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haha, and I was at a friends house a while back and there was a baby. everyone knows how I feel about them (I'm pretty open about it) except for the mom and everyone was, like, "oh, give the baby to cloverbee, let her hold it" wink wink. and I was, like, ", I've been drinking". they were being absurd. so now that everyone knows how I feel, they all harrass me about it and try to force kids onto me. It's annoying. Because I REFUSE to ever hold a baby. I never have and I can almost guarantee save an emergency situation that I NEVER will. Sometimes I feel that I come off as rude like I'm eschewing the baby and the mom but it's nothing personal, yalls.
hope everyone had a great weekend. just thought i would relay a story that immmediately made me think of you girls.

i was outside this morning talking to a coworker. shes from guyana, and was talking about how she wants to "have a baby to get it out of the way" (shes 27). i was like well you know if you dont want kids you dont need to have them. she was like yeah well my husband wants one (of course i am thinking, yeah but how much will he take care of it..probably not at all) etc etc. shes like well if it wasnt for society and my husband i wouldnt have one.

i was just like oh man. i know that where she comes from its even harder to say no to having kids. she also got married at like 22. man i felt so bad for her.
Yeah... to "get it out of the way" is definitely one of the better reasons to have children. blink.gif
my sister's 4 boys are coming to visit on wed...oh joy. a week and a half of waking up at 7am to let my cat out to play with the boys, thus, no sleeping in. bah. fortunately we are leaving for half of it to go to childfree vegas!!! yes!!! *jumps on couch and pumps fist in the air*(ok not really)

i love opb. hehee

also, my best friend is coming into town in two weeks. we have already scheduled her baby girl's first visit to the beach. usually its just the two of us...i'm kinda disappointed but whatever. at least i get to see her. hopefully, she won't ask when i will be popping out progeny. should be interesting, since i haven't seen either since the baby shower and the baby should be at least 9 months by now, if not older.

clover, i understand. whenever i'm at a function, i.e. reception and babies are being passed, i look for the people who don't have kids and intercede the passing of said baby. almost always i get a look of relief from them. hehehe

know what is my fav part? handing them back when they start crying...which sometimes, as with the new nephew, is almost instantaneous. HILARIOUS FOR ME. like a finger in the parents direction saying 'told ya'.
What a shitty reason to bring a life into this world. Not a particularly self-affirming raison d'etre for the child, either, is it?

hey ya'll!!

indeed, bustygurl..."getting parenting out of the way" is not exactly the most well-thought out plan. I can understand the desire to be a younger parent if you are indeed desiring having children, but an apathetic thought of getting it out of the way, as if there's nothing to be done about it, really is sad.

Been a busy busy footloose and childfree weekend, whizzing back and forth to Michigan, and then spending two days roaming around the city, and visiting many a fine brewpub with my brother and SIL who are fun, so tiring, and so glad I had no other responsibilities than to just enjoy myself!

This weekend, I'll need all the bustie vibes I can gather as the Parental Invasion 2006 begins on Friday. I do not really enjoy spending time with my 'rents all that much...they're good people, and they love me, but they don't really accept my views on just about everything, they are very unaccepting of the diversity in which I live, and I'm sure there will be much talk of their beloved Jesus and all their friends who now have grandbabies...its a very serious effort to keep my yap shut and just ignore their comments. *deep breaths* This is by far, my most dreaded weekend of the year. blerg. I'm hoping it goes smoothly, just this once, as I am tired, and not much feeling the entertaining vibe this week.
Yeah, "getting it out of the way" is usually advice I give about having your wisdom teeth removed.
ggg....I think I should have listened to that wisdom teeth are pushing my toofers all over my mouth, as I failed to "get them out of the way" when my dentist told me to - 15 years ago. tongue.gif
Listen to the wise words of the GGG, while you stare into my dancing picklepeppercarrotbananaOMG!
*cant. look. away. from the picklepeppercarrotbanana*

*tears eyes away from the thread...*
bwahahaha..i love you gals....

((((vibes for turbojenn)))))


*leaves before picklepeppercarrotbananaOMG! hypnotizes me*
I started discussing this in the bc side-effects thread, and thought it would surely be of interest to other childfree people.
I've recently learned about Essure. Despite the unsettling statement on their website, ('If you're sure you don't want anymore children')-this procedure is like a dream come true to me. I decided a long time ago that either me, or whoever I am with will have to get sterilized at some point, and because this is such a reasonable and effective method, it'd be better off if it were me.

They stress the fact that anyone getting it done has to seriously consider what they are doing, but especially women under 30 who don't have any children, because they are more likely to change their minds later on. But as long as there are no health-related contraindications, there are no rules saying who can and can't get it done.

I've considered this seriously every single day for the last 8 years. I'm getting myself plugged!
Yeah, I looked at Essure awhile ago, and I think I'm just kind of waiting alittle longer before thinking more seriously about that one, just because there's not a ton of info out on it yet....but it is very tempting indeed...
humanist, I've read a lot about Essure...another CF board (where the crazies hang - like libertarians on crack) has a bunch of threads about it and other women's experiences. If'n you want the link, let me know...

I balked at an IUD (I have really tiny bits), so I don't think I'm going to go for the essure...a tubal is always in the back of my mind, however...

and, to sidle into the range of TMI - The vasectomy sex has been A+ super-duper. biggrin.gif
Essure sounds pretty cool, I hadn't heard about it. I might discuss it w/ my doc at my exam tommorrow. Just to find out more about how reliable it is and get an idea on pricing.

Lucizoe, I forgot I was green w/ jealousy about Mr. Luci getting the snip. But one of these days my guy will get around to his vasectomy.
MrGGG is snipped biggrin.gif

doesnt surprise me the men get depressed after the baby is born. most women i have seen go completely off their rocker baby crazy after the kids are born and forget the father had anything to do with it in the first place. i feel like many men sit there and are like "where did my intelligent wife go, now all she can talk about is diapers". this story made me wonder what IS actually good about having kids!
GGG, again bitter with jealously!!! wink.gif You guys get to have all the childfree sex you want while I am forced to take b/c pill everynight!!!

*stomps away*
Ugh katie- that article is bleh alright. The first 2 weeks a new baby is home is the shitter, to be honest. And it IS sad about those women who go baby gaga, w/o regard to their partners need for: 1. adult life; 2. bonding with said baby. I can say that moxieman and i have actually gotten closer, have BETTER sex (perhaps not as often, but i'll take quality over quantity anyday) and now appreciate poop humor much more than before. Again, though, we consciously made those things happen. Well, not the poop part. Farts are just funny.

We have friends (ok, moxieman's childhood buddy) who are much more conservative, "typical" upper middleclass white folk than we are. Navy officer and wifey. Anyway, when they had their first baby, the wife decided to stay home with her. We saw them aobut 5 mos after bebe was born...the wifey was NUTSO about being there for EVERYTHING for the kidlet...she even got visibly nervous when the DAD was holding the baby. GADS! Recently, after moxette's birth, said friend is in town for the weekend (they live away). He comes by to meet moxette. As we're chatting, we start talking about cars (as we're in the market for one). NavyFriend says "well, you (moxieman) don't ahve to get a family size car...there's ever really only one person doing the family driving anyway." AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! My WORST nightmare come true. Stepford City.

Anyway, i've been wondering...does only wanting one kid make me CBC-1?
that poor kids going to turn into a neaurotic whackjob like her mother. usually kids who are anxiety ridden, afraid to try new things, and neaurotic OCD-ish have insane mothers who wouldnt let them take a shit without asking first. so sad.

yeah doesnt have to be like that. it just sucks that so many people are!
moxiegirl, your friends are robots!!! on the other hand, you're practically surrounded with bright shining examples of how not to parent


So, I took the bus home today, since I wanted free entertainment AND didn't want to walk to the train. What do I get for being lazy? Bus stops, doors open, and about 30 kids and their 6 teenage handlers (day camp or somesuch) climb on. Oh, dearie me. The yelling! The screaming! The kicking of my seat! It was just like being on a school bus.

Sort of drove home just how uncomfy I am around children. Give me puppies and kitties any day!
oh, poor luci! Anytime I walk into a restaurant or get on the bus/train/whatever and there are children under 5 or so, i immediately regret it. Yesterday, the spa I work at was doing their monthly baby massage workshop, and even though they all know my feelings about babies, I was encouraged to stay and observe. Out of the 4 babies there, 3 of them were totally quiet, and the oldest one who was almost a year old, was the one screeching and running around. Sound echoes and travels very well in the building so it was extra loud. I was trying my hardest to keep smiling through my clenched teeth.

Luci, I would definitely like to read the forum about Essure-thanks!
That's why I love going to little whole in wall bars to eat. They aren't family friendly so the Mr. and I go to find a childfree atmosphere.

Poor moxie, Don't buy a mini van what ever you do!!! Think super cool volvo or Audi wagon. (I am the wife of a car guy and I just realized he's rubbing off on me.) I don't think I could stand being a military wife, no offense. I am just guessing that you have to put up w/ that mentality often.
Fortunately, no. They live in NJ, we live in MI. We see them when they come home to visit. which isn't often, thank goodness. OUr BFFs (the 3 husbands were buddies from age 5 on), have even less tolerance for them than we do...

I wouldn't mind a minivan, if we had like 3 kids, and it had cool features and was a go-go-gadget car. And got as-good-as or better mileage than my Vibe...oh, wait, that's not gonna happen, is it? I love my little wagon that could. Moxieman wants a jetta...and with ms.turbo's influence, that's probably what we'll get. Plenty of room for a carseat, and its got a trunk, so we need nothing else for 1 or 2 kids.

I LOVE hole in the wall bars. Oh, yummy bar burger...hmmm...grandma has been bugging for baby time...i smell beer and peanuts in my near future!
I'm Typhoid Mary!

Seriously - I just got back from a new gynecologist (who didn't balk too much at my discussion of a possible tubal ligation in the near future, so that's exciting!) who told me I have both a yeast infection AND the bacterial infection that has been plaguing me for almost a year and has been unresponsive to the meds my last office kept foisting on me. Two prescriptions; should be gone in a week.

I had to laugh when she told me. She was so surprised by it. And she was fast! She took a swab, did my pap, felt me up and boom! Like, five minutes. Efficiency is key.

(And yes, this fits better in OBOH, but I didn't want a lecture and y'all are my ladies and I know you'd think it was funny. Please, laugh at my expense. I think it's hilarious smile.gif ).

ps-moxie is the most down-to-earth mama ever!

edit-Oooh, where in Michigan? We have a cabin on Hammond Bay near Oqueoc and Rogers City...I miss the beach!
Hubby and i had an interesting discussion the other night. We are at the point where we are both agree we don't want kids of our own but that doesn't mean we cant do something positive for a kid in our neighboorhood ( we are on the west side of Chicago and alot of these kids never even get out of this neighboorhood). We talked about sponsoring a kid to go to People to People so they would have an opportunity to see other countries and offering scholarships or something like that to a kid in the catholic elementary school or the public elementary school in our neighboorhood. Just because we don't have a child of our own doesn't mean we can't do something positive for someone eles's kid.
luci- thanks! That means alot to me. I'm kind of mourning (rather unnecessairly, given my actual life pre-babe) the loss of "up and leaving" potential. I say unnecessary b/c i was a total homebody before having the baby- up and leaving isn't even a pleasant fantasy world. Anyway, hearing that I still sound down-to-earth and sane is really a blessing this afternoon.

We're in Detroit...Roger's City must be easily 4+ hours north of us. We have no cabin, but will someday have a condo in Stratford, ONT.
missladyj, People to People is a great program! I did it when I was 13 and it was a great (and expensive) experience. But sooo worth it!
I have just spent the last week on vacation with the mister and his pre-teen daughter. For me, even this temporary glimpse into full-time parenting was hard work. We also had a lot of fun and some good conversations (she's bright and interesting) but logistically when there's a kid around she comes first. We didn't always do what she wanted, usually we worked out compromises between us, but we always had to take her needs into account. Sounds obvious but it just goes on and on and on.

I'm trying not to complain because we really had a great time; it's just that I also found it exhausting. I'm sure it becomes habitual when you're parenting: factoring in the child's needs and juxtaposing them with your own. We're really lucky because mister's daughter is a great kid: no hissy fits or other manipulations. But she is a kid so kept needing things. I feel like a bad person for being annoyed by this even though it's totally natural.

Certainly the experience has reinforced my decision to be childfree! Having her around sometimes is enough... also any baby we might have might not be as balanced as she is!
This made me smile~in the August issue of Wired, they had a 44 page section on "How to......" whatever, sectioned into Live, Work, and Play. In the Live section, they had a Harvard psychology professor, who wrote a book on finding happiness in life, list his ideas of the best ways to stay happy in life, and to my surprise and delight, one of them was "Don't Reproduce", under which it says, "People are happier when napping or watching television than when taking care of kids".

I appreciate that, even though I know that some people truly do find happiness in raising children. I guess it's also nice to hear it from a Harvard professor, because so many people will automatically believe it more from someone of that academic status.

On another note..I brought up the idea of Essure to my bf, and he did not react well to it. He respects my decisions, and believes that I truly believe in what I believe at this time in my life, but he says that permanently closing that door just seems like a bad idea. I told him that I respect his opinion on the issue and I understand his concern, but I'm not ruling it out, and I'm still only thinking about it. I still need to find out if my insurance will cover it.

He wants me to try an IUD, because at least I will be able to reevaluate my decision every 10 years. Me thinks he is only worried that if we are still together and married at some point, that he might change his mind and want kids some day which I would not even physically be able to supply. I asked him if this is the case, and he promised it was not, but I have to wonder if he might be too scared to tell me the truth because of the implication of such long term commitment, and the idea that he might possibly be able to change my mind some day. At this point, he says he is sure he doesn't want children, but less than a couple years ago, we broke up because he thought he actually might want them. I'm scared these days that he will start to want them again, but not want to end the relationship and so he'll just repress it. It would be nice to be with someone sure enough about it to get the snip-not for me, but for himself, regardless of who he is with...
Boys also don't see the point in doing something so permanent because they don't have to deal with all the crap girls have to deal with when it comes to the pill, diaphragms, etc.
humanist - I saw that in Wired too, and it really made me smile! That was my favorite issue in a long time - I liked all the random "how tos."

I think turboman is probably alot like your BF...though he definitely leans more toward knowing he wants kids...which is tough. But when I've brought up getting a ligation or essure or IUD, he's never tried to dissuade me - he gets really quiet and ignores me, maybe, but he does "get it" that he does not get to have a say in what I do with my body. Its a tough spot, because sometimes I feel bad that its my choice that would prevent him from being a parent, but if that becomes something he really truly needs to do to be fulfilled, he may have to choose our relationship, or seeking another partner. I know he hopes I'll just naturally change my mind...but I have no idea if that will happen. It just seems like too much WORK for me, and not enough relaxation to balance it.

In other news, the Parental Invasion 2006 is nearly over. I've got 4 hours of smiling and making nice today, and then we're parent-free! Seriously, taking care of the 'rents for the weekend is more than enough responsibility to me! ...You know, reminding them to keep their judgmental opinions to themselves, don't stare at people who look different than you on the train, and don't be mean. heh.

Mom did pull me aside at the park yesterday and asked me point-blank when she would be having grandchildren. I just stared. I cannot believe that she just. doesn't. get it. This time instead of deflecting to "ask my brother and SIL," I just told her plainly, that I did not want children, and don't expect to have them. She nearly cried. We walked some more, and then she looked hopefully and asked me "you work at an adoption agency - why don't you adopt a baby?" ...Really, she doesn't get it. Its not the fact of pregnancy I'm trying to avoid - its parenting that I don't want. I feel bad for hurting her, but it was time to get honest about it, so she will stop trying to have this conversation every time I see her.

And that's my story for the morning. Syb, I hope you're getting a little time to rest up from your vacation today!!
Boys also don't see the point in doing something permanent (I'm generalizing of course) because they don't have the same level of parenting responsibility as women do, and they often don't understand how different it really is for men and women.

I have quite a bit of empathy for those women who fuss and get neurotic about their babies, though, I have to say. I think there is a HUGE amount of pressure on women to be "perfect" mothers, and first time mothers often get nervous and freaked out. (I am convinced this is the reason my older brother is so anally retentive while I'm usually much more laid back about things.) Anything that goes wrong in a child's life WILL be blamed on mom. When dads make mistakes, it's frequently dismissed as them not knowing any better, or not being "natural" nurturers, or just a core assumption that women have to be the more responsible parent (see previous paragraph!). And it's such a part of our culture, that children often go on blaming mom for their problems, even as adults!* Grrrr.....! Women are held up to such intense scrutiny as mothers that we're not allowed to make any mistakes. I would probably be pretty neurotic about my child, too, if I had one...which is one of the reasons I don't!

(* My most frustrating experiences in counselling have been counsellors who insist on trying to dig through all my childhood shit, even though 1) I've already dealt with it, with the added benefit of a feminist lens, thank you very much; 2) I've usually gone to counselling to talk about specific issues - work stress, relationship problems, etc. - that have nothing to do with my childhood; and 3) when there are connections between my current situation and my childhood, I've already figured them out. I hate, hate, hate counsellors who insist they know better than you do what's best for you. Anyway, sorry for going O/T!!)

I also have a lot of empathy for y'all who are dealing with partners hoping you'll change your mind. In relationships, I've always been upfront from the get go about not wanting kids. With one partner, after we'd been living together for a few months, we wound up having this really sweet, romantic evening on the beach, watching the Canada Day fireworks, and (as we watched people's kids running around being cute) she turned to me and said, "Why don't we think about adopting?" Totally assumed that because she was afraid of giving birth, I must have the same fears and that's why I didn't want kids! But it's not childbirth I'm trying to avoid - it's raising a child! I was in shock, and all she could say was, "Just think about it, that's all I'm saying." As if I hadn't! It was kind of like being blindsided - we broke up seven months later. Not just because of the kid issue, of course, but it didn't help.

turbo, good for you for being blunt with your mom - it sounds like it's reached the point where you had no choice. I'm sorry it has to be so frustrating for you, though. Goddess bless doodlemama....*sigh*
doodlebug heartage for saying everything I'm thinking much more succinctly and kindly than I ever could

I'm already a perfectionist, constantly comparing myself to everyone around me, and I know I would project all the (now permanently way-laid by kiddies) goals I had for myself onto my kid. Can't do that to an innocent. And the pressure and mommy competition and the blame...yeah, doodle pretty much summed it up...and running into men who cannot accept that women have a different experience. What world do they live in and can I come too?

word on the counselors...I think if you can find one that you click with, then it's a great experience. But I haven't found that yet. In fact, my last one had a daughter doing a college search at the same time I was doing mine and he was projecting like crazy and talking about her all the, yes, I think it's neat that she's looking at Brown, but I don't WANT to go to Brown. Stop telling me to look at Brown. Have you not been paying attention to my desire to stay out of the uber-competitive ivies? Let's talk about my grandma now.


Fun childfree weekend - mr.luci's best friend came for a couple of days and we bummed around, ate far too much, smoked some nice sticky bud and now I intend to sloth for the rest of the day. Bliss.
Just stopping into the Lounge to post this article about adult-oriented housing in today's NY Times mag. I actually have some understanding and similar concern about adult-only communities as a form of discrimination based on family status (which is a human rights violation), but there's this one sentence in particular.....ARRGHHH!!! I want to stomp on this journalist's head for writing a sentence so blatantly ignorant and hateful...and the editors for letting it's the effing NY Times, not Fox News!

It is tempting to link the popularity of active-adult housing to the bigots, contrarians and attention-seekers of the “child free” movement, who rant quotably on their Web sites about the favoritism accorded to “breeders.”

Um. Editorialize much?

The entire article.

So this guy has just basically told the entire readership of the NY Times that those of us who want to remain child free (and don't hide in shame like the social pariahs we apparently must be) are nothing but bigots, contrarians, and attention-seekers.
I lose more respect for the NYT more and more every week. That article was really appalling...and when you consider how much of their effete audience are the childfree before they let some opinionated ass write an article like that.

I don't know how I even really feel about childree developments, but I do know that I love that our neighborhood has diversity, and people and families of all varieties, and I think that's good. And I love the sound of children playing outside my window during the day, and I appreciate that for the most part, parents are responsible in keeping the neighborhood quiet at night....I have a lot more issues with the adults in our condo building than the kids that live here! tongue.gif

Even though I enjoy my life without children, I'm not sure isolating myself with other people who are just like me is a good idea. Interaction with different people creates open minds and communication, and what's so scary about that?
article was probably written by a parent
i dont know i think i would like to live without kids around. and i think its totally acceptable and legal. i mean they have 55 and over developments why not child free ones. as long as there are comparable places for families to live then its not illegal at all.
55+ developments are meant to be for people with the health issues that surround declining age.

It may be legal to discriminate in the U.S., where your government refuses to sign international Human Rights treaties, but not so everywhere else.

Discrimination is always worrisome, IMHO. Discrimination based on family status sets a precedent where ANYONE can being discriminated against. You could be discriminated against for being an unmarried parent, or for being a gay family. You could be discriminated against for NOT having children. Yet to say it's okay to discriminate against people with kids? Not to me.

The problem is there will never be comparable housing for the discriminated against. Unless people think ghettoes are the answer. If, as the article says, senior baby boomers are going to be the group with the most money, municipal governments and developers are going to cater to them. The biggest problem we face is not a lack of senior facilities and communities, but a lack of affordable housing for low income families. Every municipality knows this and ignores it. And every government - at all levels - tries to abdicate responsibility for social housing.
Doodle, I have to agree w/ you in that I would HATE HATE HATE to see a development that excludes, say, African Americans. It is a slippery slope and I could totally see that happening here.
well Doodle, yeah (our fucked up reasons not withstanding for not signing the treaties), it is illegal to discriminate in houseing here...except that fucking lobbyists have gotten Congress to have tjhis biug loopy-loop for communities that are "needed" to "accomodate" seniors. I think the point of the article was to instigate how errily close those "needs" are to discrimination. Overall, though (and as ususal), I've got to agree with Turbo on the piece's quailty- granted, it was an op-ed colum, not a "news" story, but was yellow through and through.
i dont know, i think the idea you can discriminate based on race, sex, gender or sexual orientation would pretty much protect from that. and frankly, i think that if people want to live without certain elements around them (like children) they should be able to. not wanting kids around is different then say, not wanting african americans around. you dont want kids around bc you want a certain lifestyle. if you dont want black people around you are just an asshole.

and also i think that people who are older who want to live around people of a similar age, what is the big deal about that? i sure as hell dont want to live among families when i am 65 and i think i should have that choice.

of course i can see where it could be a slippery slope, but there are ways to protect against that.
and also i think that people who are older who want to live around people of a similar age, what is the big deal about that? i sure as hell dont want to live among families when i am 65 and i think i should have that choice.

Change "age" to "color" and "families" to "gays" and "65" to any age you prefer...

It challenges us to examine our personal preferences vs. our elite morals, eh?
There are some clauses as a private community, or retirement community, where people can discroiminate being around kids.

BUT, people will just doit with age these days, it is um, "gauche" to do that against anything else.

People can do that to gays too, where they are not a "protected" class.
I feel sad that some busties might feel such prejudice around age and types of families. Maybe sad isn't the right word. I find it disturbing, actually.

This is not any different than being prejudiced against seniors or single parent families, or people of colour or gays, for that matter. It's one thing to say you don't want kids and you don't want to be personally responsible for them, and yes, we are ALL annoyed by children at times - even parents are annoyed by their own children! And this is a great place to vent about it. But to me, wanting to live in a community free of children, unless you are experiencing health issues that require seclusion, seems to me to be no different than wanting to live in a community free of East Indians (those darned cooking smells are so noxious, right?), or gays (always having sex everywhere, aren't they?), or blue people (always coming here and stealing our hamsters...apologies to Eddie Izzard).

What I'm annoyed by is other people's prejudice, and I don't want to live around bigots. But really, we can't even discriminate against those folks in housing, because everyone is entitled to their opinion, no matter how fucked up it is. That's the beauty of living in a democratic society. Children may not be able to vote yet, but that doesn't make them any less equal members of our society, entitled to the same rights and benefits all members of our society are entitled well as being entitled to a higher standard of protection and care, as our most vulnerable citizens.

I live in an apartment complex that has mostly adults, mainly because it's mostly one bedrooms and studios, with a few 2 bedrooms. There are four single mother families in here. One such family even lives in the apartment below me. I love the diversity they bring (along with the seniors, the university students, the couples, and the other near-middle-agers like me). But if you want the truth, I hardly even know they're here. The kids are pretty generally well-behaved, they go to school or daycare during the day, and (in this day and age) they go nowhere without their mothers or some other adult, so they're not running around the building making noise. I rarely even hear the little guy downstairs, even though he is a lively, healthy, happy boy. (ETA: actually, the people I hear most are a few of the 19 - 24 year old students, who are exploring their "right to party"...and in one case, to ride a mini motorbike on the lawn....actually, that guy is the only tenant I've ever had to complain about.)

I guess my point is that it's ignorance and fear that makes us want to isolate ourselves away from others, and ignorance and fear, left to stew in isolation from the unwanted group of people, eventually develops into hate. And that's what I find most disturbing.
I live with kids.

I don't want to live around people who put couches on their front yards, hence all of the sofa fires in my 'hood as of late.

Did you know five sofas live near the core of the Earth and control all of the money?
Word, doodle. When we moved into our current abode, we were the younguns, and 90% of the building were seniors, folks who had lived here since the building went up 40 years ago...this didn't bother us, but it sure bothered them that young people were moving in, and they were all very emphatic about telling us all the rules, before then even knew us. NOW, 5 years later, we're a diverse building in every way, age, race, ethnicity, and a buncha kids, and I think everyone is happier for it. I can't imagine living in a place with no children, the sound of kids in a neighborhood is the sound of life, the sound of growth. Kids in our neighborhood run free everywhere without parents, in spite of living in a city, and between dog walkers and lifeguards, the kids are pretty safe. I know most of them, even though I only know a few names, and I like that. I live in a community.

I think modern life, and especially in suburbs oftentimes allows people to become too isolated, not knowing their neighbors, or who might need some help shoveling the walk or with the occasional meal shared, and I find that a very sad development indeed. Turboman and I pretty much agree that we don't want to ever live in a place of closed doors and isolation.
You know, apart from my own childhood, my home during which had a wooded lot barrier cutting us off from one side of our block, with a cemetery across the street, and a single mom and her Down's Syndrome daughter in the house that used to be our barn (really close by, in other words), I haven't lived around kids that much. Granted, as I got to be a teenager the kids two houses over hit the 'tweens and their family thought it was a great idea for them to have four wheelers with which to circle the house over and over and over and over again, the noise was no worse than people's stupid riding mowers. God, I hate those things.

Anywho - completely digressing there. I really don't think it's the kids; it's rude, entitled, self-centered parents. Kids are sort of like larvae, you know? Not fully formed, not fully functional, and their parents are legally responsible for their behavior. In that respect, they really don't have the same responsibilities as adults in terms of standards of behavior, especially if they're never taught. So if I could find a community that banned rude people, I think that would take care of it, as long as I could be the final arbiter of rude. smile.gif

Although I can really understand the desire to not live near kids, I don't think making anything officially exclusionary is a good idea. I fully intend to be the scary dog lady everyone avoids. It's really my responsibility to choose a neighborhood that I fit into, anyway, and so I'll avoid suburbia for the extremes of city apartment or cabin in the woods. If I'm lucky enough to be able to continue to choose...

I do wish more apartment buildings would allow dogs. They don't crayon on walls, unless they're really talented.

(My brother was promised an apartment until the landlady called him and said she forgot to ask if he loved Jesus. We were raised atheists. Apartment offer was rescinded. I really wanted him to pursue legal action, but he let it go. Housing discrimination blows).
"""""(My brother was promised an apartment until the landlady called him and said she forgot to ask if he loved Jesus. We were raised atheists. Apartment offer was rescinded. I really wanted him to pursue legal action, but he let it go. Housing discrimination blows)""""

wow, lucizoe. that reminds me of when my ex and I wanted this apartment run by an elderly couple. It seemed that there were quite a few elderly people in this complex now that I recollect. She wouldn't let us have it b/c of our age. Well, specifically it was because "I" might decide to have a baby and quit my job and then we wouldn't be able to afford it. That's exactly what she told me, fucking bitch! Well, that was about five years ago and guess what??? Still not pregnant. She missed out on all that rent. Fuck her and people like her. that is age discrimination at its finest.
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