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Wow that article really pisses me off, if only for that one statement. If I were good at writing poignant, angry letters I would send one-can someone else please try? I'm sure tons of other people across the country already have, but the more, the better.
luci, i so agree its mostly the parents who dont control the kids, bc a 5 year old didnt exactly raise him/herself to be annoying/loud/rude.

i guess it is a slippery slope, although i still do think older people who have done their kid raising, deserve the peace and quiet of a community that is solely adults. i dont think its ignorance and fear, i think its moving to a different stage of your life. i guess maybe doodle i diagree with the idea that it turns to hate. i would never hate people with kids, or kids themselves, i myself am not entirely sure of my decision not to have them, but, like anything else i think people deserve choices in terms of where they live. also, i dont equate wanting peace and quiet as an older person and being around other adults with no children as anything remotely close to not wanting to be around minorities. personally, i think thats taking it way too far. however, i do agree with the idea that in our society things do get very slippery, and really, there is already housing discrimination that needs to be addressed that is more important to me then being old one day with the choice to not be around children. also, i am not really sure any of of can really decide until we are old and living next to a couple with a an infant and a toddler who is constantly screaming crying. sure it happened to me, but i am not old and didnt really care all that much. if i was older and really valued my sleep? then maybe it would be a different story. i for one at this point in my life rather have diversity (although buildings that mostly have young adults are one big party which is fun!-and this is just bc of how people congregate not bc its "adults only" buildings in nyc) then seclusion, but i have wondered if i would feel that same way when i am older with a different schedule. i dont know.

i also think families should have the right to not want to be around young adults who are coming and going at all hours and waking up their children. unfortunately, i know from personal experience that its not just disrespectful people who do this. i have been in apts where it simply doesnt matter how hard you try to be quiet and respectful. sure, i could have told these people that they can put up or shut up but honestly, this isnt an option for many people. and also unfortunately, there are many apts that just arent built in a way that afford people privacy (clearly a whole other issues but you have to work with what you have).

maybe i just see this as having different housing depending on what stage of your life you are in, not as a way to simply never be around children and not deal with them bc you hate them or something. or vice versa in regards to families who dont want to be around younger adults.

the one serious problem about all this is the fact that yes, where you do stop, bc people are indeed bigots about things, and like you said, you cant not live around them.

i dont know the answer, nor honestly do i really care all that much cause its almost 1230 and really, i would live anywhere at this point i can afford, which in ny is a little more pressing then not having kids live next door.

I think communities are self selecting as it is for the type of folk who choose to live there, whether that is a good thing or not. Giving people legislative power to say "this commuity does not welcome children, elderly, twenty-somethings, etc," would be a step backward for housing rights, no two ways about it.

There's an interesting article on today, about the growing trend that people have fewer friends, and this quote just kind of struck me in our current conversation, as its pretty much why I love my own . urban, engaged community:

[quote]Even if we've increased this virtual intimacy, an architecture of loneliness drives us apart. The researchers explain it this way: There has been "a shift away from ties formed in neighborhood and community contexts." In other words, those who suffer long commutes from the suburbs, work long hours, and come right back to the 3,000-square-foot McPalace, the three-car garage with a door leading directly into the home, never need to lay eyes on a neighbor. Even if we moved to suburbs envisioning utopia, suburban life is, in some form, voluntary loneliness.[quote]

Interesting stuff. I have to say my dog has given me more of a community than I've ever had. I know pretty much everyone in the neighborhood, and they all know my dog, and I like that. I go to the dog park every evening and spend an hour with other dog owners chatting about our day, and we spend time together without our dogs too, for the occasional beer and BBQ. I don't need a child to make my life more enjoyable or feel more connected, I like what I have.
yeah i think the suburbs have really taken any sort of community away from alot of people. perhaps (just a thought) this has really contributed to the divorce rate among other things. people dont have an outlet from their immediate family and as the only saying goes familiarity breeds contempt. i take that as its not good to always be surrounded by the same people in close quarters all the time without another outlet. in cities, people really engage with others more, even if its in cafe's on the streets or your local deli. in the suburbs, people often stay confined to their houses.
i survived the babe fest.....mind you, only two babies...they are the only innocent ones involved. the grandma's and grandpa's, aunties and uncles...can only speak baby gibbirish. bah. 4 hours of hell with a family who i adored previously. now its baby this and baby that and get the camera so we can snap shots of her drooling. pleeese. no more.

although i was asked twice when my time was coming...i said 'not for a long time' to which i got varied responses...

one was 'hmmm'.

another was 'sometimes they surprise you, even when you aren't planning for them' to which i responded 'i'm taking precautions' to which she said, 'so was i and look what happened'....yeah...almost enough to put me off sex for a long time. fab. i wonder if i can use that excuse instead....

'honey, the baby people are scaring me so no sex tonite, ok?'

yeah thats gonna fly. hehehe. oh and i talked to mom while we were at dinner with our child-free and loving it friends drinking beers...and it went like this

mom: so did you see the baby?

me: yep. whats up?

mom: oh so you're not there anymore?

me: nope. we're at dinner with friends.

mom: oh. ok.
(i think she was hoping the baby thing would rub off, kinda like the chicken pox)
I know all about housing descrimination. My landlady is a bona fide Nazi. She also belives the government is controlling the weather and she doesn't own a TV because it's the "Electronic Jew". She uses the words homosexual and pediophile interchangably (sp?) My life companion and I have to keep the fact thast we are "Homo's" very secret or we would be thrown out in a heart beat. It sucks beacusde of that but I also have to listen to her crazy ass theories of how every one she hates is taking over the wolrld. I guess she misses "the time when only white christians controlled everything" Accordintg to her black people came about when Eve had sex with a monkey in the garden of eden. Did I mention she's a christian fundementalist.

Welcom to my life.
Oh my god she sounds awful, deshatsrouge-do you have to stay living in this place? I wouldn't want to give her money!
deschatsrouge, that lady sucks. I would move if it's possible., thank god babies aren't contagious! I'd have to dedicate my life to finding a vaccine. poor awful...hopefully you can find someplace else or maybe she'll leave you alone....

a vaccine? hmmm sounds promising...however i just found out one of my classmates has decided that her and her boyfriend/fiance aren't having i have someone to talk with on that topic...sadly, one youngster whos barely 18 said she was going to have kids simply because of what her mother went thru with her...she would 'feel bad' by not giving back and having a kid. WTF?!?!!? i just stared at her like she was nuts.

yeah, guilt is a great reason to create a new life...scary dude. although, if my big sis didnt' already have a girl and a boy, i might feel bad about leaving my parents grandchildless, since it means so much to them. thank god i don't have to worry about it!
deschat, is it bad that i laughed at your post? what a crazy bitch.

babyshower this past weekend. must.... tie...tubes...

(or, as i recounted it later, "marginally preferrable to being shot in the face")
It's not too bad COCL, I've learned to live with it. I just try not to say anything that gets her started. She was bugging me to find a man a few years back so I staged a fake wedding with a gay friend of mine and then he "left me for another woman." I acted all traumatized so she never bugged me about it again.
that's hilarious, did you actually stage the wedding so she could see it, or did you just tell her you got married?
baby showers are THE WORST. every time preggos opens something else theres all this gross awwwwwing going on. i mean, they open diapers and people say AWWWWW. one time i just flat out said... "its a diaper people, its not going to be so cute in a few months when its filled with shit". surprisingly enough, people laughed. either way, i still hate baby showers. bridal showers arent much better IMO. at least you get to see some cool lingerie.

ms GB, i am sorry, but every time you talk about what your mother does and says to you i want to put my fist thru the comp. i really am sorry you have to deal with that crap. you do handle it so very well though.
I'm with you, katie...showers of any kind are no fun. Who in the world thinks its fun to open gifts in front of other people?! BAD idea. And the silly games are worse. I avoid showers of any variety as often as I can, and most of the time I can be honest with the mom-2-be/bride/torturing friend, and let them know that I am happy to send them a gift and celebrate the occasion, but I am not wasting an afternoon cooing and ooohing at gift opening. Just not my bag. Much like bridesmaiding. heh.
i probably already said this but: whenever i'm around annoying kids or whatever, i just rub my lower belly where i imagine my iud is. and i just think "thank you for this iud."

it's great, cause i'll just look at my boyfriend and rub and he knows exactly what i'm saying. hee.

at my sister's bridal shower, we played a "fun" game where we had to make the veil and headdress or whtaever, out of toilet paper. ha-that was interesting. i was actually mad that we lost, even though ours was hideous. baby showers are better because i like all the tiny little clothes. but either way, they are annoying and boring, for the most part.
i am also not girly at all so i just kinda sit there and look uncomfortable. i truthfully have only gone to cousins baby and bridal showers, bc i am 24 and not many people my age are getting married and certainly none are having kids. its always nice to see my cousins, i have alot and we are close so i dont get to see them much. but, much like ms GB was saying, people ohh and ahh over babies and their clothes and i cant stand it, even if they are my cousins and aunts. NO ONE can seem to talk about anything remotely intelligent. i just want to scream WHERE DID YOUR BRAINS GO!

what is really starting to scare me is that in my long line of cousins, i am the next in line (age wise) to get married, so the last wedding we had everyone was like katie, you are next, when are you and mike (my ex who i was dating for the past 4 years) getting married. i was 22 years old at the time, i was kinda speechless.

my bridal shower (ha if i ever have one) is going to be at a cool place with lots and lots of booze so everyone can get wasted. i also wont open my presents in front of anyone, like you said turbo, who wants to see that?!
katiebelle, you read my mind...thanks! i swear, once baby's happen on the scene, people's brains leak out of their heads or something....

i realized that one of my coworkers might end up with a work baby shower since she's expecting her first in november...its all been pretty low key...and i may not even be invited cuz usually i am stuck here watching the phones while they go out to lunch...yay

yeah i had the large family thing "pressure" on me too, katiebelle. but mine shut up after i told them i was living in 'sin' with him. hehehehe

currently, the fam wants us to go and see my cousin tim get hitched. but since its a temple gig, i don't wanna go however many miles inland just to babysit for my family. uh no. no thanks. my aunts can do that.

i'm so not girly but i pull it off well. like, i wear pink and skirts well and i'm good with kids. but i picked out my wedding dress in less than an hour cuz the whole place scared the crap out of me. totally way too frou frou.

and sadly, at the age of 24, i had been to way too many wedding of the non-perks of being a relative of the mormon mafia. hehehe
I loathe showers!!! Someone inevitably smiles and says "You're next!" to me. And then end up defending my choice to never have kids. I have pretty much decided to never go to another shower in my lifetime. I just give presents before or after.

Surprisingly, the oddest person thought it was cool that I don't want to have kids. The other day I was working w/ this Penacostal(I am sure I butchered the spelling of that religon)lady and she asked me about kids. When I told her I didn't want to have children she was really supportive of that. She actually said, "Not everyone needs to have babies, if you don't want them, don't have them." I don't know, I just thought that was awesome.
You know what's weird? I have never been to a baby shower and only one bridal shower in my life. And that one didn't count because I was like five years old and mom couldn't find a babysitter...
Me too, treehugger. No baby showers, one wedding shower for my mother's cousin which we only attended because we were in the state at the time...and I've only been to one wedding, as a date, and I didn't know any of the people involved.

It's another reason I feel like I missed a day of class somewhere. "What Happens at Showers and Weddings." No freaking clue.
I don't like showers, but I love sappy weddings. Seriously -- the cornier the better.

I'm sad to realize that I'm old enough so that the weird old bats have passed away.

The ones that were still drinking "cocktails" when nobody else was, still wore their ratty gray hair on top of their heads for the occasion because they still remembered when that was the style, and wore high-heeled, gold sandals to get up en masse to dance to "The Alley Cat" totally drunk.

Now nobody knows what song is! The dance had these moves where you kick and clap.
I staged the reception because he and I got "married" at the court house. Every one who was pressuring me to get married came. It was great because some people even brought gifts. Of course I sent them a hand written Thank you and when he "left" me for another woman I got to keep it all. biggrin.gif
the alley cat?? is that like the 'tapioca'?


deschatsrouge...thats fricking awesome.....

sappy weddings are the best...or the extreme ones...those are just plain fun!
'It's another reason I feel like I missed a day of class somewhere. "What Happens at Showers and Weddings." No freaking clue.'

Lucizoe, I feel exactly the same way, except I have been to a few weddings. But all the other stuff; showers, christenings etc etc... no idea. Now I'm engaged and it's like there's this protocol I need to learn for pre-weddingy stuff. Still, at least I won't have to jump through similarly socially mandated hoops for child-rearing: yet another reason not to sprog.

I am fortunate in that none of my close friends (except one) have married *or* sprogged, and we're mostly in our 30s. (Hence my cluelessness about showers etc.) But as with our upcoming wedding, I know there's a grid of socially-approved behaviour that comes down once you have kids. Certainly people can resist taking on traditional roles etc, but I imagine it makes childrearing that much harder, fending off all of that advice.
I choose not to learn social protocols for stupid crap like baby showers, weddings and all the other cultural vomit. If I learned them then I would be obligated to use them. Ignorance is bliss baby.

totally deschatrouge-that's how i felt about cooking, growing up! i never wanted to be a housewife expected to cook and clean so i just refused to learn how. now i'm a bit sad that i can't cook...

my sister actually owns the emily post etiquette book, she got it even before she was engaged-shes' just weird like that. but yeah, she was looking in there for all the "right" ways to do everything for her wedding. weeeeeird.
Why on earth do so many people think that because they want official recognition for their commitment that they must have a wedding and they must do x, y and z? Why spend all that money for something that lasts less than a day? It seems really foolish to me, but then again, I wasn't raised with those sort of religion, no traditions, no "you have to"s re- pointless etiquette rules, and of course, most importantly, no money, ergo, very little conflict there. Can't have what you can't afford, at least, if you don't want to swim in debt for the rest of your life. I also sort of find a grown woman wearing a poofy princess dress, if she's not onstage, disconcerting and infantilizing.

I always figured if we ever got married (for the insurance; you could choke on the romance over here), we probably wouldn't even tell anyone. Like Mr.Luci's vasectomy - it's not anyone's business but our own. Plus, if his family were to find out that we'd ceased living in sin we'd never hear the end of "So, when are you two having kids?"

As with all cultural things which piss me off, I blame television.
Yup, luci, I agree with you on the wedding thing. Insurance and a joint bank account were sort of the major milestones of our union - we'd already been living together for 5 years at that point, and dating for 7...we probably still wouldn't be married, except that a dear friend of ours who is a pastor, was unicycling across the country one summer, and he stayed with us for a week, so we did the wedding thing. Very unromantic, but the ceremony was so personal and we created the ceremony together, very untraditional. And then we just had an open house reception in my 'rents back yard - no dinner, dj, toasts, dancing...just good snackies and good beer. We had 140 people at the reception, and it cost us $6K total... and was perfectly nice, and we had lots of time to visit with everyone who stopped by.
I am so solitary. I don't think I can even name 140 people I may have met. Heh - that's the real reason I don't want to get married. No one would come to the wedding! The self-righteousness is just a mask for rabid insecurity wink.gif

And I am tickled to death by the idea of a pastor unicycling across the US. Should be a comic strip, that.

Heh, when Mr.Luci told me I was the beneficiary of his life insurance, and we opened our joint account, I felt wed to him *flicks tear of joy off cheek*
That's why it was in the backyard....I don't know 140 people either! But my 'rents wanted to invite all their friends, which I didn't really groove on, and in the end, we compromised with the open house idea, so the ceremony was only for the 60 people who were important to us, and the reception - we gave our parents the ability to invite anyone they wanted to that.

yeah, our friend has unicycled across the country twice now - once to raise money for the Inupiat churches where he started out, and the second ride to share the stories of gay people in the church, and advocate for equality in the church. He's pretty amazing. This is his first ride. And this is his latest ride...he wrote books about both.
So far all our wedding talk has been about what we *don't* want: no bridesmaids or groomsmen, no band, no vol-au-vonts and no poofy-ass dress for me.. not least because it wouldn't suit me and also, yuck.

Basically the reason we're getting married is because the(soon to be) mister is more traditional than I am, and really wants to be married (which I still go awwww over, even though I have issues with many aspects of it). I like the idea of a wedding because I live in a different country to most of my family and some friends, so see this as a chance to get everyone together.

Can i say that turbo's wedding was one of the most special events i've ever attended? her friend, the pastor, was so personal, and so from the heart and from the experience of a long-married person, that we knew he knew the right ways to frame the turbo's experience. I don't know if the backyard thing in july was my most favorite reception ever...but once turbo mama let us change from dresses to shorts, it got fun!

not that this has a damn thing to do with CBC, but i never understood the "you must do XYZ" aspects of weddings. Ours was semi traditional (definitly formal), but our ceremony and the reception were deliveratly crafted to pull things that were important to us. Which, is the lesson I learned from turbo. ties in.
this subject reminds me of a time in high school when my sociology teacher had us plan our weddings. It was an actual graded project and lots of girs got really into it clipping out pictures of wedding dresses etc. Mine on the other hand consisted of "eloping to Vegas" and that was it. Well, I was sincere about it and I still received an 'F' for my grade. He thought I was making a mockery of the project somehow but that's honestly how I pictured my future wedding. I hated that teacher from then on. Okay, back to original subject. Babies, ewww wink.gif
What the hell kind of indoctrinating assignment was that????!!?!??! Grrrr...angry on clover's behalf over here

yeah, babies. *shudder* ick!
Huh. My parents got married at city hall, and had a potluck reception. My grandmother made the cake, my mom made her dress and my dad wore his mess kit.

My mom would have been up in that teacher's face so fast it would have made his head spin. What a jerk.
that is a stupid assignment and i would have told him i thought just that. when and if i ever get married i may have to elope bc my extended family alone is over 100 people and btw my friends and my parents friends i am pretty sure i could get to 400 pretty quickly. ugh, thats never ever going to happen. i dont get the whole wedding thing either. however, i do like a big ass party. which is why i woould do mine on the beach. a big ass beach party with a bonfire, sounds good to me.
We never had that assignment, clover. Seriously crappy homework. But, I would have went wild with it. Nude beach, open bar. You get the pic. wink.gif
holy gawd, we just got back from my friends' kids b-day party. OMG there were a TON of kids there!! There had to be about a hundred kids altogether b/c there were other parites going on in the same park. So I brought my doggie and this kid comes up and starts attacking clover! I couldn't believe it. he just starts wrestling w/ her an scaring the shit out of her! Clover was so scared of this little four year old that she ran underneath a park bench and hit her head, poor girl. Meantime, my roommate was getting pissed and telling the kid to stop and he just ignored us the little budding psychopath. So I'm looking around for the parents of this demon child and they are nowhere to be found. We ended up having to literally run away from this devil child! Aside from that incident, it went relatively well.
There used to be a great thread on Bust about refusing to have a traditional wedding/refusing to marry at all. I think it might deserve a revival. It was certainly an interesting topic, although it wasn't too consistent, so I'm not sure if it would be considered lucrative enough..hmm..any opinions?
I have a fear of commitment ceremonies. My life companion and I have made the joint decision not to have one. I don't mind going to them though, especially if they are gay weddings. I'm going to one next summer. My two gal pals are having their commitment ceremony. They are making it kid free by explicitly noting it on the invitations. I admire them because it may make them unpopular with some of their friends. It will be nice to sit and eat my cake without a teat sucking devil incarnate screaming in the middle of the dance floor with a nose oozing pestilance.

Clover if I had to do that homework assignment I think I would connsumate the union in front of everyone and then eat cake and watch Jay and Silent Bob.

A demon child once attacked the my cat so I made after her like I was going to swat her bum and she let go. she was all "but he likes it!" I said to her if I want some one to torture my cat I'll do it.
humanist-was it the "it's 2006 and i'm still deciding if i should take his name" thread?

i think people were talking about weddings in that thread...

yeah, my mom would've kicked some teacher ASS if we had gotten that assignment! i actually would've really liked to see that, heh heh.

last night i babysat for my little dude who i love. he's three. he's standing there with no pants. and he's like "i put my finger in my bottom" and he's standing there with his finger stuck up into his crack. it was so funny, but like ok! go wash your hands now-butts aren't good places for fingers. they are cute and funny, and really gross, too (kids, not butts, although i guess butts are cute and funny sometimes too).

i love him SO much it actually brought tears to my eyes to see him, as i have'nt seen him in almost 2 months. but then he's in the bathroom yelling "i need help wiping my bottom!!!" and i remember why i don't want one of my own.
I had two uncomfortable childfree moments yesterday. I had to go to a family brunch because my cousin and her husband from San Francisco who had twins in February came into town, and it was first time most of us had seen the babies. They're cool people and the babies are adorable, so I didn't mind.

The first incident was just my great-aunt giving me the run-of-the-mill "what do you mean you're not having kids? Why wouldn't you want kids?" I quickly changed the subject and escaped. No big deal, I have come to expect that stuff, and she wasn't digging any deeper.

The second one, the party was thrown at the new mom's sister's house. She's in her early forties, recently married for the first time, and doesn't have kids. She's a doctor, and I think she chose not to have kids, I don't think it was circumstantial- if she wanted to have kids before she was married, she could have easily afforded the fertility or adoption costs. But she's an extremely devoted aunt, loves her neices and nephews and most kids. Her sister-in-law, her brother's wife, was sitting in a chair, with one of the new babies sitting on the floor at her feet. She's about 6 months old, so she can sit up pretty well, unassisted, but being a 6 month old, they're still unpredictable and tend to fling and fall over. My childfree cousin was sitting there and said to her SIL, who has three kids, "why don't you put that blanket behind her in case she falls over?" The SIL said, "oh, she'll be fine, if she falls, I'll catch her." Childfree cousin again says, "yeah, maybe you should put that there in case you don't." No snarky tone, just a concerned aunt. SIL snaps, "why don't you let the mothers in the room worry about the kids, OK?" My childfree cousin and I just *looked* at each other. She dropped the issue and the kid didn't fall, but after her brother, sister-in-law and three kids left, she was so pissed. Especially since it came from the woman who smoked regularly through all three pregnacies, still smokes in the house and now all three kids have respiratory issues. Yeah, you're mother of the freaking year.
wow....polly....that really sucks. i think you forgot to add psycho bitch before the 'mother of the year' part. just my honest opinon.

we went to the beach yesterday, kids everywhere...totally fine...except for the fact that i wanted to trip some of them. hehe.

but a religious group came and did a baptism in the water and then after they left, we noticed a bunch of trash that hadn't been there we cleaned it up. damn annoying though.

sorry, back to topic...

kids, bleh. biggrin.gif
ms qb, that reminds me. I went to the river yesterday and counted no less than 5 dirty diapers left by people. how rude is that???
welcome to my world, clover...I see dirty diapers every morning at the beach. Pisses me off. I carry a bag to pick up glass on the beach, but I will *not* pick up used diapers. EEWWW.

Polly....that totally sucks - how completely rude...even if we choose not to be parents, we do have some clue about child safety, and we are not total child-care morons.
ok, let me speak up for the environmentally concious, not gross parents- diapers on the beach. SOOOOOO not right. Not even a little carelessness right. In absolultly no way right. A wet diaper left on the changing table in my house...a momentary absent minded move. A poopy diaper in a public place, where water takes the sewage out to sea,,,VERY BAD. And these idioits are probably the same dumb-asses who take their poopy pants kids into the lake! Then wonder why they puke 2.5 days later.

Feh. Dumb parents make me mad.

Polly- that disturbingly rude. My favorite uncle and aunt have no children, and i'd trust them to tell me "hey, that table is hard". Farkin powers of observation. Sheesh.

With that, i will now go check on my wee barin, have a glass of wine, and hit the hay.
what I don't get is that they have the foresight to bring extra diapers I assume, but no trash bag. And babies should not be allowed in communal swimming areas anyways b/c of the poop situation. I probably wouldn't be so upset about it if people didn't give me shit about bringing my dog places w/ me. At least I pick up her shit (99% of the time that is).
Just a thought (not that it makes it better in any way), but I wonder how many of the icky diapers are wash-ups from sea? No, wait...that's still gross. Yep. Sorry. Back to regularly scheuleded gross-out.
Most of the diapers I see are just sitting there in the middle of the beach...which is pathetic, really, considering there are garbage cans *and* recycling containers at least every hundred feet - both on the beach and scattered through the park. Some people have no respect. Of course, I get equally upset by all the other trash, chicken bones and detritus laying around the park too...
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