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That sounds pretty great, sonik! And thanks for the connection to that website! I'm collecting some fora related to art/graphic design/computer geek stuff to go chat on. Shorter and less personal, of course, than bust postings.

You both do great artwork, too! I'm switching print skills to web, and am trying for a job higher up than what I had been doing -- will do some creative stuff and ship it off in a publishing way, on the side, but not so much freelancing on the side, because I think my health will suffer if I'm just trying to stuff in some jerk's legacy catalog stuff or something when I've already worked all day.

Mouse, I didn't mean to offend you before -- I know that you know your job description (although I wasn't sure how long you were there) but it seemed they were trying to blame you at odd moments for what the manufacturing end was doing, and you were peeved, so it seemed it was ambiguous, and it is not totally out of the question for the designer to check that end, so I was suggestng you tell them to fish or cut bait!!

IE, either you *ar* responsbile for it, and it should be added to your description with compensations, or you are NOT responsbile for it, and they shouldn't bug you.

It sounds like they are somewhat disorganized and wouldn't necessarily be open to you saying that, but, thought I would run it by. No disrespect of the mouse intended!

I <3 mouse!
oh, we're hideously disorganized. add to that the fact that we have three prevalent languages--chinese, spanish and english--and most of us only speak one well. awesome!

if i was offered something else with slightly higher pay, i'd drop this in a second. i enjoy the work but the way the place is run drives me crazy, and i do want to get experience in other fields (esp. print). i do have it pretty good here though--most of the time things are really laid back, and i have a great commute because it's the opposite direction of everybody else's, so no traffic.

i'm also freelancing for another apparel company which does a lot of licensing; i did three t-shirts for coca-cola a couple weeks ago. i may have sold my soul, but who cares--i'm too poor still to have ethics. tongue.gif
Agencies look for someone who's work doesn't look like one bit like that of people who are already with them. They don't want the wrong kind of competitiveness in their own stall, which is understandable.
That's too bad about the avatar..i would totally buy a shirt with a face like that on it!

And Mouse..i mailed the guy of Faesthetic when issue 5 just hit the stands. Maybe you get an email along the lines of 'issue 7 isn't coming out for months. Hit me up late spring and we can talk.' Just bide your time and mail again when the time is right. Parts are crossed on this side of the ocean!

Good luck Wombat!
Yeah!! See what "theme" isssue is coming up and just send it in!!

I totally want to have fun making stuff for the web!! This LOGO I made for a computer company that didn't have one (?!) just sprouted legs and wants to run around! Flash for you, my friend!

I hope someone likes my weird stuff eventually! I know i have to have the faith to give it a couple months!!
Da thread-killah!!!

I meant, give this particular project a couple months. D'Oh!!

Art will take a lifetime.
this thread tends to go through phases of lots of activity and then nothing.

i've decided that i want my next professional venture to be in book cover design. i just need to figure out how to do that. i have print skills, but no print portfolio. meh.
whooooo! the editor of faesthetic wrote me back and said that he'd contact me when he starts the next issue AND the email included the words "LOOKING GOOD!" *squee*
Great news, mouse!

I'm encouraged by the stuff I see out there, too.

Keep ass in program and mind in program.....I'm trying to hypnotize myself here.
The new issue of Girlistic Magazine focuses on artists. It has articles and profiles of all types of feminist artists, including some who made a career out of it. Pretty awesome.
REALLY, femmespeak? only six posts and all about this magazine? we have a self-promotion thread--aha, i see, you've found it.......and five others that you managed to find some topic to plug this with......but it's widely admitted that it's bad form to have that be your first and only m.o. on this board.

it's a shame, cos the magazine is probably interesting. it's just too bad you didn't take the time to get to know this awesome board (which is far more than a demographic you can market to) first so that you could introduce your magazine in a way that would make us actually interested.
Congrats, Mouse! I just got the faesthetic issue 6 in the mail, and it looks really good. I even got the 'special edition' with posters and stickers. I didn't really count on that, because i placed my order quite late.

I'm currently finishing my mailing of Christmas cards to be sent out. If you people would like a card made by me you can PM me your address.
Maybe you're not entirely comfortable with mailing your address, i'll understand. But i'll mail you my address too.. if anyone's up for it smile.gif mailing internationally is no problem, btw.
Wow, am i a thread killer or what??

This morning i woke up to people texting me my work is in a national paper. It's a review of an exhibition which opened last Saturday.

Things are going pretty good sofar. I hope i can keep up and not be needing a mcJob.
Gee, Mouse - does a whopping six posts bother you all that much? I've been frequenting this forum for months now, but never really cared to post. Then, I find something I really love and want to share it, and I get scolded about it? Sheesh.

PS. It's not my magazine. I'm just a contributor. Thanks very much.

femmespeak--i pm'ed you.

sonik, that's awesome! and i meant to say i want a christmas card, but forgot, and now it's after christmas! oh well. anyway, i'm not suprised you're doing so well. your work is fantastic. smile.gif
Hooray for Sonik!

And may the gods and godesses of good work and reasonable clients and good health and enough $$$ be with us all.

There are a lotta good things out there now, kids, and the first two months of the year are a GOLDMINE!

At least in Boston, where there are many "foundations" that start their yearly budgets.

May we all prosper.
i just got back from one of my favorite art galleries. sometimes it's a bit stuffy, or bland and annoying, but this time they had two of the best artists this gallery has to offer. the thing i like about them is they are fun. they use materials that are unusual and they both take me back to being a kid.

newport needlepoints comic book pages and knits full size superhero costumes.
trimble makes little wooden-- almost popsicle stick paths with curves, chairs and doorways, and other loopy things. they remind me of going to "the drumstick" when i was a kid. it had a model train that ran thru the whole resturant. i thought it was the fanciest resturaunt ever!!!! i loved following the paths thru the gallery...

who are the most interesting artists to art busties right now?
Oh, ya got me. I'll have to think about that one.

Some of my favorite of all time are Kandinsky, other bauhaus folks, Brancusi the Sculptor, and Kathe Kollwitz.


need more coffee.
*falls out of bed*
mmph. can i second that moo?
hey girltrouble! smile.gif

trimble's work reminds me a little of the stuff sarah sze does.

lately i've been focusing on illustrators and designers. i love james jean, jon gray, kozyndan, tons more.....chris ware of course.....stardust is a pretty amazing studio for motion graphics...

if we're pulling from the canon i love ingres (his drawings more than his paintings), hopper, duchamp and the dadaists.....there are tons more but that's what jumps to mind immediately. i don't really enjoy abstract art, though i respect it.

i'm also obsessed with midcentury illustration (20's to early 70's really...that's a bit more than "midcentury") and design; i love tove jansson's illustrations for the moomintroll books, of course edward gorey, especially the work he did when he was younger....maurice sendak.

too much!
Yeah, I love Chris Ware too!
I'm like Mouse, I'm more into illustration stuff.

I also love this chick, she's pretty new on the scene.kris chau
aw she's from philly!

i think her subject matter is pretty derivative (but well done, nonetheless, if you're into that kind of stuff*) but i love her colors/textures.

*ETA: shoot me, that sounds so pretentious. i don't mean it like that.

i ADORE james jean. there's something about his lines... so beautiful, wierd,

i love c.ware, although i've grown bored of his comics. they do have a lovely perfection tho. if you like his stuff, check out john pham. he admits that he was heavily influenced by ware, but his stories are so much more warm and loose than ware. his zines are cheap, fun and beautiful, but he hasn't done anything in years. sad.gif most of the pages from epoxy are on his site, so you can see how pretty his work is...
john pham: epoxy

i'm a huge fan of 'clearline'-ist comic artists/ illustrators (tin tin is a good eg of clearlinist style, if a bit simplistic), speaking of c. ware. people like jooste swarte, serge clerc, Yves Chaland, max, and daniel torres, to name a few...

more links, mouse more!
I've studied works of Raymond Pettibon, R.B. Kitaj and David Hockney when i started out.

Me likes Chris Ware's works too.

I wante to say more, but i forgot already...

Ah..Siggi Eggertson:
I meant to meantion Dominique Goblet. I saw work of her in a tv programme once and now my work is in the same show as hers. I couldn't find her website (if she has one, but you can click the thumbnails on the right)

I find Tomer Hanuka's work pretty neat. He made that album cover for Aesop Rock's Bazooka Tooth (among lots of other work including the New Yorker).

In other news; i went to a meeting last night with a friend/colleague of mine. It was a brainstorm session at the Dutch Association for Design, the 'union' for designers. It was meant as a one-off, but they asked us to be in this particular committee that generates ideas as of how to represent the section illustration more powerfully in this organization. Now i can make a difference and work out ideas to get illustrators more connected with eachother and stuff.
For those interested; RaisUp vol. 3 will be up this year. It's a publication and a series of art shows. If you'd like to get involved here's the url:

The deadline for sending in work to be judged is feb 28. (though it would do no harm to double check that)

I'm in too this year, and i have nothing but positive experience with this project.

It sure is slow in here at the mo, but i hope that means everybody is very busy artwise.

I've been busy doing work for other people...for free, but it at least expands my portfolio. And they're for friends, so I would feel weird charging them.

I was bitching about this in the wedding thread but I am designing bridal shower invitations for a friend, and her mom is super involved her ideas suck. I absolutely refuse to even consider what she cut out a picture of a bride and glue a pic of my friends face over the bride's face. Seriously. I sent her some ideas and she said they were "different and unusual", and that "I am the 'professional' so they will probably turn out fine." She seriously used quotations marks when she typed professional. I hope she forgot I went to school for graphic design.

That's really exciting, sonik. I will keep my eyes out for it!
Uhg, Gumby, it seems like this woman is so involved with the wedding she wants everything her way. I can imagine it must be quite tiring to explain other ideas would work better. And quotation marks? That's just hilarious! Don't let it get to you, life's too short to have your talent and ideas questioned by someone who clearly doesn't know designing etc. takes just that-ideas and talent.

It's time for coffee!
Jeeez, thats exactly why I refuse to do work for friends and family. I have this one cousin who keeps asking me to do a portrait of her daughter from this one particular photo...and i keep telling her I cant because the photo has bad lighting, so the painting will look bad. Not to mention I'm and illustrator not a fine artist. Ugg. She just doesnt get it and thinks I'm being lazy.

Gumby, what does your friend think about her mom's ideas?
omg, gumby, that woman sounds awful. just ignore her--she's obviously an idiot.

re: doing work for free for it's a slippery slope, you know. i've done a few things like that and they've ALWAYS ended up horribly. your friends end up resenting you, or you end up resenting your friends. i know the need to build your portfolio, but don't sell yourself short, even to friends. if you had a friend who was a plumber, would you expect them to fix your toilet for free so that they could boost their resume? i think people in the art business get sold short a lot of the time because first of all, we're not typically the most business-savvy demographic, and second of all, people think it's EASY. know your worth, and expect to get paid for what you want to do for a living. if you're going to do work for free, though, make sure you set parameters before you begin--like signing a contract for a job. otherwise you'll end up swamped with fifty million miniscule revisions and you'll want to strangle your "client". i don't want to sound like an asshole, and i'm completely on your side and think that woman sounds horrible, but maybe she put professional in quotes because she doesn't see you as a professional since you're working for free. what about the other creatives involved with the wedding? is the photographer doing it for free? the catering? the florist, planner, whatever else you have? demand to be seen as professional, and you will be. doing work for free can easily make you look amatuer. i really don't want this to come across as rude or whatever, but i hate seeing that happen to good artists. you're worth more than that. own it.

Mouse is right. I've never done work for friends, but i know from stories of friends it can go very wrong.

In the end it's your friend's wedding, Gumby. What does she think of your ideas?
Well, I wouldn't normally charge nothing and I would usually also feel reticent about accepting a job like this, but I'm also a bridesmaid for this wedding, and my friend knows NOTHING about this because the shower is a secret!
Each bridesmaid volunteered for a job (games, favors, etc), and I thought I had made a good choice doing invitations because I figured people would TRUST MY JUDGEMENT. Or they just wouldn't care because it's a stupid fucking invitation to a party before the wedding. No big deal. But my friend's mom is just so invested in this wedding, it's pretty absurd. I'm not taking her barbs personally yet or friend's mom's previous career was WEDDING PLANNER, so I was probably just a little green that she would like my ideas? I'm positive that if she could have, she would personally do everything herself for this party. In the end, I'm doing it my way and she can deal.
Yeah, I'd go along with what mouse said. Each and every time I have tried to *give* graphic work to friends, it was a disaster.

They were either nice people who knew nothing about the field and would pick and pick and fuss and fuss and think it was nothing for me to do it over a million times, or they would be deliberately taking advantage, or they would be happy but not want to pay me even a pittance for the materials and printing I had to pay for.
Hey, you get my *art* free, which is a gift, not the whole tamale!!

There are some ways to give that won't bite you in the ass. I gave a lot of work to a woman at my college -- she'd won an art contest but had no idea how to produce it so it would go through the printers' properly. I sat down and spent about eight hours cleaning up a whole lot of mess. But she was SO HAPPY. She was really a good kid who was first learning the biz and I think she learned a lot that day.

Also, when I am on the job in big corporations, I do NOT withhold information. Several times I have worked with women who were just rejoining the work force and felt really intimidated, and I made sure that they felt encouraged and knew where to find everything, and what the short cuts are and stuff. A LOT of people have a snootful of attitude the minute they start competing. Hey, there's more than enough crap work for everyone!!

*sigh* but actually giving someone your designs on the mixing business with pleasure with inexperience level? Ow. I wish for the best for you.
Whats up art busties!?!

Just thought I'd pop a note that I am abandoning the freelance world and am going to work full-time as a graphic designer/creative developer for a company. In a way I feel like a sell-out, but I'm relieved I've can make regular money without having to hustle myself all the time (whew! back of hand swipes across forehead). It'll be my first 9-5 job!! I'm kinda excited,..although it means I'll be on the interwebs less, seeing as i'm not my own boss anymore.

hey Mouse, any news with you on the job-front?

see ya guys around!
hey greenbean, where are you working? congrats!

i had an interview friday. fingers crossed i get it--it's another apparel company but it's a more trendy/couture place (the place i'm at now actually copies them a lot) and the office is gorgeous and everyone brings their dogs to work and there are art books everywhere and it's actually CREATIVE and people are SMART and actually THINK ABOUT ART and i reaaaaaaaaally want to work there. plus it's downtown instead of 20 miles out into the san gabriel valley, ugh.

i'm also slowly getting back into the illustration thing (greenbean, will you still be doing illo on the side?); i just finished an illustration of this band the gris gris for a music-oriented newspaper, and i'm working on a poster for another great band called the kamikaze hearts. here is the gris gris illo if y'all wanna see; i'm pretty happy with it considering i had to knock it out in two days.

gotta do another postcard mailing soon!
Um, why did the Pornbot cross the road?

Thanks Mouse! Hope you get the job you want!

Without giving out too much info (this is the interwebs!) I'm doing both graphic design and marketing for a product geared toward teen girls. Its funny but I have a bit of feminist guilt about it, seeing as how its my job to attract young girls to something they dont really need tongue.gif But fuck it, its what I'm good at, and I gots to eat!

My officemates bring their dogs to work! And its a short bike ride from where I live, AND I get a very attractive, 20 year old, male graphics student intern under me.....all signs point to I am stooooooked!
Dunno if I'll do illo on the side, depends who asks.

Like your illo, I tried to put up a recent one of mine but its not working. Maybe later.
QUOTE(greenbean @ Feb 13 2007, 08:47 PM) *

Um, why did the Pornbot cross the road?

because that's where he gets it in his url?

good luck mouse!

i have a lot of feminist guilt for the place i currently work. we have t-shirts in our old screen books that say "everyone loves a drunk girl!" (i'm desperately hoping no one was stupid enough to buy that one, but i'm not sure) and we've had a crapload of that "tell your boyfriend i said hi" or "i'm single if you're rich" bullshit. not mine, of course, and when asked to do that kind of shit i manage to worm my way out of it (i think the worst thing i've ever had to put on a shirt is "addicted to love"; generally i get to do just graphics and not verbage) but i still feel hypocritical. not sure what else i could do, though. design and consumerism are pretty much inherently linked. i'd love to do print instead as most of it's a little more high-minded than apparel but i'm not there yet.

AND they've just announced that theyre going to make us start clocking in next monday. IT IS TIME TO LEAVE. i'm seriously, seriously considering just putting in my two weeks next monday anyway, regardless of whether or not i get this job. i'm stuck in a rut and i'm not going to get out of it by staying where i am.

glad you're mostly enjoying the job so far though greenbean!
I've gotten a few interviews and leads -- so far I'm not back into corporate print land, but, I'm optimistic.

Just did a web site for a band with a lot of embedded media and crazy colorful logos -- just to prove I could, and made so many great discoveries and connections.

Also, repurposed and presented a lot of my stuff web wise. Got a great marketing idea for a store.

I'm presenting my copywriting and case studies with the hope that I can get into a more marketing or management part of print land, also adding the web aspect. It's a little crazy because just in the last year, screen media art has been totally taken over by Flash ads, certain size of Flash ads, html/css, larger screens, and concern about also adapting to the handicapped, smaller screens (pda) and some kind of revival of web TV.

So, to show valuable insight into how to lead employees (potentially) I need to re-create my old stuff, and create new stuff, with the idea that it has to be compatible and adaptable to all of these different formats.

Then there is the creeping "globalization of labor" thing. I have a history of working with about 20 percent design, 80 percent production/corrections/preflighting/bringing in art and making it work, etc. That's a happy thing for me. But now if you work for a corporation -- which I love and need, the consistency, insurance, retirement and all -- they give the creative stuff to small one or two person freelance agencies and that is the "style" for the whole thing -- and it doesn't even have to be local freelancers, it can be from the internet with the whole global competition thing -- also, they're constantly trying to automate, routinize and dumb down the jobs as much as possible so they can have fewer people and pay them less.

When I help people out, I am not naive or messing myself over with this -- but it points me more toward management, writing for advertising or publicity, something like that, and designing for clients off the web in my "spare" time.

Which is not exactly where I wanted to be.

**Crossing fingers that my connections and mentors will come through***
**and experience will be good enough, and documented well enough, to take the step up**

Annnnndddddd that most of these attempts to dumb down and ship out these skills will fail, the way the previous attempts have failed.
Best of luck, Wombat!!

Congrats on the job, Greenbean! I don't see it at all as selling out. To whom are you selling out? You're getting decent money now, right? And illustration work can be done on the side, and if you don't feel like it, or don't have the time, you can pick it up when there is time, when you feel like it.
Even in my ex-mcJob in a clothing store i learnt things that are of vital importance in my own business. So i think there will be much experience/learning (let's not forget that male student!!) along the way. Go for it!

Keeping all parts crossed for you to get that job, Mouse! Do what feels right, even if that means, like you said, quitting your current job while not being sure about the future. Staying put at my McJob because i thought i needed the money bad hasn't done me any favours. Quitting there while not having quite the safety net was the best decision of 2006, in hindsight.

Can i request some vibes, please? My work got pre-selected for Luerzer's Archive "200 best illustrators worldwide" Can you believe it???!!!!! I hope to make it to the book. I have to submit more work..and then it's just wait and see. Colour me excited!!!!

Yesterday i was at a lecture about networking and it was really the boost i needed! At first there was a guy telling us about "Nieuwe Garde" , i don't really know how to translate that, but in short it's about creatives of all sorts getting together in doing projects. Like working 8 hours overtime for a good cause (making a radio-spot/poster campaign in 8 hours for free). He stated that networking events with drinks are fine, but you really get to know people and their abilities when working together, creating things, and thus creating bonds between people. They also have this project called "60 minute magazine" where people put together a magazine in 60 minutes. No one gets paid, but it gets lots of exposure and you meet new people. It's been a huge succes in Rotterdam, and other cities, so now it spreads accross the country like a good germ.

Second there was a guy talking about leaderless networks. He stated he doesn't have a proper education, has not had a steady job or welfare. He just connects people with eachother and as some sort of combination between karma and bartering he gains his wage. People donate money, for example. The network he is in consists of about 5000 people all giving and returning favors in a non regulated way. This guy looks for people who have several qualities, so the network remains and grows because people who are in it really care, are passionate and interested in other people and their qualities. This way a network is 'self cleansing'. It was really amazing. Like there was a man in the audience asking how he could earn a living by not being interested in money. "How did you get here then? By train? That costs money." The guy giving the lecture reached in his bag and showed a card which grants him unlimited access to public transport. He has discovered a real smart way of giving knowledge and ideas away instead of selling them, and then getting things he needs in return. It's not like swapping, because his ideas are still his, he doesn't really lose anything.
For me it was a whole new way of looking at my network, the people i know, even you guys here.

This man has a website, but unfortunately it's not yet in English. If it is, i'll let you know.

I signed up for "Nieuwe Garde" and working 8 hours overtime straight away. And i talked to a woman who coaches people how to deal with changes in the working environment and also personal training for people sho have their own business. She gave me her card and suggested we should get together, drink coffee. She seems like a real nice person, so i'm going to call her tomorrow. I also talked to a girl who organizes lectures in my town and she told me she saw my christmas card hanging at every design company she visited. I sent them all a card including the organization she works for. I feel this is going to get somewhere.

Sorry for the long ass post, but i just had to share.

Also; a book that i will order:"The Starfish and the Spider" about the power of leaderless networks.
Wow, thanks sonik!

~*~*~sonik in book! sonik in book!~*~*~

That networking you're talking about sounds like a great idea! It's been pretty difficult to support initiatives like that in Boston -- people keep trying and I guess I will try as well.

I am happy to have made some connections with some like-minded and friendly *sparkly* types, you know?

Boston can be full of suspicious, unhappy competitors in giant corporations, ancient Victorian buildings, lots of snow.

I see what they don't like here -- it's small and sentimental and dull and yet still so expensive to live in.

However, the traditional academic/book/literary scene, plus the fact that it's a great music scene, give me a source of hope here. Also, it's only a a short drive to the mountains or the sea! Or the farms.
wow, sonik, that's fantastic! my fingers are crossed for you smile.gif and what cool networking's so hard to find stuff like that here. i feel like illustrators are a really close-mouthed bunch, really wary of people taking their "secrets". it's a shame.

i applied to a couple other jobs. i really wanna put in my notice on monday.
when you quit your job, sonik, did you have anything else lined up? did you have a considerable amount of savings? if i quit i'll have enough to cushion me for about two months, but i don't want to go completely broke again by the time i find a new job....
Wow, it's the first time I've checked out this thread- cool to see so many illustrators/designers here! I'm just finishing my last semester in art school and thinking about the whole working full time/freelance/paying the bills stuff. I've got experience in products and print design but love the illustration the most. Any advice?
~*~*vibes for Sonic!*~*~

Welcome smarttart! I say give freelance a shot. Send out some kick-ass mailers and see if anyone bites. It is touch to pay the bills that way though cuz the work isn't very consistent until you've made a name for yourself. Good luck!
smarrtart, welcome! here are some links i've found helpful and/or inspiring:

don't expect freelance to pay the bills yet. but definitely devote your free time to it, and don't give up!
Thanks for your vibes, everyone!

Mouse, i had some money saved up, like 7500 eur, but a part of that i have to save for paying tax, with was 1600+ last year. I also got back a considerable amount of tax, but over here it takes years before everything is cleared. So if i have to pay something back, it's still pending. It's just something i keep in mind when saving.
I took a leap of faith, i don't know how long i'll last if i don't have assignments for a long time. I sensed a change in myself too; i think bigger now; i think(or at least try to) in possibilities instead of failure and 'what if'. But i must say that my agency does a lot of work for me.

I called the woman who invited me to have coffee and we'll meet up next week. Finally something is happening in my town. There will always be close mouthed clique-y types, but i'm going to look for other people who also really want to do things and make it work, hopefully. I hope that something like that will hapen in where you live, Mouse and Wombat. It's so refreshing when people are passionate about something without the constant feeling they have to hold back certain info, because it might be bad for business. In the end, everyone wins, because evryone cares. It's all about trust.

In the Netherlands there's a huge bunch of illustrators who are quite mediocre. I'm not being arrogant, but this group defines illustration in this country (i also heard this from others). Among this group are also people who take on jobs for almost no money. This pollutes the market. The country's just too small for such a huge group of illustrators. It also has to do with the social structures in this country. I think it's harder for illustrators/designers to survive than over here. You can take on a job for a couple hours per week and do drawing on the side and still make a living. Maybe there's too much 'hobbying' in the business. Hobbying is no prob per se but when it starts to affect prizes it's bad.

Smarttart, just go for it! Freelancing is tough, but i see promoting my work as a long term investment.
Thanks for the encouragement you guys!! Those are some great websites, Mouse. It's always good to be able to hear what other people's experiences are especially just starting out. I don't think I have unrealistic expectations, I'm just excited to be getting out of school and working!
Bad me..completely forgot to say..Nice illustration, Mouse!!

Good luck, Smarttart!
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