aural re: changing things for all the "pomp and circomstance." there is none of that. pugs said it's a private ceremony in front of the fireplace if i remember right. i'm willing to bet this was mr.'s idea and another thing pugs has had to cave on-- and the mr is STILL not sure. she's said she feels like she is always the one to have to bend. i think on this, it's time for the mr. to bend.

that said, you'd pay any price to save your relationship? really? does anyone really feel that way? sorry, but for me, even my best relationship, which i thought was pretty fantastic, i wouldn't sacrifice my code of ethics, fucked up as it is, i wouldn't sacrifice my friends or family, i wouldn't sacrifice who i am, or what i believe.... in a lot of ways i'm a die hard romantic but love at any costs? really? you'd give up your career, your family on someone elses say so?

fuck that noise.
(((LMP))) (((Mr.Pugs)))

Well as a long time lurker I feel like I know so many of you already (although I know that there is always so much more to learn than what gets posted on these boards).

LMP I feel for you and I can completely see how you would feel heartbroken given the situation. Thirteen years is a very very long time to wait and four years wearing a ring on your finger which represents a promise to marry one day probably feels even longer!

That said, I see that you have two options. 1. Give an ultimatum and be willing to leave if you do not get what you want or 2. Stay in the relationship with Mr. Pugs and be willing to be his loving, committed, life long partner, but not his wife. I DO NOT think that you have the right to pressure someone into marriage or force them down the aisle and then hope for the best. When the minister asks the question 'do both of you come here and enter into this marriage willingly,' how will you feel if you know that Mr. Pugs is lying on what is supposed to be the best day of you lives together? Will you be able to say that you really do love Mr. Pugs unconditionally and promise to support him in all that he does and with all that he wants? Your wedding day will be an emotional day and even more so if one of you has to lie just to get through it. I think the idea of sitting down and going through the vows together is valid and probably a good indicator of whether or not the two of you should go through with this.

Unlike the others, I'm not so sure that I am surprised that you are receiving a lot of 'I don't knows' on the topic of marriage, especially at this point in time Pugs. It seems as though Mr. Pugs is not in a position to really say what he wants or how he feels either because it gets dismissed (e.g. everything will be fine once we are married, he is just stubborn, he is not acting like a man and needs to 'man-up') or because he risks losing you. Perhaps if the pressure was off, the lines of communication would be more open and this relationship could become stronger, more secure, and more likely to lead to mutually wanting marriage in the future.

Others have already said it but as much as it is important for you to get married it is equally important to Mr. Pugs not to (even if he isn't saying it every time you ask).

I feel for both of you and am hoping for the best outcome possible!!!

No matter how lowkey things are, GT, it's still pomp & circumstance. Pugs detailed all the things that they'd already paid for, whether it's fourteen people in front of a fireplace or not. Venue, flowers, cake, food, custom made dress, etc. She went to five diff shops to find a good bra to wear under her dress that she's keeping underwraps until the big day. This is more than just two people standing in front of a JoP at City Hall. A small event, but an event nonetheless. And events cost money. She mentioned that one of the reasons they'd waited so long was because of their financials. The usage of the word "ceremony" isn't idle when it comes to marriage.

ETA: GT where you got that it was his idea to have a tiny wedding was caving is your own deal. If Pugs wanted something big, I'm pretty sure she'd have asserted herself & said so.
QUOTE(culturehandy @ Jan 14 2009, 01:34 PM) *
I see both sides of this why get married why not gett married thing. Through the eyes of the law, you are married, it's just not on paper. You enjoy all the same rights and obligations as a married couple. you two are married! Common law is the same, just without the pomp and circumstance. But, Pugs, you said marriage is more than signing a peice of paper.

In the grand scheme of this clusterfuck, it's a minor detail, but common law marriage isn't legal in the Pugs' state.

QUOTE(girltrouble @ Jan 14 2009, 09:53 PM) *

that said, you'd pay any price to save your relationship? really? does anyone really feel that way? sorry, but for me, even my best relationship, which i thought was pretty fantastic, i wouldn't sacrifice my code of ethics, fucked up as it is, i wouldn't sacrifice my friends or family, i wouldn't sacrifice who i am, or what i believe.... in a lot of ways i'm a die hard romantic but love at any costs? really? you'd give up your career, your family on someone elses say so?

fuck that noise.

Who are you speaking to there, gt? cos you were addressing ap to begin with but it was ME who wrote it (and pugs agreed) or are you just attacking everybody that has a different opinion from your own? If you actually read people's posts you may have had an idea who said it and, as you asked, I would do any fucking thing for my relationship, including NOT marrying my boy if it was something he didn't want. Of course I really feel that way, otherwise I wouldn't have written it. You do what you need to do; you don't walk away from a 13yr relationship because your partner doesn't DO SOMETHING HE DOESN"T WANT TO DO.

You are making this situation so much worse; your post before last piled more fucking pressure on a guy who is already in a quagmire of pressure and stress. Way to be supportive of both parties, gt. Your post before that was making an issue about something else that, funnily enough, I said when it is not the fucking issue being discussed. All you do is derail discussions and create flamewars. You thrive on drama and you instigate it where it has no right to be. You are a shit-stirrer, girltrouble, no more no less. Can you not see that everyone is addressing pugs here as the issue is about PUGS AND MR PUGS, not about every other bustie and the opinions they express that don't agree with yours; we're not engaging with everyone else because it's not a debate. Grow up; we're here trying to support pugs and offer her our honest opinions.

Oh, and look back, pugs AGREED WITH ME. She said she would do anything to save her relationship (except sacrifice marriage, it would seem).
3x post
2x post
BUNNY B: i don't think i was "attacking" anyone. you've been around long enough to know me on the attack, and that is not what i was doing. i just asking the question, really? anything? it's not that i hadn't read people's posts, contrary to what you might think (and while i sense some hostility, there, i'll not return it), i didn't think i needed to post an adress for every point i attempt to make. what's more, i am, and was when i posted it, aware that both you and pugs said that. so i was addressing (not attacking), both of you, and anyone else who would say that. you might mean that figuratively, but i question if you mean it literally.

and while i appreciate your snotty tone (and i do, i love when others are snotty just as much as when i am), i don't think you would abandon or not talk to your family and friends if you boy asked you to. if you would without question, then perhaps i need to read your posts more closely.

but back to the subject (although i do like your feistyness), it's much easier to say that you'd not walk away from a 13 year relationship, than actually putting up with it.

see, the thing that makes me say only two people know whats going on in a relationship are the two people in it, is because i know that it's not just the bulletpoint facts rattled off as we do here. sometimes it's the combined weight of all of the minutiae. that make things worth it or not worth it-- something that only pugs and the mr. can ascertain. it's the feeling that she's the one who always has to bend, who always has to give in. it's the feeling that she does all the leg work in the relationship while he coasts or any number of things. so while you may take the rosy view (and it is perfectly fine to do so), i'm the gadfly. i see things differently. contrary to how you view it, giving all for love isn't always the best thing. it isn't always worth it. somethings work in theory, not in practice. sometimes giving everything for love leaves you with nothing but a truck load of crow to eat. now i don't now if that is the case here. it's not for me to make that call. i'm just stating what i think. i've pm'd pugs and the mr. plenty before this. it's not like i've just read the posts a day ago and am spouting off. i think they are both pretty awesome with big hearts, but i really don't think this is something that pugs should have to bend on. *shrugs* i don't. if he didn't want to get married, then he should have been clear about that at the start and told her that that wasn't going to change. he should have communicated that and stuck to it. it's not FAIR, OR ETHICAL in my view, to do anything else. far as i know, pugs has been CLEAR, UPFRONT, COMMUNICATIVE AND ETHICAL about where she stood. start to finish, it feels like pugs has been playing by the mr's rules and now he wants to change them for no good reason. if he's got a good reason, then hey, my opinion (not that it matters one whit), would be subject to change. but as things stand... i think mr is in the wrong.

to me it is UNETHICAL to not to stick with what you believe or figure out some sort of happy medium that satisfies you AND YOUR PARTNER. particularly for that length of time. period. there is no, "give anything" in this. it is about having INTEGRITY, HEART, COMPASSION FOR YOUR PARTNER, AND ETHICS. to my mind it is not fair, cool or nice to continue a relationship if you have "hard limits" that are in conflict with your partner. it is your duty, if you care at all for the person you are dating to break it off if you know you cannot bend on somethings. it is the right thing to do.
on the one hand I am so down the with DTMFA

on the other hand I think they could get married and be happy. Because I believe in the power of love to transform. I have witnessed this. It is spectacular. It is not however easy. It will be an ordeal.

I wish you both the best.

I was 26 and my husband was 40 when we were married. ( the bonus to marrying an older man is that you are ALWAYS his hot young wife) HIs big concern prior to marriage was change. To him it was important that we remain open to it throughout our marriage. We have. We have our struggles it has not been perfect but I always say that the smartest thing I ever did was to marry this man.

I hope you both find the peace you are seeking. I also hope that it is within your relationship.
Mr Pugs
Ok. I apologize in advance, I'm usually not an emotional person, I like to run things over in my head and apply some logic to my decisions. I'm failing miserably this time. You all might want to get comfortable, as this is going to be some world class word vomit....

I see some familiar people on here, others I don't know. I don't know how much of our story is known, as I left the lounge months ago to give LMP a place to vent about me. The only reason I'm back is because she wanted me to see this and hopefully it would help.

I have issues. I understand and accept that. I proposed four years ago. There has been a lot of trials and bumps in the road since then. It's not like I proposed, we set a date four years ago, and I'm getting cold feet now. When I was catching up on all your posts, that was the feeling that I was getting. We've set and canceled dates due to unemployment, financial problems and other factors. As LMP said, when we met, I was 16 and she was 14. Naturally there will be an extended time line because of how young we were. A lot of things have changed since I proposed. We've both grown and changed. I don't look at marriage as the back door closing. I'm not looking to sneak out when something better comes along. I'm not looking for something better.

Before I get into my scrambled mess that is my thoughts, I would like to preface that I love her. I always have. We've been through all kinds of shit, and I've always been there for her. If anyone questions my love for her, feel free to pm me or try to call me on it. When she got let go from her job, I told her that I would put her through school, as long as it's what she wants to go for. I was ready to work two or three jobs to do it, and she's graduating in may. I'm committed. We bought a house together. Both names on the deed. I've always been faithful and supportive.

My mindset has always been if it isn't broke, don't fix it. It's not that I'm childish or hate change. It's that if you're happy, why roll the dice and possibly mess up what you have. I do see the other marrieds, and they don't seem to be happy. That is a part of my reasoning, but not one of the main issues. I feel like if I say "look at Joe, he's unhappy in his marriage." and then in the same conversation I say "I feel inadequate for you, you'd be happier with someone else", all she hears is about Joe's marriage. I have a hard time as it is expressing my feelings, then to add the frustration of not feeling like she's even listening makes me just want to give up.

I know the "I don't knows" are a silly, annoying thing to say, but it's the god's honest truth. Sometimes it's an I don't know how I feel, but sometimes its an I don't know how to express myself properly. It must be hard for her to deal with me sometimes.

I'm not happy right now. I believe I've been clear with that. She isn't the only reason. I'm currently working on cars, and it's killing me. Apparently, I missed in the brochure where they tell you the chemicals will kill your sense of smell, your hearing will go, and at the age of 28, you'll have trouble getting up because your knees and back are falling apart. I go up the steps, and my knees sound like rice krispies. I have to change professions. I can't do this much longer. When I realized my boss is the oldest tech I know at 46, and he's been trying like hell to get out of the bay, I knew I had to change. I figured the time would be before we have kids or any other obligations. When I told her about it, that when she was done school and had a good job, I'd like to go back and have her support me, she told me she didn't want to do it. We've talked about it since then, and she assures me that she meant that she's just scared of the responsibility, not that she doesn't want to support me, but the sheer honesty in her face when she first said it, is what I'm having trouble shaking.

I hate uncertainty. I understand there will always be uncertainty in life, but I don't like it when it happens. So I'm looking for a career change, including going back to school. Due to the economy, the work has slowed down. The shitty thing is an auto tech gets paid for the work he does. If there's no cars to be fixed, I'm not getting paid.

I'm old school. I feel like a failure if I'm not providing for my family. (I believe she's called me a provider) It's the god's honest truth. The problem is that my checks are getting smaller, and all I feel is pressure to make as much as I used to. It's not her, it's all me. I put this pressure on myself. I don't blame her for this at all, but it's stressing the shit out of me.

Another thing rattling around in my brain is the whole D/s thing. I know some of you know about this, that she found this (probably as a result of posting in here) and she absolutely loves it. The thing is, I liked it at first, but have slacked off. This had to confuse the shit out of her, and made her feel like a freak for liking what she does. Hindsight and all, I think I liked it because of the increase in her libido. It made me feel great that she wanted me all the time. I slacked off because it's not my thing. I feel bad hurting her, and feel unimaginative when it comes to that kind of thing. I guess I'm more vanilla than she is. It's not a bad thing that she likes what she likes, and I wish more than anything we could be on the same page. On the flip side, the side I can't get out of my head, is that she's giving up what she really likes because I'm not into it. I feel like a failure because of it. I can't give her what she wants/needs. Again, adding more pressure to my brain.

Then we have the church. I'm not baptist. I will never be baptist. I have strong beliefs that there needs to be a separation between spirituality and religion. She found this church and loves it. I see it. It fills a void I never could, and I love her for it. It's a hard pill for me to swallow though. She starts going to this church, and I used to go with her.

Then people start telling her that we should be married if we're living together. No real pressure, but they put the idea in her head. They start quoting Corinthians then, saying that people shouldn't be unequally yoked. Meaning that if she's saved, and I'm not, we shouldn't be together. She blames the nutbag for being the culprit, but I think they all think the same thing. The nutbag is just a recorder, she's not smart enough to come up with that on her own, and not smart enough to be subtle with her pressure.

It's tough, the woman I love, loves a religion that thinks I'm going to hell. I'm condemned, she's not, and we won't spend eternity together. I won't get preachy, but if the tables were turned, I'd tell them all to eat a big bag of dicks.

Then you have the other side. LMP talks to nutbag, I come home from work one day, and she tells me she's leaving me and taking the dogs to her mom's. 12 years of our relationship shot down from 6 weeks of church. I can't express enough how deep that cut was, I know it's not healed, and don't know if it ever will. I"m worried that the more she goes, the more she'll pressure me to be baptist. I don't want religion to be a wedge that gets driven between us. I don't want an ultimatum 15 years down the road. I also won't discourage her from the church, because I see how it makes her happy. I'm torn about it.

None of my doubt about getting married has anything to do with whether or not I love her. I do love her. A lot of my doubt has to do if there is someone out there that could make her happier than I could. Her happiness means the world to me. I don't think she's honest with me, or herself when she says she's sure I'm the one for her. I think deep down that there might be a rich, baptist, D/s loving man out there that she could be ecstatic with.

After my cousin's wedding, is when we set the date, and started planning. It was the end of october. We're getting married Feb 28th. Since all this is happening, all I can see is the countdown clock ticking, and I'm scrambling to get my ducks in a row. I have to decide on a career, if I want kids (she said it perfectly, about the effort it takes to not raise little hellions), if I'll make her happy for the rest of her life, or she'll decide that I'm not doing it for her. The thing that bothers me the most is that I'm not happy to be getting married. I don't know what it is exactly, but there's something in me that just doesn't want to do it. That is what's freaking me out the most. I'm honestly scared.

After 12 1/2 years, we can read each other pretty well, and I didn't want to tell her about any of this. I just wanted to "man up" and talk myself into it, but I wear my emotions on my sleeve. She saw right through me, and pressed until I told her I had cold feet. Match to dynamite. Now she's freaking out, which is making my mental situation worse. We've fought and fought about it. Things were said that shouldn't have been said, and can't be unsaid. She told me that she's starting to resent me for not marrying her by now, and every day it gets worse. She also told me that she's worried that the only way I'll get down the isle is if my best man and groomsman walk me down and get me drunk. She says it breaks her heart that I don't want to marry her. I've seen first hand what resentment can do to a relationship and am terrified of it. It seems like the only options are for me to go ahead and marry her and hopefully don't do any more damage to us in the meantime, or break up. I can't postpone the wedding, because of the resentment that will build as a result.

I've never felt so lost, and more of an asshole than I do now. I've never felt like such a failure.

Honestly, I'm looking for that "ah-ha" moment, and have been doing a lot of soul searching trying to find it, but am running out of time.

That's pretty much my take on it, so feel free to let me have it. I'll be checking back to see what you say, and will take everything to heart. I really could use the fresh perspective. (even if it's a DTMFA) lol.

Mr. Pugs
I've been lurking and I've sent LMP a pm.

Now that I've read Mr. Pugs side, just want to put my two very short cents in.

I think the wedding should be postponed.

I think LMP should move out for at least a couple of months.

I think LMP and Mr. Pugs should spend that time apart. And I mean really apart. Experience life without the other in it.

Then after a 3-4 weeks of not talking, not seeing each other, get yourselves to a therapist!

Good luck. I know it will work out for the best no matter what happens.
...actually, Mr. Pugs, you seem pretty fucking coherent and being honest about your feelings here, to me.

personally, from your post it sounds to me like you're being pretty realistic about what you're feeling inside. Of course, I'm not there, I can only go by what's written, but you sound like a good guy who truly loves someone and wants to see them happy, and are concerned with all the changes that you've both gone through (and of course you will in the time between 14/16 and 26/28 - HUGE CHANGES) that you aren't necessarily what she needs in order to truly be happy. I think that's perfectly reasonable. And perhaps she's not what you need to be truly happy. Just because you love someone, doesn't mean they're the right one. Perhaps she is. I can't answer that. but it does seem like this wedding business is clouding the real issues. and I do mean WEDDING. I don't see what the scramble is to have a wedding. Just because you don't want to marry someone NOW, doesn't mean you don't want to marry them EVER. As you said, a lot of things have changed since you proposed, and it sounds like you both need to re-evaluate where your lives are now, and see if you can reconcile it to things like marriage, kids, career, spirituality, etc.

I have no answer for you, but people grow and change, and sometimes you just aren't able to grow and change together. That's what happened with me and my ex. I loved him. I still think he's a great guy and have a lot of love for him. but 7 1/2 years in, we'd grown into different people from who we were in the early days, and we weren't able to reconcile that. Some people can and can keep moving forward. We couldn't, and we tried the best we could. It tore me up, and I was so so scared to move on, but four years on, down a long, difficult road, it's the best thing I ever did.

I'm not saying that's what you should do - by all means, try to work through things so you can go on together. You've had 13 years together, of course you should. But there's also no shame if you can't.

ETA: now that I've read geekchickknits' post, I'll say I agree with her. that shit is scary shit to do when you've been together so long, but damn is it valuable.
Mr. Pugs, I really appreciate your honesty. I keep thinking 13 years together: given your ages, that is approximately half your lives. That blows my mind. I hope both of you find the clarity you need to make a decision.
I'll say this: I apologize to the Pugs for my comment about being unengaged partners for 9 years. I didn't know you met at such a young age. I couldn't imagine dating anyone seriously at age 14 or 16 and staying with them for so many years. But I think that may be part of the issue you're having with each other. I view youthful dating as just that: dating. Meaning, you meet and get together with one person, think they're the bee's knees...and eventually your feelings change, or you meet someone who interests you more, or the person you're dating proves they're not the bee's knees... so you go home and cry, eat a box of chocolates or 10 cartons of french fries (depending on whether you're a sweet or salty comfort eater), tell all your friends what a jerk the person was... and eventually you meet someone else... wash, rinse, repeat.

Dating teaches you things about yourself, about other people, about what you're looking for in a partner. It helps you figure out whether you're into long-term relationships, open relationships, casual sex, monogamy, or dating several people at once without the relational commitment. Dating also introduces you to a wider variety of people which can only help increase your chances of finding the right partner for you, whatever it is you're looking for.

What I'm getting from Mr. Pugs' story is that you two met at a young age and have grown together very intimately. That's a pretty rare thing, in my experience. Most people I know who met at such a young age, and often older, tend to grow apart rather than grow together. I see it as a testament of your deep love for one another that you've continued to grow together as a couple. But what I'm also getting is that it doesn't sound like either of you have had much experience dating other people. And in my opinion, I believe that's an invaluable experience, psychologically speaking, for anyone to have. It's a 'rite of passage,' so to speak. And, as I wrote above, it helps you learn so many important things about yourself.

It sounds like from age 14 and 16 on, you've only known each other. And while that's worked well in one respect, as your love has grown and you've grown closer as a couple, it doesn't sound like you've completely grown as individuals. From what I've read here, it *definitely* sounds like you've both been working on it, with decisions to change careers, go back to school, discover new sexual proclivities, find the right church, etc. And it sounds like a lot of those decisions have been made with the other person in mind, as they should be when you're in a long term committed relationship. But I believe when you're a young adult in your early/mid-20s and you're working on individuating from your family, making your own place in the world, learning new things about yourself and what you want for your life, and making decisions to hopefully accomplish those things, it's best to make those decisions on your own, without necessarily having to consider anyone else's feelings or how your choices may affect anyone else's life.

Becoming a (relatively) psychologically healthy person who is well-rounded with varied interests, knows their strengths and weaknesses and is accepting and forgiving of both is an ongoing process. I'm not suggesting that one needs to have all their shit together, have no hang-ups or issues and know what they want to do for the rest of their lives before they get married. But I believe it's important to have made several solid steps on that journey before one agrees to the commitment of marriage, let alone a long-term relationship. And it sounds to me like you both need to take some of those steps on your own. I'd second geekchick's suggestion of individual therapy and spending some time apart. The chain is only as strong as its links.
I, too, think the Mr. is speaking pretty clearly. GCK has a good suggestion although it isn't an easy one. sad.gif
QUOTE(kittenb @ Jan 14 2009, 11:38 PM) *
I, too, think the Mr. is speaking pretty clearly. GCK has a good suggestion although it isn't an easy one. sad.gif

I agree as well. Thanks for posting mr. pugs.

And despite what you both are feeling, I think you are also both very strong for trying to face these issues even though it's obvious they scare the hell out of both of you.

((((mr. pugs)))) ((((LMP))))
the plot thickens - I felt my heart sink when I read Mr. Pugs heart goes out to both of you.

(((LMP & Mr.Pugs)))
(((the pugs)))

Mr Pugs, thanks for your honesty. I know it can't have been easy posting everything that's going on your head, especially as some posters have been hard on you and you probably feel ambushed. I think it will do you both good though to get those feelings out. What you wrote came over as comprehensive yet raw; you are both in so much pain and it shows.

I stand by what I've said until now: I think you both need to have some therapy (individually, perhaps, but I think couples' therapy would be incredibly beneficial as you both need to communicate and listen to one another). I also think still that the wedding should be postponed; it will create less resentment than an unhappy marriage/divorce.

I hope that what has been said in this thread over the last couple of days really helps you both, in whatever way makes you happy.

gt, some feistiness is good for the soul. I'm sorry for making it personal; I get a little sensitive if my relationship/what I would do for my relationship is questioned as I'm so private about it (yes, it was me who brought the personal into the conversation at hand in the first place).
I just don't know what else to say. I don't feel like when I talk to Mr. Pugs about this IRL that it's about getting married or not getting married. For him it's about staying together or not staying together. He said last night that I've given up too much for him. I couldn't disagree more. He is oldfashioned and tries to think for me all the time. He thinks HE knows what I want and what's important to me. I mean, he's smart and he knows alot and he knows me well but other times he's so off the map.

I'm am the kinda person who, if I find something that peeks my interest it consumes me. Most of my life when I'm consumed with something it's temporary. The only thing I've ever been consumed with that hasn't been temporary is MR. PUGS!! He's the only steady in my neurotic world.

Yes I like BDSM. I'm not ashamed of that. I like to watch BDSM porn. We've even dabbled in it a little IRL. However, and I wonder if I'm the only one like this, but sometimes you like to watch something but when you actually do it yourself it's not all it's cracked up to be. Yes, BDSM turns me on. I physically get turned on when I watch it but once I'm actually there, in the heat of the moment, most of the time I'm not that thrilled with it. I mean for me it still is pain whether it's sexual or not. When it comes to this I want to watch but I don't necessarily want to play. Mr. Pugs and I have a great sex life. All colds, sinus infections, bronchitis aside, when we are having sex I am 150% satisfied. I tell him this but he doesn't believe me.

As far as the church goes I am completely painted into a corner. Mr. Pugs doesn't want to hear this. He thinks that I say what I say just to keep him here and not because it's the truth. There he goes again thinking for me. I do like this church but for the wrong reasons. I like the people but I hate the way they think. I think they take things from The Bible and change them to fit their beliefs. We've discussed this. I got put in a new department at work. I work with four men that all go to the church. This church thinks that women are below men. They treat their women like that as well. All of the women are stay at home moms and none of them have careers. I do and whenever I try to discuss my goals in life to these bitches non of them understand or care and they all look atme like I'm brainwashed by the modern day feminists. Women have no place in this church other then to work in the nursery and change diapers. I hate that. This church thinks that if you haven't excepted Jesus Christ as your personal savior that you are going to hell. I hate that as well. I don't think it's fair that a murderer can say a prayer and get into heaven and yet Mr. Pug's mother who is one of the most selfless people I've ever met isn't because she didn't say that very same prayer. I've told Mr. Pugs that I want to leave this church. I do believe in God. I believe God sent me to this church to learn some things both good and bad. I think this church was one of those experiences people go through in order to grow like thirtysgirl said. I want to leave this church. I'm afraid. Seriously, I'm not exagerating. These people are quite fanatical. These peole will call, text and show up at my door. I'm afraid if I quit going to this church the guys I work with, who I report to will find a reason to fire me. If I loose my job then I can't help Mr. Pugs go back to school. If I can't help him go back to school he stays in his shitty job and he stays miserable and we fight more. Like I said, I'm painted into a corner. Mr. Pugs talks about how much I don't listen. Well he doesn't listen either. He only hears what he wants to hear. I've been crying out to him for help on how to get out of this mess I've mad with this church and all he thinks about is how it makes him feel. All I think about is how it makes him feel. I know this church is bad for me, for him and for us. I want to leave but I can't because I'm afraid I'll loose my job and wreck everything we've been working towards. There are no jobs right now in this economy. If I piss these people off and loose my job then Mr. Pugs and I are really fucked. I would love to tell this church to "GO EAT A BAG OF DICKS" but I'm afraid of loosing my job. But he doesn't here this. All he sees is, "Oh, she loves this church. It's the best thing for her. I can't make her happy. I should leave."

As far as him going back to school and me supporting him. I WANT TO DO THIS FOR HIM just like he did it for me. However, the numbers are much different reversed. Mr. Pugs made enough money to support both of us while I went back to school. He never even had to get a second job. My parents paid for my schooling. However, he wants to go to school for a degree that is going to cost probably twice as much as mine. His parents aren't paying for his and I don't make near the amount of money he did. That means that I will have to work two jobs. I'm already working fulltime and I'm exhausted at the end of the day. So that means he'll have to work while he goes to school and it will take him longer to finish. I feel bad about this. I want his college experience to be just as good as mine and it won't be if he has to work during it when I didn't. Am I making any sense? I never told him I didn't want to work and put him through college. Why wouldn't I? I'm just scared that we won't be able to do it and he'll resent me for it.

As far as feeling like a failure well that is something I'm doing wrong.


You are not a failure for fucks sake. Baby I love you. How can you be a failure? You put everything on the line so I could go back to school for something I really love. I'm graduating in four months. I'm in a very good job. I'm making good money. We are paying off our debt. We are getting married soon. We have a beautiful home, two great pups and we love each other so much. How is that failing? Most of these accomplishments are from us just following our hearts. We are so different from everyone we know. We've always done our own thing. We've never done what everyone else thinks is right and we've always been better for it in the end. You know me better then anyone else. I'm not saying these things just to get you to stay. I'm saying them because they are true. You will fail me if you leave me. I'll never be the same. I'll be so broken hearted. I feel like dying every time we talk about this. I feel like I'm failing because you feel like your failing. I don't want to break up. Your fears and worries are absolutely valid. I'm sorry for anything I've done wrong. I know we can get passed this. We can cancel the wedding. We can work on ourselves. We'll go see Gail again even if it means spending every penny we have to save us. All the girls on here, our friends and our families have great intentions by telling us their opinions and offering advice and I'm thankful for them. But we are a team and we haven't gotten this far by listening to what everyone else thinks is best for us. I know we can be happy again. I know you love me. I KNOW IT!! I love you and I won't resent you for not wanting to "hurt me" or telling me that I shouldn't be going to a church that thinks you are going to hell. I don't want to be hurt and I don't want to go back to that church. I don't know what to do about that. We can go to the church together and tell them I am leaving and not coming back. I don't care what they think. They can absolutely go eat a bag of dicks. I only care what you think. I've only ever cared what you think. Why won't you trust me on this? I don't lie to you. I'm not afraid of you going. I will survive. I will heal. But I don't want you to. I love you and I'm happy with our life exactly how it is. There is nothing else I can say. This public declaration of my love for you is all I can say. You have to make a decision. Can you put your fears and worries aside and trust me when I say I'm happy and I love you and I want to be with you always or can't you. If you can't you have to tell me. You have to tell me soon. I can't live on egg shells forever wondering if we are okay or not.

Thats all I can say. You either believe it or not.

(((pugs))) I think both of you pouring out your hearts here and the other reading will only help. You both needed to say these things and I think it will be therapeutic.
I agree with everyone else. The wedding needs to be postponed and you all need to go and talk to someone. From what Mr. Pugs is writing, he is not ready, there are underlying issues that are not just cold feet. And I firmly believe that going ahead with this wedding at the end of February would be a HUGE mistake,

as for the church element, Pugs, what about exploring unitarianism? Religion plays a large role in your life, but there are so many different branches of it, there is more for you to explore that still respects what YOU believe in and respects Mr. Pugs views as well.

You two have been together for a long time, you have both grown, a lot. but you have reached a fork in the road, and right now just isn't the time to be taking the marriage plunge. No one is going to resent you for your decisions, if you are adult enough to say hey, there are some things we to deal with before we do this, that is very very responsible and respectible.


um... can I just say that I'm really fucking concerned that the way this is playing out here is starting to sound like this forum is being used as a therapy session - I think that it's great that all of us have input and experiences to share, but pugs, your last post struck me as something you guys should be taking to a professional who can help mediate in the next step, not to an internet forum. Dude, pay the money and see a professional. We've all been begging you to. Because we care.

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