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I do have a baby (and yes, she was nasty-looking when she was born), but I have to admit that my cat's Christmas stocking was at least twice the size of the baby's....!
I'm so glad I found this thread! I love kids, in fact the main part of my job involves me working with children/teens age birth - highschool. So maybe I'm odd for not wanting my own. On a selfish note, yes having to take care of a munchkin for the next 18 years (or more if they are on the irresponsible side) doesn't sound like fun to me. It's not that I blow tons of money on myself or anything like that, it's just that I get little free time as is and I would like to remain sane if possible. My mom realizes if she gets grandchildren they will be from my brother and she has no desire to bother me about having kids like her mother did to her right.

Also, there are too many people on this planet as is. The best way to lower your carbon footprint isn't to recycle and buy hybrid cars, it's to not reproduce or if you must have kids, adopt one instead. There are plenty of kids out there in need of a real family!

I guess the thing that annoys me is that I'm 25, a college grad, have been working in my chosen career for 3 years, am fairly well established financially, and am in a serious long term relationship yet people assume that I will change my mind and want children later. From what I've read it's near impossible to get a doctor to agree to sterilize you at this age unless you already have a ton of kids, have a serious genetic condition that you don't want to risk afflicting potential offspring with. It also seems that males have an easier time getting the ok for a vasectomy but that's probably just because men aren't expected by society to necessarily want children. It irks me. I could have an abortion, but I can't get sterilized until I'm too close to menopause to bother.

whew! That's a lot off my chest. I've been wanting to vent that for awhile. Any thoughts?
Welcome home, anonymoose! I agree with every thing you said. Well, except for the part about liking kids. They just creep me out, and I usually seem to return the favor. I get along with my 6-year-old brother, but that's it.

I notice that so many people are talking about our childfree decision as being a selfish one. And don't get me wrong, that's one of my reasons. But I think that having children is very selfish too. That child isn't asking to be born or conceived, that's the parents' decision. The world isn't asking for more children - again, that's the parents forcing that on others. And then there are plenty of parents who have kids, and just go on being selfish, and the kids suffer.

I can't remember who it was, but a few pages ago somebody mentioned that the only reason why she would have a kid is to see what it would look like, and she said that that wasn't a good enough reason. I wanted to hug her for the second half of that statement. It seems like people have kids for reasons about that good, but don't think it through to realize that it's not a good enough reason.

If my parents never had me, I wouldn't be bummed. I wouldn't have missed out on anything, because I never would have existed, so I wouldn't be around to know I was missing anything.

*feeling rant-y*
Anonymoose, in a lot of places, if you are under 30 and want to get fixed, your doctor has to send you to a psychiatrist or psychologist. Now this is only for women.

Word obelix! How would I regret that my parents never had me, if I didn't exist! The logic of some peple I tells you.
"Anonymoose, in a lot of places, if you are under 30 and want to get fixed, your doctor has to send you to a psychiatrist or psychologist. Now this is only for women. "

That just bothers me! So for a women to not want children = get therapy but for a guy to not want children is seen as natural. *shakes head* I realize that there is a higher medical risk for women to get a tubal versus a guy getting a vasectomy, but you'd think if they were going to require a psychiatrist visit it would be mandatory for both genders. I need to look into this more.

Here in the NYTimes. Y'know, it wouldn't bother me so much if parents parked their strollers out of the way, or brought collapsable ones. And if they took their kids outside and dealt with them when they screamed. Or took them home when they got tired or out of control, but you know they don't. The world in not your playpen and we are not your babysitters.
Strollers should not be in bars because babies should not be in bars. This comment by one parent in that article especially enraged me: '“This was a perfect winter moms’ group place for those of us with infants going stir-crazy” , referring to the bar before it started banning strollers.

Having said infant was your choice. Do not inflict the conequences of your choice to have a kid on childfree adults who want to have a beer in peace. Sheesh.

Small children in museums bug me, but I can at least understand why a parent would want them to experience a museum. I can see no reason for kids to be in bars though, and plenty of reasons for them to be barred (sorry for pun). Bars, with drunk people and a higher chance of accidents, are not safe places for kids.
QUOTE(sybarite @ Feb 11 2008, 02:44 PM) *
Bars, with drunk people and a higher chance of accidents, are not safe places for kids.

And swearing people. I'm thinking there should be a group started calling "Swearing off kids" or something like that. Whenever kids are spotted at inappropriate locations the childfree should start swearing like sailors. You know the moms would go apeshit if you uttered too many "Fucks" around their little darlings.

I live in Europe where you see kids in neighborhood bars sometimes, but for the most part parents are pretty good about knowing when the kids should be taken out. IOr there is outside room for them to run around. If I went to a fancy restaurant though, and there were kids I'd be DAMNED pissed off. The fella and I go out to dinner occasionally where we pay at least a couple hundred euros. If someone had young kids there I'd be livid. Go to a fuckin' chuck e. cheese.
A baby in a bar???

Wow, talk about starting them off young.

Syb, I agree, these women chose to have children, why not get together in someone's living room to get out?

I get that you are driven to drinking because you have a kid, I guess I'll have to put up a strippers pole in the middle of gymboree, or whatever the hell that kids store is.
Ha ha, yes! a stripper pole at Gymboree would be totally 'appropriate' for some of these parents.

I look around and scratch my head at some parents? Like, it used to be that, okay, you've decided to have kids. so grow up, stop partying and start being a parent. Remember when Chris Rock said: (something about a chick hanging out drunk at a bar...)'get your party on. or get your kid on. but you can't get your party AND yo kid on!'

On the profanity tip, I was recently at the punky boutique down the street and some hip momma came in with her 5 year old shopping. The store had the music cranked to Black Flag (forget the song name right now, but it's a Dez one that ends in "i don't want to fucking [something?], i just want to ... diiiiiiiiiieee". It was SO loud and I was singing the song when the kid came round LOUD, getting my kicks being an adult in my adult location, with the kid standing *right next* to me. laugh.gif
I totally kick up the f bomb sometimes, especially if there are bratty kids. If anyone says anything about me being courteous, I'm going to ask them to why they aren't being courteous and leaving their kid at home. Hee.
Okay, that babies in a bar thing is just ridiculous! And also that idiot mom who talked about breast feeding her kid and then getting a martini? WTF!

I'm childfree by choice right now because I'm only 23. Someday I will probably squeeze one out. But if I do, I will not be bringing it to a bar or a fancy restaurant! I hate these parents who just want to go everywhere and do everything they did before having kids. It's not the same people! You now have a small human that is your responsibility!

Also, every time I hear about parents bringing their kids into inappropriate places I think of that one episode of Sex and the City where Samantha is in a fancy restaurant next to some little brat that is playing with his fettuccine and pesto with his hands.
the uk pubs that article talks about are one of those that do food and drink - so I can see why there are families in there at certain times of day. I can remember going for pub lunches as a kid, but it was usually early afteroon, and we weren't allowed at the bar. I mean, if they're going to eat, then ok. But I can't see the point of bringing a kid to a pub when you're just going to drink - it's not the place for babies, and they're not going to get anything out of it (if anything, the kid will just get bored). And with the size of some prams these days, banning them is just fine - they're too big for confined spaces

also, what's with the whole five-year-old in a pram thing? seriously. he's big enough that you can't shop in mothercare anymore. make him walk.
seriously, morn! I just saw like a 4 year old in one the other day, and he was literally too big for the thing! He was overflowing the seat and his legs were nearly dragging on the ground.
No wonder little children are so overweight...

Speaking of which, I'd like to know why some parents find it acceptable to plunk their kids down in front of the television instead of doing stuff with them.

From what I see, I believe that about 99% of the people I come into contact with, see & treat their children as nothing more than objects, little 'things' to have in their lives, like cars & houses.
you may be referring to a post I made. My husband is Black and I am Jewish and I am convinced that if we decided to reproduce our baby would be absolutely fucking beautiful, but my vanity is not a good reason to pop one out. so no.
I've been in a very dark mood lately so I decided to re-watch some of my fave comedy flicks last night. My first pick was (like, my 30th viewing of) "Romy & Michelle's High School Reunion" ~ did anyone see where Michelle walks up to the former homecoming queen who is pregnant and announces that it's her third kid...Michelle's eyes widen in surprise and she replies: "WOW, three kids? You must feel really tied down." laugh.gif Queenie responds THROUGH CLENCHED TEETH "No. I feel very fulfilled." ohmy.gif in a tone that clearly announces Michelle has HIT A VERY RAW NERVE.
I can see how some people find children fulfilling, I'm just sick of people telling me that I don't know how I feel about having children. don't think that because you thought you didn't want children that my situation is the same as yours.
My sister-in-law is pregnant again...only about a month. She is due in October. She already has a 1-year-old whom she leaves with my mother and father in-law when she is at work, 5-days a week, 7 a.m. to about 7 p.m. They also leave the child there a lot on weekends, even overnight, if they decide they want to go out. My issue is that she never asked them if they wanted to practically raise her child and now that she is having another one, they will have to watch it too. My husband and I, because we don't have children and do not want them, often get our plans broken with his parents because his sister will suddenly have an "emergency" and need them to watch the baby. Am I jealous? Yes! I don't understand how having a child and then not taking responsibility for it gets you the preferred treatment from other family members. I will say my husband's parents were not overjoyed at the news of a new little one, however.
Oh my god, sassy. That seems ... a bit much? geez. So basically they just don't want to pay for daycare?

I freaked myself out the other night. My boyfriend and I were watching Futurama and the frog/alien/whatever he is gets pregnant and his girlfriend is all ambivalent about it and then his eggs hatch and they say "in 20 years they'll turn into baby frogs and we'll be parents" and I was thinking that I wished that if I got pregnant I wouldn't have to deal with it for 20 years.

Then all I can say is that I lapsed into what felt like a dream state and started thinking about having babies. It was weird.

I figured my hormones would kick in eventually. My mother didn't want kids and then one day she just *had* to have a baby and obviously she did have them. I'm just hoping that I don't end up with the same result. I'm ovulating right now and sometimes I feel like my body wants to get pregnant, but I've always been clear-headed about it. This was the first time my mind was like, "must... have... kids."

Have any of you felt this way? I REALLY don't want a damn kid. Ever. So the hormones are a nuisance.
oooh, that would seriously piss me off, sassy.

did anyone see oprah on friday? this couple had a hard time conceiving, but they ended up with twins. after that, "they wanted to know what it was like to have just one baby" (she said, while making a pouty face of guilt), so they decided for in vitro and ended up with six kids. that in itself made me furious, but then the couple went on to describe their daily routine, and they admitted that they went through 1,200 paper plates ever other month. WTF?! you have these kids, you're stuck doing 3 dishwasher loads a day...tough shit. suck it up and do a few more loads, don't fuck up the environment even more just because your stupid selfishness landed you eight brats.

and brats they are. oprah and the audience was oohing and ahing over the kids, even though they were screaming and crying and fighting on stage. of course, the mom "is tired but wouldn't have it any other way!" i couldn't watch any more after that. i was thoroughly disgusted.
Ech, that does suck, sassy. The same thing happens in LeBoy's family...his parents don't watch the kids every day, but there's still that preferential treatment that goes on. Both of his siblings have 2 kids each. His sister lives closer his parents and we live closer to his brother. We occasionally babysit for his brother's kids, which isn't bad. They're 5 and 2, but it's certainly enough to remind me why I take those magic pills every night.

Were they the family who has that show on TLC, faerie- the father's Asian and the mother is white, blond hair? Cod, I've seen a few minutes of that show here and there and to me, it just seems like all they do is yell at the kids and fight with each other. No one to blame but themselves.

speaking of TLC. I saw an add for a new program about how the producers of this show take stay at home mothers who are former working women, and secretly film the life they left behind.


I've said it before and I'll say it again. I cannot fucking stand Oprah. Wow, those people on her show are selfish douchbags.
I'll tell you who to blame for the family with 8 kids - their fertility doc who implanted so many fucking embryos. They already had twins, they were 24 when they had twins, 27 when the other litter came...did the doc *really* need to implant 6+ embryos when they already had previous success with invitro? Implanting that many embryos should be illegal.

When I worked at the adoption agency, we offered counseling services to fertility center clients, but as you can imagine, the docs wanted no part of our services, nor the legislation we proposed for ethics in fertility treatments. Its a dirty is adoption, of course, for all those "facilitators" and lawyers who do it privately....I have a real problem with the commodification of fertility, when its so damned hard for so many women to get healthcare for themselves and their children, not to mention abortion and family planning services. Clearly, these issues still rile me up....can't help it. smile.gif
QUOTE(hellotampon @ Feb 25 2008, 03:01 PM) *
I figured my hormones would kick in eventually. My mother didn't want kids and then one day she just *had* to have a baby and obviously she did have them. I'm just hoping that I don't end up with the same result. I'm ovulating right now and sometimes I feel like my body wants to get pregnant, but I've always been clear-headed about it. This was the first time my mind was like, "must... have... kids."

Have any of you felt this way? I REALLY don't want a damn kid. Ever. So the hormones are a nuisance.

I'm 25 and have never had that happen. I have many reasons but I absolute abhor the thought of having kids of my own despite liking kids and working with them daily. If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? I want to know if I should have to watch out for that later! lol.
My pastor's wife asked me out of the blue when I'm going to have a baby on Sunday at church. I gave her this look like WOMAN ARE YOU NUTS! And she backed off. I swear I get that question about twice a week now. Its ridiculous. The next person that asks, I should tell them, WELL we're practicing about 5 times a day just to see their reaction. LOL That should shut them up. but i doubt it.
Culturehandy: I've seen the previews for that show. The marketing line for the show is something like "Find out what their life would have been like if they hadn't had kids." It's all kind of sad. Maybe if people just really thought about what kids do to your life and aspirations BEFORE they had them, they wouldn't have regrets about their decision.

This girl at work, who went to a REALLY expensive private college where I live, is planning on getting pregnant and then never working again. She wants to sell Mary Kay for the rest of her life. A girl whose parents probably spent $80,000 on her three degrees isn't even going to use her education. I don't understand. She asked me when I was having kids (it's always "when" and never "if"), and I told her nope, I don't like them. She just sort of looked at me like that wasn't an option. Finally she said, "Well...I guess you'll have more time to travel...?"
QUOTE(anonymoose96 @ Feb 26 2008, 03:10 AM) *
I'm 25 and have never had that happen. I have many reasons but I absolute abhor the thought of having kids of my own despite liking kids and working with them daily. If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? I want to know if I should have to watch out for that later! lol.

I'm 22.
I'm 25 and have never had that happen. I have many reasons but I absolute abhor the thought of having kids of my own despite liking kids and working with them daily. If you don't mind me asking, how old are you? I want to know if I should have to watch out for that later! lol.

I'm 22.>>

I'm 40, I've had it happen a few times and I think it is hormones. Powerful stuff. But if you truly don't want to be a parent then rationality tends to prevail. That said, expect to get the "when are you having kids" comments for about the next 20 years or so. And then when you don't reproduce expect to hear from people asking you why. Unless of course you live and work in a more liberal environment, which thankfully I do. That plus I'm more than happy to tell people to fuck off, on more than this topic, so people don't generally give me shit about things. I get asked if I have kids but get no lip when I say no. I recently had friends of my parents ask if I had kids and when I said no they said nothing else about it. If they did I'd just tell them I don't want to be a parent and if they had a problem with that I wouldn't have a problem telling them off. But being friends of my parents I doubt they'd expect much less.
I was asked yesterday about not reproducing. When are you gonna have kids
Me: never!
HIm : why not
Me: I like being able to go out drinking till 4:30 am at a hip hop show, sleeping late and not having to pay a second mortgage called day care

hIm: what do you do then?

Me: we are busy people we have a life just no kids

why do people find it so hard to believe that you can not have kids and be happily married and have a life that doesn't revolve around crotch fruit.

Just cuz you are miserable and broke doesn't mean I have to be .
Yeah, missladyj, I often feel like I am TOO busy and/or stressed to have kids! I have a hard enough time finding time to spend with my husband some weeks! tongue.gif

Here's a great article on being childfree.

I'm 30, and my ovaries have yet to speak to me. I hope they continue in silence. heh.
agreed. It's like people think that if you don't have kids you must just sit there staring at the wall and wondering what to do with your time.
That's a great article Turbojenn!

I had a refreshing conversation with a workmate yesterday, and bear in mind this lady is a mother of 3!

Me: I've never really wanted kids.

Her: Yes, my sister is like you, always said she didn't want kids since she was in her teens. And she never had any, and you know what? She's happy as Larry! It bugs me when people say to women "oh you'll regret that decision". They wouldn't say that to a man who said he wasn't planning to have kids!" '

It's just nice sometimes to have a conversation about this subject with a parent who doesn't immediately get defensive!

The next time someone asks me what I do with my time because my life doesn't revolve around crotch fruit, I'm going to tell them I play with myself all day.
LOL! awesome.
you are fuckin HIGHlarious.
another great thing about being childfree

going to the record store and the comic book store Yee haw

right now I am jammin to a record by Roy Ayers and Fela Kuti

Yee Haw!!
Best headline ever! By way of

Okay, so. I have a need for thoughts and advice. I am starting to get back into the dating world again, after basically being too sick and burnt out for anything for nearly a year. And before that, my long-term relationships were pretty much only with women, but now I think I want to be with a man. How and when do you start to bring up the "I don't want children" issue with men? 'Cause I don't want to scare them off by discussing children and other future stuff too early, but I don't want to get involved in something that's going to end in tears and disappointment because we didn't know we weren't starting off on the same page. Anyone?
Doodle, I always let them bring it up first. It doesn't have to be a deep conversation. It could be something like:
Him: aww look how cute that kid is.
You: He is cute, I enjoy other peoples kids, but I'm not interested in having my own.
Him: Oh. ok.

If it doesn't come up you could bring it up whenever you have a discussion about what your individual futures might be like. Talking about it after three or four weeks of dating sounds right to me. It's not too soon but you and he are not deeply invested.

Tell me if you think I'm talking out of my ass.
I have no idea if you're talking out of your ass, deschatsrouge! tongue.gif I honestly don't know. I feel like dating men is a whole new planet for me. The last serious relationship I had with a man was when I was 25, and then it's only been serious relationships with women, or casual sex with men or women. I keep thinking, I'm 39 and childless - surely that should be a clue to them that kids are not in the cards for me, without me ever having to say a word. But I look a lot younger, and since getting sick and nearly dying last year, I think I probably act a lot younger, too, so my "real" age isn't necessarily a convincing factor. wink.gif The guys I'm interested in, and who seem interested in me, seem to be a bit younger than me (I'm seeing a guy tonight who is 31), and at "that age" when they are probably starting to think in terms of family. So I'm getting a little worried.

I did have a girlfriend once with whom I was very clear about not wanting kids, and then one day, at a Canada Day fireworks show with kids running around, she turned to me and started trying to sell me on adoption!
double taco
Thanks for that great article, Doodle! I think that's one of the few reasonable articles I've read from "Reason" magazine....mostly their stuff is a little extreme for me.

I wouldn't sweat "the conversation" too much for awhile. And he might just be of like mind to you anyway. I think a woman clear on her intentions when it comes to family planning is a beautiful thing indeed. wink.gif

I do really enjoy seeing more and more pro-childfree articles in the media...makes me happy to see media reporting "our side" of the story too.

I agree with deschats. I would not sweat it too much but if there is an opportunity to mention kids throw it into the conversation. If that doesn't happen than wait until it feels right.

I also think that it is possibly less freaky (from a guy's point of view) to mention casually that you don't want kids than to mention that you do - if someone start talking about wanting kids it sort of gives the feeling that they have a plan and want to move on it. Not wanting kids kinds of gives a more relaxed feeling to the pace of the relationship (so long as they aren't crazy about wanting kids, but then you've gotten it out there).
From the Globe and Mail today.

There is this article which touches on children and travel. Of course there is a pro child element, but it does state "And take control of your own chidlren. 'There are alof of times that people don't want to control or discipline their kids, so they make us (as in the flight attendant) do it'."

There was a second article I can't seem to locate on line, but it goes into the issues businesses are having about how Generation Y and breeding. Companies are having a hard time keeping up with the number of peole take parental leaves. I think I should be rewarded by my place of work for NOT taking the time off. Or better yet, why not give me the same amount of time off that people take for parental leave. It'll be my vacation time!
What is sad is that the bad parents that travel with their kids often ruin it for parents who actually have a handle on their kids. My friend who has a little girl, was treated very badly by a stewardess who probably dealt with too many badly behaved kids. Because so many children are badly behaved airline workers begin to assume all children are badly behaved, which isn't true.
Thanks for the input everyone! It's so tricky, isn't it? Although I have to say, even when I was dating women exclusively, it was getting harder and harder to find queer women who didn't want kids, even though it used to be more of a given. rolleyes.gif

I think that's very true, that there are a few parents who make it bad for all parents, whether traveling, or in restaurants, or wherever. I remember sitting on Greyhound once, with a kid kicking the back of my seat over and over again, and his mom sitting right there beside me! I was only about 19 then, and not very gutsy, but after about an hour of turning around and glaring, I did finally turn right around and say, "If you don't stop your kid from kicking my seat, I'm going to ask the bus driver to do something about it." That worked, though why the fuck should it have to go that far? Isn't it obvious that it's WRONG behaviour? But I've also seen lots of parents who work very hard, and become very frazzled, to keep their kids under control for the sake of the rest of us. I think kids can be really hard to control, especially when they are frustrated by traveling, and you can definitely see the guilt on some parents' faces when their kids are being monsters. But yeah, some parents do ruin it for the rest of them.

What pisses me off about traveling is old ladies who smile and coo at monsterish children, and then give me glaring looks b/c they can hear a tiny, tiny bit of sound leakage from my headphones. mad.gif
I was on a plane once and I was trying to sleep with my head on the lunch tray thingie and once the kids in front of me figured that out they kept putting their seats all the way back and repeatedly slamming their bodies against the seats, trying to crush my head. I was 17 at the time and finally ended up pouring my water on them. At this point they ran to tattle to their mother (I don't know where she was the whole time) and when she came back I said, "Your children are brats" and she just looked at me like "Oh no, not MY kids??" and started yelling at me.
Call me evil but I really think that parents on long haul flights should carry baby Benadryl with them to knock their little darlings out. I fly internationally a couple times a year, and without fail, there's always a screamer or whiner on board. Or maybe airlines should create a children's section with a barrier for the rest of the plane. I don't sleep on flights but sometimes I can close my eyes and get some rest. A couple of weeks ago on a flight from Detroit to Amsterdam there was a kid, about 4, rocking back and forth in his seat, alternating between whining, "I wanna go home"and crying. One row over, one row back. I swear his parents must have had earplugs, I forgot mine, and didn't do a damned thing about it. This went on for hours. And HELLO! Kids' ears can be really sensitive to pressure changes, so medicating them is a good idea anyhow, as even I sometimes have ear pain when flying. And bring your own damned toys and games and snacks. DUH!
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