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I am flying overseas next year, and I'll bring the ipod with me so I don't have to listen to the evil darlings. And I'm going to fly first class.

Flying is very hard on a child, it's hard on an adult, and most adults have good coping mechanims. Great that you want to show your child the world, but think about how stressful this is on the kid.
As I've probably posted before, I am not totally childfree. The mister's teenage daughter started living with us fulltime this year. She is a good kid, and I'm resigned to living with her and am trying to contribute as best I can. However, seeing the work and hassle involved in looking after a kid--even a big kid--has utterly reinforced my determination to not have a child 'of my own'.

I mainly have a problem with all the boring mundane decision making and logistical planning that goes with childcare. Then today provided another example of the kind of banal family life I want to avoid. Her aunt is taking her out for the day, with her own 2 young daughters. They all came through our door as I was chilling out reading the Sunday papers. Cue noise, chaos and me being obligated to find plates for their sandwiches, which they dropped pieces of all over the floor. Conversation was pretty boring, comprised of tales of childhood mishaps. I kept the indie radio station I had on as a tiny act of rebellion.

I am okay with living with the mister's daughter and occasionally it can even be kind of nice. But the influx of other people's children into my home, when I'm chilling out on Sunday morning? Never again. I'm going to go for a walk so I miss them when they come back. An hour of banality with a bunch of kids is too much for me.

ETA: I've just been for a huge walk and they're still not here, which means I can expect the troop to walk through the door any minute now. I'm going to go upstairs and work--I have stuff to do, I can't hang around entertaining these people for the second time today.
I just want to clarify that I do care about the mister's daughter and that we have a good relationship which I think is important to both of us. I also know how important it is to both of them that her dad finally has custody of her, at least for now, and I'm trying to accept the situation with good grace.

I don't mean to derail the thread; I post here because I agree with the title and idea of this thread. Sometimes I wish it was just the mister and I living in the city proper, instead of out here in the 'burbs to be close to her school.

*sticks head in*

due to my parents' job, I've been flying regularly long-hall since I was a toddler (two years and three months, to be exact) and my brother was a baby. It's not exactly hard to keep a kid entertained; you make sure your flight is overnight, don't let the little ratbag sleep until they get on the plane, take some small toys and colouring books. bingo. entertainment central. oh, and the sweets to make thier ears pop.

but i freaking hate parents who don't make sure they are the ones looking after the kids. When the mothership lived in libya, I know the air stewardesses were actually paid more because the flights were so stressful as the little boys are so damn spoilt they make life hell for the rest of us.
Actually that reminds me of last summer, when I was travelling on a packed train. People were standing in the aisles and everyone was trying to stay calm as the carriage was absolutely boiling, and there was this absolutely spoilt little boy who was alternately sprawled across or standing on two seats, yowling at the top of his lungs, while his mother and father took turns to smile adoringly at the little monster.
Oh, I've become quite the curmudgeon anymore. I'll ask the parents to move their little darling. Or I'll say something directly to the kids. Running and climbing the supermarket aisles? "Hey, you can't do that!" I was in a small office at the US Embassy a couple years ago, forget why, but there was a woman with two boys, aged 6-8-ish, and they were chasing each other around, pushing and fighting. I told them to knock it off, in full earshot of the mother. She ignored it. And this room was small, like the size of a kid's bedroom small. I wanted to strangle them all.

And OT, but I need to rant a bit. This week a helluva storm knocked down two pine trees in our garden. One fell over our steps, the other outside, slightly into the yard of the flats next door. Now mind you, it was the middle of the week and the tree isn't blocking anyone's access to their yard, isn't blocking the door. We've been trying to get someone out to remove it but there are trees down all over the area. So Hubby was gonna do it this weekend. This morning the bitch neighbor rings the doorbell and complains about the tree. Now, I would understand if it was causing problems, smashed their plants or something, but it's a cheap ass rental property and it's too damned cold to spend time outside anyhow. And we both fucking work during the day and it's too dark when we get home. So hubby is home now with a chainsaw cutting the damned thing up so the neighbors will STFU. BTW, these are low rent flats (€250) where the county puts the ASO's (anti-social) to get rid of them. I felt like telling her to shove the damned thing up her ass. Anyhow, <rant over>
Mornington, ratbags! I love it!!!

I've brought parents to their children in retail and old them that I am not a babysitter and having children run around is not acceptable, especially with children getting snatched. I recall on a few occasions, where we had an amber alert (some little brat went missing in the store, so we lock down until the thing is found) and parents have told us they left their kids in the kids section when they went to browse elsewhere! Morons.
LeBoy's sister suggested at dinner last night that his parents take us to Ireland in honor of his dad's upcoming 60th b-day. I thought it was a good idea until I realized she intended on bringing her kids with. She suggested summer of '09, so her kids will be 3 and 1 by then.....if his brother brought his kids, they'll be 7 and 3.....this is becoming to seem like less and less of a good idea.

I just don't want to be the Ugly Americans, with the brood of children, having to tailor the trip to the children's needs...I'm just going to be bitter about it if it happens.

My mom suggested that I remind them how much the f-bomb is dropped there. She said it's not a trip you want to take encumbered by children. She also said that if I have the chance to go to Ireland, I should, under no circumstances, pass it up. Oh, the conflict.

Polly, I think I'd head out there, no one is saying that you have to spend time with the family 24/7 right?
Ireland is FULL of smokers. I mean jam-packed. I got stopped and asked for directions by some fellow American's and was so flattered that they thought I was local ( I am fiercely Celt) til I realised that we, like they, stood out for Not having cigarette's in hand.
it also wasn't very pro-family in some ways, (we had frecklette w/ us & she was 8 & yes had to cover her ears for the language sometimes) but then again the pubs do allow children so I guess it's what you're comfortable with and that was Dublin too.
other places might be different? ( I'm saying all this for you to use as ammo against le boy's sister bc a trip like that (it is fantastic & I didn't want to come home) could be horrible w/ sticky little anklebiters to cater to!)

I popped in to ask if anyone here had any opinion or experience w/ the new sterilisation method of Essure? I am scheduled to have it next month and am a little... anxious I guess you'd say. not about the concept, just the procedure & follow up.
or how it stacked up against a Tubal? (altho it's highly unlikely that anyone would have had Both to compare equally- doh!)

= sorry to interrupt any current discussions=
Smoking is now banned in public places, like pubs, though, right? Obviously, you can't stop people from smoking on the streets (well, you could, but that would be Singapore!)

Yeah, I think his family would be really hurt if we didn't spend the majority of our time with them, and I already know they're going to stick to the tourist-y places. In his family, his sister and her husband are the only ones who've been there and they went before they were married and did a arranged tour. When my parents went a couple years ago, they were totally fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants...they booked the rental car and B&B they stayed in the first night ahead of time and after that it was all spontaneous. They stuck mostly to western Ireland, never even bothered with Dublin. Like my parents, LeBoy and I are more adventurous travelers who like the off-the-beaten-path type places.

freckle, I've been interested in Essure for awhile, but haven't done it yet. I have a link on my computer at work for a forum I found about it. When I go back tomorrow, I'll post it.
Smoking is banned in Ireland in pubs and restaurants; an attempt at cafe culture has taken off in the last few years which means there's more child-friendly places. Keep in mind Ireland will be expensive if you're coming from the US: it's pricy anyway and the ongoing currency difference will accentuate that.

Personally, I find travelling in biggish groups can be really frustrating, as decisions about what to see are arrived at by consensus: a recipe for simmering resentment. But that's just me: I prefer travelling either alone or with my mister, my sister, one good friend or (oddly?) my mom.

I wouldn't travel with kids myself. I think you'll get more out of a place if you can tailor the trip the way you want it. If you do decide to go post in the travel thread and I can suggest some places...
Yeah, I'm going to try not to get my undies in a bunch about it until it actually happens, but thanks for the ammo!

Here's that Essure forum for you, freckle!
that forum is fantastic & much more open and upfront than the essure website where most of the women sound like they are on a sacchrine/codine drip.
there are a few specific questions I am going to post there as I haven't recieved a response from the essure 'ask patty' or whoever the hell it is section.
a million thanks to you !!

as for Ireland and the smoking ban; I'd forgotten about that, but really, it was on the streets that it most suprised us and we were never really as aware of it as when we were in a throng of people.
I am hyper about smoky places (bc weirdly it make me sleepy) but in the pubs it never bothered me. go figure?
but anyway, Germany is near as bad for the smoking, and probably a lot of places in europe period so I guess my feeble arguement for you went down the tubes?
ankle-biters w/ you or no, I def still think you ought to go if you get the chance.
(go & shop at Avoca & see all the Martello Towers.. one of my favorite Irish quirks laugh.gif )
polly - what if you went to Ireland but had your tickets extended? Then you could spend time there without the family, after they leave, and enjoy it properly.

I've been thinking lately about those anti-abortion bumper stickers I keep seeing around that say "A Child is Not a Choice." And funnily enough, I keep thinking of the phrase, not in terms of the abortion issue, but in terms of the actual phrase itself. A child is not a choice? What? What are they really trying to say? I'm starting to read a deeper subtext into the message: not only must you not abort an unwanted fetus, but you must not refuse to fulfill your god-given duty to pro-create, period. And I know this has ALWAYS been the underlying message of the anti-choice movement, but it's like I really had one of those crystal clear moments of understanding, and it makes me wonder why so many other people can't see the obviousness of their message. You know? Does this make any sense? I don't know. I just know the bumper sticker phrase has really been bothering me lately, on all kinds of different levels, because it goes directly against what I believe: a child IS a choice, period. You make a choice to become a parent, just as you make a choice NOT to become a parent. Why does there have to be this expectation that you MUST become a parent, just because your body can do what any other animal's body can do?

I've been working two jobs lately, and in one of my jobs, one of my managers is childfree by choice, too. She is 59, and, like me, always kind of "knew" from a young age that she didn't want kids....and it's SUCH a relief to have an older role model like her, who is still sooooo very happy with her choice! She's been with her partner for 26 years, and they only just got married, for fun and for themselves....she seems so at peace with her life.

Because honestly, amongst other co-workers, when the discussion amongst parents rolls around to their kids, or when their kids come into the room, I just blank out. I have ZERO interest. I cannot relate. At all. The most I can ever muster is a whole lot of empathy for the workload of the parent. I just don't understand the drive to parent, I really don't. I can't imagine many things I'd rather do LESS with my life.
Doodle, I completely agree with you on the anti-choice bumper stickers. The ohter one that really gets to me is the "abortion is the worst form of child abuse". Uhhhh...not to get into an anti-choice rant here, but children, as much as I really don't like them, grow up and remember. They'll remember the way one treats them if they are treated good or bad. the bad having far worse consequences.


See, I was talking to a coworker yesterday about children, and he's a really sweet man. We got into the issue of me not wanting kids and he said, well I thought the same thing, and now I have a child, etc. It didn't bother me coming from him, but still not everyone wants to breed. He did agree with me on the babies looking like slime covered aliens when they are born though. It's like you're some sort of freak because you don't want children. The world is fucked, it's time to stop making more things that will fuck it up further.

Absolutely agree with your last paragraph doodle. I feel very lucky tonot to have experienced that biological urge people describe.

Conversations about parenting are unedifying and boring and I'm always thinking about all the work involved for the parent too. I know people get a lot of joy from their kids, but honestly, there's a lot of dull labour involved: buying food for picky eaters; making sure their chores are done reasonably well and the endless tedious discussions about when and where the kid has to be driven and what time they need picking up. Does no-one take the bus anymore??? I took the city bus from the age of 10 and as a result I was independent from an early age, rather than reliant on being chauffeured around.

Um, can you tell I'm venting? unsure.gif

CH, your co-worker may feel differently about kids now that he has one, but....he is a GUY. Parenting is STILL a lot different for men than it is for women. A LOT different. I think it's easier for them to feel different once they have a kid - for them, fathering comes with a different set of expectations, and they play a way different role in their kids' lives than mothers do. Some men do CHOOSE to play a role in their kids' lives that is equal to a mother's, but it's still usually their choice, in a lot of ways. And many more men THINK they're playing an equal role, but you know, when you observe the family, you can see damned well that they're not. I know things are changing, but they haven't changed as much as they need to change for parenting to be equal.

The lack of equal parenting has always been one of the main reasons I never wanted kids. There was always no way on earth I was going to take on something that had a 90% chance of becoming mainly MY responsibility.

Ohhh syb, I totally feel ya on the driving kids around thing!! Some of my friends say stuff like, "Well, it's a different world now." Okay, so maybe it is. But you know, I live in a town of about 100,000 now. I GREW UP in Vancouver, which - I can't remember the population when I was younger, but it's around 2.3 million now. And it was a pretty dangerous city even when I was 10. And yeah, I rode the bus everywhere! Every other Friday, I used to meet my mom downtown after her work ended for the day, and we'd go eat fast food, shop, and go to a movie, play, or concert, or do something like that. I also used to go downtown to shop for myself. I always took the bus right through the Downtown Eastside, which is considered one of the "worst" neighbourhoods in Canada! And my friends are telling me it's not safe for their kids to take the bus through this little city, population 100,000? This town's development is nothing even remotely close to the dangerousness of the city I grew up in, and it's not safe?? Or maybe your kids are just whiny and manipulative, and maybe also you have them signed up for too many damned things and they can't get there on time on the bus....remember when kids were allowed to just be kids and keep themselves entertained? (And you know, the world was pretty dangerous when I was a kid, too - it's just that things like pedophilia weren't discussed openly....besides, kids have FAR more to fear from a relative or family friend than from a stranger, and we still don't talk about that very much, either.)

The other night, one of my younger friends (21) said he was scared to walk over the bridge at night, because somebody was murdered there once....nine years ago! Puh-leeze. I stepped around my first stabbed body when I was 11, outside the Dairy Queen with my mom.
Parents need to tell their children not to talk to strangers! Parents are so afraid that someone is going to snatch their child and whatnot. Teach them otherwise!!!! Parents also need to be open with their children and tell them that is something happens, to tell them about it. Parents should be squeamish about this kind of thing. This is what you took on when you became a parent, to educate, teach and lead your children.

Doodle, I totally agree with you on the unequal parenting bit.
But the thing is, strangers aren't so much the problem....most kids are sexually abused by someone they know! Of course, there is the danger of people kids meet on the internet, but for god's sake, they are doing that while they are at HOME. Nothing wrong with monitoring the kiddies' internet use. BFF is a parent and foster parent, who has network control in her bedroom (locked when she's not around), of all the computers in her house. She keeps basic track and also turns net access off when she's not home and at 10:00 every night.

My own mom says part of the problem now is that many parents seem to want to be their kids' FRIEND, instead of their parents. So they do let them do their own thing on the net, and otherwise, and concentrate on getting their kids to like them and giving them access to whatever they want, instead of concentrating on being, as you say CH, the leaders of the family.
I think when parents claim they want to be their kids' 'friend' that they are (consciously or otherwise) abdicating a parental role to some degree. I think this just confuses kids: they need their parents to be parents. If parents are so insecure they need their kids to provide them with self-worth, then they're looking for their kids to validate them in ways which aren't healthy and which blur important disciplinary boundaries. Kids like and need routine, for example; not shopping trips with mom or dad.

I utterly utterly agree that societal expectations remain fixed on mothers to provide the bulk of childcare. Every damn time I see articles about the pressures on moms I want to scream. Where's the dad in all these articles? It's insulting to fathers too: the mister hates it, he feels men as fathers are marginalised, and I agree.
Word on the internet bit. I do not think that a child should have access to internet in their room. Parents need to monitor their child's computer usage.

What I meant about the stranger bit, is don't go home with some wackjob who approachs you. And in terms of the abuse by family members, that's when you talk to your kids and tell them to tell you if something happens, reiterating that it is not the childs fault and you will not be upset with them about said abuse.

You can't be friends with your children. Even as you get older, my mother is still the mother. Granted I'm a whole lot more open with her, as I can be. She woldn't freak about some things. But as a parent you are the authority.
I take care of an old lady, and her daughters came to visit today. They always bring the 4-year-old granddaughter. She's cute, but very demanding and spoiled.

I always play with her all day so the daughters can actually visit with their mother. If I don't, she gets upset that she isn't the center of attention and starts acting up. Today I tried to take a break for a few minutes and told her that I'd play with her as soon as I was done making my to-do list. Well she still wouldn't leave me alone so I sat down and played My Little Ponies with her. Everything has to be her way- like she tells you exactly what the ponies are going to say to each other, etc. I did the exact opposite of whatever she said until she got so mad she went off and played quietly by herself for over an hour. She wanted me to pretend that the police were arresting a pony's parents for making fun of it and I said, "well he's going to arrest HER instead because she was a bad little pony."

I felt evil but it was the most fun I had all day.
= I hope it's ok if I jump in here again, even though I'm not CbC? = ( totally ok to tell me I promise)

I agree w/ not being your kid's friend. that's not my job.
my job is to set perimeter's and create a safe and loving environment for her.
later when she's grown, that's a different situation, but right now? huh uh.
her friend's, now that's a different story. freck's friend's all think I'm cool, bc I do try to be the more real mom, the one you can go to if you need advice or might have a problem bigger than yourself bc I'd rather them come to me than 'get it on the street's' if you know what I mean, and then & I try to provide freck w/ friend's of Mine she can in turn go to as well if she ever can't come to me directly.
but I work really hard at that. talking to her about sex and the dangers of the internet (bc they are indelibly connected now) is tough. she has a laptop, and internet access, but not the 2 together.
when she wants to be online, it's here on the family landline computer and she know's that everything she does & everywhere she goes online are free game for us checking (+ we use the parental controls too) & while I try for the most part to respect her privacy, I'm also ok with calling her out on anything questionable I find & then we discuss it. it's my job as her parent, not the school's or society's, to educate, inform and protect her bc I love her so much.
freck & I are pretty close, considering the occassional oil slicks of typical mother-daughter dynamics but even if we have a bad day, the next day is bound to be better usually.

too many parents give in and give up bc it's "hard." hell yah it's hard. look at the kind of person YOU turned out to be. you didn't hatch from an egg and raise yourself you know.

doodle: your post at 11:44 Am /1st paragraph- right on.
this morning: the mr got sick in the night/wee hours last night. he was off work today and so was agree'd before bed last night that HE would get up w/ frecklette & get her off to school bc I had a dr's appt this morning and for Once could sleep in.
but then he got sick.
and so by 30 minutes till freck had to walk out the door, he was still in bed 'wa wa wa I'm siiick.'
and so of Course I ended up getting up (bad back & all) w/ a huge amount of resentment bc how many Hundreds of times have I parented sick/broken/exhausted regardless?
it's not the same for men & women. not even close. and the mr is a good Dad. he's totally involved in her life & makes a specific point to spend one on one time w/ her just to hang out, but it's still not the same. however, he works and I stay home so the childcare dynamic is automatically split differently from the get go.

= just my .02, sorry for the interruption=
The cost of raising a child. Besides your sanity of course.
forgive me, but i'm barging in briefly (btw, does anyone else think it's hysterical that it says that i started this thread???!!! i know i didn't!!)

i read over culturehandy's link about how much it costs to raise a child and i find it interesting that there's no mention of how much it costs to raise a special needs kid. only the "normal" need apply, huh?
A child-free friend of mine just sent me this, thought I'd share. Enjoy! wink.gif

Thinking of Having Kids?
Do this 11 step program first!

Lesson 1
1. Go to the grocery store.
2. Arrange to have your salary paid directly to their head office.
3. Go home.
4. Pick up the paper.
5. Read it for the last time.

Lesson 2
Before you finally go ahead and have children, find a couple who already are parents and berate them about their...
1. Methods of discipline.
2. Lack of patience.
3. Appallingly low tolerance levels.
4. Allowing their children to run wild.
5. Suggest ways in which they might improve their child's breastfeeding, sleep habits, toilet training, table manners, and overall behavior.
Enjoy it because it will be the
last time in your life you will have all the answers.

Lesson 3
A really good way to discover how the nights might feel...
1. Get home from work and immediately begin walking around the living room from 5PM to 10PM carrying a wet bag weighing approximately 8-12 pounds, with a radio turned to static (or some other obnoxious sound) playing loudly. (Eat cold food with one hand for dinner) 2. At 10PM, put the bag gently down, set the alarm for midnight, and go to sleep.
3. Get up at 12 and walk around the living room again, with the bag, until 1AM.
4. Set the alarm for 3AM.
5. As you can't get back to sleep, get up at 2AM and make a drink and watch an infomercial.
6. Go to bed at 2:45AM.
7. Get up at 3AM when the alarm goes off.
8. Sing songs quietly in the dark until 4AM.
9. Get up. Make breakfast. Get ready for work and go to work (work hard and
be productive)
Repeat steps 1-9 each night. Keep this up for 3-5 years. Look cheerful and together.

Lesson 4
Can you stand the mess children make? To find out...
1. Smear peanut butter onto the sofa and jam onto the curtains.
2. Hide a piece of raw chicken behind the stereo and leave it there all summer.
3. Stick your fingers in the flower bed.
4. Then rub them on the clean walls.
5. Take your favorite book, photo album, etc. Wreck it.
6. Spill milk on your new pillows. Cover the stains with crayons. How does that look?

Lesson 5
Dressing small children is not as easy as it seems.
1. Buy an octopus and a small bag made out of loose mesh.
2. Attempt to put the octopus into the bag so that none of the arms hang out.
Time allowed for this - all morning.

Lesson 6
Forget the BMW and buy a mini-van. And don't think
that you can leave it out in the driveway spotless and shining. Family cars don't look like that.
1. Buy a chocolate ice cream cone and put it in the glove compartment.
Leave it there.
2. Get a dime. Stick it in the CD player.
3. Take a family size package of chocolate cookies. Mash them into the back seat. Sprinkle cheerios all over the floor, then smash them with your foot.
4. Run a garden rake along both sides of the car.

Lesson 7
Go to the local grocery store. Take with you the closest thing you can find to a pre-school child. (A full-grown goat is an excellent choice). If you intend to have more than one child, then definitely take more than one goat. Buy your week's groceries without letting the goats out of your sight. Pay for everything the goat eats or destroys. Until you can easily accomplish this, do not even contemplate having children.

Lesson 8
1. Hollow out a melon.
2. Make a small hole in the side.
3. Suspend it from the ceiling and swing it from side to side.
4. Now get a bowl of soggy Cheerios and attempt to spoon them into the swaying melon by pretending to be an airplane.
5. Continue until half the Cheerios are gone.
6. Tip half into your lap. The other half, just throw up in the air.
You are now ready to feed a nine- month-old baby.

Lesson 9
Learn the names of every character from Sesame Street , Barney, Disney, the Teletubbies, and Pokemon. Watch nothing else on TV but PBS, the Disney channel or Noggin for at least five years. (I know, you're thinking What's 'Noggin'?) Exactly the point.

Lesson 10
Make a recording of Fran Drescher saying 'mommy' repeatedly. (Important: no more than a four second delay between each 'mommy'; occasional crescendo to the
level of a supersonic jet is required). Play this tape in your car everywhere you go for the next four years. You are now ready to take a long trip with a toddler.

Lesson 11
Start talking to an adult of your choice. Have someone else continually tug on your skirt hem, shirt- sleeve, or elbow while playing the 'mommy' tape made from Lesson 10 above. You are now ready to have a conversation with an adult while there is a child in the room.
Holy Fuck Cecilia, that is so funny, I want to pick my favourite part, but I just can't, it's all so hysterical.
<snork>....that was FREAKING HILARIOUS!!!! laugh.gif
That's something someone with or without kids can enjoy! So funny!
oh lordess! it's funny because it's true. well, mostly. hehe
*goes to post 11 steps on myspace.
that was so funny!
i was particularly amused by lesson 7. sadly, it's very true!
This one's for humanist! Hee hee hee!
d'oooh, I just came in here to post that!!
i was gonna do this until i realized i may not be the best candidate... wanted to pass along anyway. here's the add i got it from... Egg Donors Needed - $5500/donation

anyone done this or considered doing it?
I considered doing it while I was in grad school and barely making enough to live on. But then I forced myself to really think about it. One of the reasons I don't want kids is that I think there are too damn many of us here. And donating an egg would just bring yet another kid into the world. I understand that some people would be great parents but can't conceive. But I also know that there are lots of kids of every age stuck in horrible foster systems, just waiting to be adopted.

And the drugs they pump you full of before they harvest the eggs really mess you up.
I've seriously considered it. I know that they pump you full of nasty stuff and that there are kids in foster homes....but it's so much money. This was during more desperate times though, when I could barely pay my rent and tuition. Now not so much.

And while it's true that many people are looking for blonde hair and blue eyes, I've heard that a lot more people just want someone who looks like them-so it almost doesn't matter how you look.
It's interesting how there is still the desire and sense of "ownership" (for lack of a better word) in terms of people wanting children. I can understand that some people want children so badly, and are willing to pour out tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of dollars so they can have something come from them. With all that money a couple is pouring into fertility treatments, they could use that money to adopt. It makes me wonder if a child who doesn't look like the parents isn't worthy of adopting. does that make sense? I suppose what I'm trying to get at here is that with some people there is the driving need to be a biological "owner" of, and to ensure that they have created something.

It's like survival of the fittest on steroids or something. It's like some people just want to put their names (or in a case like this) their genes all over something, even if the egg is donated, the mother would still carry, thus still have the sense that she "created" along with the partners sperm.

I know that a friend of mine explicity told me that she feels like a failure as a woman because of her fertility problems. It really does illustrate how mich emphasis is placed on a woman feeling (whatever feeling like a woman means) like a woman and apparently being successful as a woman by giving birth.

Little OT, I know. But with the amount of money, why not save the life of a little girl who would otherwise be tossed aside?

I'm so glad I found this thread. I have been reading posts for hours now and you guys have been saying all the things that run through my head on this subject. I suppose I felt the need for some comforting validation, which I have found by reading these posts.

I think the thing that bothers me the most is this recurring accusation that child-free persons are "selfish" (and I think this is mostly directed at child-free women, as opposed to men.) This label "selfish" seems to be the popular insult of choice, thrown around by those particular parents who for some reason feel the need to attack those who choose not to have kids. But I don't understand WHY do they give a crap if I have kids or not? How is it affecting them that I don't have kids?? In fact, aren't I making even LESS of an impact on them (and the world itself) by not reproducing? A few people on this thread said that they felt like there are already so many babies on this earth (many that aren't even wanted) and I feel the same way. Why are these people so threatened at the idea that I may not be adding yet ANOTHER human to this already crowded planet?! So why don't these people get back to changing shitty diapers and wiping baby puke off their shirts or whatever the hell it is they love doing so much and stop worrying about what I'M doing or not doing?

I must say, I can't help but think that the major reason behind it is simple: >>>>jealousy<<<< which of course leads to resentment

Now I'm not at all implying that I think all parents are this way -- I have nothing against parents. I'm simply referring to people who feel the need to go out of their way to instigate and attack those who choose to remain child-free. I resent being harassed by people who seem to think they're something special just cause they pumped out a litter of larvae, like any living organism can do.

It makes me angry when a parent would call me selfish because I honestly believe there are many selfish things about choosing to have kids. I mean, ok, so what are the reasons people have kids? And sadly, I know a lot people who have children for selfish reasons! I know people who have kids and it seems they're more interested in the kid because it's a new bauble to flaunt around and show off. Same as the puppy they got the year before who is no longer a puppy and no longer novelty and now just gets ignored. I know people who have kids and get off on the glory and attention and everyone fawning all over them but are lazy and careless when it comes to actually doing the work of parenting. And I completely resent the whole Hollywood celebrity baby-craze of late. If I see one more fucking "OMG Baby Bump Watch!" article I'm going to puke. If I was uber rich and could have a full time nanny to raise the kid and hardly have to see it and I could still go out every night and schmooze and booze and have someone cook for me and do my hair, hmmm... I could pump out a puppy or two I think. I mean c'mon how is Victoria Beckham constantly all gussied up to perfection and being seen and photographed out in these fancy places? Ever see her in sweats and greasy hair and looking haggard while clomping around Wal-Mart with three kids in tow? Nope.

I'm not trying to take anything away from parents, and the whole child raising experience. But it gets me crazy how some people become so self-righteous once they have kids. They act like they're the only ones in the world who have ever experienced life, love and happiness. They become know-it-alls and suddenly I "don't know what I'm missing." They feel they have the right to question me about my CHOICES in life. Hey I'm not the one screaming in the restaurant and throwing tantrums and food. I'm not the one running amok in the grocery store and annoying other customers. Why get on my ass about it?

Ya know what, come to think of it I guess I am kinda selfish. I can confidently say that yes, there are things I currently enjoy that I don't want to give up! I don't want to have to give up my alone time. I want to come and go when I please. I want to sleep late if I want and then stay up all night watching Three's Company re-runs and eating fudgesicles until I'm sick. I think I'm ok with that.
My friend just turned 20 today and she's pregnant because she wants her 35-year-old boyfriend's family to "accept her." They're still close with his ex wife and so she thinks if she has a baby it'll legitimize their relationship or something. And now they're engaged.

He's thousands of dollars in debt, he's on the road all the time, and she just got her first real job (before this she hasn't been able to hold one down because she's so flaky and irresponsible), but whatever.

I don't understand what the rush to have a baby is for. She's just soooooo omg like totally in love with him!!! I'm like no, that's called "infatuation" from being together only a year, when you are a frigging teenager!
Heyya everybodies smile.gif~

Kinkaju: Welcome to the thread. I love what you have to say. One thing that struck me was your pointing out that this question of WHY NO KIDS? is rarely directed at men. Funny, isn't it? It's as though everyone understands fully and completely why a man wouldn't want to change diapers and spend time with screaming babies. But they just can't figure it out, can they? Why a woman might possibly ~ for any reason under the sun ~ just can't think of any reason at all ~ WHY??, a woman might not want to. *snort*

And I think most of us gals here have definitely sensed jealousy for sure. It's almost like there's this unspoken rule that women have silently taken on most of the responsibility for child caretaking, just decided to do it, since they can't seem to force daddy to help much. So they don't hold men responsible for much of it. So when these same people see a WOMAN who refuses to do it, yeah...maybe they take out that anger or that sense of unfairness for all of the work...on that woman. Displaced anger. Perhaps they should take it out on Baby Daddy/Deadbeat Daddy/Whomever is the Daddy ~ and hold him responsible instead?...then they wouldn't have to be so jealous of us happy, go lucky, carefree bachelorettes? Hmmm...
either way...
fine with me...
just as long as I'm still...

Hellotampon: Hmm. Well I guess I just don't know what to make of your friend. ?? Perhaps one day she'll wake up and realize what a dumb dumb she is? I wouldn't count on it though. No offense. But she sounds pretty clueless. P.S. At 20, she's no teenager. She's a woman. Now I know a couple of 20 year old women who are GREAT at making decisions...real smart, funny chicks!
I totally agree with y'all, men do NOT get the same amount of shit about this. It's certainly more acceptable for men to simply say they aren't wild about kids and aren't too interested in having them. But if a woman publicly voices the same opinion, she's considered to be either deluding herself, or some sort of hard-nosed careerist shrew who doesn't know what's really important in life. What can we do? Just keep on keeping on I guess!
And if a man decides at 25 to get a vasectomy, he probably isn't going to get questioned by the doctor. Me, I'm left hoping that I can find a doctor who will permanently fix me in the next few years (I'm 28 now.)

That crazy woman in Arkansas is pregnant with #18. And people question why I'm not having kids?!?! I think she's made a great contribution to our over-population problem already, thanks!
Polly seriously?

the Duggers are having number 18? When will that woman's uterus die and fall out?
No joke, dechat- she could end up with a prolapsed uterus at some point, where the muscles will just give out. I've heard some horror stories about that. My grandma, who had half as many kids as the Duggars, occasionally has to go in and get things adjusted.
Book recommendation: Families of Two
I noticed that more often these days, I'm encountering couples who don't want children. I ran into the husband of a couple I know and he had his god son with him and he said that after he goes home, they see why they never had children.

People treat those ofus who don't want children like freaks, and I for one am sick of it. I don't care about marriage and I don't care about having kids, it just irritates me that because I don't go along with the societal "norm" of breeding I'm a flunky and a bad woman. hmmph.
Heh...this is why I love Bear. We were sitting at a cafe in the window watching the people outside and I saw an obviously pregnant woman go by and I said, "there goes another contributor to our overpopulation problem"...and Bear snorked. He gets me.

Yes, I'm an ass.
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