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Full Version: BUSTing Trolls, Part Deux
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...All gone?
LL, I cannot see anymore, it appears you got rid of trolly mctrolls posts!!!


Thank you so much. If any of us stumble across any more posts, we can just report them to you.

Again, thank you very much for dealing with this promptly. Greatly appreciated.

Thank you everyone who reported posts. Please continue to report any trolls. I've also bookmarked this thread, so you can post here too.

Happy lounging!
hey, LL can you delete this thread? steve created it more than 2 years ago, it's never been anything but a troll thread and every time he attacks it bubbles right to the top.


not to put y'all's business on blast, but it has been more than two freaking years with just that thread. we've been putting up with steve's attacks for even longer. i got an LL PM from debbie asking me what difference it would make to have mods, and 2+ years of steve is the difference.

really. it's been more than 2 years of this horseshit.

i don't see why we should bare the brunt of bust's insouciance.

i don't see why busties should have to put up with this kind of harrasment.

i don't see why bust itself would take this business so lightly.

while i appreciate the note from debbie, honestly, it's the same shit, different day. every couple of attacks some busties get really pissed off, start raising a stink about mods. i write an angry post or three, i get a note from debbie, i send her a reply and i never never hear back. WTF?

where is the fucking logic break down here? if the lounge isn't important enough to have bust really take a firm hand on trolls that attack it's members, if bust isn't all that concerned with the lounge's running, then why the hard resistance to mods? i don't get it. i honestly don't. i've NEVER heard a good rationale as to why we shouldn't have mods for this limited use. i doubt i will this time. it escapes me why there would be such an issue. if we had them we wouldn't be dealing with this some two+ years later. y'all know i'm more than happy to bite the hand that feeds me, so i'll not mince my words: what is the fucking problem?

two years later, and we still have steve's attacks. why don't we try it for a year, if it doesn't work, bust can always remove the mod designation. what is so scary about a trial period? in two weeks is the 4th of july. i'll bet dollars to doughnuts that steve will attack. if a year trial is too scary, why don't we try it for just one month?

all i am asking for is a troll-less lounge.

what is bust scared of?

Oh, two years is putting it very mildly!

When I joined in 2005, I was so annoyed by the trolling, several busties told me, that he's already been around for years.
Yes, in 2005, he's already been around for years!
The thing is that he is not just a troll, but a psychopath, who also gets worse, every time he comes back.

So really he has to go.

I do agree on the moderating, and maybe I'm a bit over the top, but there's a level of harassment, that would justify some sort of legal intervention.
Every internet service, whether it's google, or e-mail, or whatever, has terms of use, that state, that you're not allowed to abuse the service for harassing people and posting inappropriate content.
And the law of your country applies to you, too, when you use the internet.

QUOTE(girltrouble @ Jun 24 2008, 07:43 AM) *
hey, LL can you delete this thread? steve created it more than 2 years ago, it's never been anything but a troll thread and every time he attacks it bubbles right to the top.


As for the rest of your post, that is out of my jurisdiction. But I will pass the message along to Debbie just in case.
thank you very much. i do know that the rest is out of your jurisdiction, and i also want to make it absolutely clear that my bombast, my vitriol is not aimed at you. i think you are doing a fantastic job, and your attention to the lounge has been stellar. you are light years better than the LL that came before you. i really, really, really appreciate what you've done in just the last week. i know i'm a pain in the ass, but it's mostly because i love this place, and i think it's worth fighting for. but part of it is also, i'm just a pain in the ass. but know i do appreciate your work, and your willingness to listen. in my book you're aces!

one other suggestion for dealing with steve, why not block his isp?
I wouldn't want to inadvertently also block a bunch of BUSTies (or incoming BUSTies) with the same service provider. sad.gif

~ LL Lysa

QUOTE(girltrouble @ Jun 24 2008, 12:19 PM) *
one other suggestion for dealing with steve, why not block his isp?

silly me, i didn't mean isp.... oh god, my brain isn't working...his computer's adress... what's it called... damn. to early to take a nap or get a drink... dry.gif
I think you mean his IP address, GT?

Personally, I think all this discussion about what to do with him gets his rocks off - he likes the attention and he likes being "persecuted" for his beliefs because it makes him feel like a martyr to his cause. Why even give him the energy?

Trolling around here is NOTHING anymore compared to what it was in the old Lounge. (Anyone remember he-who-must-not-be-named? Phoning up the BUST offices and threatening to sue for defamation b/c he didn't like the busties' counterattack?) This guy is like an annoying but tiny mosquito buzzing around. The ignore button is like slapping him dead.

Not trying to negate the need to have his crap dealt with quickly and silently, but I think the bigger deal anyone makes of it, the more he comes around - that's the way he's always been. I think all it really needs is one person who cleans up the lounge every day - especially weekends, 'cos that's when the trolls do come out.
It's so easy to just refresh an IP address. I've squished the ones he used this time, but judging from the list of previously blocked IP addresses, this has been tried before. I'll continue doing what I can, and y'all can also use the ignore button. sleep.gif

~ LL Lysa
i hear what you say doodle, but really?

as pherber pointed out it's been more than 3 years, it's probably been more than 5. i'm not good with time so i have no clue how long i've been a bustie, longer than he's been trolling for sure, but i don't think us talking about ways to finally get rid of him will add any fuel to his fire. we've tried dealing with attacks and saying nothing, and we've had out loud discussions, but guess what? he still attacks.

the thing we haven't tried is bustie mods.

i still haven't heard a worthwhile explanation as to why bust is so averse to the idea. on one hand they seem to have no interest in putting any real energy in to the lounge, but they have these fucked up control issues. schizophrenic much? the end result is we take the fall. we're the ones who are ass out. other than LL, they really don't have to deal with it. they don't have to see it, they don't have to wade around his bullshit, and they certainly weren't the ones who were attacked. busties were.

i used to be a big fan of the mag, but to see the indifference the lounge has met, has changed my opinion of bust. to me the mag was high ideals, but the lounge is a bunch of brilliant women figuring out how to live that feminism on the ground, IRL. the lounge is women working out the thorny issues and trying to figure them out with a beautiful sense of humor and style. it just infuriates me that giving us this little thing, is so f-ing difficult for them. the idea that they would rather give space to anti-choice assholes, rather than take our side ought to make EVERY BUSTIE, AND BUSTY'S BLOOD BOIL, but that's what they've done time and time again. as i said, steve is hardly the issue for me, for me the issue is bust itself's attitude.

they need to check themselves and what they stand for.

this is not rocket science. it's simple. unless there is some earthshattering, nuclear holocaust, sign of the apocalypse reason against it, WE NEED BUSTIE MODS. PERIOD.
Again, I volunteer. If they'd have me, I'd mod my cold, black, shriveled heart out.

I want to protect this space! The nine months I wasn't able to post here I was kinda lost. For me, the Lounge is something of a "safe" place. I get my yayas out here. Even if Busties don't like me, they often still have my back in a pinch. And in a way, it *hurts* me when some assclown comes in here & acts like a fuck.

I do buy Bust. I pay the full cover price. And I usually buy two for my collaging. It's my contact with the outside world now. I support the magazine. But it's funny. Somebody attacks the mag or Debbie & shit is gone within an hour or two. We were assaulted for days before anything happened. Maybe this was cos that happened during the week & not over the weekend, but I dunno.
i've been a bustie for... good grief... 8 years? about that, anyway. there have been assholes doing the anti-choice crap at least that long. i still love the oh-so-brilliant donate to planned parenthood for every anti-choice post idea that someone came up with. that was awesome. i only wish i were in a financial position to join in!

i'm going to jump on the bandwagon here and say that yes, we do needs a mod or two. strictly for the purpose of removing highly offensive postings, such as what we just dealt with. yes, we do have the ignore button, which is a huge improvement over the old lounge, but the problem is, only registered users can ignore things. what if someone is surfing for info on abortions and comes across those crappy posts? i highly doubt they would join and contribute to our board if they see something that offensive. or if they do, it might be to just get into a flame war with the under-bridge dwellers, and then that clogs up the boards even more! (seen it happen a time or two.)

anyway, just adding my .02 here, if we're voting, my vote is for mods.
I do see everyone's points, I really do. I guess I just worry about where moderators are supposed to draw the lines in terms of banning people and deleting posts. Who decides? Under what terms? Is it two accusations and you're a witch troll, even though you might just be engaging in a rough and tough argument? And you all know how heated shit gets around here. There have been a few busties in the past (I don't get around the board so much anymore) I have thought of as downright crazy, who behaved, in my opinion, like jackasses on the board....but if other people were still engaging with them, would my accusation and those of my little "team" (or "clique," is probably a word some use) get that bustie banned, or his/her posts deleted?

I know Debbie has always said this board is about non-censorship, and that's part of the reason we've never had mods. I still think if there were just enough people to take care of the problem like our resident troll's spamming, then we wouldn't need real mods. Maybe it would take 1.5 interns instead of 1, so someone could do it on the weekends. I don't know. I'm just throwing stuff out there, trying to find a compromise that Debbie and the rest of the BUST team can conceivably and realistically manage. Does one troll really merit two moderators?
If the mods were restricted exclusively to deleting fake abortion pics and holier-than-thou Scripture quotes, and banning the usernames who posted them, then there wouldn't be unnecessary and intrusive moderation of inevitable misunderstandings, arguments, or public flaring of tempers between genuine Busties.

At least 2 mods would be good IMO, to allow for different time zone coverage. Also, no one person should be saddled with being wholly responsible for not stopping a trollfest that happened to occur the weekend that one mod was swamped with work or a medical crisis, or was out of town for a romantic weekend, or whatever.

No harm in a trial period, I think.
the problem with a trial period though, is that steve doesn't come around often enough (and please, dear maude, that was not an invitation!). what i mean is, steve will show up for about a week, get his jollies, and then crawl back under his rock for a few months. so a trial period for mods, if mods are indeed going to only worry about blatantly offensive abortion and scripture obvious trolls like steve, and not your run of the mill "this person seems sketchy, but are they really a troll or just stupid?" trolls, is how are we going to see the effectiveness of mods/no mods if steve's not active? and what about other types of trolls, like rl asshats stalking busties from their daily life to here specifically to harrass that one person, going to be handled, if at all?

i do agree that steve's a problem, and i think we need one or two longtime trusted busties with the ability to ban/delete his stupid ass as soon as he shows up. just, like i said, how are we going to test the theory if he's not active during the trial period. i think if we do have problems with other trolls, they're pretty well handled by active community policing, and if we have mods, it should be steve-specific only (and by "steve" i mean blatantly here to stir shit types, not just steve) .

look, i'm talking about it in terms of mods being STRICTLY for trolls. nothing else. and i think we've gotten pretty good at spotting them. it's certainly not hair trigger. most busties know if they have suspisions to post in the troll thread.

no one here has an interest in censorship-- particularly me. i love a contrary view. i think it adds to our understanding. we (or atleast i'm not) are not talking about mods as refs in threads between busties-- even when it gets heated.i've been on both sides of this and i think that would be a terrible idea. what we are talking about is mods for a targeted, specific purpose and nothing else. if they do otherwise, we can pm the LL, and select someone else. no fuss no muss.

and while i see what you are saying doodle, as i've said, to me the thing that is paramount, that is sacrosanct in the lounge is the conversations we have. my problem with steve is when he's around, every thread he posts in is damaged. the conversation is killed. troll warnings are posted, space is taken, time is wasted. i just think about the times i was trying to figure out things and posting something only to have the thread irrevokably sidetracked.

if it were being handled by bust i would have no issue, while i adore the new LL(and i do), her life shouldn't be about baby sitting. she's an intern. many of us are committed to the lounge. i think we should be able to handle this task reasonably. it seems silly to give us enough credit to be adults and figure out our interpersonal differences, but say we aren't mature enough to mod for a troll task alone.
how are we going to test the theory if he's not active during the trial period

Trial period starting xxx, to continue up to and including the next trollfest, then.

I can't be the only one who's been reading the lounge when a couple of these attacks have started, and it sure would be nice to have SOMEone who's around on weekends with the power to zap. GT's right about the disruption they cause and the time and energy that longtime Busties put into posting their troll warnings in every thread he shits in. (sorry I didn't join in, btw. I thought about it & decided I was too damn tired.)

It's not clear to me how, on balance, the granting of Steve-type-only zapping powers could possibly be more harmful to the Lounge than his shitfests.

/hugs gt
I'm not putting myself forward as The Zapper, btw. There are many Busties who've been here longer and have a higher profile and universal or near-universal good credit, who I know would be perfect for that kind of responsibility and trust.

Just saying that yeah, it's frustrating to watch the obnoxiousness start up on a Fri night and know that there are, best case, at least! 60 more hours of it until someone with the power to do something about it shows up. (Speaking of which, thank you for cleaning things up promptly from me too, new LL! You're terrific.)
I totally hear what everyone is saying, I honestly do. In truth, I wouldn't mind real mods myself. I guess where I'm coming from is this....this conversation has been happening for 10 years or more. I've been here for 6 years, and I've seen this convo happen over and over and over again, with a lot more people involved, a lot more heated discussion, and a lot more trolling that was a lot worse than this. One of the trolls was my real life harasser.

But the reality is that throughout all of this, Debbie has remained absolutely, rock-solidly firm on the no-mods rule. I've been here when Debbie herself was involved in those conversations. It's not going to happen. It really isn't. And what I'm trying to get to is maybe suggesting some alternatives that ARE workable - like my suggestion for allocating some intern time to the weekends. What is wrong with having someone at BUST itself checking in on the weekends for spam posts?

And there is an issue that does come up for me with the idea of bustie mods - I don't think I personally want to give one of my peers the power of deletion and banning, especially for something that happens three or four times a year. It is not that I think people aren't mature enough to handle it. I just don't like the power structure it sets up here, no matter how fair and impartial the mods are.
as i said, that's one of the things that bugs me. i've been around those discussions too, and i've never, ever heard a good rationale out of debbie or bust. if i heard one, i might be inclined to change my position. but in all those discussions you mentioned (and i'm pretty sure i've been here as long as you, doodle) i've not heard a real viable argument. if there was one, i'm sure debbie herself would chime in.

*sound of crickets*

yeah. ezzactly.

she pm'ed me on the first post i made on topic, and hasn't bothered to reply to my pm. not to be harsh, but you know i'ma say it, from near as i can tell, it's a power trip thing.

cos i don't recall there being one good reason other than the sort of "i'm the decider." argument. i would hope that debbie, OF ALL PEOPLE, would hate to see the magazine's supporters harrassed IRL, or on line if she could do something about it. but that is sadly not the case. time after time she's gone by wubya logic and done nothing, while busties suffer the brunt of her choice.

honestly, i am not really concerned with the how, and if we can get there without mods, that's fine by me. i'll be the first to say that the new lounge has gone a long way towards being troll free. i just think we can go the whole route. i don't see the downside.

i see what you are saying doodle, but as much as i like the self mod, i was talking to a bustie over the weekend, who i personally loved to see post, and she said she lurks, but she doesn't post here, because she thinks there needs to be mods. her point was that people are too quick to swarm on someone making a contrary opinion. i think we've all seen that, self modding has had it's share of collateral damage too. it's just not as visable. but that's NOT what we are talking about here. to veer off into that territory, only distracts us. it's not a real argument against it.

we've outlined the parameters of the mods we want, and i for one think we are adult enough to stick to it.
I guess I do see your point about mods - it can be a bit like Lord of the Flies in here. I just don't think we're going to get them, period, and I think if we can work out viable alternatives, then the power(s) that be might be more receptive.....
oh, seriously like lord of the flies.
and it didn't occur to me till she said it. but again, that idea of mods is for another day.

we are suggesting, to be more accurate, is troll clean up. perhaps our name for them is what trips us up. because if self modding is the sticking point, in truth, that's not what we are talking about.

we just want two troll cleaners. troll exterminators, troll fumigators, or whatever, but not mods.

as to your post tho, what are the alternatives?
i can think of none. we've tried everything i can think of, exhausted so many other possiblities, and here we are again.

there are none.

and debbie?

no where to be found.

troll fumigators


If enough of us got behind doodlebug's idea of a weekend intern or two, maybe they'd pay attention to that? I suppose interns may not want to commit several weekends to monitoring the Lounge though. I remember, last round, LL invited NYC Busties to become interns, and certainly that would be ideal. Bust would have an intern who liked hanging out at the Lounge already, and we'd have someone with the power to fumigate. However, everybody's already got busy lives and full commitments. I hope the powers that be will be willing to consider alternatives.

It just seems like such a waste to me, the fact that there are several Busties who already hang out here on weekends and could fzzzt! the parasite and his trail of slime without breaking stride.
This is a really tough one, I can see where everyone is coming from, and I could see things getting like lord of the flies in here.

It's like a double edged sword.

*deep sigh*

I just don't want to loose this place, I've made some really good friends, and I can come here and vent annonymously and and and.

Shut up, Piggy!

Sorry. LotF moment.

Cripes. This got a bit out of control & bogged down in language. As far as mods go, nobody wants to silence actual Busties. Just asshat. I doubt any of us save a few would get drunk with power & go nuts with censorship instead of just cleaning things up a little. That's all I want. No more disrupted conversations because fuckstick decided to post six times in a minute. No more fetus pictures. No more, well, no more motherfucking Steve.

It felt great to drop those cheques in the mail, though!

It's funny. I've been around long enough to know that this conversation is going to go nowhere, and yet, I still hold out hope.
you wanna know the funniest thing?

still no debbie.

as if i thought she'd actually bother to post.

see to me, if you've got a good reason for something, you should have the chutzpah to defend it. it shouldn't be something you avoid or ignore.....or hide from. she hasn't got a good reason why we shouldn't have mods a troll fumigator. she hasn't.

she didn't last time this subject was pushed, she hasn't now. for some reason she feels threatened by someone deleting steve's posts in a timely manner. steve. the bustie debbie likes most! after all, what this boils down to is her respecting his bullshit more than all of the busties who post here. thanks debbie! you're a real peach.

part of me wants to know why she finds a fumigator that so damn objectionable, but then i know there's not a reason.

there's not.

i think aural is right. nobody is gonna go crazy koo-koo nuts on deletion kool-aid round here. if we selected two busties for the task, i have no doubt that they have the respect for this space to do the job with integrity.

but i think the person without integrity is the person who has not shown up at this little shindig to explain her point of view.

it's soooooo much easier to hide.

and it's soooooo much harder to respect someone who hides.
I just have a question; first off, totally support the idea of "troll fumigators", but what about just the random weirdos, like the guys in the LTAS thread who make some misguided post about how to convince their girlfriend to get a boob job, or just lewd stuff. Usually they go away after a post or two when someone gives them a virtual kick to the balls....would that warrant calling in the fumigator? Or are we *just* talking about the mass postings from steve-o?
I'm just talking Steve. I generally verbally hand those other retards their balls because as you said, they go away after that usually. I thought about jackasses like Numbnuts, but once we got ignore he faded away like a stale fart.
I thought, that was the point from the beginning, someone just needs to clean up after steve, because those pics are too revolting and 300 posts a day. Nuts.
For any other troll, the ignore funtion (or some bitching) is totally enough.

I have btw, no worries, about anyone abusing their admin powers for anything else.
and actually i have no problem with the normal trolls. busties can handle regular trolls in their sleep. i actually think before they get out of hand they are very good for the lounge. really. go back and read old posts in this thread. they are a riot. reading them you get to see busties shine. witty, funny, silly and smart, it's everything i love about the lounge.

i just want the chance to finally get rid of steve. the difference is there is no talking to him. he doesn't care what we post, and he posts those stupid pix that take up space and derail threads.

i doubt after we smack him down three times he'll ever darken our door.

i think it's quite clear what we are talking about, and i don't think there are any reasonable objections.
so debbie...?

what's up?

do you actually have a reason why we can't or shouldn't have fumigators?

or are you going to keep pretending we aren't here?

come on. show us that there is a reason to have faith in you and bust.

Pherb, that is what the convo *was* about. Popping Steve. Like I said, it got bogged down in language. Using the word "mod" seemed to make some folks think it extended further than that, but it didn't. Nobody was *initially* talking about Bustie mod tyranny, but that's where it eventually went.

I'm just tired of the same old bullshit. I want some Bustie hacker to get me Steve's IRL address so I can leave a large flaming paper bag filled with my own doody on his porch. Or paper his whole house with pictures of happy women who made good choices for themselves that don't need the likes of his ilk.
I know, I've been following the whole thing, I was just wondering why some have such doubts about it. wink.gif

...and I totally second that GT, trollbashing make for the wittiest posts here.The lounge is like a virtual Algonquin Round Table on a good day.
I dunno. I thought we would all want to be rid of Steve. I didn't think the other stuff would even come up. Seriously. I know I wouldn't be fucked nine ways to Sunday if certain Busties got mod control. It's not something I'd even have considered.
Ok, I just wanted to raise the issue and make sure that had been considered. You're right- they post a couple of times and go away.

Like you said, it's these mass attacks that just destroy the functionality of the board.

and still no debbie. tsk.

really is a shame. for someone who believes people should have their say, i find it ironic that she dare'nt show her face in here....

is the idea of a weekend intern something that won't fly with the Powers That Be?

Steve's crapfests are suboptimal for Bust. They disrupt conversations and who knows how many potential new users he scares off. You're doing a terrific job cleaning up after him when you see that he's been by. Some of us think the cleanup process could be made better still (smaller lag time between crapping and cleanup). The weekend intern idea seems like it could be a reasonable compromise.

Could you please confirm whether or not our ideas have any chance of being adopted, or even considered?

I mean, should we bother hoping and trying, or are we just farting in the wind?
I don't know how likely a "weekend intern" is. Remember, we're not paid, and we're already given a lot of work. Maybe if an intern were assigned just to monitor the Lounge on weekends, but then what context would that intern have? And what motivation? People intern at the magazine, because they love BUST or want to learn about magazines in general. A weekend intern would be working from home... and that doesn't really feel like an internship, does it? Plus, you're not in an office, no boss is monitoring you, it's the weekend and you want to go hang out with friends....

I don't mean to stomp all over your plan. Just trying to explain from my perspective. I don't mind checking in on the Lounge if I'm around (no trips or family plans or anything else that would prevent me from being at my computer--where I am a lot of the time anyway), but I don't know how other interns would feel about that...

I should also point out that a lot of the interns (if not all) have other jobs. I work full time on Sundays, though I am usually on or near a computer so I can at least check in. Other people might not.

~ LL Lysa
We're farting in the wind. Fer reals.

I don't think we necessarily want an *intern*. The new LL's the first intern that's bothered to even communicate with us, frankly. For an intern this would be part of job responsibilities. So I don't think that's what we need. We need somebody that knows how the board *works* & has the time to kick the fucksticks out. Somebody *plugged in*, not somebody that's just doing a job for the good experience & their resume.

Like I said, I'm a perfect candidate for eviscerating Steve. I have nothing better to do than fuck over trolls. I have no desire to censor actual Busties. I just want my Lounge back without miscarriage pics.
i honestly don't think it's fair to ask an intern to check here on their weekends.

this fumigator we are talking about, requires a understanding of the lounge.

the problem, in my view with this discussion, is that we keep getting sidetracked with ideas/discussions of what we don't want or need. normally i love a good digression, a stray thought that leads to some place we never anticipated, but in this affair, i think if we are to press debbie in to even posting her rationalle, we must be single minded about this.

we are NOT looking for:
  • an intern
  • a mod
  • someone deleting posts other than steves
  • a content editor
  • a bustie watchdog
what we ARE looking for is simple:
  • a bustie (or 2)
  • familiar with the lounge
  • steve post exterminator
  • odd hours
i think we can all agree on this much. normal trolls can be taken on by busties, but when steve attacks our
trolligatortm would spring into action. otherwise they would not alter the lounge in any way.
and to keep this topic on track, can we refer to this person only as the

any objections busties?
if there no objections, i'd like to propose a poll among busties as to if they are for or against a bustie trolligatortm as outlined below.

L3? can you talk to debbie?

That I can do. I'll ask her about it Monday.

~ LL Lysa

QUOTE(girltrouble @ Jun 28 2008, 07:24 PM) *
if there no objections, i'd like to propose a poll among busties as to if they are for or against a bustie trolligatortm as outlined below.

L3? can you talk to debbie?

I'm wondering if even a demonstrated majority in favor of a trolligator would be persuasive enough to change long-standing policy. (As opposed to the poll being just an exercise in keeping the natives busy.) However, I should think positive, eh?

At any rate, LL Lysa,

you're fantastic. It's been said before but bears repeating.

It can be frustrating, posting comments about Lounge problems and getting no acknowledgment, much less a direct answer or rationale. Thank you for taking the time to reply to us.
meh. i get bugged by people who decide the end point of something is determined. that there is no point in working for something because of a past history.

progress is the result of action, of struggle.

inaction results in nothing changing. it was our discussions that brought bust to this board, probably because they were tired of us bitching about trolls. this is no different. had we not said anything, had we done nothing, we would still have tons of trolls, the old system and i'm sure that the lounge would be a much poorer place.

lately i have been getting into labor history, and you find out so many things-- like the 40 hour work week-- things we take for granted, were the result of people raising their voices, willing to do something, and in that case people had to die to make things better.

but here we are, with something that requires so little, and we want to give up for why? it's an issue if we make it an issue. and as much as i rip on debbie, she did move the lounge here, so there is some wiggle room, she is not unreasonable, but it must be something we feel strongly enough about to push. otherwise....

more steve.

but at the end of the day, as are so many things, this is up to us.

I smell something in LTAS.
Update: Debbie looks super busy at her desk. I sent her an e-mail, and if she takes a break for food or air, I'll ask her about it. ph34r.gif

~ LL Lysa
take your time L3. thanks for the help.
Update: Debbie said she will think about it and try to respond soon.

Update: Not sure, but poll seems unlikely at this point.

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