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i have been practically stoned for saying that maybe when people die (including children) that perhaps that is for a reason. ahem darwinism. i believe tht modern medicine that has contributed to the possiblity of people staying alive who would have otherwise died really is ruining this planet in alot of ways. i know it sounds really harsh, but if your kid was born (and this doesnt JUST apply to kids) was born 5 months premature, dont you think there is a reason for that and maybe you shouldnt go to such lengths to have it stay alive when theres a good chance it will have major health issues anyway down the road?
there are a few families in my town that have 10,11 and 14 kids respectively. while i am friends with one from each family (who are on the younger side of things) i still think, what is the purpose in having 11 children? honestly. its not like they live on a farm, they live in freaking long island!
katiebelle, I feel the same way. Also about women who have to go to great fertility drug lengths to conceive. Umm, maybe your body is just not meant to be pregnant if you have to inject yourself with hormones and do IVF multiple times. Find some other way of fulfilling that need. Like, I dunno, fostering or adopting some EXISTING small humans.
yup, i completely agree with that as well. and not only do they go to great lengths, but the result is generally about 7 fucking kids. COME ON. did you REALLY need to see copies of you and your ugly husband that badly? my mom couldnt have kids, nd intead of ultimately choosing IVF, they adopted me and my sister.
I completely agree. It's kind of sad that some people feel like they can only love a hypothetical child they can't naturally have, yet not any of the existing children out there.
I agree with you in a lot of cases, katiebelle, but as someone who is dating someone who was born at 27 weeks in 1977 and had about the same chances as living (not living a healthy, normal life, just living at all) as someone born today would have being born 5 months early, I can attest that every sick and/or premature baby's situation is different and if there's a chance they can live, then I don't know how any parent could give up on that.

My boyfriend and his twin sister weren't supposed to live at all. And they did. Then they were supposed to be vegetables or completely mentally retarded. And they're not. Then the doctors said, okay, they won't walk, talk, see or feed themselves. They can do all of that and then some (their joke is "we're not profoundly retarded.)

After knowing him for over 8 years, dating him for the past five, I'd have a hard time criticizing his parents for the lengths they went to for them and I hope that any parent facing the same issues would do the same, because if you're going to have kids then you'd better be damn dedicated to it. I'm not saying keep them on life support for the rest of their lives just because you can't deal with the kid dying- you have to have some common sense, but every child deserves a chance. You do have to know when to throw in the towel, though.
I saw four diapers on the beach this morning. four. And a shitload of other bottles and garbage - c'mon breeders, pick up after yourselves!

I have a hard time criticizing infertility treatments, mostly because those are the parents I work with everyday. I admire their drive to be parents, and can I deny them that desire? These are parents thinking critically about becoming parents, planning for it, and have the income to try and have a bio child. But at the bottom of this, children born of infertility assistance are planned, wanted children, and I've got no problem with that.

Do I wish more parents sought out adoption sooner? Hell yes.
But turbojenn, breeders have reproduced! They are the epitome of what we all strive for and should be revered as saints and shouldn't have to pick up after themselves or behave decently in public, they're *SPECIAL*

Some of my aquaintances who have been trying to have kids have said they would consider adopting someone else's child if they absolutely couldn't have their own. These are the people I worry about actually adopting kids, because if you're gonna think of them as someone else's kids that you are raisng and not as your own kids then maybe you should not do it.

I wish the country would get off the whole sex ed debate and over the taboo about their naughty bits so we could move on to the concept of planned parenthood. So many people put more thought into buying a freakin' car than they do into deciding whether or not to have kids!

sorry for the long post/ranting. more bad kids at work least nobody pissed the carpet again....
well, sixelacat, working in adoption, I see people come into the process with all kinds of fear and baggage and loss, but after they take our education courses, and meet other families with shared experience and losses, and then meet some of our alumni adoptive families...they totally embrace the process, and the child they have been chosen to parent. Its all an educational process, that's all.

Yeah, I think we wouldn't have to worry about a lot of socio economic problems within families if we made all contraception methods free and freely available. And can we have some REAL sex ed already?!

...I'm sorry about the crappy kids at your job...
"So many people put more thought into buying a freakin' car than they do into deciding whether or not to have kids!"


Hey Polly, I am really glad you said your story bc as i was typing i was thinking to myself that certainly if i was in the situation you were in, or a similar one, would i feel the same way. since i never have been, i can say if i would or wouldnt. I can say though that i am still staunchly pro choice even though people love to ask me "well if your mother had chosen abortion you wouldnt be here". It's like thanks capt obvious. What i tell them that if thats what she thought was best, then so be it. would i know the difference? would you? no. that sort of applies to your BF as in, if he hadnt made it, you wouldnt necessarily know. weird skewed logic I know but true nonetheless. however you are right, his parents are seriously dedicated and really, thats the most important thing. i was talking more about people who dont know when to throw in the towel, like you stated.

its true that people who go thru these treatments generally REALLY want their kids, and thats an amazing thing. But did they ever stop to think that maybe having biological children isnt in the cards for them and shouldnt be, bc they do have to pumped themselves full of all these hormones unnaturally? Do they ever consider the idea that they were put here for another reason, and it wasnt to procreate, but to be the father and mother to an already born child who doesnt have one? or is societal pressure to have their "own" kids do strong that they really never give serious thought to adoption? if they were trying 100 years ago, they wouldnt have been able to even think about having their biological children bc we didnt have the technology.

Part of me wonders though, are they doing it thru pressure of their husbands, mothers and MIL's too? Would some rather adopt but are afraid to even bring up that option? who knows, just putting it out there.

And ill never agree with people who have treatments that end up with 7 kids. they get all these free diapers, college education and whatnot from their community (they are always white people who can afford these treatments). that pisses me off. there are very poor people who needs the same assistance for two kids, yet bc you HAD to have your own kids, had tons of money to spend getting your *own* kids, and ended up with 7 little brats, you get everything for free? sorry but no.

As for adoption and people "considering" having kids that are "not their own" I can say personally that my parents often forget my sister and I are adopted, as do my one bajillion cousins. its just not a part of how they look at us you know?
I'm still on the side of that it is absolutely ok to want biological children, and to use the medical technology available to give yourself the best shot at a healthy pregnancy.

To me, to say otherwise is just like all of the parents who try to recruit us to have offspring too...its just all about choice. Choose to have 'em, choose to remain childfree, choose to use medical techonology to have children, its all the same to me.

I think that those who truly want to be parents will find a way to make it happen - in whatever way they choose. And that's a pretty cool thing, I think.
Word, turbo.

katie, two of my good friends are adopted and their parents rock, bc their kids are their kids are their kids, however they got there. Another friend of mine's husband says he would rather have his own bio kid than raise someone else's, similar reaction with another couple/aquaintances. Makes me wonder about their potential parenting skills, but maybe they'd benefit from education, like turbo said.
Well, I posted this in the white privilege thread but it's applicable here. It's really interesting if you look here:

and you search couples, pick any region, start looking at couples in general. These are couples waiting to adopt a child. Look at what they've specified for acceptable races. I think out of about fifty couples I personally looked at last week, I found *one* that was willing to adopt either a black child or a black mixed race child. Which, you could rationalize it and maybe give them the benefit of the doubt and say, well, maybe they are worried about their "black" kids not finding their own culture in a white family, blah blah. Until you see that these couples are willing to adopt hispanic or asian or mixes of those two races. Just not black.

Why don't they just have a category for these folks since it seems to fit 90% of em: "anything but black."

It pisses me off. These people will go to any effort to have their own kids, then if that fails, they will *suck it up* and take somebody else's kids but NOT IF THEY'RE BLACK!!!! God forbid!

*maybe this should have gone in the corncob up the ass thread....*
Whoa, that's bullcrap. Even a lot of the people who will accept other races only specify "Caucasian/Hispanic," etc. Why don't they just say "I don't want a kid with brown skin"? I looked at that single lady's, and she listed every single race, including Middle Eastern, but not African American.

One of my professors was always going on about this regarding movie stars and how they'll go buy their children in China because they're horrified about how little girls are murdered over there (even though those laws have *definitely* changed for the better), but not one of those celebrities will bat an eye over children who go through absolute hell in war-torn Africa.

But back to the link...GRR!!!
turbojenn the agency I work for, we work to help families broaden their minds on the type of child they are willing to adopt - that includes medical/social background, as well as race. And we do education and all of that. But at the end of the day, do you want someone to parent a child of a different race, if they are not prepared to become a transracially adoptive family? My answer is a big fat NO.

So, express your outrage, if you will, but I think its ok to adopt the child you are prepared to parent. ALSO, at our agency we have 20 out of 60 families waiting who are waiting to adopt african american infants, and they are waiting and waiting because at the end of the day, birthparents generally prefer to place with parents of their own race, and there are limited african american families on our list, even though we do extensive recruitment of families in the African American community. The race problem runs both ways.

So, we're a big muddled mess here in the US, with our race issues playing out in all sorts of bizzare ways...
I totally understand that, and I did think of that when I was reading through the potential adopters, like what would happen to the black kid if (s)he ended up with one of those people as parents. THAT would be messed up. It's just so frustrating overall. :/

It's interesting you mention class in all of this. Are there a lot of people who come in asking for children from a specific socio-economic bracket?
It's a hard issue... I can't remember where but once I stumbled on a forum for people who had been adopted by those of another race and who had a lot of anger, for example some of them felt they had been taken away from their cultural heritage or expected to act "white on the inside".

M said to me that if he and I change our minds later and want kids in our lives in some form, one idea would be to adopt a mother. Which I thought was strange but interesting. He said there are plenty of struggling sole parents out there and having an older, childless couple share resources and chores might be a good solution. I've seen one open adoption work a bit like that, too.
well, to me it's just sort of a commentary on the state of affairs. People throw around the whole anti-choice-anti abortion argument that there's so many loving people waiting for children and don't have an abortion because your child will definitely have a loving home. I can't imagine reading through that website, if I were an african-american woman, and thinking a good home would be found for my child. I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, it's just very jarring to me that these people who are willing to take any other ethnicity, are unwilling to take black or even black mixed race children. I mean, this is something I can't change, just irks me. I feel like writing a "thank you" letter to the ONE caucasion couple who said they were willing to take any race child. It's sad....we value having kids soooo much, but only on OUR terms, eh?
faerie - I didn't mention anything about socio-economic background..I meant social background, as in the family history/culture of the birth family.

Yes, race in adoption is really messed up in this country, but I think in the end, that if parents aren't going to embrace diversity in their lives, that perhaps transracial adoption is not the best solution for them. If you live in a really white suburb and you adopt a child of a different race, and there will not be any other children who look like your child in that community....well, that might not be the best placement for that child. And ethical adoption agencies serve the *child first* - the child is the primary client, then birthparents, then adoptive parents.

And like I said, at our agency, a third of the waiting families are open to adopting kids of another race, but caucasian families adopting african american children can wait a long time, because african american birth parents prefer to place with an african american family, and I think that is a valid desire for expectant parents considering adoption.

venetia, I love the idea of adopting a family in need of additional support....
Hmm. Wouldn't the same sort of educational process that would help the adoptive parents overcome the "it's not my bio-child" objection help them overcome a "the child doesn't look like me" objection? I don't mean to oversimplify the problem, but there are so many ways to belong/not belong that it seems specious for race to be preventative of adoption.

In the pretty white community where I spent part of high school, there was one whole black family in the entire town and those children had no problems making friends and being part of the community. On the other hand, the one out gay kid got beaten up twice, and I was only there 2 years.
well, six, it is a simplification of the problem. We do have classes for learning how to become a "conspicuous family," but in the end, its not for every family, and if they cannot fully embrace diversity in their life, then they should adopt a child of the same race.

And of course the individual experience of being "different" in any community is different for everyone.

The funny thing I'm finding in here at the moment is the same feeling of judgement about how people choose to become parents that those of us who are childfree feel from the parental recruiting brigade.

SO, that said, can we get off this righteous bandwagon and allow that everyone has the choice to become parents in whatever way they choose, just as we have the same right to be childfree? *steps off soapbox*

point well taken. :-) It wasn't my intention to come off sounding like that but re-reading my posts, I guess I do sense some of that. Sorry.
Oh, wow, sorry if I came off like that. Wasn't trying to be judgmental, just curious. It just seemed funny/odd to me, that's all. Since I'm not really planning on having kids, I don't have too many conversations about adoption, and definitely not about more detailed adoption issues like race.
And I think I'm overly sensitive to all sides of child welfare too, since I've worked here for nearly 7 years...and working in the field has definitely informed my childfree birth control money can buy, I think!
Ha! My parents did that for me, turbo. I saw first hand what it's like to be unprepared for parenthood (or adulthood, generally just any kind of 'hood...these people were not scouts...)

You work a tough job, turbojenn.

Okay, it's Monday, Sunrise Margaritas all around!
Although I have chosen to remain child free for now I have this notion that I was meant to adopt if I ever decide to have kids. I feel deeply that if I were to adopt, the child I would be placed with has some how been chosen by the forces of fate. I do not feel I have the right to choose the race, gender, creed, ect. of the child. That decision is not mine, it is the decision of that which is greater than me. I see adoption as an almost holy act as it is giving trust to that which is greater and letting go of selfish desires (i.e. I want a white boy) so that you may let another in to your heart.
Deschatsrouge, I feel the same way. I never wanted to give birth, but I've always had this feeling that I'd adopt a child that sort of "came to me". I don't know if it will happen, but I understand what you mean about letting another into your heart. That's why, no matter what else I think about Angelina Jolie, her story of meeting Maddox and knowing he was meant for her really resonated with me.
You know what I never realized? My aunt adopted two kids and I guess everybody assumed she was infertile because she was married at the time. She later surprised everybody by getting a tubal! So I guess she either didn't want to give birth or else she didn't want to create any more kids in an already overcrowded world.

(knowing my aunt, either one is a good possibility)
That's funny, I'm weirdly the opposite. I've been kind of fascinated by giving birth since I was 14 (I used to fantisize about being pregnant/going into labor). That's also the age I decided I wouldn't even consider actually having kids until I was 30. And when I turned 30 I considered and went, Think about it again after 35.

Back then I had looked around at my parents and other family members and saw the results of what happened when you didn't actually plan for kids, so I set the criteria of being fairly set in a career that I loved in a location that I wanted to stay in for at least 18 years. Still not there, so we'll see. I'm not going to have a kid until the rest of my life is fairly set and I know I can afford one. Also, I was diagnosed with PCOS at 16, so actually getting pregnant would be difficult/expensive. I'll probably be too old to give birth by the time all the other factors are in place for me to be ready to have kids, anyway, so adoption's always been in the back of my mind as the most likely way I'd have a kid.
Hmmm, I have never been interested in kids, not even adopting them. I was never picking out possible names or anything.

On a side note, I have to go to a baby shower for a coworker tommorrow and I am dreading it! All my coworkers are breeders so there will be a bunch of kids running around. And I don't know what to get as a gift. I hate buying baby stuff.
OMG ginger kitty, you reminded me of something that happened to me a few years back. I was shopping in the baby department for a present for my niece's son, who was like six months old at the time.

A guy who works at my shop (omg construction workers and tradesmen are the worst gossips EVER), saw me shopping for baby stuff. We exchanged courteous "hellos" because we're not much more than acquaintenances.

A couple weeks later I got wind that there was a rumor that I was pregnant!!! And it all went back to that guy seeing me shopping in the baby department at Target....geesh!

I think it's lame to have kids. What a drag. You have to spend your entire time answering inane questions and you have no life. Who would want that? I know life isn't supposed to be a non-stop party but what a fucking drag to have a kid.
There is a clothing store in Boston called Bump. The print ad says: "Fashion so good, you'll wish you were pregnant! Fabulous, delicious baby & children's clothing too!! [sic]"

I don't think so.

Who dreams up this stuff?!
I went to my cousin's wedding today and people have finally popped the big question: do I have a boyfriend? Before I could answer my mom was already answering for me about how I was really picky and would only date a really smart guy, then she started talking about how my ex wanted to five kids or whatever and that I didn't. At that point I thought the convo would take a turn for the worse, but she really backed me up! My relatives probably think I'm a total psycho since all my cousins are baby factories, but there's no way in hell I'm going down that road!

Re: The Bump store...that's some scary shit.
On a side note, I have to go to a baby shower for a coworker tommorrow and I am dreading it! All my coworkers are breeders so there will be a bunch of kids running around. And I don't know what to get as a gift. I hate buying baby stuff.>

Ear plugs.
I think am just going to buy a present and skip the shower. I'll give it to her at work and instead of being surrounded by kids at a resturant I don't want to go to, I can have a little pinic with my hubby or something.
Burt's Bees makes great baby stuff, milk bath, apricot baby oil, soap, and diaper ointment. I always get that for anyone who has a kid. You can get it at whole foods and don't have to deal with going to a kids store. Plus they are great natural products.

I am lucky at work I usually just contribute money to a gift , sign my name on a card and skip the whole coworker shindig. This has more to do with the fact that they bore the shit out of me. One cat keeps asking me when I'm gonna pop one out. He keeps saying " you shouldn't wait to long". I told him " I have a cat."
hahahaha cloverbee, I have the same sentiments. WHAT a DRAG I think when I see people with kids.

I think I made up my mind when I was in high school and went to get a manicure at my mom's nail place before prom or something. Obviously, it was filled with women, all of whom had children of various ages. All they could talk about was their children, right down to what diapers they wore and when they started walking and who was pregnant. I was like jesus, if my life ever comes to that, shoot me. There was nothing of importance said, no interesting conversations going on, and I pretty much figure its because they dont know enough about anything else bc all they do is take care of their babies. BORING if you ask me. The world is SO much bigger than your whiny, crying children.
I've never felt like having childen, and when I make myself imagine having them they're always already grown up in my imagination and I'm old, it's like I skip the having them, raising them part.

But, I've changed in sooo many ways in the last 15 years (I'm 31) so I try to keep an open mind on some level. Don't usually think about it but was in another thread where they are talking about tubals and vasectomies and I realised I'm still not 100% ready to go through with something like that, "just in case". Is that weird?
my question is this: why oh why do guys think having kids is so "cool"? and why do they go for chicks w/ kids vs. w/out??????????????!!!!!!!
If someone can answer this I will marry them, or at least buy you a beer.
Venetia, I'm the same. I'm about 95% committed to not having kids, but I won't (yet) make that permanent decision about my fertility. Yet I would hate to get accidentally pregnant and try to make damn sure it doesn't happen. I don't think I somehow want them unconsciously... it's an interesting circle.
sat we had a surprise bday party for our friend L and there were 2 preggo ladies there...and since L and B are getting married, there was talk about the bachelorette party plans...we wanted to do a wine tasting but those 2 ladies could not really 'enjoy' themselves with their 'condition' so now we are looking at a spa thing, which will probably be way out of my budget. bleh.

I think in those cases, you do what the bride wants. If she wants to make changes in plans for the preggo friends, so be it, but it is her *one* chance for a b-party, and I for one, would not have changed my plans if a friend happened to be pregnant...they *chose* to be pregnant, and should be gracious in allowing the bride to have the night out that she wants. But that's just me...
cloverbee, I know what you mean about the broody guy thing. I don't even get asked out/chatted up by men ever, yet every girl I know who has kids is literally fighting men off with a stick! What the fuck is up with that? Mind you, I should be glad that the breeder women are keeping THOSE kinds of guys occupied, since there is nothing more off-putting to me than a broody man, euuch. It's just so......wrong!
when i had my b-party, a very good friend was preggo. We did an entire evening of "drinks avaliable" but not required entertainment, none of it planned by me. A sex-toy party followed by a sojourn to a piano bar. Even with a wine tasting, preggo ladies can enjoy appetizers and good coversation. Its not their party!
i definitly wouldnt change my bachelorette party, or any party for that matter for someone who is pregnant. sorry, my day, not yours and you decided you wanted to be sperminated.
clover-because they want someone to be their mommy. *shudder*

I planned a bachelorette party for my BFF in Vegas, and the groom's best friend/best man was married to a baby machine, whom I had to include. We had drinks/presents at the Sands, and she had virgin drinks and went back to her hotel to breastfeed while the rest of us continued on to many highly suspect activities! It never even occured to me to plan the night around her, I mean come on....
but wait, is it msgoofballs party? or someone else's?
someone elses..maddy29...i actually didn't have a bachelorette party since the whole process was put on a fast forward speed....i only had two weeks to throw things together before our vegas trip to the 'altar of love'. hehe.

i just want the bride-to-be to be happy with what she chooses....and not feel obligated, y'know?
Right, so it's not like you can just decide. I think it totally depends on the bride-would she prefer a spa or a wine tasting? also, you don't have to DRINK the wine at a wine tasting! you can just taste it and spit.

Yes, the bride should get what she wants (within reason). And, your budget is JUST as important as these two pregnant women having fun.
When you are at the spa, be sure to comment loudly and often about how gracious the bride was to change the plans for her own special event.
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