Jul 24 2006, 09:30 AM
knorl05 - Just curious, why so much distaste for those women who work in sex industry? Did you work in it or lose someone close because of that profession? I do agree that it changes you; to what degree? I guess it depends on the person and their experience. I'll admit after spending various points over the span of five to six years working as a stripper, escort, web porn girl, model, etc. not alot fazes me. Some things most definitely offend me (and always have) they probably would alot of people; other issues I just accept and deal with different now. I don't cheat or accept it, am far from being drug addled and am not emotionally dead and lots of the girls I have worked with are just as normal as the rest of us.
jsmith - nothing is ignorant to ask, knowledge and understanding is power! Solicitation by definition ("to seek to obtain by peruasion") is illegal. To pay someone for an "act" (be it porn or a guy paying for a "massage") is not illegal, it just sounds dirty!
I'm not trying to change anyones opinion of porn or whatever else. I was merely defending those of us who have worked in it and aren't part of the stereotype. It's horroble to see women forced into it, to see 18 year old girls shaking their asses because they think someone will like them more if they do and have unrealistic hopes of big money and an undeveloped brain. I find it just as sad to see underage girls trotting around all summer half naked with their parents ok.
Miss Juliet - I'm sorry that this thread has veared away from what it was a page or two ago! I sincerly hope you and anyone else in your situation gets the answers and help they deserve and need. Ladies we should perhaps take our debate to a new thread or let it rest with both parties agreeing to disagree.
Jul 24 2006, 09:46 AM
Girlwithasecret, I know what I, and I think others mean is that people choose to be in that profession and that is thier choice and their right, but to come in here and derail a thread about someone who has been hurt by the sex industry just because it is going to step on some peoples toes is extreamly insensitive and unsupportive! There will always be people on both sides of the issue, and it is just very frutrating that certain people seem to have penchant for going into emotionally sensitive threads and playing devil's advocate just to be politically correct! And this goes back longer than you have been around here. there is a time and place for debate, argument and persuassion...and a time to put your own personal views on the backburner and be supportive of people who have been hurt and are going through difficult decisions. If the ladies of the sex industry are as well adjusted as everyone suggests, then they should not be offended by what has gone on in this thread.
Jul 24 2006, 10:23 AM
Back to the issue, I think what KIND of porn the boy is watching does make a difference. I had a boyfriend who loved pin-up girls and retro-style strip joints like old fashioned peep shows. He also liked Dita von Teese porn and the like. I had no problem with it, because I felt like my boyfriend loved women, and he thought of sex as fun and happy, and the adult entertainment he enjoyed had an art to it. Thats not to say if I had caught him watching something more hardore I would flip out, I wouldnt have, but if he were the type that constantly watched hardcore male dom and stuff that looked degrading towards women, I personally would be hurt.
And that doesnt just go for porn,..once I found out someone I was dating liked to play that Grand Theft Auto game, and it really disturbed me. I knew he was an adult and it was 'just a game', but, for me, it is a game that sends a negative message about both men and women. I didnt wanna be a mom and tell him he couldnt play, but it did turn me off greatly, and it possibly contributed to our break-up.
Jul 24 2006, 10:25 AM
I had planned to stay out of this, but since it came up again...I don't think any of us are trying to play the devil's advocate or make sure that everyone is totally PC, but I think many of us think of bust as a somewhat safe space to be able to come for support, and I think we just feel that we shouldn't have to watch ourselves/friends/loved ones be insulted and stereotyped, no matter the subject of the thread. I find that extremely insensitive and unsupportive. I know you said that there had been discussion about republican, etc issues, and I'm of the belief that if they bothered you you should have spoken up in the same way and asked people to be a little more conscious of the varying degrees of people. Although I'm Canadian and have not participated in those discussions, so that's as far as my personal opinion on the matter goes.
No one is trying to have a debate, innitially I was just trying to get people to be careful with their language for women who choose all sorts of different situations in their lives. If we wanted to pick up a debate someone probably would have already suggested we move over to the Suicide Girls thread. I've been using this board for over a year now and this is the first thread where I've felt like I'm being attacked. It sure as hell doesn't feel like any kind of supportive 'safe space'.
Misjuiliet, I hope things work out with your boy. It sounds like he really wants to try and is willing to get help he needs.
I hope these hijacks didnt turn you off the thread when you need to use it.
Jul 24 2006, 10:39 AM
Erin, I'm sorry you feel attacked. That's not the way it was meant...just like I'm sure you girls didn't mean to make us feel like we don't have a right to be hurt by porn or express frustartions with the sex industry at large just because some of you particpate in it.
Jul 24 2006, 11:19 AM
I really don't think anyone here was trying to step on anyone's toes, or make them feel invalidated, no matter which side of the fence they are on. Its just a highly sensitive topic. I went through a long period, where because of my personal experiences with boyfriends, and then my husband's use of porn, I was really hostile and judgemental about the sex industry. So it may seem like a strange step to take, but I decided to learn as much as I could about it. There are a lot of interesting, well-written books out there about the business aspect of the industry, personal memoirs of people who have worked in it, studies about its effects on the brain, and the way it is constanly changing. Personally, i found it all very interesting and eye-opening. The more familiar I became with it, and the more I learned, the more my anger dissapated. Also, (and obvioiusly isn't the case for everyone) I watched some of the porn my husband had for myself. I visited several different strip clubs in the area and actually talked with some of the girls working there. Contrary to what I had imagined it to be, most of these girls were really normal looking. (He's not into skinny girl, fake boobs). Without their hair and makeup done, they seemed like any other girl you could be standing in line behind at Target. Learning about it helped me over come my feeling of being threatened. For me personally, it really opened the door to being able to have rational, productive talks with my husband about it, and went a long way in putting us back on the road to patching things up.
Jul 24 2006, 12:01 PM
I'm interested zahia, in the porn you watched with your husband. I've watched plenty of porn with partners and have been to many strip clubs (I even went by myself to clubs back in my art school days, to sketch the dancers) but again, hardcore male dom is a whole other thing. Did you watch that type of stuff with him? What did you learn? I'm curious because that is the type of porn that both you and missjuliet claim that your SOs were into, and that to me is what would make the difference. I'm just curious about it, because it does seem unexceptable to me. I'm not trying to insult any sex workers here, but if you do participate in the hardcore stuff (and I mean hardcore like rape senarios, girls being hit, girls be defacated with urine and feces), how do you feel about it?
Jul 24 2006, 12:18 PM
Good points greenbean! I have a hard time believeing any Bustie would be involved in the hardcore sort of stuff we started out discussing. And I believe stripping to be vastly different from porn. I think it can be equally degrading towards women, but I also know most strippers don't get totally nude and they don't have sex with their patrons and they usually don't allow touching. I also almost think it's healthier to watch to..At least it is an interaction..eye contacts, words, ect.
Jul 24 2006, 12:30 PM
zahia, those are excellent points. I think many women have preconceived notions about all porn being smutty degrading w/out ever checking out. There is some really tasteful, couple oriented porn out there you just have to look for it. My husband and I watch porn together and I don't personally find it offensive. But like greenbean mentioned it depends of the type of porn.
We don't enjoy watching rape oreinted porn or hardcore bondage films/fetish films. But there really is so much out there.
But I wanted to ask missjuliet what her defination of a porn addict is? Is it an obsession or does he just have a few magazine, videos, and websites that he ckecks out?
Jul 24 2006, 12:35 PM
my whole initial point was that you dont need to put other women down (albeit in an industry you may not agree with) in order to support someone. i am not sure how, pixie, you think saying negative things about women in the industry would help to make miss juliet feel better (and make others feel worse). of course people have been hurt by porn, and any other number of addictions that are out there, but it seems as though you are taking it out on the industry and the women who work in it (and also invalidating their reasons and making it seem as though they are always fooling themselves-which is the ultimate in condescension) rather than focusing on the fact that it has everything to do with the man and his problems and nothing to do with the industry and the women in it necessarily.
i didnt want to derail this thread, and i am not generally ms PC (but in my experience pixie you often are) but i know busties in the sex industry were reading this and personally i am sick and tired of the hypocrits on this site who yell and scream about standing up for women but then get all high and mighty when it comes to women in a particular industry (or whatever) that they may not happen to agree with. i think the miss juliet got tons and tons of support and lots of great advice from busties who have dealt with this problem, however, i dont think putting down other women in order to "support" her is the way to go, and i just pointed it out. i dont think it was insensitive, as i was NOT saying her feelings are invalid. i dont think i have EVER seen so many busties be so judgemental in a thread before.
i also think, pixie, that you apology to erin was one of the snarkiest ones i have heard in awhile. not to mention this quote
"If the ladies of the sex industry are as well adjusted as everyone suggests, then they should not be offended by what has gone on in this thread."
could you possibly be more insincere? i have come to see alot more busties these days only being supportive if they agree on the issue, which, i am not sure is support at all but rather explicit agreement.
i am not really sure anyone here except those in the sex industry can sit in judgement or talk about what really goes on in it.
i will be the first to admit many many women are forced into the sex industry and it can be a horribly ugly thing. women can and are degraded very often. but thats not the entire sex industry and its not everyone in it and to think you know otherwiise is ignorant.
going back to the whole objectification thing, not all sex can and should be some sort of emotional enlightenment with lots of tender hugs and kisses and i love you's and all that other mushy crap. sometimes, men AND women alike just want hardcore sex and its just the way it is. you may not agree with it, you may not like it, but its the way it is, and dont judge people who find pleasure in things different from what you do. it doesnt make it any better or worse then the lovey dovey stuff rosey glass stuff that you like (and your SO probably hates but tells you he likes it).
zahia-i think you are right, knowledge can be the best way to get over your hate/dislike of something. often its bc you dont understand it. i have found that with things and people alike.
"I agree. my b/f's friend was dateing a girl that did porn (im extreamly against it) and he said that most of the time he reallly couldnt get into sex with her he kept thinking about her and the 100+ guys shes screwed. anyway he got rid of her, thankfully, he was way too good for her."
was he too good with her bc she was a big, bad slut? bc thats what you just sounded like. is a girl damaged goods bc shes slept with many guys? as far as i am concerned, it sounds like your friend is the one with the problem and its called he has a virgin/whore complex. i hardly think you can consider yourself a feminist if you subscribe to the whole "girls are whores" thing if they sleep with lots of dudes.
miss juliet-it seems like things are looking good for you and your bf. regardless of what everyone else here thinks, i WASNT trying to tell you that your feelings were invalid, bc it certainly seems like he had a problem. i also wasnt trying to derail the thread, bc you deserve support no matter what anyones views on porn are. i truly and sincerely hope you guys work things out. i am glad you have someone who is man enough to confront his problem and care enough about you to make a real effort.
i think porn is and always will be something that feminists disagree on, and that maybe we just have to accept that. in the mean time, i dont think we need to offend anyone in the profession while expressing dislike for the industry as a whole.
Jul 24 2006, 01:09 PM
I dont' really see how it's possible to NOT offend someone when we're talking about this stuff. I'm "offended" that anyone makes nasty degrading porn. I'm offended every time I see a strip club, or a show on TV that degrades women and objectifies them for men.
I know that women work in the sex industry-women who are there by choice. Real choice. I just don't get it, honestly. I don't get why someone would do that and then defend it, and say it's not degrading or whatever. I mean, what percentage of women in the sex industry are there because they truly, honestly like what they are doing? And, have other choices or opportunities? Where are those voices? Cause I've never heard them, but I hear a lot of talk about these women's existence.
I don't know where this women friendly porn is, I've never seen it. I've seen more soft core stuff, so maybe that's what people are talking about.
Personally I usually find porn to be gross, or just laughably stupid, if it's not gross. I don't think it is bad, but I do think that in a sexist society where women and children are raped and abused in epidemic levels, it's different. If we lived in an equal society, I'd feel differently.
I"ll probably get yelled at for this-but yeah, sometimes I do get mad at women who conform to men's beauty standards, and do stuff like stripping. Because, that just tells men "it's ok." It tells them that I'm a prude for not doing that. Because see-all these other women are doign it and they LOVE it. I feel like women in the sex industry are pretty much just perpetuating sexism, and they have internalized their own oppression. Most women. Not all. Although, like I said, I've never heard the voice of a woman who truly wanted to do what she was doing.
Jul 24 2006, 01:29 PM
a few busties who HAVE worked in the sex industry DID state their experiences so clearly, you arent reading all the posts.
secondly, there is TONS of women friendly stuff, so maybe you should do what zahia did and educate yourself instead of roundly condeming the entire thing.
also, it should be pointed out that there is LOTS of porn that doesnt have your typical stick figure women in it.
you seem to be so disgusted by the entire thing without even taking a second glance at it.
while i know there is lots of porn that depicts rape and whatnot, i dont think most mainstream porn necessarily condones OR depicts that. how two people getting off on a couch translates to demeaninng to women is beyond me. also, what about lesbian porn that lesbians watch that have no men involved whatsoever?
once again, all i see you doing maddy is getting pissed at women bc some men are not responsible so somehow its the womens fault for causing men to be a certain way.
"Because, that just tells men "it's ok." It tells them that I'm a prude for not doing that.".
any well adjusted person wouldnt think that, so once again, its not the womens fault.
it sounds like you have internalized your own oppression bc, like lots of women, you are blaming your own sex for the actions of men.
i guess women who are scantily clad deserve to be raped bc they are just perpetuating sexism and wearing something men find appealing and therefore normal, well adjusted men everywhere cant help but to assault them.
Jul 24 2006, 01:30 PM
I agree maddy! I mean honestly,...and I am going to preference this by saying, it is not meant to offend anyone, it's just a question....doesn't working in the sex industry and making money off looks, your body, sex, whatever, just perpetuate the very things that feminism are against? To me it seems like giving into that sterotype that women can make more money with her looks than with her brain. And I don't mean that to say that women who work in the industry are stupid. I have heard of women stripping to pay for college, but most seem to do that as a means to an end...not becuase this is truely the vocation that want to proceed with the rest of their lives.
Jul 24 2006, 01:46 PM
Geeez Katie! Well, I knew I'd get "yelled at" for expressing my opinions. I don't know why you are so pissy though. I'm entitled to my own thoughts, feelings and opinions, so relax and don't get all snarky at me.
I'm not blaming women, I'm saying I get frustrated by women who do sexist things. That's all. When I shave my legs, I'm participating in the beauty culture. To say I'm not is just ignorant. When a stripper strips, she's participating in a sexist culture where women are seen as sex objects there for men's pleasure.
I've seen enough "non-degrading" porn that was horribly offensive to me. Doesn't have to be a rape scene. Also, how do you know which women are there by choice? As one poster pointed out- she could be in a film with two other women who don't want to be there. So, we have people getting off on one person that wants to be there, and two that don't. We have people getting off on one woman reenacting her rape, and the other getting drug money for her pimp or whatever. How is that ok? I think it's disgusting to be getting off on something that could possibly be rape. Just cause you don't know, doesn't make it ok.
Yeah, I'm really sensitive about porn. My grandfather put me in kiddie porn. ANd I know-it's SOOO different because I was a child. Well, of course it was. But what if I had ended up in porn "by choice?" How much of a choice would that really have been for me? And for countless other victims?
I think people get very defensive because they use and enjoy porn, and then they aren't really open to discussing the pros and cons. I"m not saying you are a bad person if you use it, or whatever. But we need to be conscious about what we are consuming, and how it affects us and our sexuality.
I betcha more men watch "lesbian" porn, than lesbians.
Truthfully, I have no idea what you are trying to say in the last few paragraphs in your post. YOu seem to be very angry at me, although I'm really not sure why. I in no way said that women who wear scanty clothing deserve to be raped-where did you get that from? Geez.
Can you please point me to these posts stating BUSTies experiences so clearly? All I read was girlwithasecret, and she didn't really share much (alhtough I don't blame her cause this is a touchy topic). All she said was not much fazes her-which to me is just sad.
Pixie-yes I agree with you. But apparently we are evil sexist pigs because we feel that way.....
Jul 24 2006, 02:05 PM
anonymous feminist talked about her experiences in BDSM and i think erinjane said something, in addition to girlwithasecret. there are other busties as well who havent posted in here.
as for stripping, while yes, i may agree with you in terms of what you said, i do think many women may not agree with the idea that they are actively participating in their own oppression bc they may have different ideas about it. i just think its condescending not to realize that.
i have enjoyed porn, i wouldnt say very often, however, i explicitly stated in my last post that i am the first person to say many people arent their by choice, so i hardly think i am not open to discussing the cons as well. i did a giant paper in college on women in the sex trade, many of whom end up as prostitutes and in porn, among other things, so i am well aware of the cons.
there is porn that is made by women for women. its your prerogative to be offended by stuff like that, i just didnt think you were being particularly respectful to those who may not share your opinion.
in terms of your grandfather doing that to you, well, i dont really have words for that bc of how disgustingly horrible that is. i would think that i too would be against porn for the rest of my life, so maybe you can completely discount anything i said above.
i dont think you are sexist either, i was using that scantily clad example bc it seems alot of the stuff that is going on here is blaming women for mens actions, which is what many people do when they speak of rape. you talked about how men think you are prude for not acting like women in a strip club (or porn or whatever) and that seems to be blaming these women for stupid men who cant separate fantasy from reality. whatever, again ill say that its something feminists will always disagree on, and there are many many good reasons for how everyone feels about it. i kind of see a pattern where people who were negatively affected by porn hate it, and people who have only had good experiences dont see the problem. i would like to think both are valid ways to look at the issue, as long as you consider everyones viewpoint and not be dimissive towards everyone else.
Jul 24 2006, 02:20 PM
Katie, I think we agree more than you think we do.
Of course women who are in the sex industry aren't sitting around saying "wow, I'm participating in my own exploitation." They have their own reasons for being there. This is where I don't get it- what are these good reasons?
Paying for college to me, isn't a good reason-because that just shows how screwed up our country is that we don't give people the chance to be educated unless they are rich or lucky.
I do think there's a difference between "blaming women" and requesting that women do hold some responsiblity for some things. When I was in college, guys treated me shitty, and I put up with it. Now, I'm not blaming myself for guys treating me shitty, but I played into it. I put up with it, I tolerated it, etc. It'd be easy to say "oh I'm a victim blah blah." But I played a part in it too. Gah, I'm not able to communicate this right. I'll try tomorrow maybe.
I know that my own experiences have obviously shaped me. I'm trying to be more open and listen to what others have to say. But, part of me wonders why I need to do that. I don't like porn. It upsets me, for the most part. It triggers me and makes me feel awful, for the most part.
My experiences in porn are: being dressed up by my grandfather, posed in certain positions, than having pictures taken of me. I saw these pictures in a magazine with other kids. He invited friends over to look at me, etc. Take pictures of me, rape me, whatever. I wasn't a human, I was a body for them to position and get off to. I had no power, he profited from it as well as getting off on it. To me this is what porn is. Someone else getting off on my body. Someone else profiting from my body. I don't see this as so different that adult porn. At least in my experience.
Besides my own abusive past, porn to me just sucks the life out of sex. It shows sex in a way that I don't like. That's not what sex is to me. People just treating each other like warm bodies, etc. Girls just "dying" to suck 7 guys off in a row. To me, it makes sex seem dirty and shameful, instead of beautiful and fun. But that's just me, and that's why I don't watch it.
Jul 24 2006, 02:29 PM
lets put it this way, i completely and entirely agree with why you find porn offensive and would NEVER, EVER (despite what some people may think or say in this thread) tell you those reasons arent good, or not valid etc etc.
lots of porn grosses me out. LOTS of it. however, some portray just straight out fucking (and i also personally hate the kind where 7 guys cum on a girls face that really gets me pissed) and you know what, sometimes, i just like to have sex. no emotions, no i love you's, none of the mushy stuff, so sometimes, that is the allure in porn for me. however, thats my own opinion, and doesnt have to be anyone elses.
people who work in the sex industry will have to answer those other "why" questions for you, i cannot and wouldnt want to speak for them.
again, i am so sorry about what your grandfather did (i dont even want to call him your grandfather, more like monsterfather). its disgusting, and honestly, no words can really express how horribly i feel for you.
also, i know what you were trying to say in terms of holding responsiibliity. my only thing is that this is such a grey area, that sometimes women are explicitly participating in their own oppression where in other instances (such as porn etc) i am not sure its a black and white, but who knows.
Jul 24 2006, 02:32 PM
maddy,I think some people would rather spew than think things through rationally. There just seem to be so many contridictions here. Maybe I have worded some things wrongly, or maybe some people have just chosen to be offended, I don't know. I just don't see how secure, well self esteemed, empowered women who work in the sex industry would take a generalized vent referencing a specific area of their industry as aimed at them personally.
As mentioned before. I have been to strip clubs. I like looking at soft core stuff with Mr. Pixie. I can enjoy the beauty of a nude female body. What I have a problem with is the hardcore stuff and the attitudes, lying, and self esteem issues that come with it. If someone on here is one of the ladies who do farm animals for empowerment.....well, there is no way to end that sentence without being snarky.
Jul 24 2006, 02:53 PM
Thanks for saying all that katiebelle. I second your whole post. (Um, looks like there's been a lot of activity in here while I was digesting, I'm talking about the one from 7:26 which begins "my whole initial point was that you dont need to put other women down...") Some of the things that were being said in here about women in the porn industry were making me really uncomfortable, but I wasn't sure if I should say anything. I'm glad you did.
I don't really have anything I can add, just
Jul 24 2006, 03:09 PM
ok, i'll stand up.
my name is FJ and i'm a former sex industry *slave*. i had one of those paysites that guys pay money to join. i did it and i liked doing it. no one coerced me. no one forced me. the only reason i'm not doing it now is that i broke my back in a car accident in 2003. and i look at the men's magazine that i was published in and just shake my head with positive amazement. and when i showed it to my 89 year old grandmother in law, she nearly cried with joy because i was able to do that. i am not and was not ashamed.
now, i must also state for the record that this was NOT a porn site, at least not under my definition, although i'm beginning to realize that there are a great many varying definitions on what constitutes porn. while i did have images depicting me with other female models, i never had pictures of myself performing sex acts on my site (male or female). i was offered A LOT of money to do it, but i was able to prevent myself from sliding down that slippery slope.
i make that distiction not to say, "but i never fucked anyone on camera", but just for informational purposes. i know the degree of my "activity" won't make a difference to many of you. i was clearly in the sex industry.
and i had other options. i had a degree, had worked as an editor, a marketer, etc. and had made decent money at those things but didn't really ENJOY what i was doing.
then, i stumbled upon a friend from high school's website and was intrigued. i wrote her an email telling her how great she looked and how proud i was of her for being so successful (she is very well-known in her circles). she emailed me back to say thank you. that so many other people had found her site and sent her disgusting notes calling her a whore and such.
we began talking online and she introduced me to a local photographer and i went in for a photoshoot. and from the first snap of the shutter, i was hooked. i LOVED getting all glammed up and taking pics. most of my work was either lingerie/pin-up or completely nude. and i LIKED it. i liked looking at my pictures and seeing myself looking hot. it did make me feel powerful. perhaps that's difficult for anyone here to understand.
i ran my site as a business. i had no agency working for me. i found my own jobs, my own photographers, i had to be smart enough about who to contact, how to network, who to trust, etc. sure, there are MANY young women who get tied up in the sex industry that should NEVER be there. they may not have the capabilities or have been given the opportunities to find *legitimate* work. many of these are the girls that wind up falling victim to the industry. but most of the models i know are hard-working and college-educated. and IN CHARGE of every shoot.
i know many of you think that i was objectifying myself and perhaps i was, but i wasn't feeling badly about it. i have a positive self-image and my work did nothing but possibly enhance that image. i knew exactly what i was doing. and i know that most of the members of my site were jerking off in front of my pictures. but in my view, if anyone was being manipulated, it was the guy who bought a membership of my site and allowed himself to fantasize that he was my man for the night or whatever. i never heard a thing from many of them. but there were a number that would send me emails and tell me about their lives. they knew i was in a serious relationship/married the entire time and would ask me about my husband (and not about sex, mind you).
and when i was involved in the accident, many of them sent in donations to help me with me recovery. they didn't get anything in return for that. i only add that tidbit because the perception of men who watch/look at porn/websites, etc as the evildoer rapist is not always the case. i'm not saying that i would want to go out to dinner with one of my members, but then again i don't know that i'd want to go out to dinner sight unseen with many BUSTies either. that's just the way it goes.
someone said down there that no one rents a porn by themselves to get an emotional connection with another person. well, of course. but what about those socially inept people that otherwise would have no sexual outlet?
i'm not sure where i'm going with some of this and i'm at work, so i can't focus on this as much as i'd like, but i still wanted to get this out there. katiebelle said there are BUSTies out here that have not spoken up and i thought i'd come out of the woodwork in support of her arguement.
and don't worry, i'm certainly woman enough not to be threatened or disheartened by this thread.
Jul 24 2006, 03:21 PM
Good for you falljackets! I can only speak for myself, but my negative comments have been specifically aimed at the hard core, disturbing porn. And I for one, do see a big difference between a naked woman, and a naked woman doing someone she doesn't even know to make a buck. And you seem to be someone who realizes that the negative posts were not directed at you.
Jul 24 2006, 03:21 PM
Did I miss something here? I really didnt read any posts here that were insulting to porn actors (besides Tonin's, but shes a newbie so go figure). Honestly, this issue started because a girl was uncomfortable with her boyfriend watching HARDCORE porn. This is a specific issue, and I thought most of the posts were in response to that specific issue, until all of a sudden it turned into 'youre either pro-porn or youre a big meanie!'. WTF?
Really, anyone who is upset about the anti-porn posters here, I'd like to hear your advice on what one should do when their boy is obsessed with HARDCORE male dom porn. (if missjuliet even returns, I think we all scared her off).
Jul 24 2006, 03:26 PM
Props to falljackets for her post!! I think it's really important especially as feminist that we don't condemn women in the sex industry. A lot of women assume that all porn exploits women. But I honestly believe a good share of porn out there, portrays women and thier bodies in a positive way. Putting a visual on thier sexuality and the beauty of the naked female body. Not all porn is about gang bangs and the like.
(((Maddy29))) Your last post explained why you feel the way you do. And I can see why you hate porn. I know this isn't going to alter your opinion but there is a HUGE, differnce between adult porn between consenting adults and sick shit like that perverted f*ck did to you. I don't expect you to change mind or anything.
Just my 2 cents.....
Jul 24 2006, 03:34 PM
thanks fj. see, your voice is one i've never heard. i've never heard of anyone doing something like that. so you just put up sexy pics of yourself? tha'ts it? and people pay money to get into the site to see you looking hot? seems like such easy money to me:) your story to me is VERY different than most I've heard. Like I said, when the woman has a REAL choice, it's a different story, and you did have a real choice.
this stuff is just so tricky. i know i get all touchy when i talk about it, and i imagine others do too. it's kinda like damned if you do, damned if you don't. there's no right answer. i'm trying to understand more, which is REALLY fucking hard for me. but i'm very grateful for your words, fj.
do you ever worry though, that in 5 years, or 10 or whatever, someone will recognize you from your site? do your friends and stuff know about it? would it embarrass you if someone recognized you? it sounds like not.
whew. this is tough work for me. i know i/we have overrun juliet's thread, but we obviously want to talk about this stuff! i need to do some more thinking. more later:)
[speaking of unfeminist-i'm going to my laser hair removal consultation in an hour, heh heh].
actually, fj, would it be ok for me to pm you? i have a lot of questions, but i'm not sure the thread is the right place for them....
man i need to cry now. blech. this is why i usually stay out of porn discussions!
Jul 24 2006, 03:41 PM
Did I miss something here? I really didnt read any posts here that were insulting to porn actors (besides Tonin's, but shes a newbie so go figure). Honestly, this issue started because a girl was uncomfortable with her boyfriend watching HARDCORE porn. This is a specific issue, and I thought most of the posts were in response to that specific issue, until all of a sudden it turned into 'youre either pro-porn or youre a big meanie!'. WTF?Exactly!
Jul 24 2006, 03:48 PM
My comments and opinions were never intended to start a shit storm or to play devils advocate.
maddy29 - I'm truely sorry for what happened to you. Involving children (anyone under 18) in anything sexual is horrible and criminal. Forcing someone no matter what age to participate in an act against their will is wrong on every level.
To clarify for you as it's only fair. When I said that not much fazes me I was refering to the so called "mainstream" porn, ie: "lesbian porn" which is really for men, a guy cumming on a girl, "water sports" the list goes on because everyday peolpe push the limits. Alot of the before mentioned content that pops up on the internet is pseudo in all aspects. I see it as being for the most part fake and pretty silly, I'm not sad really (far from it)... I just have a different view because I have been on the so called "otherside" of some of it. In regards to degrating women in porn, I find it unacceptable and disgusting. I feel the same way about degrading men and the same way about animals for that matter. There will always be some freak who gets of on what is unacceptable to the rest of the world, I like all the rest of us in the "free world" (ha ha) have the choice to look (or participate) or not to and continue on with my life. I didn't share too much further in my last post because my "employment history" is long and multifaceted, I would answer whatever question if it was asked.
Zahia - You have some really good points. Not everyone is bad and most certainly not everyone in the sex industry is good.
katiebelle - "a few busties who HAVE worked in the sex industry DID state their experiences so clearly, you arent reading all the posts." - was that meant at anyone in particular?
As for the rest of what was posted in this thread today I don't know where to start?! We all have a point to make on the subject and what we as individuals see as acceptable. The sex industry is one giant grey area full of women in all sizes, shapes and states of fake and hairyness.
The objectifiying of women is subjective, some see a girl in a "slutty oufit" and go nuts others just keep walking.I said my 2 cents as I felt I (like others) had a perspective to share, I haven't gone into the greatest depth because I didn't see this thread as the place to do it.
I worked the jobs I did entirely by choice, no it wasn't a vocation but to some it is and they treat it like any other job. "I have heard of women stripping to pay for college" Unfortunately with the cost of a college or university degree in Nth America (I'm in Canada) costing $20-60 000 dollars, you do what you have to. I'm suprised there's not more people wrapping themselves around a pole, the grocury store and tutoring don't cut it. Stripping and all the other jobs we have "chatted" about require a bit more than than "looks" and "a body" sorry but you need a bit of brain to market yourself and make money be it stripping or prostitution. By the way my education that my ass paid half of involved a minor in womens studies!
There my opinion (the not so short and simplier version) stated; everyone who feels the need to pick it apart and overanalyze what I just wrote go to it! I never came into this to point the finger and say who was wrong or right or to make women's painful problems seem trivial. I do consider myself a feminist; the term however, like objectifiying is subjective. Bashing each other over our views does little for women as a whole.
Jul 24 2006, 04:41 PM
you asked who wrote something that some might consider offensive:
"on a side note, please remember those women are objectifying themselves. they are in the porn industry.. it is their JOB to look like that, to act like that. do not ever compare yourself to them because who you are is much more valuable than their fake, superficial, fading images. be good to yourself. smile."
"you are right that the people who choose the sex industry know what they're getting themselves into. really it saddens me. that's why i think the best approach is to educate women before they get to that point. it's not fun and it's not glamorous. it turns women into puppets and men into slobbering fools."
"i see BDSM as a deep-rooted psychological longing to obtain intimacy and more substantial connections with others that they feel they lack in their "real" lives.
Clover wrote: I don't think that is degrading these people to say that they are fake and superficial
while i have never worked in the sex industry, i find comments like these to be offensive to those that have/do.
not even offensive so much as condescending and holier-than-thou. since people clearly WERE offended, i find it even MORE condescending that you question why. none of these are specifically addressed at hardcore porn except maybe BDSM but even that has many facets and versions), knorl's post clearly states "sex industry". its nice to see many of you backpedaling now that FJ came out and wrote about her experience but I am not buying it.
i hope that asshole is in jail maddy.
girlwithasecret-you talked a little about your experience but anonymous feminist spoke about BDSM.
Jul 24 2006, 05:17 PM
girlwithasecret: i was a bartender for a few years in a strip club. i saw things from the viewpoint of an observer, but i was right there in it. i worked day shift. many of the girls were mothers paying for their kids that the dads wanted nothing to do with. the environment is completely different from days to nights. i got to know each of the girls on a personal level. i really respected them, simply because i have respect for almost everyone. but i saw what they went through. i saw the creepy dj molest them all day long, and i saw them just take it because their music selection contributed to their money. i saw the girls get disrespected and talked down to.. i saw them get touched in places they didnt want.. i saw them smile and put up with it all - because it was their money. the regulars got away with the most because they spent the most money. and then the girls would all laugh in the back at what big jackasses the guys were and how they were taking all their money. they would "sell" a part of themselves to these guys. and it really truly made me sad because i did know the girls. i saw the look in everyone's eyes when a new girl started stripping for the first time. the sweet naive girls who would think "i could do that". i'd see the transformation, each one of them. i'd see many of them eventually getting augmented even if they were morally against it, because it made them more money. and once it was done, the person they were before was gone, suddenly everything revolved around them. and the ones who didnt get the surgery, were bitter because they didnt make as much money. and the girls who had been doing it for over five years wanted to get into something else, but they couldnt, because their only experience was stripping for cash. and as much as you want to rant and rave that people need to be more openminded about the sex industry.. truth of the matter is, most average people simply do not understand and do not care to understand.
i just cant see how anyone can say that there is nothing "wrong" with the sex industry, when i've seen so many women be hurt through it. drug addiction was normal.. "side jobs" werent really talked about, but everyone knew who'd do them. many of them would say the only way they could do what they did was to be f*ed up on something. my experience has been that the industry and many people involved it are cold and unhappy.. both the performers and the consumers. maybe the world itself is becoming more and more cold and the sex industry simply contributes to it and perpetuates that. supply and demand as they say. maybe i'm too sympathetic with people who really just dont care. if someone in the industry (or academic busties) reads this and says i'm wrong.. oh well. i know what i've seen and i my opinion remains the same.
Jul 24 2006, 05:17 PM
You wanna know what I'm not buying? This started out as an emotionally sensitive thread where people were discussing their experiences with a very specific section of the porn industry. Someone made a generalized statement to the participants of the discussion and someone who is not even in the porn industry starts screaming that we are attacking everyone in the porn industry. And suddenly we have a shit storm. I don't buy that that wasn't a deliberate act to incite people to emotional confrontation.
Instead of talking about ways to rebuild self esteem and get help for the men who have a serious problem...we have digressed to just another shit slinging contest. You win, Katiebelle! The purpose of this thread has been sucessfully killed.
Jul 24 2006, 05:18 PM
Well, seen how I didnt write any of the said offensive material I cant defend or apologize for it, all I'm saying is that whatever has been said was in the context of expressing an opinion on missjuliet's specific sitch,...and katiebelle, you yourself said that male dom porn was "so not cool". and girlwithasecret, I seem to remember you coming out in the suicide girl thread to express your own disapointment in the industry,....
so really, can we cut everyone a little slack for their porn quams?
Jul 24 2006, 05:22 PM
katie: "images".. this is the key term. i did not say she, or anyone else, is better than sex industry workers as individuals. no one knows the character or quality of an individual based on their Image. but the substance of anyone, the essence of who we are.. is undeniably more important that anyone's image. she had mentioned she compared herself to their images, and i was reassuring her to not do that.
Jul 24 2006, 05:34 PM
maddy, you are obviously coming at this from a completely different perspective than most people on this board and i can appreciate how you can associate any kind of porn with the horrible things that happened to you. you can feel free to PM me and i'll share.
yes, it was easy money. i did photoshoots once or twice a week usually and came home with a couple hundred at least each time. most of my friends know about it and if they don't, i'd tell them. hell, most of my friends and even some of my family saw the site or at least pictures from it. my parents didn't have a problem with it (fundie backgrounds and everything!). they trusted that i was doing what i wanted to do.
the only people that don't know are my co-workers. i've often wondered what might happen if i showed up in some calendar or something and someone at the plant i work at found it. i wouldn't be embarassed about having done them but i'm sure i would lose my job if it was found out. i wasn't hired for another job because of it. so yeah, it does frighten me.
Jul 24 2006, 07:46 PM
ugh, i give up. clearly pixie, you only read what you want to read. i dont think its a shit slinging contest, and you know what, alot of people had alot of cool things to say. it wasnt even my intention to start the whole thing, just making a point, i certainly didnt want it to get to this point. but it did, and i think everyone had something constructive to say. i wasnt the only one who took issue with it, but you steadfastly choose to ignore that. this is all so freaking pointless. anyway, i am ducking out of this thread and bust in general for awhile bc i am sick of the self riteous whining.
missjuliet-hope you work stuff out
maddy-you must be a super strong woman
Jul 24 2006, 09:48 PM
"self riteous whining".. an interesting way to invalidate another busties opinions or feelings.
Jul 24 2006, 10:11 PM
you have got to be kidding me. I did say that those in the porn industry are fake and superficial. If you think that they are real and deep, then you may have some issues yourself.
Jul 24 2006, 10:28 PM
Well, this thread has taken a totally different turn over the course of the day, but I'm glad to see some actual discussion amidst the fighting.
First of all, thanks for falljackets for posting her experience. That is actually exactly what I am involved in now, but it's with many other girls and boys(well, a little more trouble finding boys who are willing) who are modelling for the site, and it hasn't officially launched just yet, hopefully within the next two months. In fact, my icon picture is one of the pictures from my first set. It makes me feel really strong to be a woman with a curvy body that isn't exactly skinny who is willing to show how proud I am of everything I've accomplished in my life and my body. I'm doing a double major, I work at a Women's Resource Centre, I have a lot to be proud of. My opinions and experience is nearly identical to yours. It is definatly empowering for me to be doing this. I think it's something very difficult to explain to people who aren't into it. My friends for example, just don't get it. They think it's great I'm doing it, but they would never want to do it themselves.
Maddy, I'm so sorry that happened to you. It's definatly understandable that you don't wish to learn more about the industry and you shouldn't have to force yourself to find out about a subject that makes you so uncomfortable. I guess all I was asking that those in the thread keep an open mind, and it definatly sounds like you are. Thank you.
Knorl, in response to this: "i just cant see how anyone can say that there is nothing "wrong" with the sex industry, when i've seen so many women be hurt through it."
I really really really don't think anyone was saying that the sex industry is all butterflies and rainbows. There is a helluva lot wrong with it, I wouldn't even know where to begin. I'm actually hoping to write my Master's Thesis on feminism and sex work (having just written a final paper on it) and so discussions like these are really invaluable to me, and I've found out incredibly disturbing information on the aspects that are wrong with the industry.
In response to feeling somewhat attacked by some of the comments, it was unclear to me that they were just about hardcore porn, as well, I think some of our definitions are unclear. To me hardcore can be described from something as simple hard fucking, to the really dirty stuff. The distinction was never made so I think that's where some of the confusion came in, simply the definitions. It really sounded like the comments that were made were being generalized to all sex workers.
I think there's some really valuable information in this thread that was starting to get discussed on the current page before more insults started to get thrown around. If anyone still wants to carry on the discussion I hope it can be done here, or perhaps moved to a new thread and just let this one die? Does someone want to suggest a "Feminism and Porn" thread in the community forum? Let me know if anyone is interested and I'll suggest. I for one would like to see more discussion and perhaps some civil debate. I think we have a lot of different opinions and helpful insights to share that can enlighten everyone.
Jul 24 2006, 10:31 PM
Greenbean- I think I didn't clarify when I said my husband was into hardcore porn. I have never once found evidence that he liked rape scenes, or anything along that line. Really, compared to alot of what's out there, its pretty tame. I just meant that it was like, lots of anal, lots of cumshots, no storyline, just fucking. The facial cumshots bothered me a little, but that was about it. As far as I can tell, he wasn't into watching women being humiliated. (That would have been a whole other ball game!) I was more upset that he was turning to it so often, and how it was changing him as a person, and the dynamic of our relationship. So, for me, watching his porn was a bit of a relief. I realized he wasn't into sadistic, degrading things. The other thing I noticed was how similar the girls were, in body type, to my own. A little overweight, with big boobs and a big butt, but nothing fake. So that at least helped a little b/c I saw there wasn't an unrealistic body type he was comparing me to. Honestly, before I saw that, I didn't know that there even WAS porn that had people like that in it. I always associated it with a very specific body type. I also found out that porn really doesn't do anything for me. Doesn't really turn me on. Eh,so what, I don't like Braveheart either, and lots of people do.
The reason it was helpful for the most part, was that it brought me down from my anxiety ridden, just desperate emotional state, and allowed me to have real conversations with my husband where we were able to talk about why he depended on it, what he got out of it, etc. And once we got through that, and started to see how the porn was really an "escape" from depression and stress (he suffers from PTSD) he took the step to go see a counselor, and get to the real root of the issue. And as I stated earlier, I too, began seeing a counselor (completely separate from him) to help me with my self esteem issues. And I think that thanks to us taking action and responsibility for our own feelings, we've been able to support each other in overcoming a very dark period in our marriage.
Even though I am more comfortable with the "type" of porn he was using, I would still be upset if it started again, because he doesn't seem to have good impulse control when it comes to it.
Maddy- I can't even begin to express how awful I feel for you. I'm so sorry you went through that.
Sigh. I hesitate to even say this, because I don't want to fan the flames. Its just an interesting thought that occured to me driving home tonight. (YES, there is a lot wrong with the porn industry, and it does hurt some of the people that participate in it.) How would I feel if one of my friends, who was confident, and proud of her body, and proud of her sexuality, wanted to earn money from it? Would it really be fair for me to tell her she shouldn't do it? I would never tell my artistic friend that she shouldn't pursue a career in that. And I know, I KNOW, that there is a big difference in the two industries. But who am I to say that someone shouldn't make money off of something they're proud of. I know that it really hurt my feelings when my friends were hyper-critical of my decision to join the Navy.
Please, please, don't take offense to that. I realize its a generalization. I realize it doesn't cover all the "what ifs". I just wanted to share it because it made me think a little.
Oh, and erinjane- I love that idea for a new thread.
Jul 24 2006, 10:43 PM
I'm gonna go ahead and suggest it in the community forum because i think this one just got a little too nutso.
I think that's an interesting question to pose to yourself. I seriously doubt I would delve any farther into the industry then the photo site i'm involved with now, but if I had a friend who wanted to strip or become a full out porn actress/actor, I would try and sit down and have an honest discussion with them making sure they'd thought it through and try to get them to research what they're getting into to and who they're getting involved with. There is a lot of shady characters out there.
Jul 24 2006, 10:49 PM
Erinjane, i will check that out.
Oh, sorry to post AGAIN. I just wanted to suggest to any BUSTies out there dealing with someone who is genuinely addicted to porn...check out the "Addiction: When someone you love has one" thread in Friends and Family. Yeah, its a little more geared to drug/alcohol addiction, but i find it really helpful. My therapist had even suggested Al-Anon meetings (hahaha there's no such thing as sexaholics in the deep south). Both a great places to meet other people struggling with feeling poweless over a loved-one's addictions. And please, if anyone has any questions, feel free to PM me. Sometimes it helps to talk to someone going through the same thing.
Jul 25 2006, 04:43 AM
erinjane: (i love the idea of starting a new thread, please let us know how that turns out.) you're right in that no one really thinks the sex industry is harmless.. perhaps that's actually one of the main reasons so many people get into it. wow. you know, because no one is disillusioned into thinking the sex industry is about love and caring and productive lifestyles. maybe it angered me watching all that take place because i did have an opportunity to know the dancers, so i was able to put myself in their shoes. but that was them, and it was their choice to take the perceived bad with the good. it goes along with the industry, and people can either choose to take it or leave it. i completely agree with your idea about educating a woman about the industry before she gets into it. that's my main feeling too, because i feel many young women look at it as just fun easy money and perhaps dont realize the negative experiences and temptations that exist. because we all change and mature through the years, and i think it's a huge step to take without knowing the potential outcome of that choice.
Jul 25 2006, 08:47 AM
Zahia, talking through with someone who/had been dealing with this is exactly how this thread started. I believe you were a part of that. I also would not judge someoen for deciding to go into that industry if that is their choice.
I don't see any reason to start a new thread. The discussion could continue here because the origional discussion has been so derailed, I doubt many of us feel comfortable with continuing now.
There shouldn't have been any reason why this thread became such a hotbed. We tried a few times to bring the thread back on course, but then everyone who hadn't been in on it from the begining came in to defend their role in the sex industry.
Erin, You said you don't believe everyone thinks the industry is all rosie, and I think everyone agreed that the specific area we were trying to discuss is disturbing...that is why those of us on this side of teh issue took so much offense to people deliberately derailing the thread and using a few generalization which I think were implied to mean the subject at hand and blowing it all out of porportion.
If you are serious about a feminism and porn discussion, what about my question? Does anyone else see it as conforming to the sterotypes that feminists are against? I am certainly not of the ilk that thinks feminists should be ugly and severly dressed and all that. But I don't think that I persoanlly could be in the industry...even just posing for pictures because to me, it would feel like a sell out. I'm of the belief that a well educated woman has much more to offer the world than her body, even if it doesn't pay as well.
On the flip side, yes, I can also see how empowering it feels to be comfortable with your body and expressing it as you choose.
Jul 25 2006, 08:57 AM
So what is the difference between simply enjoying porn more than the average bear and being addicted to it? I mean, am I addicted because 4 nights a week I can confess to having browsed sites with porn-ish material (7 if you count that swingers site we're on)?
Jul 25 2006, 09:35 AM
That question has been brought up a lot Mr.Fj...I think my definition would be when it becomes a compulsion that you can't control and you feel so ashamed of it that you feel the need to hide it or lie about it to your significant other. Or when it starts negatively affecting your sex life with your SO as in you either would rather have porn than sex or you only want your SO if they dress up or act out parts of the porn. I don't know how everyone else would define it. I think it's kind of subjective.
Jul 25 2006, 09:59 AM
Ok, so I just woke up (I'm in California) so a lot of these posts are new to me....
Erin, yes youre right, our definitions are unclear. I forget that sometimes that I live in the highly sexualized bubble that is San Francisco, and I wouldnt bat an eye at some of the things that make others uncomfortable. For one, I don't consider stripping or posing for erotic pictures 'sex work'. To me sex work is prostitution (which is decriminalized here, heck, they advert. in the paper!) or having sex for money in porn.
Stripping and erotic art is cherished here in San Francisco, and very female dominated. One of our most popular strip clubs is owned by the dancers, and many other clubs throw female-created and controlled burlesque nights. My sister used to strip and has nothing bad to say about it, and I have friends on
Nudity is common even in the street here, we got public nude beaches and at most sf events youll see some bodies, wether it be a marathon or a breast cancer awareness march, the bdsm fair, or burning man.
Zahia, yes, our definition of hardcore differs. What you described is just regular ol' porn to me,..
'hardcore' to me says rape, defacation etc.,....and thats the trigger word that got me to contribute to this thread in the first place.
I wish we could get more into 'porn and boys' here, because eventhough I and other may enjoy a bit of porn now and then, it IS a common concern when the boy is a bit too wrapped up...
so perhaps we can have the feminist discussion elsewhere, and save this one for looking at it through the 'how it affects relationships' point of view?
and pixie I second your definition of porn addiction...
Jul 25 2006, 12:12 PM
Well Greenbean...it looks like there is going to be another thread. Also Lounge lady has a poll up in the community forum about whether or not to change the format to have new posts at the bottom. I think the derailment of this thread caused that, because it was posted after someone mentioned what happened here yesterday.
I don't know if Miss Juliet is still around or anyone else that wants to keep talking about dealing with the addiction aspect. But I'll hang in here if you want to continue. I'm just starting to really be able to look at what I went through objectively and see that maybe my ex wasn't a monster afterall and that his obcession was driving the part of his personality that turned ugly....of course, on the other hand, he needs to take some personal responsibility in what his addiction/obcession made him do.
Jul 25 2006, 12:29 PM
Since people have mentioned both wanting to continue the derailed and original topics, here's the new thread. http://www.bust.com/lounge/index.php?showtopic=52087&hl=
Jul 5 2007, 07:46 AM
Hi, I am a little new to this and I was just wondering what all you "assertive" people (hmmmm before tonight, THAT is actually a word I---and many other people would have described me as---would have done/said to your boyfriend after he called you a fat slut . . . After you had borne his child and did everyhitng to make him feel as if he was coming home to the greatest person/family in the world? . . . Oh well guess we can't please everyone, least of all our very picky and looks conscious men then days . . . Huh?!
Jul 5 2007, 02:38 PM
i'd say that sounds pretty awful and you might want to go into the 'general advice' dating thread and tell your story in more detail. these ladies can be very supportive. good luck. it also might go well in 'say what, idiotic things our dates have told us,' because that sounds idiotic to me.