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Sorry, cloverbee. I guess I should have picked a different way to describe what I meant to say; there's definitely a difference between shopping at wal-mart out of necessity and buying loads of unnecessary plastic kid-crap there just because it's cheap and convenient, which is clearly indicative of a larger social problem too (depending on things and tv to entertain your kids instead of teaching them to make their own fun using their imaginations). In trying to make a point that having more kids than is healthy for the planet is actually MORE selfish, long-term, than choosing to remain kid-free, I offended you, and I'm really sorry about that.

I stand by everything else, though wink.gif
and i agree wink.gif
Yeah, I've never understood the idea of "childfree = selfish". I mean, I almost think it's a holdover from WWII where people were basically told they had to replace the lives lost; therefore bringing about the baby boom. At least that's my memory of what caused the boom. Or maybe it was just rampant horniness; who knows?

Now that we have the option of not overwhelming our already strained resources, it's selfish to not make an effort? I don't get it.

An aside, too. Something happened to me (or rather, I found out something) that reminded me of a conversation we had in this thread a few weeks back about child-free housing developments. I ran into the woman who sort of arranges social events and I asked her about whether we have a trick-or-treating thing on Halloween for the kids in the building. I found out there are NONE in the building. When I responded incredulously, she said, "well, there is ONE person who's technically not an adult, but he's a junior in high school"

My condo building consists of 93 units; a fairly large building. There was nothing in the condo documents/rules about children. Best I can figure is there's no playground and not much in the area to attract families. So while my building doesn't out and out discriminate, there's no kids here. No wonder it's so quiet!!!

And our building is security no trick-or-treaters from other places in the neighborhood either.

So I guess I don't have to buy any Halloween candy. <sob>
That is kind of sad, treehugger, since Halloween is one of the few times I enjoy children.

My friends and I had this big conversation about remaining childfree yesterday. We're all in agreement that we mostly like the kids we're related to, but partially only because they're related to us. It was so nice to have a childfree day yesterday, especially since I had another freakin' baby shower on Saturday. This one was more casual than the one last weekend, so there were husbands and children there. After awhile it was just too much. I don't mind the twin daughters of my BGP, but there were some other people there with kids who I don't know as well and they were really getting on my nerves.

I was sort of trapped in a corner with the kids because I wanted to sit next to my BGP (because other than Le Boy, I didn't know or like anyone else there.) and this little kid, who's just learning to pull himself up, kept using my pants leg to do so. The father just sat there, "oh he's so cute!" Bite. Me. Stop your kid from groping my legs or I might *accidentally* have a leg spasm and kick him. smile.gif He was just one of those little kids who seems to have a layer of slime on them and i didn't want him touching me. Ick.

At one point, the 2 or 3-year old son of these people I didn't know decided to play under the pool table. The kid stood up underneath and bonked his head hard on the table. He started screaming- I felt bad for him because it looked like he banged it really hard (no cut or blood or anything) and I know how much that hurts, but the kid had the most annoying wail and the father of course brought him back to the area where we all were sitting rather than take him off somewhere else, so I had to sit and listen to this wailing child for the next few minutes. Ugh.

I don't think I know anyone else who's pregnant, so I think I'm safe for awhile. Oh, wait, Le Boy's other cousin is pregnant, but this is her second and she lives in North Carolina, so I think I'm safe from having to go to another shower.

My childfree friends and I also talked about how irritating it is when people let their kids annoy the shit out of you and you're the bad one if you say something to them or, worse yet, the kids. So aggravating. They've been to Europe and talked about how much better the culture is- it's not as kid centered and kids actually know how to behave in public. People don't let them run around or scream uncontrollably.
We don't get trick or treaters in our building either. That's the downside of city/condo living - there's not much door-knocking going on.

polly, I think I would have lost it at that baby shower too - probably what would've gotten me was the grabbing of clothing...I do not want sticky fingers anywhere near my clothing, and worse, you were probably dressed nicely for the occasion too. I don't want dogs on my furniture either, so its the same for kids and pets, with me.

My friends living in Ireland say the same thing about child behavior, and they say that there are often kids at the pubs with their families, but you never hear a peep out of 'em...unless they're american. It definitely feels like a cultural thing...but its a much more family-oriented way of life there too - with children more often living close to parents, with grandparents helping more with child-rearing, and with greater time off for vacations and such, I just feel like its an overall saner life, and that parents have more time to *be* parents there. I'd love to move overseas and get a different perspective...its one of my childfree fantasies.
the worst is booger headed kids. the kids that are just ALWAYS drooling and having green snot and boogers run down their face all the time. then their hands are all nasty and sick too. i babysat for a kid like that, he was always sick! i felt bad for him, because he clearly had some allergies or something and his parents were just like la la, isn't he SO CUTE! he wasn't a cute kid, and he was sooo boogery. i stopped sitting for him. it was just toooo grody.
My friends, who were in Italy, say that the parents pouring a little wine into the the kid's water didn't hurt either. wink.gif I think it was a little wine into the water and not the other way around.
dear ambercherry, cloverbee, turbojenn, tatiana, kelkello, lucizoe, treehugger & anyone else who may have read my post:

thanks for ALL your remarks. it made me feel comforted to feel surrounded by other like-minded people. i appreciated hearing that others have also gone through what i've recently been feeling. i also want to thank those that pointed out some great ideas/concepts such as turbojenn, tatiana and lucizoe. i can only hope bringing back this discussion can help many more than just myself.

ambercherry - not to worry, i didn't take what you said like you were telling me how to feel or how to label it. i actually admire women who make either decision (to have or not to have).

thanks for the kind words cloverbee...even though i know not to be hard on myself, its always good to hear it coming from someone other than myself.

turbojenn - i, too, have been having a much easier time lately on freeing myself from the "ticking clock". its the only way to be, i feel, so i thank you for sharing your thoughts.

lucizoe - i appreciate your pointing out how either decision can be seen as "selfish". you wrote a great response and i hope you don't mind if i share it w/ others in my life.

for all of you that thought i should let go of that word - selfish - and for those of you like myself (kelkello) that could relate for feeling that way.....i want to thank you for the new outlook. its going to help me let go of using that word to describe any decision i make, at least pertaining to having kids or not.

have a great night busties!
martoocha xo
Even if it is selfish, who cares? It's not selfish in a way that negatively affects anyone else, not in a direct way, at least. I ate some candy earlier, that may have been selfish, but whatever.
You know you probably shouldn't have children when...

Your little brother calls to say he's going to be a father, at which point you ask if he's going to keep it, THEN proceed to calculate the approximate birth timing only to discover it might coincide with your grad school graduation, at which point you become bitter.

lol, speaking of selfish!... Am I a horrible person?

I'm in shock and denial right now. He's 22. It's just wrong. I can't deal. unsure.gif
Ugh, faerietails, you're not a horrible person. I hope he and the mom have a good support system in place.

Ugh, again...that totally bites and I would be upset too...

oh, god you know he's going to be asking you to babysit!
I keep waiting for this crazy customer at work with the fattest, most hype pug on earth to ask me to babysit for her. My coworker got to do it.
So, you may or may not know by the time you read this, I kind of went off in the Sin Bin tonight/this morning. Well, no. First, in response to some commentary about this thread that I found troubling, I tried what I thought was a fairly eloquent defense of our right to speak openly in this thread, even though it might seem hurtful to parents at times. But then I got slammed for it, or rather, this entire thread got slammed. So I went off.

I feel like I've opened a can of worms, or worse. But goddamn it, I was so pissed off. I'm sick of people taking everything so fucking personally. And the whole thing was just an example of what we spend half our time talking about in the people think we're the haters and the weirdos because we don't want kids, and because we actually talk about the reasons why instead of hanging our heads and pretending we're just infertile.

Anyway, I don't know how it will play out. I fear it might move over here and play out in this thread. I hope it doesn't. I know we all treasure this as a safe space, and I apologize if we lose that for awhile because of me. I hope we don't...I hope this thread is allowed to remain a safe discussion space for childfree busties and our allies.

A friend of mine, who is a woman of colour and also a sister/colleague in the women's movement, has said to me more than once, "I am so sick of watching white women cry." Usually she is speaking in the context of white women becoming disruptive and making it all about them during anti-oppression workshops. And you know, the longer I live on this planet, the more I really, really get what she is saying.
Doodle, I think your post was very thoughtful, measured, and passionate in your explanation and defense of the CBCers in here. This is our safe space to vent. That's it, and that's all. And yes, we do often vent about the children who do annoy us, but if that's our honest thought about one particular situation, then this is our space to talk about it. Its not meant to be offensive to anyone who chooses to bear the awesome responsibility of raising a child in this challenging society....its just our own reaction, and oftentimes a realization of - "oh thank goddess, I've made my own decision, because I don't know how *I* would handle a child melting down in the middle of the grocery store/restaurant." Because, seriously, I *don't* know how to handle that, and I choose not to find out.

And parents are welcome in here too, as moxie and damona and others have made valuable contributions to the discussion...but they've all also come here with respect for us and our choices too, and that's pretty cool.

So that's my thoughts for the morning...and now....back to my website that blew up. sad.gif
QUOTE(hellotampon @ Sep 19 2006, 09:20 PM) *

Even if it is selfish, who cares? It's not selfish in a way that negatively affects anyone else, not in a direct way, at least. I ate some candy earlier, that may have been selfish, but whatever.

I think it is incredibly selfless.

So I'm not planning to be CBC forever, but I am for now. Last week, at my grandfather's wake, a number of my mother's cousins lamented that my poor mother has reached 50 without grandchildren, in front of me (my brother is single and young). Then, during the funeral the next day, in my father's eulogy, he said something about how his FIL (my grandfather) was always "so good with my grandchildren," and my mom interjected, "you don't have any grandchildren."

My parents are really good about this sort of thing (when I told my mom that her cousins had plans for my uterus, she told them to shut up) and it wasn't intentional, but man, there is nothing like a public shaming!

Doodle, again, you have shown yourself to be the thoughtful honest, brave woman we all know and love. Kudos for representing your life and your felings!

I admit, sometimes the rage against all "breeders" (and I know its not really directed at thoughtful parents) irks me a bit, but I tend to be irked by general rage being directed at any general population b/c of some thoughtless acts or scenes.

I'd like to be a mother who appreciates the choice we each make. I also try to keep the basic pol;iteness of society in mind when we're out with our daughter. You all have really helped me keep that in mind. So, thank you.
i'm going over to check out sin bin, but i have to say-i don't see this anti-mom thing or rage against parents, and calling parents breeders-I mean, a few people say those things, but it's a very small minority. i thought people were using the word breeder in a joking way. i'm sure it feels different to moms than it feels to me, but I really don't see any thing more than people blowing off steam....which we all do in lots of threads....
I did it again.

I'm so sick of this bullshit.
hey doodle-you are doing a great job of explaining (which i REALLY appreciate), but at this point, yeah, just let it go. this whole thing is just showing the need for this CBC thread! kind of freakishly ironic or some shit.... it shows that this safe space is needed. i think that if pepper (and others who feel offended) read this whole thread or at least several pages of it, that'd make a huge difference. it's too easy to take a quick peek and judge something, or misunderstand the context. but yeah, you don't need to explain to everyone what we experience, if they wanna know, they can come in here and read, and ask respectful questions.

Doodle, you once again handled a situation with a grace that humbles the rest of us! I think the sin bin just got a little personalized and out of hand, through no fault of yours.

This seriously is our safe place. Personally, I don't have any place else I can discuss the things we discuss in this thread and recieve any understanding. We come in here to complain about the pressure the world placed on those of us that have choosen not to have children. If you have children you can't really relate to our plight.

I love seeing responsible loving parents! I think that is awesome, though that life is just not for me. And wish more people would realize that is okay.

*wonders off wishing I was as elegant and tactful as doodlebug when I put my thoughts in a post*
Doodle, can I just hire you as my personal spokeswoman? "My client has no comment at this time" "My client has very strong feelings about that chocolate cake" "My client has no interest in your sticky-handed, booger-faced children."

It's too bad the purpose/intent/message of this thread has been misconstrued. I don't really understand how. Trust me, I know humanist- she may joke about eating/selling/buying children, but I'm almost positive she wouldn't actually do it tongue.gif

I completely support and understand people who have a deep instinctual need to have children, be it their own biological children or adopted and in most cases, I understand people who go to extreme lengths with fertility treatments (my BGP did it, you'd better really want those kids after the hell you have to go through to have them!) My problem is with the kid-centered society we have, and the hypocriticalness that co-exists with that..."no child left behind", "it takes a village", yada yada yada and in the meantime, there's kids being abused, neglected, living in abject poverty, etc., while we sit back and talk about how little Timmy needs to go to private school and have expensive shoes and his own cell phone. My problem is with people who see parenting as a burden and a part time job, who let the nanny deal with it (or worse, leave the kids by themselves while they go out.) My problem is with a medical community that wants to treat me in a constant state of "pre-pregnancy" with no room for "no way that's going to happen and it's none of your damn business why!" Argh.
Yeah, I think I'm done. Thanks for the support, gang. I'm so unbelievable frustrated by this, and moreso by that old fallback position that I just can't possibly understand anything about the life of a parent (or anything else, really) because I'm not a parent. I hate it when people rely on circular arguements - it's like arguing with a religious zealot: "The bible is true because the bible says so." Huh? I'm so tired. I'm so done. I have so much other shit to do. Anyway, thanks, y'all.
*giggles at polly's first sentence*

doodle, you did a great job at articulating yourself, i must say. much better than i could've!
Oh effing hell. SOMEBODY please nail my hands to the floor so I will stop posting in that thread.
*tap tap tap* *nails doodle's hands to the thread floor with lovely little green and purple tacks*

Doodle, you do us all proud. I wish I had something more thoughtful to say about it, but its just simply are such a bringer of light and personal truth.

...I'll be 'round later, as I reassemble our org's website all evening. *sighs at the oppression of being the childfree, overly responsible and underpaid employee*

If this web debacle has taught me one thing...its that I'm worth more than I'm being paid, I'm burnt out, and I'm gonna get my resume ready for better things!
turbo, you are a goddess. I *heart* you muito bigtime.

And I *heart* all of you also.

I'm so tired and still sooooo busy. This is just such bad timing for me to be in a "fight" in the Lounge....someone else's turn now! I'm done. I really, really, really mean it this time. See? turbo has nailed my hands to the floor. With green and purple tacks!

*pulls off halo and flings it into the bushes*
Hello CBCers! Just popping in to say that I hope things will smooth out ... I think it's important to have a space to be CBC without judgement. I was a CBCer for 35 years, after all smile.gif

Can I comment on ginger kitty's statement that since I have a child I can't understand? Now that I'm a mom I'm obviously not in the same camp as you all but I'm guessing that I was CBC longer than most of you have been alive! Let me tell you that "pregnancy brain" or "mom brain" is not a myth ... but still, I think I can think well enough to remember and safely say that I can relate to most of the issues discussed here (working overtime, the endless questions of "when will you have kids" etc.). Anyway my point is ... I think that there is more common ground than not. I hope so anyway.
Ugh, doodle. Well said. And thanks, because if I'd gotten involved in the mood I've been in this week, I would have wound up banninated, I just know it wink.gif

What - exactly - are people expecting to see when they come into this thread? Advice about how to get our free babysitting businesses off the ground? Ways to help make nice restaurants child-friendly? The pay-pal account where we all donate all that extra money we have to some kid's college fund? Fuck.That.Noise.

This is a specific space. Period. Much the same way I don't go into survivor's space or the religion threads or most of the media whore's not my place and I know it. (Not in any way to compare survivor's space with this thread...but y'all know what I mean)...

Anyway, if people think that THIS thread is bad, I'd hate for them to see the livejournal and ezboard communities where every single mother is a "fat moo" and every father a "clueless duh" and "a wallet" and they think that all mothers' vaginas swing loose like saloon doors and that they are responsible for everything bad in the world.

But, what? We don't want to have kids and think overpopulation is problem and that more thought should go into people's decisions to reproduce, so we're the board baddies? Fine.

I'm having a cocktail now, and then I'm going to celebrate Mr.Luci's vasectomy, again.

ya know, pepper is cool, and i don't think she meant to start up a shitstorm, or to offend anyone. i just don't think there was any malice or anything behind it.

so, back on topic sorta smile.gif i'm such a weirdo, cause i really want the family i babysit for to have another baby. she had a miscarriage about a year ago, which is super sad, but i'm so selfishly excited! the little guy i sit for is 3.5 and i need some baby time. i'm like sending them fertility vibes.

luci, i'm so jealous of your mr's snippage. just like i am about treehugger's tubal ( i feel like i've written about her tubal in like 5 different threads) tongue.gif rolleyes.gif

i'll just keep rubbing my iud (through my belly, that'd be sorta weird if i stuck my hand up there to rub it). i'm still trying to think of a good name for it, like some kind of anti-fertility goddess or something.

i think i might stumble over to the drunken thread.... cool.gif
QUOTE(maddy29 @ Sep 22 2006, 01:50 AM) *

i'll just keep rubbing my iud (through my belly, that'd be sorta weird if i stuck my hand up there to rub it). i'm still trying to think of a good name for it, like some kind of anti-fertility goddess or something.

That cracked me up. It's only two weeks from now that I will be getting my IUD! Woohoo! I am very very happy abouy this, but I am also scared SHITLESS of the procedure and of the sideeffects.

Also - the IUD is fucking expensive! It's almost 400$ for the Merina IUD; even with my school's drug plan, I don't exactly know how I will be able to afford it.

I hope I get over this flu bug I have right now too.

Hi all....I'm exhausted from work as well as from this, so I'm just gonna lay this out here, and maybe it's O/T, but I don't think it is, because we are talking about our experience as a marginalized group of women. And I don't want to keep doing this in the Sin Bin, so I'm gonna offload it here. In our safe space. smile.gif ETA: I don't want to seem "stuck" in this, but I think I just needed to clarify it in my own mind, and in words. I hope it doesn't come off as petty....I'm really just trying to make sense of what just happened.

I do agree with chinichin (hello, my iron maiden sister!) that it's not fair for us to say moms can't understand our position (yes chin, I realize that's not quite what you said, but I think it's safe for me to interpret it that way for my own nefarious ends), any more than it's fair for a mom to say we can't understand her position, which is exactly what just happened to me in the Sin Bin today. Frankly, I'm still pretty hurt from that, and I don't think we should be quick paint "the other side" with the same, hurtful brush. Every individual is different...I think there are people in the world who can manage great empathy for, and willingness to learn about, many "foreign" situations, and people who can't, which is a big part of the reason why we still have racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. It's up to all of us to decide which one we want to be.

For what it's worth, I don't think pepper is a bad person either. I like pepper and I think she's a passionate individual and a kick ass feminist. But I am still pretty hurt by what happened in the Sin Bin - it's probably because I like pepper so much that I feel this way now. I don't necessarily want to rehash what happened, but I do want to say something about it. From my perspective, I wrote a pretty heartfelt plea to the general group asking for respect for our "safe" space, and said that basically we discussed things the way any marginalized group does when they're alone together in a safe space. What I got was a heated response from pepper that said I was projecting, and that I, and all of us in CBC, are haters - and that IS what the response said (along with other choice words like "vicious," "venom," "intolerance," and "sucky attitude," and also some other pretty snidely phrased rhetorical questions and comments). And yeah, I perceived it as an attack, and I do think it was malicious, even if it wasn't intended to be. And I'm not going to get over it soon. I'm a pretty big forgiver and forgetter, but that just seemed really uncalled for, and the way it was done seemed really...I don't even know the word for it. At the time, I seriously wondered if it was fueled by alcohol or something. And as I said, I'm pretty hurt, and angry, too, and forgiving and forgetting isn't coming to me right now.

I don't know what else to say about it. I don't want to feel this way. I don't want to be a bustie who slips away into my little clique and avoids people who get my back up. I don't want to be a bustie who puts other busties on ignore! And I'm not going to go to that extreme. But I'm not feeling like I can just move easily past what happened, either. I think it kind of goes back to what I said above, about people who can have empathy and people who can't. Pepper basically said outright that she refuses to have empathy for our CBC positions, where I feel I really made an effort to be respectful and empathic with regard to mothers-by-choice, as I always try to do. I understand how people react when they are confronted with their privilege, and I try to give them a lot of leeway. But how much room can you be expected to give if there's an absolute refusal to extend reciprocity?

I feel weary. I feel weary in the way I feel when I try to address men with their invisible male privilege. I feel weary in the way I feel when I see white women taking up space in an anti-oppression workshop. I feel sad, and hurt, and angry, and disappointed, and like the shine has been taken off something.

Anyway. I don't want to dwell on this. I'm not writing it for sympathy, or for people to "take sides" or even for people to take "my side." Part of me just wants to delete this post and go back to kicking myself for being too heavy-handed! But I needed to get it down somewhere in the Lounge what I'm feeling after all that, and I can't go back to that thread right now. Mainly because these little green and purple thumbtacks of turbo's have me pinned to this thread. smile.gif
I thought you were being very even-handed. I dunno...I don't find this thread hateful at all. I hope it works out and settles down soon, doodle.
Oh yeah. I actually did put my finger on what it is that's been niggling in my brain. And posted it. And now I'm really done. Promise. Good night all my sweet CBCers.
So, yeah, another shitstorm and this time it's in our own space. First time for me, personally.

And i've sat here now for like five minutes with total writers block. There's so much to say that there's like a bottleneck. I am tired, too. And I thank you, Doodlebug, for stepping up and being our spokeswoman.

I am SO. FREAKING. TIRED. of being called a "hater" because of a personal choice. When I chose to just deal with my anger at men in general, and not have relationships with them, I was considered to be a "manhater". Now that I've solidified my childfree decision beyond the point of return, I'm considered to be a "childhater". Really, all the wonderful women who inhabit this thread, I feel like I know many of you and would invite you into my home for a beer...we're the big bad wolves of the Bustie world and little red riding hood better darn well hide because everybody knows we'll hide behind a tree and chop her into little bits.

I was never a mother, yes. Big hairy deal. I WAS a child once.

And I still enjoy certain children. Not all of them, it is true. I don't enjoy kids who pull dog's tails or hit other kids or purposely break things. Or any other typically nasty behavior.

I love Halloween and seeing all the cute costumes and doling out candy (the BIG bars no less) and I also enjoyed just being that weird old lady who lives alone who has the great garden and doesn't mind if a kid picks a flower for his/her mom. The old lady who will look up from the yard and smile at a kid walking by and will try to be the objective friend that many of them don't get from their parents.

I'm going to miss that, living here in the city now.

But I guess I'm just a bad, evil childhater because I post here in this thread and I don't want to spawn my own version of myself and because I think there are too many children in the world now and we are short enough of natural resources and I'm doing my own little bitty, selfish part, to leave a lighter footprint on the earth.

And because I write run on sentences sometimes.

I love my evil, bitchy CBC'ers!
QUOTE(treehugger @ Sep 22 2006, 11:32 AM) *

I love my evil, bitchy CBC'ers!

Yeah! We're all the Witch from Hansel & Gretel, the Evil Stepmother in Cinderella and the Wicked Witch from Snow white rolled into one!

I personally don't like children. I just find them irritating. And I like having a space where I can say that without fear of reprisal, because it is such a taboo in our society to voice that opinion. I'm not evil, I believe all children should be wanted, safe and well-cared for, but I can't be bothered to be around them; ergo, I keep myself well away from anywhere they might be. Fair enough, surely?

I just have this to say... it isn't going to be helpful or enlightening, but I like this thread. Over the past year or so I've been internally debating whether or not I want kids (I'm only 20, so this isn't an immediate-future decision) and reading this thread and realising that there are other people out there who don't want kids - and aren't going to have them has really helped me see that I don't have to have kids if I don't want them.

And besides, I would be a terrible mother... I enjoy kids but only when I want to be around them. And even then, I want to be able to give them back when I've had enough, you know?

*goes back to lurking*

You ladies are fucking funny. Fer serious. I haven't ventured into other threads, with minor exception, for ages and when I saw the brouhaha in the Bin, I had to come looking because I am a serious voyeur like that. tongue.gif Levity is important.

I have a squeezebox--most of you already know that. I also have a family that is indignant about me not wanting to breed anymore. Seriously. I told my Mom that I wanted a ligation when I am 35 (a mere two years away) and she acted like I just acted out the scene from the Exorcist when Linda Blair is fucking herself with the crucifix. That kind of blew my mind. I tell them that I have 130 children of my own at school everyday and that's way more active parenting than they could manage to handle. I love them like my own--I wish some of their parents did as well. sad.gif I don't think my uterus and what I chose to do with it is a pure definition of me, or any of us.

Honestly, I couldn't imagine doing it again. It's hard. It's a ravage on your resources. It's emotionally stressful, even under the best of circumstances (none of which I am familiar with...I am a single parent and I personally find it ideal for me because her father and I are oil and water). And yep, there are people that ought not to be breeding. I teach, and I see it every day. Mostly, I see a lot of self-hatred embedded in a society that cares not a whit for ANY of it's resources.

And you know what? Sometimes you do have to laugh to keep from crying because it is difficult. Especially if you are a parent of a child that has special needs or emotional issues. And especially if we feel like (or are made to feel like) we have let down the important people in our lives because they think we aren't "women" if we haven't pushed the burrito out of the chooch.

We would like to view our children, and other people's children, as reflections of ourselves, but that isn't always the situation. We all have free-will...uh, my kid will probably be the most kick-ass feminist ever. She is having a good start at rabble-rousing these days and she's only in kindergarten. Read: my kid gets into trouble because she has tripped-up wiring in her brain (sensory integration disorder). Sometimes I cry, but it isn't because I am emotionally incapable of taking care of her. Sometimes I cry because I feel like the hordes are watching and criticizing my choice, my child, and me. Sometimes I cry because I worry about my choice to bring her into a world with so many awful fucking problems and hatred. Sometimes I cry because I am human, and that's normal.

But yet, it seems that childfree, or with squeezling, women are going to get fucking criticized. It's a convenient whipping post for a lot of people. I do give a shit what people choose to do with their own wombs, because if you follow the trail all the way to the end, we all need someone to care about us--whether they are our own, or someone else's. I see a lot of BUSTie aunties in this joint and I want to kiss you all. There are so many CBC's on these boards who do other things to help take care of other's children (of ALL ages) in one way or another (either by militant protesting for environment, women's health issues, protecting Roe v. Wade, teaching, or simply by taking care of someone who's got a squeezebox and needs support now and then as a friend). You are all my partners, since I don't have one. BY CHOICE. wink.gif

If I ever see people obsessed to this extent by where men stick their cocks or how well this society is taking care of ALL of it's citizens, I'll shit a gold brick. Until then, I'll educate my boys in my classroom and hope that something good comes of it. I hope that my girls all realize that breeding is a choice and not mandatory activity.

Keep up the good work, CBCs. *mwah*
gfcΩi vb fcxlkbn v.hhx—¨Ó¿˝ÁÏv
gggggggggggggggggggggggcv 1

translation: ladies, i hope to be cool like you sumeday. moxette
word. doodle.....and minx as well. very nicely put.

here's an odd story but it fits well in here...

i got a phone call from an old aquaintance...he wanted to date me, i said no....thus 'acquaintance'...anyhoo...he always is asking when me and the mr. are gonna have kids. i say its not gonna happen.
he says 'you don't want them?'
"and he doesn't want them?"
to which he'm trying to have like 50 or which i proceed to ask 'why?' to which he has no reason at all....but by the end of the conversation where i hung up on him, he had offered his sperm donation/services to me. thanks.

its not everyday you get a sperm donation. i told my classmate eva and we laughed our asses off. cuz she's CBC too.
deschatsrouge sounds like this guy is a Warren Jeffs wannabee
Sorry everyone....I posted again in the Sin Bin, but then I deleted it, after getting a PM from turbo, who was acting as my beacon of sanity. So I just want to come in and *heart* turbo, and thank her, and say that I promise to stick those little green and purple thumbtacks in my hands again, permanently, as far as that whole thing goes.

Ok. I'm glad I don't have kids because....I can keep all my poisons under the sink and not worry about it.

I'm glad I don't have kids because....when I'm cranky, there's no one to take it out on but myself.

I'm glad I don't have kids because....when I act crazy, I don't have any impressionables to witness me being crazy, and then have to spend decades in therapy.

I'm glad I don't have kids because....I get to eat all the ice cream myself!

Selfish? Sure! What the hell!
You are so very very welcome, doodle...we've got to stick together, right?

*reinserts pruple and green tacks, and gives doodle a fruity adult bevvie with a purple curly straw*

And doodle, you just reminded me that i have to move all the poisons under my sink when I get home, as I will be fairy dogsitting for my friends' pugs this weekend, and my cabinets have no doors, for I must have the ability to see and grab everything at all times.

Uh....I'm glad I don't have kids so I all weekend on this stupid website?! No, wait, that's not a good one!

...Dammit, I'm going with the ice cream, slathered in homeade nutella, thankyouverymuch.

hahaha poisons under sink:)
Seriously, like someone said before, this thread is SO NOT offensive compared to some of the livejournal communities I've seen. I'm actually in one of the LJ communties and have gotten into arguments with people who think that women shouldn't be allowed maternity leave, assistance, etc. So I'm not even going to waste my energy feeling like an asshole just because I post in this thread and people who have their own parenting issues might be offended by it.

Turb, I am so jealous of you that you get to pugsit! It sounds like a dream come true!
That's ridiculous- I have no problem paying my taxes for schools and other child-related costs (money for the city to build playgrounds, and social programs for kids, etc.) as long as it's being spent wisely. Whether or not I want to have kids myself doesn't mean I want to deprive OPC of a good childhood, or deny mothers (and fathers) any resources they need to raise their children properly.

I'm not sure how extremists like that plan on having the human race continue, but I'd like to see that plan! rolleyes.gif
*hugs for all the childfree busties*

Yesterday when I commented on a parent not understanding what we go through, I think it was more of a direct response to something I read in one of pepper's posts that was stuck in my mind. I went back to find it:

"women who choose to parent are viewed as a "normal" and "acceptable" women"
this is not the reality that i experience at ALL as a parent.

I was just thinking well you have kids, so no one harasses you with endlessly with

Why don't you have kids?
When are you going to have kids?
What do mean you don't want kids?
Oh, your young, you still have time...
Oh you'll change your mind.... etc, etc......

I am so used to being treated like an alien for never wanting kids, that I just felt she probably couldn't relate b/c she is proud mother. And a few other busties had commented about being on the fence about kids and not understanding why it was hard to be CBC, and I just kind of thought, well they probably don't get hounded like, I personally do for saying I definately never want kids. It's a sore subject for me, I guess.

That being said, props to doodlebug, again for representing us so well.
Doodle, too, I wanna say thanks for representin' so well! You have such insight from your work, and you're always so thoughtful and well-spoken. I appreciate it lots.

And WORD about what you get as a childfree employee...I can't number the times people expect me to stay late, trade shifts, etc. because I don't have kids. Or if I don't want to pull an extra shift, it's because I'm lazy, because it's certianly not because of a lack of childcare. Bleh.

I want Polly to represent me, too! "My client has no interest in your sticky-handed, booger-faced children." Ha! You cracked me up!

And I was so happy to see some old collegues yesterday, but some of the reactions I got about certian things were my not working the last year. One of our reasons for not procreating (not the biggest) is economic. Yup, we have more freedom and options with stuff like that cuz we don't have to pay for things like school. (Public schools are a joke here in New Orleans; anyone with any kind of means sends their kids to private ones.) We keep our lives simple in many ways to keep our expenses low.

Also, the Mr.'s vasectomy. Mostly the reaction was surprise, but their was a *dash* of being taken aback.

I had to just let a couple of comments roll off my back. Sometimes people with kids seem to resent the free time that childfree people have more of. Hey, it's not an accident. I made choices to have the life I want. Don't hate!

Just a little more venting...the whole notion of children being innocent little angels that should get only our beaming smiles. Hey, it's not like I want all kids locked in closets or like I don't have any kids in my sphere who I adore and would defend with my own life (I do!), but I'm not gonna smile at your kid misbehaving or something! Even if they are being good, I may not be interested in their cuteness. Sorry. I hate that social-obligation-smile-of-approval we're supposed to send kids' way when they are being adorable or whatever. Sometimes I feel like it, sometimes I don't.

And I'm tired of all this respect I'm automatically supposed to have for poor, single moms who chose to have a baby or many babies. I respect anyone who does their very best to be a good person, to contribute to the world in a positive way, to make the best of the choices they've made. But do I respect THAT particular decision above others? No. I don't think that path is any more inherantly admirable or noble than taking another path and struggling through life. Are there lots of single moms I admire? Hell yes! Are there lots of women without children I admire? Hell yes!

*whew* That felt good. I guess I'm one of the evil ones now. I'm glad for this thread, and for my childfree and childfree-supporting Busties! *mwah*

Hello, I'm Rose. I'm in my 30s and I am child-free. smile.gif

I think that any time you chose to do something with your life that seems to be outside the norm, you're going to be asked questions about it. I've been asked why I don't have kids. And I've been asked why I kept my maiden name when I got married. And I've been asked how I can stand on a stage in front of a thousand people and not feel nervous. These behaviors are seen as unusual by the majority of the population. And yeah, sometimes it can be annoying to be asked about it. I mean, there are some really nosy & tactless people out there! So sometimes I blow off those questions. But lots of times I accept it as an educational opportunity. And people have responded really well to me when I've done that. So can it be annoying? Sure. But it is far from a terrible burden.

Also, I find that if I respond to these people with a tone that conveys that my choice is normal and not a big deal, people let it go. If you get riled up about it, sometimes people respond with that The-lady-doth-protest-too-much attitude .... and that ain't helpin' anybody! smile.gif But, yes, sometimes you just gotta say "I'll forgive you for asking such a personal question if you'll forgive me for not answering it."

It's a shame that some people have faced discrimination in the workplace because of their childless status. As I said in the other thread, that's never happened to me. But I think that has a lot to do with the policies of the comapnies I have worked for or the laws of the governing body. For instance, I think that if you work for the American federal government, it is unlawful for them to discriminate against you based on your family status. I know such a law exists in several American states and many other countries across the globe. Maybe what we really need to focus on is getting the word out about these laws and policies & make sure that they are well-known and enforced.
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