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I am not forcing him to marry me. I told him we don't have to get married now or ever but that it is important to me and that I know myself and that I will resent it someday if we don't. Why is it so important? Because it is. To me. Is it wrong to just find something important and want it in your life? Because I want to be his wife and not his girlfriend. I think that makes a relationship stronger. I told him if he wants to go then to go. If he wants to stay then stay. I want to get married. It's not a "special day" kinda thing. We are getting married in front of a fireplace and sitting down to eat with our parents and closest friends. Total it's 14 people including us. It's not a huge event. However, it's also not "just a piece of paper" IMO. It means something. It always has.

We were happy because we always agreed we'd get married someday. That was always the plan. We got engaged four years ago and just didn't have the money at the time. Now we do and ever since his best friend got married he's been against marriage. His best friend is a pussy who is totally under his wife's boot. They are the exact opposite of us.

Mr. Pugs is right when he says there are many ways this can turn out. 1) we get married and are happy 2) we get married and he resents me 3) we don't get married and I resent him and 4) we split up. Why is it so unbelievable that we will end up at #1 and not 2 or 3? Why is it so black and white? I don't understand that? Is it possible that he really is being a baby about nothing? That nothing will change and our love will grow? Is that not possible? I don't understand the doom and gloom way of thinking.

I compromise ALL THE TIME. When does it become one person is compromising all the time and the other person is just getting what they want?

We talk ALL THE TIME! We've talked this till we are blue in the face. It's to the point where we've decided to stop talking about it and just take the plunge.

I am not being selfish here. I don't ask for anything from him other then to be his wife. Why is that wrong? I'm a good woman to him and always have been. I just want his complete commitment and I don't see why he should always have a back door to run out of when he gets lazy and doesn't want to work at it. How is that fair?

Pugs (and anybody else reading), I stand behind everything zoya just said. I was biting my tongue and trying to be a bit of a fluffier bunny than usual (yeah saying that you're on the road to divorce is me being nice) but zoya posted everything I was thinking.

I think this will be good for you; I think that you need to hear the criticism and really hear it. Know that it's for your own good but also because we have big mouths and big opinions and can't sit idly by.

Marriage is not a band aid that can be plastered over the cracks in your relationship or the cracks in YOU. I too think therapy would be a good idea and I don't mean that disparagingly but because I'm concerned for your mental and emotional well-being.

zoya also touched on "church" and I know that you don't want to get into the stuff that's been going on in the last six months but we're not stupid, pugs. You disappeared after you joined your Church and some of us thought you'd gone and drank the kool-aid. I'm being entirely honest with you to see whether it gets through. Yes, I may be disrespectful of your life choices and beliefs and I apologise for any offense caused but I think that the [apparently] sudden leap into marriage is perhaps because the church is telling you that you and mr pugs shouldn't be living together without being married (you led me to believe that in your earlier religion posts). I may be entirely wrong...
i dunno. i know i'll probably be the gadfly, but i disagree with zoya, bunny, culture, and the rest. i think that you have every right to want, hell, demand the mr. marry you, pugs. he agreed that you guys would get married sometime down the road, he needs to man up, and stick with it. he didn't have to get engaged, but he did. but i think instead of putting up with his attitude, you should be the one looking for the back door. if he doesn't know that he can be committed to you after 13 years, then fuck him.

really. fuck. him.

that is a lot of your time and if he doesn't get it-- if he doesn't get YOU-- and what you are about, then i say leave his sorry ass. you should not be held responsible for your friend's marriage, or anyone elses, but he seems to think you are just a *stereotypical* woman, who will behave exactly the same as your friend's wife. which is stupid. i like mr pugs. i think he's got a good heart, but if he thinks that you are just some stock, generic woman, or you are like all the women he knows, then he hasn't been paying attention for the last decade or so. his problem is he's looking at what everyone else has, not what he has. he's not thinking of you. he's thinking of everyone but YOU. and perhaps he needs to be reminded of who YOU are, and if he doesn't think getting married to you is the deal of the century, after 13 years....

i know you, i know you aren't thinking this will solve all of your relationship problems-- you've said as much and i've pm'ed you enough to know that you are much too practical, and smart for that. you know these things are hard work and you are more than happy to do your share, but it's not fair to do most of the heavy lifting if your partner could decide one day he wants to leave. and that is fair. you just want to know that he is committed to you and what you have. and i think that is COMPLETELY REASONABLE. i do. you just want to know that he is serious about you, and after 13 years, call me crazy, but that is freaking scant little to ask for. honestly, i think the mr needs a foot up his ass.

i hate to tell anyone what to do in their relationship, cos my philosophy is that no matter how much you are told about a relationship there are only two people who really know what is going on-- the two people in it. that said, if it were me, and i was with someone for that long and they didn't have the stones to commit to me, i'd leave them. for me the cutting point is about 5 years. if you don't know if you love that person, then you never will, and you have an obligation to tell your partner you need to be on your own. it's just not fair to them to keep them around thinking that you will always be there if you are always looking out that back door.

...and you never get those years back. you never get that time back. this is your life, pugs, yours. and if someone can't see how absolutely fantastic you are, fuck 'em.
I am listening and I expected criticism. I'm not angry. I probably am defensive. All of Mr. Pugs friends are telling him to just do it. That he should have done it by now. That he's being silly and he's lucky I haven't left him by now. All of my friends tell me I talk to him about it too much. That he's working things out in his head and I should just let him be. People not in our close circle sort of all say what you all are saying. I don't think what you are saying is wrong I'm just listening and taking it all in. Please don't get angry at me. My goal is to be happy and I want him happy. I've told him that. It's the truth. I really want him to be happy. I mean that. But I also want to be married. Do all of you think it's inconceivable that he's just being a pussy about all this? Is it inconceivable that we get married and are happy? Why is that so impossible to imagine? Like I said before that just seems so doom and gloom to me.

I'm not ready to discuss the church aspect of all of this. I'm not going to deny that it's a factor but I'm just not ready to talk about it. It's not a matter of people telling me I'm living in sin or what not. Actually, my church considers Ryan and I married. They love him. There isn't any pressure from them for us to marry. I just feel almost like I've been lied to. That he proposed to keep me string me along. Now that I'm actually demanding that he follow through he's scared.

I know I sound selfish in all this but does anyone see my point on this at all? How not only is pressuring him not fair but to go my life not doing something that is important to me is also completely unfair? That my happiness should be second to his (IMO) unwarrented fears.
Um.. isn't being engaged a promise to get married? Mr Pugs shouldn't have proposed if he didn't want to get married - given that he did, it seems fair for LoveMyPugs to call him on it.
Pugs, we're not saying sacrifice your own happiness for his, to put his happiness first, but that what makes or will make you happy isn't the same thing; you want marriage, he doesn't.

persiflager, sometimes engagement is another status to a relationship, rather than "we're going to get married some day". I don't agree with it and it really pisses me off when people get engaged simply to say they have a fiance/fiancee but it happens and it could be the case here. Yes, I think that to propose to someone and then say, after another four years of their love and devotion, "actually I don't want to get married" is SHIT, but the fact remains that somebody shouldn't be forced into marriage if they don't want to (not necessarily by pugs but by the circumstances; the fact that the wedding plans are rolling on and they feel railroaded and pressured by the events themselves). Pugs isn't calling him on the fact that he wanted to get married (if that's why he was proposing) and now he doesn't; they are actually getting married next month and the groom has a major case of cold feet. I don't think it's unfair of us to assume that there's a bit of a situation there and that it isn't a fair situation for either of them.
bunnyb - his reasons are that he doesn't know anyone "happily married" but when you ask him what it means to be happily married he can't give you and answer. when you ask him who is unhappily married he talks about people who should never have been married in the first place. does that make sense? i think cold feet is natural but i agree that in his case it's major but it seems unwarrented. the only thing he is unhappy with ME about is that i want to get married and i'm not letting him off the hook. he is unhappy that all the other men in his life just cower like puppies when they are unhappy with their wives. i am absolutely not like this. if my man is not happy i want to know why and i want to fix it even if that means taking a deep look at myself. sometimes it doesn't seem like that goes the other way. to me it doesn't seem like he cares that marriage is important to me past, present and future. marriage didn't just suddenly become important to me. you can look back at my older posts. i know you want to blame the sudden interest in marrige on the church i joined but that is just not true. we've been debating mariage long before i joined this church. it really started when his best friend got married. he sees how unhappy he is and thinks that i am going to turn out like this guys wife is. but if you ask him to think back to before they got married she was the same bitch before they got married and he just stopped trying to stand up for himself after they got married. it's his fault for being a pussy in his marriage. mr. pugs is not like that. he wouldn't stand for being that unhappy and i wouldn't want him to be. i'm really trying to explain my point that he is comparing us to something that we would never become. am i beating a dead horse? i tend to do that when i think i have a valid point. i'm really just trying to discuss this with you because i do care what everyone thinks here. i really will cancel this wedding if i think it's anything other then him just basing us on his friends bad marriage. i don't want him to be unhappy. i'm a grown ass woman and i will be broken hearted if he leaves me but i will heal. i don't think he wants to leave. i don't think he is against marriage. i think he is just afraid of the what if's and maybe's.
Reading Pugs responses, I think that there is more to this situation, and I do think that we need to know what else went down in the past 6 months, including what went on with this church business. That is if we can give our honest opinion. We can't give our full opinion without knowing what the whole situation is.

I agree you do need to be happy, but your happiness should not be at the expense of someone else's happiness.

BUT I do also fully see where GT and Pers are coming from. Engagment is a promise to get married, but with that said, people can be just as happy staying engaged,

Pugs said that marriage was more than just a peice of paper and I fully respect that and I understand that. And yes, seeing other people unhappily married can have an affect on your opinion of marriage. That doesn't mean that your marriage will be the same, though.
I see what you mean bunnyb, and I'm sure it's much more complicated than I realise, but I agree with girltrouble. He proposed to LMP, they set a date together, and he's had 4 years to break the engagement if he was really opposed to marriage. Yes, it might not work out if they get married, but it doesn't sound like they can continue as they are. Also, IME not many relationships survive a cancelled wedding.

(Disclaimer: I first started lurking in the lounge a few months ago after a break-up, and read all the archives in 'The Mating Game'. I remember two things from the posts I read by Mr Pugs and LoveMyPugs - firstly, that Mr Pugs was really committed to LMP and used the word 'lifers', secondly that the marriage thing was a big issue and has been so for a while).

Love MyPugs, I apologise if it's inappropriate for me to be posting without knowing you well, but it sounded as if you wanted a broad spectrum of opinions.
I attended the church. I feel in love with it and jumped in with both feet. I went every service. Mr. Pugs went with me often. He liked it as well. He said he thought it was what church was supposed to be. They never pressured us to marry. They said our situation is unique. They did however encourage us to make it legal. Not that it was a sin to stay the way were were but to just finally make it legal and final. They said it would deepen our relationship. THIS IS EXACTLY HOW I FEEL, FELT AND WILL ALWAYS FEEL ABOUT MARRIAGE for Mr. Pugs and I. It's the next step. Mr. Pugs didn't really seem to disagree other then like I said, his fears about the what ifs in the future. What if I stop wanting to have sex? What if I start telling who he can see and can't see? What if I demand to be in control of all the finances? I mean just crazy shit that we have already worked out over the years and I'm sure will not change.

Well, as with all churches we have fanatics. We have this one girl who immediately befriended me. She took on the role of my rescuer as if I needed one. She invited me over to her house one day and basically Bible thumped me in to the idea that I was living in sin, that if I married Ryan who is a "non believer" that every day of my marriage would be a sin and God would turn his back on me. I was completely brainwashed in a matter of hours.

I went home. Already frustrated at the fact that Ryan was so reluctant to get married. Being new to this church and being the people pleaser I am I thought this woman was right. Her life seems perfect and mine seemed a mess in comparrison.

When Mr. Pugs got home I told him I was leaving him. I told him I knew he didn't want to marry me and wouldn't compromise on the fact and that I didn't want to continue down the path of dissapointment with him. He freaked. He cried. He screamed. I screamed and cried as well. He told me I was leaving him for the church. I told him I was leaving him because he wouldn't commit to me.

The next day I went to a service. My pastor caught me out in the parking lot along with the guy who originally invited me to the church and they wanted to know what was wrong. I guess the pain I was in was written all over my face. I told them what this woman had said to me and what I had done. They were furious. They spoke to her husband who then spoke to her. They told me nothing she said is true. They they don't want to see Ryan and I split up. That we are an anomolly and something special.

Well as you can imagine the damage with Mr. Pugs was already done and it was all my weak minded fault. I really fucked up. I've spent every day since trying to fix it. People from the church have come to the house and talked to us. They encourage us but the damage is done. Now along with his perhaps natural fears most guys experience with getting married he has this to deal with. I apologize all the time and beg him to forgive me for being so stupid and simple. I don't talk to the woman anymore. I even told him I'd leave the church. He told me he didn't want me to.

That's basically it. It's all my fault and now I'm paying for it. But that was back in August. I know it will take time for him to heal but now I feel like he's using this as another excuse to justify his other fears that are unwarrented.

Okay...let me have it

(i was just kidding with that last line...kinda)
*sticks head in*

I can see where everyone is coming from, really. Yes - being engaged is a promise to get married, and setting a date seems pretty serious about it, and it is possibly that mr pugs has a bad case of cold feet. Yes, he's had plenty of time to get out, but it's equally possible he's changed his mind over those four years, had a rethink, or might just not have quite realised what he was getting into. Pugs - have you told him that you feel being engaged was a promise to get married?

That said, major cold feet may be a symptom of something else, and I'm with zoya in that maybe you (and he, possibly together) might want to see a therapist. The church thing may have triggered it, may have made his fears worse. Sounds to me almost like a complete personality change in a matter of hours, which is what he's afraid of - that you're going to change. You did when you went to church (even though, and correct me if I'm wrong, you were already a believer) and you changed suddenly - maybe now he's thinking "but what if getting married does the same thing?" Honestly, I don't think you *are* going to change, and unfortunately the only way to prove it is to get married, but maybe, just maybe, you are steamrollering him a bit. He might need it.

Also - you said "legal and final". Now me being me, I'm immediately thinking - do you believe in a divorce? If it all goes tits-up, do you both have escape routes? It's a horrible way to think about marriage, but do you both know what would (leaving the emotional stuff aside) do if it wasn't working?
yeah, i'll let you have it all right... ((((((pugs)))))) i'm so sorry hon. and i'm so glad the church is backing you up on this and you both have people helping you through this. i wish i had some advice to offer, but i suck at the ltr. i really hope you and the mr. can work things out.
(((pugs))) you've had a shit time of it. Mr Pugs has had a shit time of it too. We are all here to support you in coming to terms with things but I don't think it's a sound basis for a marriage at the present time. You have issues that you both have to work out together and it's doable. I am not agreeing that his fears are unwarranted because they are his fears and should not be invalidated; even if you feel they are unfounded and he is blowing his friend's experience out of proportion, he is still scared. Fear is a valid emotion and is not something to be brushed under the carpet. I don't think he is using your experience as an excuse to justify his other fears; I think it is a valid reason in itself. He is scared about what happened to you, what it did to you and to him and he is scared about what it could potentially do to you as a couple and, as a married couple, that fear is even more valid because of the legal impetus marriage puts on a relationship.

You need therapy to work out your issues as a couple - couples therapy. I think the wedding should be postponed. My honest opinion is that just now is incredibly bad timing. It may be that he does want to get married further down the line (which is why he proposed in the first place) but that recent events have scared the fucking bejesus out of him. I can't blame him. I don't blame you either, pugs; I think you were naive and blinkered but it's happened and it's time to work through the situation and not think that marriage will heal it all by itself.

eta: I think that deep down you knew that there would be a resounding opinion against the wedding and that is perhaps why you came back to the lounge when you did.
bunnyb - I don't want to invalidate his fears but seriously, how long is a girl supposed to wait? what about the years before that where i didn't fuck up? what about the time i've put into to loving him and supporting him. what about my wants and needs? do they count? what if we postpone the wedding and he never gets comfortable with the idea? how long do i stay and wait? there will never be a good time for him and i'll stay because i love him so much. i'll end up dropping the marriage argument because i'll just want to be with him. don't i deserve to get what i want as well?

Ahhh, now this is where I was going, I knew there was more to the story. I agree with Bunny, right now is NOT the right time to get married, I think you two need to step back from this Demon that this wedding/marriage has become. I am also firmly with the other busties that therapy, counselling whatever independent of the church will help you two tremendsouly. I say independent of the church because, while they offer a huge support for you LMP, mr. Pugs might see them as being biased, and that in turn will sabatoge anything that help has to offer.

No one is saying you two don't have to get married, but you all need someone to talk to, someone who is not biased and independent, I think the mind set both of you are in right now is not one where you should be entering something so intense. Go to counselling, talk to someone, then when you are both happy and emotionally healthy THAT'S when you should enter a marriage. Marriage and weddings are supposed to be a happy time, are they stressful, yes, but relationship ending? HELLS NO!

ETA: You shouldn't have to wait forever, but nor should you push it. Right now isn't the time. This whole thing has taken on a life of it's own. It's the elephant in the room if you will.
NOT at the expense of his happiness. You deserve to be happy TOGETHER but this way one of you is going to be unhappy and it's not fair if it's you, it's not fair if it's him but somebody is going to be. I think you have to be the bigger person and see that you can't force him into something he is not happy with. I know it's unfair, it's always unfair when your partner wants something that you don't, or vice versa; it fucking sucks, in fact, but you have to suck it up. Pugs, he does not want to marry you; it may be a temporary thing and he may be ready at the end of this year or next but just now you cannot marry him if he doesn't want it. It's not fair on either of you; you love him too much to do that to him, don't you?

I'm not telling you to wait around - gt definitely isn't- but I am advising that you sit down with mr pugs and ask him straight what he wants and when he wants it. If he says never, then it's decision time.

We all deserve to get what we want but not at the expense of somebody else. I've repeated myself (and other people) because it has to sink in, pugs. By marrying mr pugs next month you are trapping him and it's no better than secretly getting pregnant. He wants to be with you, he loves you and has devoted his life to you but more commitment is something he is not ready to give at the moment. Whether he would have felt the same this time last year, who knows, but at the moment he cannot enter into marriage with you.

If he actually makes it to the end of the aisle and goes through with it, when he doesn't want to, and makes you guilty for it for the rest of your life together? then he's the pussy; standing up to you and telling you something you obviously don't want to hear and hurting you despite loving you, that's being a man. Our perceptions of this are completely opposite because I'm on the outside, completely unbiased.
my only point here is that the "I don't want to get married" rant of mr. pugs was there long before the church even came into the picture. that is my problem and no one seems to be on my side as far as that goes. i know the last six months have been hell on both of us and that i am to blame for the majority of it but had we already been married it wouldn't even have been an issue and his silly fears about his friend's marriage AND THEY ARE SILLY are the reason we weren't married in the first place. can no one understand me on this? he even admits it himself. he's put marriage off way too long and for no good reason. i'm hurt. i feel rejected. what? am i not good enough to marry? i give him all i have. is it not enough? what else do i have to do to be wife material. no wonder i lost my mind after i left that woman's house. it's not like mr. pugs is building me up as a good woman and fiance to him. that anything i do for him is ever appreciated, respected and honored. wtf? fuck therapy. i'm not justifying his bullshit anymore. i deserve this one thing. he needs to man up.
Pugs, I've been married for almost 4 years now, so I think I can speak with a little authority on this subject. And I totally completely 1000% agree with a lot of what the others have said. The words they speak are plain & I know it can seem harsh, but there is a HELL of a lot of love for YOU in everyone's posts. We love you and believe in you so much that we feel we can be honest with you. I hope that's coming across to you.

My feelings on this are ... well, it's complicated. I don't think it's my place to tell you what to do. This decision is far too big & even if I'd been your best friend for my whole life I probably wouldn't feel comfortable telling you who you should or shouldn't marry. All that being said, I hope I can offer a little bit of help.

Yes, marriage is about compromise. BUT actually getting married should not be about compromise. Both parties who are entering the marriage must want it. Plain and simple. Mr. Pugs is sending mixed signals about that. He asks you to marry him, then he says he doesn't want to get married. After many years of engagement you two finally set a date, but then he threatens to leave you. I'm sure he's wonderful in lots of ways, but that is a huge steaming pile of bullshit. And you don't deserve it. I don't care if you haven't been the perfect girlfriend. You still don't deserve it.

I know that this has never been about the wedding day alone, LMP. I know for you it has always been about having a genuine commitment from Mr. Pugs. I totally and completely understand that. And if I were in your shoes - dating and even living with the same person for 13-fucking-years and still hearing him say that he doesn't want to "commit" to me AFTER he has asked me to MARRY him 4 whole years ago - I'd be fucking furious. FURIOUS!!! I mean, what the hell is his problem? What have the last 13 years been about if they haven't been proof that you two can be happily committed to one another? It seems pretty clear to me that he has already made a commitment to you. I don't understand his hesitation either.

But no matter his reasons, it sounds like he has some very strong hesitations. This doesn't sound like the usual pre-marriage jitters. Personally, I think it's perfectly natural - even healthy - to feel nervous about getting married. The hour before Sheff & I were legally hitched, I got really sick to my stomach because I was so overwhelmed by the Enormity Of It All. But then I just looked at Sheff & remembered how much I love him & it was okay. Marriage With A Capital "M" scared me, but getting married to Sheff was something totally different - something I felt really good about.

Here's the one big thing I want you to do - preferably this week. I want you and Mr. Pugs to look at the vows that you are going to swear to on the wedding day. Really read them & let them soak in. Can you look in his eyes & say those vows with warmth in your heart & joy on your face? Can he do the same? Can he say those words to you & feel in his heart that it's the right thing to do? If one or both of you feel uncomfortable with the marriage vows, then you need to either (1) change the vows to something you can both agree to or, failing that, (2) call off the wedding. The vows are the one true thing about the wedding that is just about the two of you and nothing else. It is an expression of love, but it also lays out some of your expectations for your life together.

Please do that together. Give him a chance to speak from his heart about it. Hopefully it will shed some light on the situation.

ETA: You posted the story about that woman from your church while I was composing this. Let me digest that info for a bit & I'll see if I have anything else to offer.
QUOTE(bunnyb @ Jan 13 2009, 12:10 PM) *
I'm not telling you to wait around - gt definitely isn't- but I am advising that you sit down with mr pugs and ask him straight what he wants and when he wants it.

He always says, "I don't know."

What do I do with that? Tell me? I don't know if I want to marry YOU!! not i don't know if i want to ever get's i don't know if i want to marry YOU!! at least that's how it feels. it's heartbreaking ABSOLUTELY FUCKING HEARTBREAKING.
Based on my many hours of lurking LMP, I'll back you up - Mr Pugs position seemed to be basically the same at least a year ago, i.e. before the church incident. But I think everyone's advice still stands.
QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Jan 13 2009, 05:19 PM) *
He always says, "I don't know."

What do I do with that? Tell me? I don't know if I want to marry YOU!! not i don't know if i want to ever get's i don't know if i want to marry YOU!! at least that's how it feels. it's heartbreaking ABSOLUTELY FUCKING HEARTBREAKING.

You don't marry him. If he can't say that he wants to marry YOU then you can't marry him. Rose's idea is a good one: take your vows and if he can't say them he definitely doesn't mean them/isn't ready for that commitment. Can you marry somebody who can't fully commit to you, who doesn't feel it in his heart? would you want to? It's not fair, it is heartbreaking but it's wrong to marry him when you, him and your relationship are in this state.

I know you want the commitment, that you feel you deserve that commitment and it hasn't been fair stringing you along and keeping you waiting; it's cruel but he hasn't done it out of badness. I know you are impatient and frustrated but you can't make him do something he doesn't want to do (whether he wanted to do it four years ago or not); it's the bottom line, pugs, and where we may see your points and empathise with you we are not going to change our minds on that. It isn't fair to either of you to marry when you're not on the same page. You also don't need to be a wife to be validated, to prove your love for one another. You need to fix YOU.
bunnyb - you are right. what do i do? ask him straight out again? tell him i need an answer? he never answers!! i've done this girl...i really have. i have looked him straight in the eyes and said, tell me the truth. do you want to get married yes or no? i need an answer and don't tell me, "i don't know." you know what he says? I DON'T KNOW!! so then i have to walk away or stay and wait more. what if i'm really tired of waiting. what if i feel like this is really never going to change. i have to decide whether i can stay and be happy and not bitter or resent him. or i have to go and be broken hearted and bitter still. sure i'll heal but i'll never be the same again. or do i marry him in a month and hope and pray that i can make him happy and there won't be any resentment? what do i do? this is small potatoes to the rest of the issue but there is contracts signed, downpayments, flowers, rings, a hall, a minister, a cake all picked out and ready to go. family and friends are happy and things are ready to go. cancel it all? tell everyone it's off? look like a fool yet again? that i can't make him happy? that i'm staying like the stupid women on the TLC and Hallmark movies? i can't do that. I can't look like a fool anymore. Sell our house, split everything down the middle or yet again wait...wait...wait and hope and pray that he loves me enough and cares about my happiness.

and i don't like that you think there is something to fix about ME because i think marriage is important. why is that wrong and why does that make me weak?
Hun, why would you think wanting to be married makes you weak?
Pugs, I'm just lurking because I think everyone has already said what I'm thinking, but is it possible that you could get him to read this thread? It would give him the opportunity to really see how you feel about this whole thing and maybe think about all the different things that many busties have offered up.

(((pugs))) I feel for you, this is a shitty, unfair situation to be in but remember not to sell yourself short.

(ETA: I'm not a noob, I was formerly erinjane)
pugs, I am not saying that you are weak and it has nothing to do with your views on marriage. I am reiterating what I -and others- have said about therapy. You seem to have self-esteem issues when you put across that you can only be validated/of worth/valued if married. That is why I said that you need to go fix yourself; you need to work on yourself and your own issues. The self esteem issues were there before all of this was; perhaps that's why you joined your church and why you were susceptible to that women, because you don't have much faith in yourself.

I'm only going to say one more thing, as you keep asking me what do you do: you go speak to your partner. You sit down and you talk and you don't stand up again until you sort matters out. If he won't communicate with you, if you can't communicate as other couples do, then you phone and book and appointment with a therapist and you talk it through together with the help of somebody else. You don't look at the bigger picture or the mess that cancelling/postponing the wedding would make, you look at him and you and your longterm future and nothing else. You need to listen to him, beyond the "I don't knows", to what he's really saying, and you have to listen to your heart and then come back and listen to us sermonize some more.
Pugs, who will be the officiant for your ceremony? Is it the minister at your church?
roseviolet...what a question for you to ask. sad.gif

no it won't be. that is another long story. i can't talk about this anymore. i makes me so upset and makes me feel stupid so i'm gonna sign off for now.

i'll be back another time.

thanks everyone

Pugs, you aren't stupid, what you are is trying to make sure you don't loose the man you are in love with. you are seeking clarity. you aren't weak, you aren't stupid, it just seems like you are really lost right now.
Dammit, I was afraid she'd do that.

LMP, I know all of this has been painful. That really isn't a surprise, though. I suppose you knew you were bringing up a painful topic. I just hope we haven't scared you off forever. I hope you come back later. CH is absolutely right, you know. You aren't stupid. Not in the least. You're in an extremely difficult situation. From the outside, it can seem easy, but it is sooooooooo much more complicated.

I wish I knew what you wanted to hear today. Did you want advice? Or just support? Or both? Did you hope someone would come along & say it would all be okay? Well, I guess that last one is probably the closest to being true. Every person I know - especially the women in my life - want someone to tell them that everything is going to be okay. So I'm going to say it.

Everything is going to be okay.

Really. Everything is going to be okay. Eventually. Life doesn't always turn out the way you wanted it to or the way you planned it. That seems to be the case for most people. But you know what? It still turns out okay.

I'm going to just forget about Mr. Pugs for a second. Because I think I'm recognizing something in you ... something I saw in myself not so many years ago. I am starting to see a thread here. I think that you are a person who wants to grow. Your heart and spirit ... it wants to be more. It wants to be deeper & richer. And of course you want your relationships to grow as well. I know this because I have been in a very similar place. I understand that longing. It's part of the reason why you started going to church more, right? This longing for growth may've crept up in little ways elsewhere in your life, too. If I'm right - and I hope I am! - I think that's beautiful. It really is. I admire you a lot for reaching towards that because I know how hard it is to take that first step. I know how scary it can be, but how fulfilling, too. I'm just so sorry that things got fucked up. That woman should NOT have said those things to you. Luckily, your minister sounds like a really great human being. I imagine he could be a great source of support for you. Maybe instead of speaking to a therapist, you might feel more comfortable just talking to him. I don't think he would EVER tell you whether you should or shouldn't marry Mr. Pugs. But I do think he might help you make some sense of this mess & maybe help you gain a sense of control over the situation (or just your life in general or whatever).

I wish I could tell you what to do, but the plain truth is that none of us can. You can't break it off because some lady at church told you to. You can't break it off because 9 out of 10 Busties tell you to. Conversely, you can't marry someone just because other people tell you to. Tons of people can give you tons of reasons to make different choices, but I know they're all reasons you've heard before. It's the same old song, just sung by other people. So maybe you're hoping to stumble upon a voice that resonates with you? Maybe? Someone who will say something in such a way that you'll have a miraculous "Ah ha!" moment and you'll suddenly know just what to do.

As I read your posts, there are so many things I could say - mainly stories from the time in my life when I was in a VERY similar position. A part of me wants to tell the whole story. Tell you how one thing happened & then another & something else stepped in and fucked up an already fucked up situation & what I had to do to get over it and blah blah blah blah. But my way isn't the only way. And what was best for my situation may not be best for yours. But I think I will tell you one thing.

I had an "Ah ha" moment of sorts ... only the person who said the right thing to me was myself. I had been seeking advice from others - IRL friends, on-line friends, my therapist, etc. - for years. I had heard SO much advice & a lot of it was excellent advice, but I still was unsure what to do. One day there was just a moment and my eyes were opened. Nothing very special happened & nobody really said anything, but suddenly my gut said, "No more," & I knew what to do. And I did it. I was scared to death that my choice would hurt people, but a voice told me, "They will be okay." Maybe it was God, I don't know. But I knew it was true then and it has proven itself to be true now. Yes, people got hurt (myself included). But they got over it. And as they saw me grow, they came to understand my choice a little better & grew to respect me more than ever.

Listen to your gut. Take a look at those vows, speak to your minister, whatever feels right. And good luck.
*yawning, blinking*

Damn. Stupid Pacific time/graveyard shift.


First of all, I want to say that you (and these same Busties) have seen me through some weird times. You have given me some very well-directed and wise words in the past, and it's not hyperbole to say that your encouragement and advice helped this jaded sailor to NOT fuck up her relationship with Beeps.

And it's just that wisdom that assures me that this is not some ring-and-veil obsession. You have put so much of your life into this, and in every way that mattered, you and the Mr. have had a functional, healthy relationship - periodic craziness aside. I can totally see how frustrating it would be to hold this in your hands and wonder why it's not enough for him, why he wouldn't want to hold on to it with you.

Nothing I can say will be the magic words. No one involved is Right or Wrong. You are no less of a woman whether you two are married or not - not that my saying it will change the feeling in your heart.

I ramble. I just want you to know that I'm thinking of you. And we are all (I'm guessing) struggling with the best way to help out someone who's given US so much of herself as well.


Perfectly said, Rudderless.


OMG I cannot even imagine what you are going through girl. I have mixed feelings about the situation, so I'll hush up. But I just wanted to offer a hug, and pray that you find the answers you are looking for. And most importantly, I hope you find happiness.

That is a sticky situation you're in hun.

~all the best~

QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Jan 13 2009, 02:01 PM) *
what do i do? this is small potatoes to the rest of the issue but there is contracts signed, downpayments, flowers, rings, a hall, a minister, a cake all picked out and ready to go. family and friends are happy and things are ready to go. cancel it all? tell everyone it's off? look like a fool yet again? that i can't make him happy? that i'm staying like the stupid women on the TLC and Hallmark movies? i can't do that. I can't look like a fool anymore. Sell our house, split everything down the middle or yet again wait...wait...wait and hope and pray that he loves me enough and cares about my happiness.

and i don't like that you think there is something to fix about ME because i think marriage is important. why is that wrong and why does that make me weak?

my heart truly dropped when i read that you didn't want to look like a fool for not making mr. pugs happy. i believe you have every right to want to get married and enter a loving relationship with someone who wants the same thing. it sounds like the question is if mr. pugs is the man who can contribute to that type of relationship. you deserve a good, loving relationship. i don't see your situation as the result of the result of something you aren't able to do or mr. pugs. it sounds more like a reflection of 2 people who want different things in their lives.

gosh. i hope you come back to the boards or at least lurk. i don't think you are a fool. i hope you are getting married for the right reasons (whatever they maybe) not to appease others. whatever decision you make, the people in your life will support and love you. remember, we want YOU to be happy at this point.

bunnyb: "You seem to have self-esteem issues when you put across that you can only be validated/of worth/valued if married."

i'm sorry, i don't meant to pick a fight with you, but i don't think that's true about pugs. i don't. i've known some fantastic women, one in particular who did have self esteem issues re:being married. she was very successful, had lots of very cute guys all over town who had major crushes on her. but when she got about 3 dates in, she'd ask if they were looking to settle down, and start putting crazy pressure on them. but how can you say that about someone who has dated someone for 13 years? really? i'm sorry but after 13 years, ANYONE has a right to say, look, we are serious about each other, let's make it official. and i don't think you have self esteem issues for saying it. i do however, think someone who dates someone for 13 years but has issues* with getting married, not only has self esteem issues, but i think they are an asshole to boot. i'm sorry on what planet is that fair? on what planet is that acceptable? it's not even the engagement. that he would propose to her, and then with 4 years to get used to the idea has cold feet? that's adding insult to injury. no, for me the time spent is reason enough for pugs to be in the right in my book.

i think sometimes feminists-- and maybe it's me but i think that's the problem here-- sometimes they have this foregone conclusion. she wants to get married = self esteem issues. but as the song goes, "t'ain't necessarily so." C'MON, AFTER 13 YEARS? after all pugs has done for mr? i'm sorry, but i think that's HORSESHIT. how can you say that? she has put sooo much energy into her relationship, but somehow, all of that is negated, and it's her self-esteem. why would she want, need to get married, unless she doesn't feel good about herself?! it's just this knee jerk reaction, without looking at all at her particular circumstances.

why would she want to get married? how about, she wants to know that he's going to be around tomorrow? how about, she wants to know he takes the relationship as seriously as she does? how about, she wants to know that all of her time and effort wasn't just wasted? there are a kazillion reasons why she might want to get married and after 13 years i'll be fucked if he has a SINGLE GODDAMN REASON that shouldn't have been resolved a long time ago not to get married if he had any stones.

i'm sorry, i couldn't disagree more strongly. i think pugs is in the right. the issue is certainly not with her in my view. it's with the mr. and it's shit or get off the pot time, and he needs to get his shit together and grow some stones and either do it, or tell pugs.

i have to admit, i take this a bit personally. cos i've seen it before. one of my friends from highschool, was one of the biggest sexist ass. he would rate women's breasts and tell them their score to their face, unprompted later after he matured a bit we were roomates, and he started dating this girl, who was nothing like the girls he would oggle over in high school. but she was sooooo good for him. and for a while he would tell me he had no intention of marrying her, and he'd rattle off her flaws as he saw them. but i saw the way she treated him, and he grew up. he stopped talking about that, and he fell for her hard. she got some pretty serious medical problems, but i've never heard him say anything but the best things about her. turns out she doesn't want to get married. she just wanted to know he was committed. and he is. he is one of the best boyfriends ever. but i think there comes a point at which, if you aren't going to be serious, then it is UNETHICAL to keep dating that person. if neither of you want marriage that's one thing, but if one of you does, and you keep your partner on the string.... in my book you are a class a- douche bag.
I can't wait to put an ivory dress on and become Mrs Jones, doesn't mean I have self-esteem issues. I told pugs that I think she has low self-esteem issues because I think she does; I also said that it didn't have anything to do with her thoughts on marriage. We have different opinions of pugs, gt, and that's cool; and I'm sure she agrees with your persepective. It's all good. The issue is that pugs and mr pugs are happy after this, married or not.
I hope it isn't too late to say something. I hope that LMP is hanging around and reading and resting.
That my happiness should be second to his (IMO) unwarrented fears.
...another excuse to justify his other fears that are unwarrented.
he's put marriage off way too long and for no good reason.

I cut'n'pasted these comments b/c they jumped out at me. I am not defending the choices that the Mr. has made. However, LMP, I do worry that you are working very hard to invalidate and dismiss his feelings. To you they seem "unwarrented." But it seems that they are not to him. They are real and they will be a big part of him making a life-altering decision. If he feels that you are not hearing him, even if you feel that you are, how will that convince him that you two will be happy together?

I just want his complete commitment...
Getting married does not meant that you have that. It just means you got him to do what you wanted to do.

and i don't like that you think there is something to fix about ME because i think marriage is important. why is that wrong and why does that make me weak?
Nothing about wanting marraige makes you weak. Wanting marraige so bad that you are willing to marry someone who isn't ready or has changed his mind is concerning. BTW, why did it upset you that RV asked who would officiate the wedding?

If I look at someone I want and ask him what he wants and his answer is not "You," then all I know for sure is that I am not what he wants. That may change over time, but "I don't know" is not the same as saying "I want you in my life but I am not ready for this." If you force this issue and marry him without resolving these conflicts for good, will you ever feel that you really have him or will you always worry that he will leave if things get rough and you fail to be the "perfect wife" (placed in quotes b/c there is no such thing. I think you are taking on way to much of the blame/responsibility in making all of this perfect.)


I just want to say....

(((((pugs))))) there is all this analyzing and hand-wringing, and I just want to offer you my thoughts, my comfort...I'll light a candle and hopefully send some peaceful thoughts your way tonight.
starpiste..ouch that's harsh! It could be a deal breaker though. I haven't known too many people to change their mind about whether they want kids or not. That's not to say no one ever does.. but if you are seeing yourself with him in the long run, marriage, or even just being with him in five years or so..then I think it would be ever harder if you have to break it off with him at that point after all that time. I think you should try to discuss it further with him, try to talk calmly and understandingly to each other and maybe he will agree to see your side and be open to the possibility of children as well. If he is completely rock hard 100% against it even after civilized conversations then..well..he probably never wants kids..
((((pugs)))) I hope you get a chance to take a deep breath and know that there are alot of people here who want you to be happy.

You are the only person who can decide in the end what is right for you and your situation. That having been said if you have been together for 13 years, engaged for 4 and still not married, that is total bullshit!! If he doesn't know what he wants, and you want to get married it sounds like you want different things .

If he can't shit then he needs to get off the pot and you need to move on. What a waste of time. I agree with gt on this

I could never understand couples who would live together or stay together for ages without being married.
But then I have to lighten up and realize what has worked for me, doesn't work for everyone. Every relationship is different and everyone needs to find their own path.

I refused to live with hubby if we weren't married because I was not fuckin around . When we were dating I straight up told him that if he wanted to live with me he had to marry my ass. I wasn't saying it to force his hand but because that was how I felt. IF he wanted to commit to me he had to go all the way. We were engaged for 6 months, moved into our first apartment and week later eloped to Vegas. 8 years later we are still HAPPILY MARRIED( now you call tell Mr.Pugs you know a happily married couple)

whatever you decide I wish you the best of luck.

I want to share some quotes from Joseph Campbell's the Art of Living

" In marriage you are not sacrificing yourself to the other person, you are sacrificing yourself to the relationship"

" In marriage the woman is the initiator and the man rides along "

" marriage is not a love affair, it's an ordeal. It is a religious exercise , a sacrament, the grace of participating in another life"

" Woman is the guide to the sublime ,acme of sensuous adventure. By deficient eyes she is reduced to inferior states, by the evil eye of ignorance she is spellbound to banality and ugliness. but she is redeemed by the eyes of understanding. The hero who can take her as she is , without undue commotion but with the kindness and assurance she requires is potentially the king , the incarnate god of her created world"
Pugs..I agree with girltrouble. 13 years! I was antsy for my fiance to propose to me after a year! I just knew that he was it for me and it was what we both wanted. I could never marry someone who didn't completely want to marry me too. But that's just me. I think you have to look deep down for this..yes you love him and he loves you..but you want to get married and he doesn't! I can't believe how that must make you feel. Maybe he needs an ultimatum.
And I don't think it's weakness OR low self esteem to want to marry the man that you love, so don't feel that way!
I'm of the same mind as LMP and some of you regarding the desire to be married. It's important to me and something I want for myself. If I'm in a long term relationship, I'm in it with the expectation that we're working towards marriage. That said, though, I wouldn't have waited 9 years to get engaged in the first place. If he can't figure it out in 3 or 4, I won't waste any more of my time.

I have now bent over, grabbed my ankles and assumed the position. You may spank me for my transgressions.
thirtiesgirl - just to explain that i'm not a complete idiot

we met when i was 14 and he was 16. we were kids. i was just going into high school. so it's not unthinkable that we didn't get engaged until i was 22 and he was 24. that's not a bad age to propose to a girl. that's why it took him eight years to propose. actually, he promised to propose many times but he was in college, working full time and didn't have the money for a ring. i was also in college and working part time. we didn't live together either. once we moved out we were renting a small apartment on one income = no money then we bought a house = no money then i lost my job = no money then i went back to school = no money. for us there was never a good time during the past 13 years because either 1) our parents thought we were too young and we probably were or 2) we finally were out on our own and couldn't afford it.
I really have to ask, Pugs, why are you referring to yourself in such a negative way? You said you thought you were weak, stupid and referred to yourself as an idiot. This totally isn't the case, so why do you keep onn referring to yourself this way?

No one here is saying you are bad or weak or unfeminist or anything like that for wanting to get married. This boils down to the fact that one, you love mr. pugs and you want to marry him, the question is, what's going on in his head. We know what's going in yours.
First of all I want to say that I hope that this is not an intrusion on this discussion because now (and a year and a half ago when I used to post here under a different name) I’ve never really conversed a lot with you, Pugs, although I highly value(d) your posts and opinions. I have been lurking in this thread for the past day, reading what has been said back and forth, mostly because once I saw that you were back in the Lounge I was very glad to see it. Like I said, your posts always just meant something to me; you are a very smart woman and I respected what you said then and say now. I still do. Like I said, I hope that my commenting is not unwarranted.

It only dawned on me this morning when I was getting ready for work that my own opinion might be reasonable here. Obviously it is okay if it is not accepted or taken; I am definitely not pushing this on your or any other Bustie. I just thought that in Mr. Pugs' absence, my "advice" (I hesitate to call it that) might be something of interest because if he really feels that he is being pressured into marriage then he and I are in the same boat because I too am being pressured to be married to Rougeboy. This just started recently and there is a lot of back-story to it that I won't get into unless asked, but IF that is how Mr. Pugs is feeling I can tell you how awful it actually feels. I am not saying that you are pressuring him, Pugs, or that your wanting to be married is wrong because I think that after having dated for 13 years and being engaged for 4 of those years you have every right to want to be married; I don't disagree with that at all. I would feel the same as you do, if I was in your situation.

After reading all the commentary in this thread and thinking about it for a bit, I do have to agree that there must be some underlying issue with Mr. Pugs if he suddenly does not want to get married. I feel that him saying that he does not know any happily married couples might be something to get him off the hook for his feelings. I don't know many happily married couples myself - my own parents divorced when I was four years old and do not speak at all – but I still want to get married someday. It took only one relationship to teach me that if my boyfriend answers the question of “what do you want for us?” with an “I don’t know” I get the heck out of there as “I don’t know” rarely turns into a “yes, I love you, let’s be together” (again, in my experience). It is not my place to say you should leave Mr. Pugs and I am not saying that, but there is something bothering him about getting married and I don’t believe that it is just because he doesn’t know any happily married people. I know that you and he love one another very much – that is evident from the posts you have both made in the Lounge - but I think that the counseling idea might be a really good one. I know that this situation is not what you need right now, what with the wedding being next month, but it might be something to look into. I know that cancelling all the bookings seems like it would be so embarrassing (I would feel the same way myself) but it would be better than being married to someone who doesn’t want to be married to you, if that is really what the issue is.

This is getting long and I don’t want to go on much more, but I hope I am not being too presumptuous when I say that we are all here for you, Pugs. We love you here at the Lounge and we do want what is best for you and Mr. Pugs as well. This is an all-around shitty situation but it can get better. I don’t think you are wrong for wanting to be married; I think you are completely justified in your desire to marry Mr. Pugs. I just don’t think that you should go forward with the marriage at this time if he is having such serious doubts. I know from my personal experiences that if Rougeboy and I had a date set even six months from now, the way I am feeling about our relationship would prevent me from marrying him no matter what the cost until we have our shit sorted out (and there is some serious shit that needs sorting). I would not be able to marry someone who has such reservations. I am sure that he loves you – I would go so far to say that I am convinced that he loves you – but there is just something there that is scaring him and that needs to be sorted out before you take that step down the aisle.

Again, I am sorry if this is an intrusion of your privacy. I wish you nothing but the best and hope that everything works out the way it should. I hope that you are relaxing and trying to find some clarity in all this and I am sending warm vibes your way. =) (((Pugs)))
ch - i feel like bunnyb is saying that because i want to get married to the man i love and have spent 13 years with that i have bad self esteam issues. i also feel like thirties girl is saying that i was stupid for waiting eight years for him to propose. that i should have left long ago. that's why i'm saying what i'm saying. i don't have self esteam issues. i know i will be fine on my own. i'm graduating in may, i make good money and i'm a good person. so why do i have self esteam issues? you know i come on here and i put my whole life on this thread for everyone to judge and then i get told that i have self esteam issues. maybe i did just want someone to say everything will be okay. maybe i do want people to say that they understand my frustration. that i've talked to mr. pugs till i'm blue in the face. i've built him up, encouraged him and loved him more then anyone else over the years and i feel like i deserve something for that. being told that i have no right to "pressure" him is bullshit. i have every right. i've given him a lot and i don't think i expect a lot in return other then to be his wife.
Fine, you don't have self-esteem issues. I don't really care either way but I think you're deflecting from the issue at hand. I guess I have to repeat myself again and say that I do not think that you have self esteem issues because you want to get married, I am not an idiot. I was simply responding to your post about not feeling loved, wanted, valued because mr pugs doesn't want to marry you; you don't need marriage to be any of those things and I find it concerning that you think that you do and that there is something deep down that makes you feel that way. You should feel loved, wanted and valued by your man NOW. If you don't have self-esteem issues then mr pugs is not playing his part as he should be making you feel loved, wanted and valued; as a husband it does not magically mean that he's going to be able to make you feel that way. Anyway, I've broken down what I said to its bare bones in the hope that you may get it; flog me, chastise me, criticise me, put words in my mouth and make an issue about what one person has said to you rather than face the problems YOU brought up, but I'm not playing anymore. This is your problem, pugs, and you posted in here for opinions and/or criticism - constructive or not- and you got it; I'm sorry if you didn't like what I said but them's the breaks.

Also, you have no right whatsoever to pressure somebody into doing something they don't want to do but I don't think you're ever going to see that; the heart wants what the heart wants.
QUOTE(bunnyb @ Jan 14 2009, 09:45 AM) *
You should feel loved, wanted and valued by your man NOW. If you don't have self-esteem issues then mr pugs is not playing his part as he should be making you feel loved, wanted and valued; as a husband it does not magically mean that he's going to be able to make you feel that way.

you are right
Mr. pugs and I agreed not to talk about this anymore and that if he doesn't want to get married or wants me to cancel the wedding that he needs to be straight with me. That was on Saturday night. I think that was a relief for him. Things have been good since then at home but now that I've brought all this back up here in the lounge I'm again questioning if we are doing the right thing. I worry about suggesting to him that he sign on here and read my and everyone else's posts. I think it will make him angry again to have to defend his feelings. Perhaps I'll tell him to stop here if he wants to talk about what's going on in his head. Some time's I understand him more when he writes something down then when we are trying to talk about something that's been exhausted face to face. I'll tell him to check out this thread.

Thanks everyone,

.... if you're not comfortable with, or worried about him reading stuff here, don't tell him about it or tell him to read it. It's your decision. I don't mean you have to keep things secret from him, I'm just suggesting that if you want to keep it private, do so. You're not obligated to do anything you're not comfortable doing. This is a sounding board, and you asked for input to help YOU. There's nothing saying that he has to read this if you're not comfortable with it. just sayin.
nothing can hurt at this point, most everyone here sympathizes with him so perhaps that will make him feel like he can open up. i'm desperate now. i don't want to get married to someone who isn't sure they want to marry me. i will marry him anyway because i love him and i don't want to loose him and i think we will be happy when it's all said and done but everyone here seems to think the opposite. most people i talk to about this IRL say that he needs to man up and just marry me, especially the women i talk to and even most of the men. this is really the first time i've had women telling me i'm making a big mistake. everyone is telling him the same thing about just being a man and marrying me. shit, i've told him that myself. i'm so frustrated with the whole thing i haven't listened as well as i should and i haven't been very nice to him. i'm just upset. well, i gotta get to work. talk to you later. i told him to stop in here and read what's been said. he's busy but i'm sure he'll find time. i can't worry about it anymore. i love him. i want to be married. we're set for a little over a month from now. the ball is really in his court. if he doesn't want to get married he needs to just for once be straight with me. it will be hard but i want to know the truth and i don't want to hear I DON'T KNOW anymore.

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