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welcome ambercherry. We are always glad to hear fresh views.
lucizoe, thanks for sharing. I find that we have a lot in common when it comes to mental health and reasons to not have a child.
Hi Ambercherry!!! Welcome!!!

I'm with Luci, I get maternal urges with kittens and puppies. My uterus twitches when I go to the Humane Society.

I think I have a child phobia (pediaphobia???). I hate hearing them talk-yell-scream. It makes my skin crawl when they touch/hug/drool on me (I never hold babies). I find them unpredictable so they scare the crap out of me. When I get too close to one in the grocery store I sometimes get panic attacks

Weird? yes, but I'm okay with it.
I am so w/ you on that baby phobia deschatsrouge. I have never held a baby and don't plan to anytime soon. and a child crying is like nails on a chalkboard for me. they say it's adaptive evolutionarily for a child to cry as it brings positive attention to it but I prefer the whine of a little puppydog who needs lovin'. I've got to stay far away from the shelters as I will become a hoarder and you will see me on animal cops surrendering forty of my eighty doggies. ;)
When I was younger, probably up til I was 30 or so I had those maternal pangs. I would vascillate back and forth where mostly I didn't want to have a baby "right now" but wanted one in the future "maybe".

But the older I get, when I see those women with the infants wrapped around them or pushing them in the strollers, I think to myself, "thank god it's you and not me"...or "No Freaking Way!" Or I just shudder to myself and keep walking.

Last fall I went to my niece's wedding. Her older sister had, oh, probably about a four month old baby. MY AUNT put the darn kid in my arms....grr. I kept saying over and over again, "no I do NOT want to hold her, seriously".

I wound up holding her because my aunt basically just plopped her in my arms. I couldn't wait to pass that kid off to somebody else. They make me nervous. I just know they're going to start screaming.
Sorry ladies, I'm a lurking mother, so not sure if I'm allowed here.....
I don't regard myself as the 'maternal type', though am mostly happy with our decision to have a child. I do feel out of place amongst my mum friends sometimes though, as I'm expected to like ALL children. Which I don't.
-Just wanted to let you all know that I read and enjoy this thread!
(Back to lurking)
hi margot! welcome!

I do love holding babies....which is a good thing, since there's always babies here at work - either in the nursery or visitng with their families. BUT, I also love handing them back to their parents when they start squalling. Screaming toddlers are truly the worst for me personally - in full grasp of their me me me status and immensely capable of the classic tantrum. Not for me. And that's ok.
attarill. clearly people died in the world trade center too. it doesnt mean that the didnt get rid of the people on the real flight 93 in a different way. that is kind of what makes it so fucked up. they are just saying that it didnt land in PA.
I'm totally with deschatsrouge and cloverbee on this one. I don't like children being around me. At best, they make me seethe with total irritation. On my worst days I really really hate them with such a passion. They just always seem so incredibly noisy, hyper and over-indulged. I want to tap the woman on the bus whose brat is squalling at the kind of volume that gets rock concerts shut down by the police, and tell her "Know what love? I choose not to have children because I don't wanna have to listen to that kind of noise. This is a public space. If you can't keep your child quiet, maybe you should refrain from bringing it on rush hour busses full of stressed out people who've been at work/school all day and don't need to be hearing this???"
This is really irrational reasoning on my part, but it doesn't bother me as much (not to say not at all!) when my friend's 4 month old twins cry as when her older daughter would throw tantrums at 2-years-old. I've come to figure out that it bothers me less with an infant because about 75% of the time they're crying for a legitimate reason and it's their only means of communication (other than those parents who teach their infants sign language, which I think is so cool!)...but about half the time when they're older and crying it's for selfish reasons, like they didn't get to do what they wanted to do, didn't get something they wanted etc. I know that it's perfectly normal for kids to be self-centered, that it's a psychological stage, but that motivation to cry, normal or not, bothers me A LOT more than an infant who's crying because they're hungry, wet, cold, lonely, whatever. I just want to scream, "shut up you manipulative little brat! Suck it up, you're not going to get what you want all the time, you'd better learn that now!"

That being said, no matter what age the kid is, once they really start crying, I hand them back.
I've noticed (and corroborated with parents) that kids have different cries. There's the heartbreaking wail of a toddler that's just fallen or hurt herself... and there's the monotonous ongoing whine of a child who (IMO) isn't getting enough attention. For which I generally blame the parents.

Kids crying in public annoys me, but the degree of annoyance is based on the kind of cry and if the parents are ignoring said kid. If the kid's being ignored, then I feel as if the parent is not just abdicating his/her responsibilities to their offspring, but also to the rest of us.

Its so easy to be self-righteous when you're not a parent yourself though...
I agree with everybody, I really don't like being around kids either. The only exception are my nephews and niece. But god forbid they ever find this out, I can only handle them for so long. I hope that doesn't make me a bad aunt. I love them, but kids just aren't my thing.
This is so interesting, I don't have a problem being around kids per se, at all. They're just small, challeneged people to me. I get on well with some and not with others. It probably helps that my own childhood memories go right back to my cradle so I can often empathise.

There are certain infants in my life who I really like spending time with. But I just don't feel maternal urges. I protect kids the way I'd protect anyone who is vulnerable. But I don't want to be physically and financially responsible for them much less invent a whole new one.
ahhh ginger it doesnt make you a bad aunt for only wanting to be around them for so long. thats why being an aunt is so great. i wouldnt be surprised that when they grew up they would totally agree with you!
I agree with Katie. You need not be ashamed of having a low threshold of pain.

I think I'd like to be an aunt or a really cool old next door neighbor lady. I have decided that I'll be really creepy for most of the year and then at halloween give out full sized candy bars. As for being an aunt, I will not tolerate misbehaving but I will serve chocolate cake and scambled eggs for breakfast.
Whoops! Don't let this thread die!

I love conspiring with the children of my adult friends! It's great to be the "fun auntie"...and I don't have to deal with any of the resulting behavioural problems!
as the resident breeder-lurker...i think serving chocholate cake (it has eggs and milk!) and eggs for brekkie is a spectacular treat to be shrared by all the spoilers in a babe's life...aunties, grammas, moms on a "good" day! And, i can only be around my own daughter for so long when she's fussy...fussy kids suck despite the biological ties one might have to them.
I do love spoiling the shit out my nephews and niece, giving them tons of sugar, then dropping them off to thier mom. It's also great fun to get them to do/say things that they are to young to realize is inappropiate.

But I am still die hard about never making babies!
I taught my boyfriend's then 3-year-old nephew a Snoop Dogg joke (probably the only child-friendly one in existence!) "Why does Snoop Dogg carry an umbrella?" "Fo' drizzle" I was so proud when he re-told it, unprompted a few months later at Easter brunch! He doesn't get it, but he knows everyone laughs when he tells it.
I do that with my half brother whenever my father brings him over. He is 5, and my father is almost as strict with him as he was with me. My sister and I are always telling him, "Don't listen to Dad! If you lived here, you could do whatever you wanted."
I'm at my parents house. There is a non-stop stream of teenagers coming and going at all hours. HELP! After being around teenagers so much I am starting to understand why some animals eat their young.
That's hilarious deschats....

I just have to revel in my childfree evening here, just a tad. I picked up sandwiches and homeade oatmeal cookies for turboman and I for a picnic dinner....yummy. And then, we went downtown to see SPAMALOT!!! It was such a fun show, and I splurged and got us really good seats, and there was not a child in sight. Better yet, it was real adults, clean, tidy, no BO, and hints of cologne mingling in the air. Lots of laughter, it was a great night. And then we took a walk around the theater district before hopping on the train, and napping our way home. Wonderful!
I had a wonderful child-free evening too. I just got back from New Orleans and am still basking in the afterglow of so much wonderful FOOD! So I went to our local seafood center and got a bunch of oysters and made a great grilled oyster the backdrop of a CD I got there.

The weather is perfect here right was great to sit and watch the sun set off the veranda eating those delicious oysters. Yum!

Just a bit of tiramisu and it woulda been PERFECT. :-)
Argh! I am one of the childfree peeps with no love for the little ones. I don't wish them ill, I don't want any of them to go hungry or have poorly-funded schools or lack of sex ed. None of that. Future of society, blah blah blah, I don't mind paying the extra in taxes if it means I don't have a lifetime of anxiety. I just don't really care to interact with them excessively.

The station that broadcasts my favorite radio show runs McGruff the Crime Dog ads every so often, featuring McGruff and his nephew, voiced by a little boy singing in a bluesy/jazzy sort of way "Scruff-McGruff-Chicago-Illinois-65256" or something. Kid repeats this like, eight times. I have to mute the computer because his voice fills me with inexplicable rage. He just sounds smarmy and this makes me want to hit.

Blah. Cranky.

Oooooh, your evenings all sound so fab! I think tonight might be a "let's randomly open one of the champagne bottles and celebrate the first semen analysis results!" night.
Bwahahaha - champagne and sterile celebrations - I love it!!! Sounds like a fantastic night to me!!
I envy you and your champagne. I have to help out at my brother's high school graduation party. It's times like these I wished I had a lobotomy or ketchup laced with oxycontin to deal with the mass numbers of people under the influence of excessive amounts of hormones and pizza. The worst part of the whole ordeal will be the teenage girls, I HATE teenage girls they are the most vicious creatures known to man. They'll be worse at three A.M. when the party gets over. *deep breath* God damn it I can get through this. I know I can! Wish me luck. I'm going into the lions den.
Goodluck, sounds terrible!

I am thinking lemondrop martini's at the corner bar to celebrate, my child freeness!!
I made it through. The party was epic. There were two hundred kids and they ate through nine of those giant subway sandwiches, ten dozen doughnuts, eight dozen cookies, eight gallons of lemonade, five pounds of m&ms, fourty pizzas, four pies, countless gallons of soda and 250 bottles of water. All of this was consumed in a five hour time period. The party was done and cleaned up by five thirty AM. I didn't have any alcohol but I have a hangover anyway. My parents owe me big time for helping out.
hey guys,

i just wanted to say....i love you all.

this is one of the only places i can talk about my dislike of children and not get looks or remarks about how i must be the anti christ or someone saying "you'll change your mind one day". so, i just wanted to tell you that.

deschats...congrats, i think my head would have imploded. i SO share your sentiment on teenage girls, they are vapid and horrendous humans in general these days it seems.
I have to bitch about bad parents.

It was really rainy and shitty last night so my boyfriend and I decided to rent a movie and eat cookies. We were in Blockbuster and this small girlchild was SCREAMING the whole time we were there because she didn't get her way about something. Really, really loud. I must have read the back of one of the movie boxes 68 times because I couldn't concentrate.

The mother wasn't caving in, but she also wasn't doing anything to stop the tantrum. I wish parents would have the decency to remove their child from the premises if they're causing such a disturbance!
Awww. Katiebelle, I agree with you. I can't say I *hate* kids...but I don't care to be around them.

hellotampon, that must have been awful!!!

Props to (((deschatsrouge))) for what sounds like a real challenge!!!

I love my childfree busties!!

*by the way, I'm pretty well FULLY recovered by now. My belly button is a different shape than it used to be though. But not in a bad way. :-)
I'm not having any and I'm OK with that. I like being able to hold a child or baby sit and hand them back. And Ed and I decided we wanted to be the bizarre cool couple down the block that does the insane halloween decorating and gives out mountains of sugary treats to kids, on a school night, so that they spend hours on the sugar high rolling in their beds, waking up with lil sugar hangovers the next day, as their parents just are bleary eyed and spastic cause their children were bouncing off the ceilings all night long.

AHHH let a girl dream.
So....weirdest thing. Had a long phone conversation this weekend with the boy I dated in high school. Twenty years later! He's become a man for whom marriage and family are his number one priority. Which doesn't surprise me, and I'm very happy for him.

But I keep thinking - this doesn't sound very nice - about what a narrow escape I had! I mean, not him...I think he's turned into a terrific man by the sounds of it, and I probably would have enjoyed his companionship if we'd stayed together. BUT...he got MARRIED at 23, the exact time I started wondering whether having kids would give me purpose and fulfillment. And I can't help thinking, wow, what if I had ended up with him, and thought children would give my life meaning, and then had them? I could have very easily gone that way at that age, and perhaps not even questioned it!

And I can't help thinking how miserable I would have been as a mom, no matter how good my relationship was.

And in the spirit of loving friendship, I hope he is looking at his wonderful family right this very minute, and thinking about how blessed he is to have that, instead of my crazy-ass life! :-)
Yeah doodle, isn't life funny that way. My hs bf left me and started dating a woman who already had one child, and within 2 years, they had three. She left him, and he was a single dad of 3 at age 20. And he's a spectacular dad, and now remarried, but I'm still glad its not me.

Solitude is still a high priority for me, and I'm glad I have a partner that honors that.
my hs bf who I thought would be THE LAST person to EVER have kids has one now. I still can't believe it. he never wanted kids. I guess all that can change. people change. it's wierd.
I lurk here a lot and I'm finally posting. Clover, I do think people can change their minds. I'm in the midst of that myself -- maybe.

When I was a kid, I never saw myself wanting to have children when I grew up. I don't even know if I ever pictured myself all grown up, either; I thought I would die at 27 like Hendrix and Morrison did. And 27 seemed so old.

I was the sort of kid who lived at the library; I didn't play with dolls all that much (with the exception of Strawberry Shortcake and Blueberry Muffin, and I think that's because they smelled good) and never dreamed of weddings and babies like some little girls do.

But now... I don't know. I'm just saying I think I could be a good parent to a child who doesn't have any parents. I don't yearn to reproduce, but I get really sad when I think of all of those children in China.

I really like the idea of being the "eccentric/fun/easy-to-talk-to" honorary auntie, though. I like having this kind of relationship with my cousin's teenage kid.

To be continued when I can form more coherent thoughts...
maybe one day you can adopt, raisin. or be a foster mom or maybe just a big sister to a disadvantaged youth? I've thought about all of those options and I may one day choose to pursue one of them.
Funny, my hs bf has 3 kids now, the oldest almost 10, and he's *such* a dad. I have no way of knowing this for sure, but I bet he's a really good dad too. Looking back, I think he always wanted a partner and kids, even when the rest of us were running around happily unencumbered, so it's nice to know it's worked out for him.

Makes me think of the Bob Dylan song: ' ain't me, babe.' I'm happy for him, but no way do I want that kind of domesticity. So it looks like everyone got what they wanted.
*growl* ranty rant

So, the lab that is supposed to be testing the samples to determine presence of sperm is run by a group of morons. From the assumption that we were giving them the sample to determine motility ("Uhhh, you took this sample more than an hour ago. Anything in there will be dead." Yeah, no shit sherlock. READ the fucking paperwork!) to the latest, a phone call telling us that something was wrong. Which, naturally, THEY couldn't possibly tell us over the phone. No, we had to wait the weekend so the almighty DOCTOR could call to tell us that the lab fucked up (as in, just threw the bottle away without testing it, again because someone assumed we were trying to make of the babies, and the method of collection wouldn't work for that) and now we have to do MORE samples.

And of course, no one has apologized for being incompetent and likely won't. I'm sorely tempted to idiot proof the next batch of samples with a black marker:

"This sample has been collected in order to determine whether or not sperm are present. We could give a flying fuck whether or not they're still swimming when you test them. We just want to know if they're there. We are not here to up our fertility chances. Believe it or not, we don't WANT any sperm present. Please pull your heads out of your collective asses and do your fucking jobs!"

I'm pissed. Maybe irrationally so, but they wouldn't even apologize for messing up! This seems to be a trend, in my experience, with the medical field in general. No one will ever take responsibility for any fuck-up, from receptionists messing up scheduling appointments, to doctors misdiagnosing something. It's like "I made a mistake. Sorry." isn't even in the fucking vocabulary.

Lucizoe, often no-one will admit to having made a mistake as that statement could be taken in a case against them (for negligence, damage etc). Which means their lack of stated culpability sucks more than ever. I hope you hear something concrete back from them soon.
we are talking about how all these guys we know changed their minds. but not to long ago we were talking about how people have kids just cause it's what you do. i would be willing to bet this is the case for alot of these guys. or any of our friends even.
i mean, as we have often said, its not like any of them will tell you they made a mistake.
I just got back from dinner at a chinese restaurant that to my dismay was loaded with children. I thought breeders went to Mcdondalds? Kidding but it was hell!!! Three babies were crying, one was throwing rice every where, and an older toddler kept crying he didn't want to eat there. I thought a vien on my Mr.'s forehead was going to explode.

Oooh, a Big Sister. I like that idea, Clover.

Well, that must have been a very short phase. I was so so happy to have last night all to my selfish little self. I ate oatmeal for dinner and didn't have to explain to any child why it's important to eat balanced meals! hahaha
I am so, sooooo, tired up people w/kids dropping comments like, 'you just don't understand. Everything changes when you have kids' Some parents use that to justify everything! It makes me sick!
I hate that too ginger...I debated someone once about marijuana legalization who actually dropped that as his closing argument (he was against, I was for). I had debated him into a corner and out came the "well, you'll understand when you have kids." (*sorry if I've told that one in here before -- it stands out as a revealing moment to me.)

And it's the same thing -- you can be making the most rational, level-headed, understandable decision not to have children, and people will still throw that at you.

"I'm too poor." = "But everything changes when you have kids. You make do."

"I don't like kids." = "But everything changes when you have them. It's different when it's your own kids."

"I don't want to give up my life to clean up feces and vomit." = "But everything's different when it's your baby's feces and vomit."

I think the next time someone's trying to talk me into it, I'll say that I have a short temper and am afraid that I would shake a baby to death. I'm honestly curious to see if people would still try to convince a woman to reproduce even after she's told them that she thinks she'd be abusive.

btw, hi thread! I've been gone a while
Oh, not only does the "when you have kids of your own" commentary drive me crazy, but...lot! That guy just used the stupidest reason for opposing marijuana legalization that I've ever heard! It's easier for kids to get marijauna right now than to get liquor! If it were legalized, it would be regulated and harder for minors to access. People can be so illogical. (Obviously you were winning the debate, if that's what he had to resort to.)

I HAVE actually told people I don't want kids because MCFD (the local child welfare) would be on my doorstep. Some people think it's a great joke, but others put on this soothing, almost patronizing voice, and say, "Oh, no, I don't believe that at all. You'd be a great parent." ARGHHH!!! And I work with abuse victims - you'd think people who know this would trust my own self-assessment!!

I spent a glorious weekend making messes all over the apartment so that I could work on organizing and re-decorating my bedroom. SO nice to be able to leave messy paint cans and power tools and dangerous stacks of stuff around without having to worry about them!
doodle, that was THE line of my legalization argument that reduced him to the "you'll understand" comment. He was arguing about dangers to kids (the gateway drug argument, which chaps my hide) and when I presented him with all the reasons why legal is safer, he just stopped arguing.

I don't mind when parents tell me how their outlook has changed since they've had kids. But to imply that I cannot accurately assess a situation -- whether it be a social issue or a my own personality -- because I do not have offspring is always condescending.

I have mentioned to people that I think I would be an impatient parent. And the response is that same one, "Oh no, I think you'd be great." But I have yet to mention baby shaking.

Huh. I always took the "you'll understand when you have kids" argument as defensive on the parents' part. Like I had touched on some insecurity of theirs that they were ill-prepared to have kids when they did. It never occured to me to think of it as condescending. I always felt kind of embarrassed for the person telling me "you'll understand when..." because I think they're telling me more about themselves than they probably mean to.
yeah, sixelacat, that's what I get from it too. Still pisses me off though, like lot said, that some people presume that not only do I not know my own mind, but that I apparently walk through the world completely devoid of compassion and social conscience simply because I haven't forced a fetus into the world. Especially since most of the parents I have come in contact with are ANYTHING but altruistic. The rest of the world's children can starve and die of all manner of horrible things as long as their kids are safely ensconced in their gated communities.

Blah. I'm SO GLAD to not be working at that fucking elitist high school anymore!!!
Everything lucizoe said.

Except the part about working in a high school. 'Cause I never did that.
Ok, I know this isnt' really fair, but I'm feeling really pissed off at all the people who have kids when there are like a zillion of kids already alive that need families.

Did anyone watch that abc special or something where they are doing this photography project to help kids get adopted?

I'm just feeling cranky about it-lucizoe you put it really well with the gated community thing. gak.
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