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QUOTE(koffeewitch @ Jun 22 2010, 10:22 AM) *
I, of course do have human children, but my animal companions are also like my children. And YES, when your dear, beloved pet is ill or dying it IS, IS, FUCKING IS, like your child. Love is love.

Last weekend, my cat snuck out and returned to the house with a 5 day old, featherless, helpless, baby sparrow in his teeth. I spent the next 12 hours tryng to feed that baby bird every 15 to 30 minutes and keep him warm and hydrated until he died (after which I was and am still really sad and devastated). I've noticed that there are just two kinds of people when it comes to animals, those that "get" the bond between humans and pets, and those that don't really care for animals at all. Those in the latter category are entitled to feel the way that they do...but when the rest of us are grieving over a lost or ill pet, they should have the courtesy to keep their comments to themselves.

Absolutely- my friend's 17-year-old dachshund passed away about a month ago and people told her mom, "it's just a dog"...cod, I'd be a little sad if I had a houseplant for 17 years and it died.

(((((spot-on))))) i'm sorry to hear that your dog is ill.

polly, you are so right. i even get attached to my houseplants... which is why i don't have any b/c i kill them and then feel guilty for ages. i can't even imagine what it will be like when my kitties depart this world. they are definitely part of the family.

I have a girlfriend who has a kid and a mutual friend of ours just recently had one. I got a message about how crazy her kid is and isn't AWESOME that our mutual friend has one and how she wants to get together with me. Can I tell her I will only see if her if I am not subjected to stories about her kid and everyone else who we went to school with that has a kid? I am not interested in your kid. YOUR KID IS FUCKING B ORING! I want to see her to hear about what she is up to not listen to her go on and on about her kid and so and so's kid and blah blah's kid etc. Maybe this is why I ha vent seen you in over a year. YOU ARE BORING and I don't care about everyone and their obnoxious crotch fruit.
end rant

I feel better now.

on another note. I was at the public pool using a noodle to do leg lifts and this little shit with three noodles under his arms swims over and asks me

shitty kid: can I use your noodle?
me: No
shitty kid: Why?
me: Because I am using it. It looks like you ha ve plenty of noodles.

Who does this? No please ,no excuse me m'am. no manners at all . and then after I say no has the nerve to ask me why when he can clearly see I am using the noodle? What is wrong with you and your fucking parents?


even though I was done with the leg lifts I kept using it as this little shit swam away with his three noodles that he already had because I was pissed off.
This is strange to me, LadyJ, I know exactly which of my friends have no interest in children. And this is fine by me, because sometimes I need to have an actual honest-to-maude grown-up conversation. Why do you think your girlfriend rams her kid stories down your throat; she must know how you feel, right??

For the record, I was always wondering why the kids of my neighborhood were always asking me rudely for things: to go to the store and buy them drinks, to get them a cup of water, to make them toast, etc. Then came the days when their parents (who I had never seen or met before) would come to my door asking to borrow money, my pre-paid cell phone, MY CAR, my washer/dryer, my organic sugar (so they can make kool-aid with it) or rides to various places some of which were in definite walking distance. They see me always *walking* to the store and yet they have no problem asking me to drive them there. They saw me walking to the store when I was 9 months pregnant (not to mention I am a full 15 years or more older than many of them). So yeah, somehow people have gotten a sense of entitlement to everything. I hate to sound like some old fogey screaming about how our culture has gone to hell, but some days I really think that people just fucking suck.
MissLadyJ, I run into entitled wee brats in the pool I use all the time. During the most recent episode, I was doing laps when two young girls started lounging around at one end of the lane, chatting and occasionally splashing around. I suggested they move to the free area whereupon they haughtily informed me that they were in the Swim Club. I ignored this as irrelevant and observed they weren't using the lane for its designated purpose, at which point they sulkily moved off--and over to the next lane!

My sister and I were taken to the local university pool by our parents when we were kids. They drummed it into us that we were to stay out of the way of adults and we were never to get into the lanes under any circumstances. I think it's great that kids learn to swim but their parents shouldn't encourage them to use the (membership only) pool as their private playground. It's a great pool which is relatively nearby; otherwise I would join a kids-free club.

when swimming laps and someone doesn't get out of my way I do a flip turn and splash the shit out of them or do it so close they learn very quickly to get out of my way. I am a stickler for lap swim ettiquette even though I cant spell that word to save my life.

this friend is so self absorbed she probably doesn't even stop to think that I am not interested which is why I see her very rarely. I don't see the point in saying anything about it to her. I mostly hang with my single gals or those ladies sans babies.

thank goodness for this space to vent. you all rule!
QUOTE(missladyj @ Jun 25 2010, 07:51 PM) *
this friend is so self absorbed she probably doesn't even stop to think that I am not interested which is why I see her very rarely. I don't see the point in saying anything about it to her. I mostly hang with my single gals or those ladies sans babies.

Missladyj, this friend just sounds like she is boring conversationally in general. Probably why you haven't had the urge to hangout with her. I get annoyed when people use their children as reason why they can't do some social activities, especially sans children. I have a couple of friends that I can be direct with and say, "Hey, you need a break from the kids, your husband, being at home....let's go out for a drink." Of course, I have usually served as the social factor for these friends in the history of our relationship prior to their children.
Sigh.... All, my best female friend has just had her first baby. Well, about 3 weeks ago. I've not had a chance to properly talk to her yet, but we've been exchanging texts and she is struggling. Saying she's just tired and permanently stressed and it's much harder than she expected. I feel so awful, she lives at the other end of the country and there really isn't anything practical I can do for her. Another close friend, who lives on the other side of the world, is pregnant with her second (both pregnancies were unplanned and with her first she didn't even know she was pregnant until she was 5 months gone!), and she really also seems to be sinking, her little one is about 14 months and is a real handful, and reading between the lines of her emails, I know she's also struggling quite a bit, making constant reference to the fact that her and her boyfriend are really broke etc. I sent a pretty underwhelmed response back when she emailed with news of the second pregnancy because I don't think she's ready for it or able to cope with it, but she's going ahead nonetheless. I really wanted to say "do you really want to go through with this just now?", but I feel bad saying something like that over email, even though if we could sit down and talk face to face I would definitely say it. But I bet everyone else just said "oh, how wonderful, so amazing!" Why can't we get past this notion of pregnancy and children as something to always be congratulated on, something to think of as positive when it might in fact be completely the wrong thing for the women going through it? I feel really sad for my 2 friends and I say a secret prayer of merciful thanks for my childfree state all over again....
This is brilliant:

My personal gripe of the typical response when people learn I don't plan to have children: "Oh, you'll change your mind."

I've actually made this fairly lucrative. When people say that, I used to say "wanna bet? I bet you $50 that by the time I'm 35 I will not have changed my mind."

Damn. If only I'd be clever enough to do that, starting when people first started saying that to me when I was, what, twelve? I'd have earned at least several hundred dollars by now.
I was at a pool party and high fived another woman who was also married and had no kids. she said it was nice to meet another married person who doesn't want a kid.

I have also taken to thanking my IUD in public and patting my belly when I tell people about not wanting babies.

When I mentioned to my husband that I will be 41 when the IUD comes out and maybe at that time he should think about a vascetomy he said he'd think about it. Which is progress as far as I am concerned.
QUOTE(missladyj @ Aug 15 2010, 10:45 AM) *
I have also taken to thanking my IUD in public and patting my belly when I tell people about not wanting babies.

Ha! That's awesome.
Okay, so maybe his methods are a little extreme, but who among us hasn't wanted to go ballistic because of A Baby Story, The Duggars, Jon & Kate, et al.?
From today's Jezebel, a bit on CBCers.
Thanks for posting that AP! Very interesting- even though I don't quite get why it's such a frickin mystery to people why not all women want children. I think my only real annoyance is how they're saying now that it must be because of some " high testosterone exposure in the womb"- if that was true wouldn't most men not want children?? In my case, I have never wanted kids and like the women in the article that is something I have always known, but my bf desperately wants children and always has. Does this mean that he was exposed to a high level of estrogen in the womb?? haha am I the man and he's the woman?? Doesn't seem to make sense to me but I guess they have to have some explanation for why some of us women don't want to put up with screaming brats at the grocery store!
I have met some men who are just as baby hungry as some women. I think we fail to see the big picture when we look at something as purely nature or nurture. Humans are bio-psycho-social creatures. Not wanting kids probably has roots in both biological and cultural origins.
I have at least 2 male friends who have always wanted kids and who each set out to establish a family. When I first met them, they were each single and looking; now over 10 years later they're both married and parents, and delighted with their lives.

Then again I remain convinced that men are under far less pressure to actually parent than women--at times, they're actually dissuaded by popular culture from participating fully IMO, which is another unfair discrepancy.
I'd like to get you alls opinion on this theory I's my theory about those people who are always telling you that you'll "change your mind" and want kids some day.

In my experience, the truth works somthing like this. A woman is living her free, independent life and enjoying it. Now, imagine this woman were to find herself suddenly pregnant and in a situation in which she is not able to terminate the pregnancy within the first trimester (and within legal abortion time limits).

Naturally, she feels all manner of terror-denial-panic-angst-rage-depression, etc. She may feel conflicting feelings of being the goddess-giver-of-life and completely helpless as her body fuels another life form without her consent. And she is hormonal and filled with such rage she threatens to slit the throat of the baby as soon as it is born (or maybe it's just me that said things like that during my first pregnancy). But time and her budding pregnancy continue...

...and then, because we humans are animals with 3.3 million+ years of mammalian evolution behind us...her body begins to release more hormones. Suddenly, for the first time she begins to notice babies. She even notices that some babies appear more attractive than others (who knew??) She begins to cope with the situation because the purpose of oxytocin, progesterone and prolactin is there to help her cope...and as it was put in The Mists of Avalon, "the Goddess is kind...She will put love in your heart for the child". (But mind you, this stage only happens MUCH later in pregnancy, like 6-9 months). Then, once the baby is born and the mother loves it...she wants to deny all her initial feelings of rage, resentment, etc. So, instead of telling other women the TRUTH (which is that once you are already pregnant your body will help you deal with it eventually), she turns it into something else. She wants to believe she wanted her baby all along and she planned for it, etc. And the next time she is pregnant (if there is a next time) she looks forward to the new baby with longing from the beginning. And her initial panic-rage-fury-resentment over her first pregnancy is even more uncomfortable for her and something she will never admit (unless she is a Bustie mom and knows that she has a circle of sisters who will not be shocked by her real feelings).

So, that is why mothers tell you that YOU will want kids "someday" and that you will change your mind...they are only trying to convince themselves that it was that way for them. Don't get me wrong...we mamas don't love our children any less just because we resented them before they were born. I even choose to homeschool my kids because I love spending time with them, watching them learn and discover. But I think many other women were sort of dragged kicking and screaming into motherhood in just this way; they just won't ever admit it. Like I said, this is only my personal little theory. What do you guys think?
QUOTE(koffeewitch @ Oct 7 2010, 12:04 PM) *
I think many other women were sort of dragged kicking and screaming into motherhood in just this way; they just won't ever admit it.

Yup, makes sense to me. No zeal like the zeal of the people trying to bury the cognitive dissonance created by resentfully conforming to social norms.

I came in here to post this proposed reply to nosy people demanding to know when you're going to have kids:

As someone who also has no plans to have children, the response I keep in my back pocket is "I've always thought of children as something you need a reason TO have, not a reason NOT to have."
My friend is entering her third trimester & has already become insufferable.

I am absolutely gobsmacked at how ridiculously indulgent & spoiled the western world is when it comes to infants. Above mentioned friend? Actually registered for a "baby wipe warmer". A BABY WIPE WARMER. SERIOUSLY. When I agreed with her husband that it seemed really fucking ridiculous, one of her friends advised that a cold wipe was "inhumane". INHUMANE. That is a word that I would apply to atrocities committed around the world, NOT to a baby having to suffer through a cold wipe.

I swear to god, I am so glad my vajayjay doesn't work.
Umm, what? blink.gif

Your friend is insane! I have never heard of anyone using one of those.
Wipe Warmer. Seriously. There are babies all over the world that are starving & shit, but American mommies need a goddamn wipe warmer. I think I'd rather put that $26 towards a college fund so the baby can use a cold wipe on my ass in the future.
Somebody gave me a used wipe warmer once (I never even took it out of the box). Sometimes when you are dead exhausted and sleep deprived and you know that the ice cold wipes that you just pulled out of the diaper bag that you accidently left out in the cold car will piss your FINALLY SLEEPING baby off all to hell...

...but there is this nifty little solution. It's called a kitchen or bathroom sink. It has nice warm water to run over the cold wipes and doesn't even require being pugged in for 24-7.

But hey, marketing to pregnant women is fucking off the hook insane. FIrst time parents buy all this shit and never use or need it and give it away to people like me. Personally, I don't even bother with a baby crib, the little guys always sleep with me at night anyway.
Hello all!

Anarch - can I say how much I love that reply! As someone who is now in my early 30s I do get some comments here and there about babies and why I don't want them.

Interestingly - my current workplace is very CBC friendly. My immediate boss is childfree- I'm 99% sure it is by choice. She made a comment the other day when looking at a picture of a child that, "I like that and I don't even really like kids." One of my close coworkers is CBC and we sometimes discuss pressures from family and peers (she is younger than I) and another coworker (who is also young) is on the fence about kids.

On a not-so-great note. Joyboy has been making comments lately about having kids. Sigh. I'm wondering when I need to sit him down and make it very clear that if he decides he will not be happy without kids that we might need to think about our marrage. This should not have been a surprise to him.

Finally - it's great to see all of you ladies again!
hey, nice to see you again too missjoy! Your dog pic always gives me a lift. Good luck with Joyboy. Honestly, you think you make things crystal clear, and you know you HAVE made them crystal clear, and yet sometimes they still avoid getting any clue whatsoever.

We just had some family portraits done. At one point the photographer told the mr to say, instead of "Cheese," "More kids!" Har har. Which started one in-law off (not MIL, she knows better): "Yeah, anarch, more kids! Just one kid! You've got to catch up with [pregnant cousin]!" And kept repeating it.

I'd have told her sharply that that's a shitty reason to bring a child into the world and her choice of words was having the opposite effect, but I was trying to maintain a smile for the damned photo so my only reaction was that my smile got rigid.

I'm still annoyed.
Hey there missjoy! Nice to see you!
Thanks for the welcome back! That's awful about the photo - that's right - you're going to have kids to fill in a family photo... wtf?

I'm looking forward to Halloween tomorrow night - we get a lot of trick or treaters so it is quite fun. My only issue, I don't mind kids running across lawns, I understand that it is exciting to get to the next house. I would appreciate however if the parents didn't push strollers over my grass!
Sigh.... Yet another of my friends has bitten the dust. A male friend this time. He just called to tell me his girlfriend is pregnant. She's been pushing for it for a while and he finally gave in. This feels doubly weird for me because whilst almost all of my female friends now have kids, none of my close male friends has gone down this road, until now. I hope upon hope that the rest of my boys stay with me in CBC bliss.
Sigh.... Yet another of my friends has bitten the dust. A male friend this time. He just called to tell me his girlfriend is pregnant. She's been pushing for it for a while and he finally gave in. This feels doubly weird for me because whilst almost all of my female friends now have kids, none of my close male friends has gone down this road, until now. I hope upon hope that the rest of my boys stay with me in CBC bliss.
I know the feeling.
Most of my female friends have kids. The ones that don't have them yet do want to in the future.

The thing that still bothers me is one of my female friends complaining about her boss 'not understandin because she doesn't have children herself'. The thing is this:
She has 2 children, one and two year old. Her husband is not very supportive in taking care of the kids. They both have a fulltime job and now she took a new job in wich she has to travel more. The boss said for those two days every two weeks she can book a hotel there, but with a hubby like that, it is not an option according to her. He is not capable (read: willingly) to handle those two children in their eating and going to bed ritual, so she has to be home during that time of day. They even hire a babysitter whilst he is at home in order for her to go out occaisionnaly. WTF?
I just don't understand that she can't see that she can't have it all! If you want it all, fine, but stop complaining about it. If you're not happy with the situation, change someting.
Why is it so hard to think over your own actions and their outcomes.

I can ramble on and on about it.
I am a bad friend. I am totally skipping my friend's baby shower tomorrow. She's already got a gaggle of boys, this will be her first lady child. But. I. Cannot. Sit. In. A. Room. Full. Of. Mommies! And. Kids! I do NOT want to catch a case of the BABIES! Plus, it's at some photo place in the mall. I only go there to get my nails did.

My young cousin & his gf just had their baby last weekend. He can't even legally drink, but he's got a kid now. ::sighs::

An article from Bitch wondering why it's Selfish To Be Sans Crotchspawn.
I have had to pass on babies showers before. You are not a bad friend at all A.P.

My girlfriends and I threw a baby shower for our dear friend. I made it clear that there would be NO STUPID BABY SHOWER GAMES and that I was bringing alcohol. We had a good time and had actual conversations with each other and there were no kids, not that they weren't invited this is just our first close friend who has chosen to reproduce. PLus I got to drink mimosas. Hurrah!

After the baby is born I went to visit them and they were frantic, exhausted new parents. I did not want to touch the baby and felt like I had to do something practical to help them out since they were so obviously overwhelmed and sleep deprived. I emptied the dishwasher for them and then got the fuck otta there. BEST BIRTH CONTROL EVAH!!

I am also sick of hearing how because I am smart and my husband is a musician that were are the people who should have babies .

I am sick of hearing that we should reproduce because I am Jewish and he is Black and our babies would be gorgeous.

WE ARE NOT REPRODUCING!!! period end of sentence. I am not having a baby because YOU think I should. and yes we would be great parents and have beautiful children you are right but FUCK OFF it's not happening.

end rant.

thank maude for this thread.
A Mom Responds . . .

I have to admit, this does NOT make me feel better about babies being in bars. At all. I know parents need to get out, but takin' the wee one to the bar is just not cool. I should know. I looooved going to the bar/was annoyed by kids when I was three & I looooove going to the bar/am annoyed by kids now. It is obviously not a healthy precedent to set.

Also, there was some FB thing where it was all, "The first five friends on your profile will be your time during the zombie apocalypse". Three were new mommies, one was pregnant, & one had just had a miscarriage. WTF?
New song from Momus: We Don't Have To Make Children
I lived through 3 hours of being in the same room with 8 children all under the age of 3 years old. It was at a birthdayparty of a friend of mine.
Most of my friends are starting a family now. There is no hangin' out in bars anymore with them. Even birthdayparties are held at a more convenient time because of children.

Although i think it's fun to see how some parents interact with their children, it is the best contraceptive for me.
Had a great conversation with my mom yesterday - my aunt became a grandma 3 or 4 years ago, and adores to crap out of her new grandbabies. My mom was so frustrated, "she's boring to talk to now, all she ever does is tell stories about cute things they did or said. I know they're cute. I just don't care all that much." And all without once mentioning anything about how I haven't given her any grandbabies yet. Bwahahaha go mom!
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