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You know I really wasn't trying to be smart or mean. I was just asking a question.

For example, I really don't want a big wedding. I'd be very, very happy about getting married at the JOP. However, my mom just doesn't understand this. She says that if I don't have a big wedding that I'll regret it someday. I know myself and I know I don't want the hastle of planning a wedding. It's not important to me. Whenever I discuss this with my little sister (who wants the big wedding) she always says that it's my life and my decision. Then she follows it up with "whatever rubs your buddha" same as "whatever floats your boat". It's just this funny little thing that she always says that makes me laugh when my mom is pissing me off about wedding details. I really didn't mean any harm.

CH - you know me. You know I love you and wouldn't say anything mean to you. I sometimes wonder if I really want kids. Fuck I turned out so fucking wonderful and I act just like my mother sometimes. I'm terrified of doing the same things to my offspring. Makes me wonder whether or not to even bother. I don't want my kids having to deal with the shit I deal with and therapy and all. I'm sorry if I offended you.

Turbo - I was honestly just asking a question. I'm curious and isn't that what this is all about. Asking questions about something your curious about? Culture and I have talked in other threads and she knows I'd never say anything hurtful to her.

Sorry I freaking asked.
Pugs, I really don't think anyone was getting that angry about it, but this is something we have to deal with ALL THE TIME. This thread is generally more for support, IMO, and in those kinds of areas, even the most benign question can feel like an attack. Plus, sometimes emotions don't carry so well over the internet, which I'm sure we're all familiar with. It did sort of sound like you were being a little bit snarky or dismissive with your "rubs your buddha" comment, especially since, as I said, in this kind of thread, people might be a little more sensitive to having "their" space "invaded." Does that make sense? Nobody's mad at you, I don't think. Don't be sorry you asked. Just maybe, next time, use a smiley or something biggrin.gif

And I can't believe your mom thinks you'll regret having a big wedding. WTF does that even mean? I hate it when my mom gets convinced she knows what's best for me, because there is NO talking her out of it! She's the mother and she knows best.
Pugs, I never got offended by your post, I knew you were just asking!

I also understand where the other CBCers are coming from when it comes to the uncertainty.

Raising a child, particularly a girl, is also scary! I mean look at what is happening to so many young girls now. We are sexualizing them, in the U.S. there are all these scary abortion laws surfacing, (but that's a whole different can of worms), I know that as i get further along in my career I will be busy, and I don't think it is fair for a child (or partner, if there is one) to constantly be getting the back burner because of where I am and the responsibilities I have.
Culture -

Why am I spending so much time and money on an education that I can't wait to go out in the world and begin using if I also want to have children? It's very confusing to me. I can't balance two classes, Mr. Pug and housework. I'm not even working. How am I going to take care of myself, Mr. Pug, two pugs, a baby, a new career, my home and so forth and so on? I talk to Mr. Pug about it and he says that everyone does it and that we will find a way together. I really do want children but I get scared about being a good mother. I don't think I had a good mother and I'm paying for it now. I don't want to do that to a child. Being a mother is just very intimidating to me. I wish I knew myself well enough to make a deicsion like you you are. To just say that I know what I want and don't want. I'm always second guessing myself and wondering if I'm doing the right thing. I guess that comes from having a mother who is always second guessing me and telling me I'm making the wrong decision. At least I have Mr. Pug who is always in MY corner telling me to just do what I want. I do hope that I don't have a girl. Although I will be happy but even more scared because baby girls are special. They need even more in this life and I just hope I have it all to give to her. My mother is a woman who should have been childfree but then hey I wouldn't be here right?

(((((good morning)))))
I always find it interesting the different types of childless people there are.

There are some, like myself, who never saw themselves having children and, in fact, don't particularly like children. We don't find them cute, we don't coo over them and we don't particularly want some ourselves.

There are some who like kids but perhaps due to their lifestyles and goals in life - don't want to have them and don't think it would be fair to the child but are happy being aunts.

Finally, there seem to be some who think it is wrong to bring a child into this world but are very much it favour of adoption - love a child who is already here.

I'm sure there are many on this as it is more of a spectrum than categories - it's just interesting. Sometimes I did get offended when I was younger and people say, you will change your mind, or, it will be different when you get married and your husband wants children (not that I was offended by Pugs - it is one thing when it is an honest question - another when people just don't think you know yourself). In a way I almost feel like it is as if you told someone you were liberal and then they said, well when you get older you will understand and become conservative, or, well if your husband is conservative you will be too.

Just some random thoughts flying through my head.
QUOTE(missjoy @ Jul 18 2007, 11:06 AM) *
In a way I almost feel like it is as if you told someone you were liberal and then they said, well when you get older you will understand and become conservative, or, well if your husband is conservative you will be too.

I remember my Macroeconomics teacher asking everyone in the class to raise their hand if they were democrat. Most students did. He then said that he was a republican and that when he was younger he was a democrat. He then preceded to tell all of us that when we get older our views will change. That always rubbed me the wrong way. I didn't pass his class.

Missjoy - is there a catagory of people who want to have kids but don't think they will be good parents? I think that is me.
This thread has been such a great outlet for me and I am glad it is here. I was talking with Hubby about how I just met the first married couple who are CBCers besides us and how great it was to talk with them.

For awhile I really felt pressure to reproduce. People assume that after you are married you will just start to pop out kids and when you don't the attitude is " what is wrong with you". Hubby was cool and said it was my decision even though he would prefer to not reproduce. I got over the pressure and went on the pill. And it was a relief to finally be at peace with the decision to not have a rug rat. This board has helped me with that. So Thank You Everyone!!!
yeah, I just realized how awful my grammar and sentence structure were in my last post.

Pugs - I totally get that - strange for me though because people sometimes tell me they think I would be a good parent (I guess from taking care of my dog?). I don't think so - I think animals are cute, babies - not so much.
I don't think there is one person who says, I am going to be the perfect parent, I know I wouldn't be (I've got some "issues"), I don't who doesn't fear being a parent. I think of things that my parents don't know about. My my my.

Misslady, that is really sweet of you!

Society seems to think that if you don't want children then you are a bad woman. Here is my question, how does bringing an unwanted child into this world make you a good person? Everything is so pronatalist.

QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Jul 18 2007, 11:33 AM) *
I remember my Macroeconomics teacher asking everyone in the class to raise their hand if they were democrat. Most students did. He then said that he was a republican and that when he was younger he was a democrat. He then preceded to tell all of us that when we get older our views will change. That always rubbed me the wrong way. I didn't pass his class.

Missjoy - is there a catagory of people who want to have kids but don't think they will be good parents? I think that is me.

LeBoy's dad used to say the same thing...I think he's eating crow as the Bush regime has gone on.
I don't want to turn this thread into a big all-out war (again)...but pugs, I took your "whatever rubs your buddha" the same way turbo did - it tweaked me the wrong way, and it did come off as dismissive to me also. It's actually the phrase that prompted me to write my long post - in fact, I was angry at first and had to walk away and come back calmer. No, I'm not angry now, but yes, I was at first. "Whatever floats your boat" would come off the same way - dismissive.

We are dependent on how we use our words here, and those words come without body language or intonation or laughter as they do in real conversations, so although these phrases might be a joke in your real life, they doesn't necessarily come across like one here, especially in a topic that has been very sensitive for all of us.

I'm sorry if you felt jumped on by anything anyone wrote, but please understand that just about everyone here has been attacked and dismissed by friends, family members, doctors, and others whenever questions like, "What if you meet a man...etc." come up. We are indeed sensitive to this - justifiably, because standing behind our right to choose has gotten really ugly for most of us. As many busties have tried to point out.

So I hope you will understand turbo's (and my) point of view, since you know us as well...and you must know that turbo especially has never been one to try to "start something," so for her to bring it up, it must have really bothered her, too.
I apologize.
Thank you for that, pugs.

Hey everyone, I just finished reading this, and thought it was interesting and totally related to our discussion! It's short so I'm just going to paste it here, but I'll include some links afterwards that are interesting, too:

The best "decisions" you've never made?

One of the big rebuttals I hear about choosing to be childfree is from people who were at least nominally childfree and who wind up parenting somewhere down the line. It usually goes something like "I totally used to feel the same way, I never wanted kids! But then I had little Btrendhinaymme and I can't picture my life without her. She's the best thing that ever happened to me." The point being that if *I* were to somehow wind up with my own baby Btrendhinaymme, it would be the best thing to ever happen to me as well, so I should change my mind and have a kid instead of trusting my judgment. (By the way, the "B" is silent, as is the second "m," and the name is pronounced "Trend-hi-nah-MAY." But that should have been obvious, right?)

Look, my problem isn't that these parents are happy. It's better they're happy than miserable, at the very least for the children's sakes. My problem is their logic, which suggests that if you find yourself in the opposite situation than what you wanted, it'll work out because your original desires were wrong from the start, and it works that way for everyone in a similar position. And that's just crap.

Sure, maybe it worked out for them, but what if it hadn't? How many people have kids unintentionally or against their desires, only to have things turn out poorly? What the hell kind of risk is that, if not for the person than for the kid?

This is akin to them getting fired from a job they love, taking up jobs they explicitly didn't want, and finding out they can't picture doing anything else. Just because getting the axe made their lives better doesn't mean that I should quit the job I love. It also means it's not wise for them to advocate that people who love their jobs should up and quit and follow their path into Bizzaro World. I imagine that a lot of people who get fired and get stuck working at a job they never wanted are pretty unhappy with the turn of events. Of course, in our society, you can complain out loud about why your job sucks. Not exactly the same with parenthood. That could be playing into this as well.

Maybe these people were never really childfree to begin with. Maybe their spouses convinced them into becoming parents, or tricked them into it. Maybe they felt like the odd ones out when all of their friends were having kids. Or maybe they got hit in the head with rocks, and it scrambled their brains. Either way, despite their earlier feelings, they had kids, and they're happy. Good for them! But they shouldn't expect the rest of us to change our minds based on their experiences. If we follow their advice and they're wrong, they're not the ones who suffer, we are... along with our theoretical kids.

An anecdote is not a guarantee.


ETA: ooh! This is a great quiz for anyone who is still making up their minds about children. It really gets you thinking about lots of different things!
My sister sent me this hilarious Onion article recently. Not sure why she didn't post it here huh.gif

IMO, there are definitely some people-including myself-who KNOW they will never want children. If there were ever the tiniest, most infinitesimal chance that I changed my mind, there is even LESS of a chance that I would breed my own. I would never procreate, with so many children up for adoption. But that will never be an issue at all, ever. I am extremely sure about not wanting to be a parent, but I feel even more strongly about not breeding than I do about not being a parent-if that makes sense.

My now long term boyfriend does not currently want children either, but he has before, and I would not be that surprised if he changed his mind down the road. I always told myself that I would never be with someone who wasn't as sure about it as I am, but here we are now. It would be terrible to break up with him up at any point in the future because he changes his mind, but I'm willing to face that.

I want to get sterilized ASAP. It won't be for awhile though because I can't afford it, and I have no health insurance. My bf maintains that it would be a bad idea, because it's 'closing a door permanently'. I understand his reasoning, but I don't think he can see it from my perspective. When I have the means to have the procedure, I am going to do it. He flat out refuses to get a vasectomy, but he said if a good, reliable form of male bc comes out, than he'll be more than happy to use it. I have an IUD now which is almost as good, but I still have to worry about expulsion, the terrible periods, as well as having it removed in 10 years. I would like to just get it over with and never have to worry about pregnancy again.
What a fantastic article. Shit, that's too funny.
Miss joy and others, I think Mcgeek and I maybe want kids (at some point--him more than me I think. I don't think my parents really care. Thank God my ex inlaws weren't pushing the when are ya gonna get knocked up thing, but I haven't met his. Then again, no ring yet...), but wonder if we would be good parents. But, there's also a huge part of me that also hates children. Mixed feelings I know. happy.gif

I honestly wonder if the couple we are now as Sassy and Mcgeek would be the same now if we were to ever become parents. And the pain of childbirth scares the ever loving shit out of me.

Yeah, what is it about the animal/baby connection?

i'm late to the party again but faerie just to answer your question, i went to a waldorf school up until 8th grade, and the prevalent attitude in that philosophy is very holistic and homeopathic. i, of course, don't remember being as i was 5, but i'd imagine they didn't have a rule, and since it wasn't a public school i guess no one cared. when i was like 10 i also went through a period of being obsessed with my mom's old mothering magazines from the eighties back when they were totally hippie (the mag i mean) and i remember reading a lot about parents choosing not to vaccinate.

ANYWAY, i would like to say that greenbean, i think it might be cool actually to have a "possibly childfree...but i'm not getting a tubal anytime soon" thread tongue.gif it might be a good place for questions like pugs' to be fielded, and for the rest of us to muse on our feelings on the subject. whoever said that seeing the opinions expressed in this post makes her know she's NOT certain, i'm right there with you. in the past i've said i never would have kids, but as i get older i think differently about it. i like to say that if it happens, it happens, and if it doesn't, no loss, but part of me feels like i might feel a loss. but like humanist, i lean towards adoption--not because i don't want to experience the physical act of having a baby (in fact that would be my argument against adopting) but because of my concern for overpopulation and the millions of kids who need to be adopted. even if you desperately want to have babies and further your own genes i think no one should ever do more than replace themselves. if you want more kids...adopt.

it's a shame i guess that i think i might want kids because my parents and family have never given me any pressure about having kids. and now both my cousins--who are younger than me--are settling (one is married, one just got engaged) and i don't even have a boyfriend..but nobody's giving me grief about it. it's likely that i might end up with kids though, so i wish i could offer my parents' laid back attitude to the childfree busties with hyper parents sad.gif

anyway, i vote for a spinoff thread!
Last night I met prophecy_grrl at a Harry Potter release party in a very family-friendly suburb. Prophecy got there first and went to dinner at a deli; when I got close, I called her and she said not to go to the deli because it was packed with people, lots of kids and recommended a Thai place down the street.

So, we go to the Thai place and it was very full, but not packed. We got seated at a table in the back, where it was a raised platform area, with lots of other tables. The table across the aisle had two couples and 3 kids, ranging in age from 2-9 or so. I'm not sure which kids belonged to which couple, but they were letting the kids run all over the restaurant, up and down the stairs to the raised area; the stairs were right across from the kitchen area so it's where the waitstaff was going by as well as up and down the stairs. They'd let the kids get completely out of sight before going to get them, even the 2-year-old. The waitstaff was literally weaving around these kids and were visibly annoyed, but the parents did nothing.

I wanted to turn around and tell them it wasn't going to be so cute when one of them got hot soup spilled on them, but I restrained myself. Should I have? This was beyond just kinds behaving badly in a restaurant. The kids, staff and other patrons were in danger if something got spilled and splattered.
QUOTE(humanist77 @ Jul 19 2007, 05:57 PM) *
I want to get sterilized ASAP. It won't be for awhile though because I can't afford it, and I have no health insurance.

Just a note, I am low income and without insurance and I didn't pay a thing for the procedure. Check into what's available in your area. If I hadn't gotten in done the way I did I still had Planned Parenthood as an option. Here at least, they have sliding scale options for it. I think it would have been $400 and some. But I chose free 'cause (duh) free is better smile.gif
I think in a restaurent and so forth it is up to management to say something, gently, to the parents.

I've said to chidlren before that they should be careful because they could get hurt. Motherfucking people who don't parent their children.

I've seen some people yell at children about how they are acting, and they weren't their parents. And the thing is, the parents never said anything after the child recoiled in horror.
QUOTE(humanist77 @ Jul 19 2007, 04:57 PM) *
My sister sent me this hilarious Onion article recently. Not sure why she didn't post it here huh.gif

Okay, I'll post more hilarious Onion articles.

My sis just had a kid, oh like YESTERDAY!! Totally stoked because now I am Aunt missladyj Anyway at the hospital in the waiting room while I am in the bathroom my mother corners hubby and tells him that now that my sis has a kid, I'm gonna want one but I have to finish my master's degree first. Hubby doesn't respond.

It just cracks me up because she only talks to him about me having a kid. My Pops knows I don't want a kid and says "As Long As You Are Happy". Poor hubby has to deal with my mother. He's a good guy. No wait he's a GREAT guy.
lol, ladyj. yeah, i kind of get that too from a few people, but luckily most of my relatives have left me alone so far.

one person that always questions me is my cousin's mother-in-law, which is really weird because i don't think i've ever said more than 200 words to her. but every time there's a family gathering she'll come up to me really randomly and ask if i have a boyfriend (nope), and since i don't, how i expect to get married soon. and of course with that comes the whole "when do you want to start a family?" issue. she's kind of, uh, not all there, so i usually just grin and bear it and give my usual one sentence responses. but it's really weird that she doesn't even know me all that well and always targets me at gatherings!
My grandmother has whole heartedly advised me to not have children.
I was talking to someone about christmas today. How come if you are married but you don't have children people don't think you are a "family". We are expected to go have christmas with siblings who have children and are a "family".

Last year (our first year married) we tried to say we were having christmas as a family and anyone who wanted to come was welcome. It kind of backfired because my bro and sis in law (who have two young children) live close to us and were having christmas so all the in-laws came to spend it with them and some stayed at our place and then we would have seemed odd if we didn't go to where all the family was...

I think a nice, quiet christmas with JoyBoy and the dog would be perfection.
While snuggling with Hubby and watching tv sometimes especially in the winter our cat Miss Boo will come and lay on us both. At that point I always say " Out family" . The cat and for the summer the Mr. Chester the rat are our family.
All that happens at any major holiday is trouble. See any Thanksgiving episode of Roseanne for that.
I'm moving in with my boyfriend. I spend most days/nights there anyway, but now my dog will live there too. My boyfriend's sister comes over a lot with her dogs and I was thinking about how much mine would love to play with them, and then I pictured me and my boyfriend and all the dogs, including our roommate's chihuahua, sitting cuddled up on the couch watching TV and I got all these fuzzy family feelings. Nevermind the fact that we have no TV and I have have 2 jobs and school and so does my boyfriend, so there is no time for cuddling on the couch. I just think it's funny that I can feel so maternal with animals but kids never cross my mind. Just now I tried to picture the scene with children, and I felt vaguely repulsed.
Bravo, blanch! laugh.gif
God, I love the Onion.
fucking hilarious!
OMG, I am so cross-posting that to the bondage thread. Thanks for the laugh!

Ok, so, small, nay -- tiny little trendy bistro with just enough space to walk between the tables and the stools for the bar? Not the place for toddlers. No, look, I'm sorry, even if s/he IS well-behaved, the wait staff can't always see below the plates they are carrying and it is a health risk for everyone. Go to Friendly's or something, and please leave my romantic dinner and talk of ADULT THEMES alone. Fuckers.

You know? There's just some places it isn't appropriate to take kids. I've seen people bringing kids, like 8-10 year old KIDS to bars at like 10:30. WTF? Ever heard of "bedtime"? I hate having to watch where my cigarette smoke is billowing because some fucking breeder toted their kid along to the BAR. Yeesh. You kid shouldn't have to be exposed to secondhand smoke because you're too fucking selfish to give up your bar hopping lifestyle. Assholes.
Last night turbomann and I went out for our 5 year wedding anniversary dinner. We always go to the same place, a fancy rustic bistro, focusing on organic is fucking amazing, and the staff are superb and really know how to care for their guests, which honestly, I enjoy almost as much as the food. It was really busy, and we got the last table, and it was on the wall, where there's a bench on one side running the whole length of the restaurant, chairs on the other sides of the tables.

At the table next to us....a couple and their 3 year old. Seriously, now WTF is a toddler doing there? And he was using the bench as his personal jungle gym, and crawls over to me to ask if I have his turtle. Uh, NO. Get away from me with your sticky fingers. It really horrified me that people will take their toddler to a $35/plate restaurant. Thankfully, as soon as we had our first course, they left. If there had been any other table, I would have requested it.

Turbomann is far more tolerant than I, but this is our one fancy fancy meal every year...I don't need a kid crawling under my table in the middle of it.

That is all.

Keep bringing on those Onion articles - Hi-larious!
Turbo, that might have just made me cry! I'm guessing the parents were just ignoring him? OR laughing as if it was adorable, and everyone else should agree? The second that I saw we'd be seated next to the kid, I would've waited for a new table. Especially for such a guiet, romantic, special, once-a-year occasion...the LAST thing I want to be around on my anniversary with the boy is obnoxious children...It's funny that the last table happened to be next to these people-maybe the staff was avoiding seating people there, because of the kid. Now that is some service!

btw, what restaurant is that? Sounds good : )
Some people have such shit for brains.
humanist beat me to the punch . What was the name of the place?
Turbo, that's awful. People with kids can be so rude! At least they didn't stay long, hope you enjoyed the rest of your evening.
I can tolerate kids if their parents have them under control.
whoa, it's culturehandy's not so alter ego!
Uhhhh, not to be rude and off topic, but WTF is that?
Whoa, CH, I'd report that one to LoungeLady...YUCK.

Humanist - it was Campagnola, its in Evanston on Chicago avenue...seriously yummy. Yeah, we really should have waited for another table, but its a lingering/leisurely kind of place, and it was already late, so we just took the table. Thank cod, the family left right after we had our first course. smile.gif
Ooooh yeah, turbo- that's next to a cute little store that I thought about getting my ornament for when we did the Chicago bustie ornament exchange. Sounds tasty and child-inappropriate!
Oh I love Campagnola! Never had a bad experience there-hopefully you guys never do again!
turbo, that sucks that you had to deal with that...and I hate that we are considered "child-haters" because we long for the days when it WASN'T appropriate for children to be EVERYWHERE. Thank goodness you didn't have to put up with it all evening!

This afternoon, one of my neighbours - a former foster child of my BFF - came home with her brand spankin' new baby. Very cute. When BFF phoned from her cell that they were downstairs, I flew down in my bare feet to meet the new one. A girl - one for the team!

Anyway, when I was holding her, another neighbour came out, a young woman of 24, and went all starry-eyed. "Oh, I want a baby!" she said. "I don't," I said, still cuddling the infant. "Yes you do," said the woman, in the kind of schmoozy voice that implied it was only normal for me to want this. "Uh, actually, I don't," I said. "I'm getting my tubes tied." And the woman was stunned. "Oh," she said, and went silent, and got that weird look on her face like I was the freak.

I wouldn't normally have revealed my decision about the tubal, but honestly, I did not want to have the discussion. (Particularly with this woman, whom I have other issues with.) It's funny that I felt I had to disclose that, but I just wanted to end the conversation right there, you know? It was like, how dare you think to know better than I do what I want? And worse...imagine the nerve of being able to enjoy holding a new baby without actually wanting one for myself. Anyway. It kind of annoyed me, but at least it didn't go any further than that. Heavens, even the baby's mother knows how I feel about having kids....
So I'm hangin at my folks place and they have a crib and shit set up for my niece and I happen to notice a onesie in all pink with some hot pink lettering that says" Does my diaper make my butt look big?"

I lost it. And declared that my niece would not be wearing that sexist piece of shit and who in their right mind would buy something so fuckin offensive for a newborn? For crying out loud.

Does anyone know of where I can find onesies with feminist sayings on them or even better toys that don't perpetuate gender stereotypes? thanks busties!!

Hubby and I have already decided on getting our niece a drum set.
Silly Missladyj! Just go to our very own Bust website:

Peeking my head back in after long hiatus ...

now THIS thread looks like Girls Gon Wild to ME !

enjoying all the rants ...

not sure why I'm putting this here in this particular thread but -- speaking of movies? -- I just picked up the "My Super Ex-Girlfriend" DVD from the library and watched it. Um, now HERE'S an original flick! The plot is totally unpredictable and HI-larious!!! (Who likes being made to laugh out loud?!) We've got Uma, Luke, EDDIE IZZARD!, and Anna Faris (ala the "scary movie" girl) - and THE BESTEST, BESTEST, BESTEST sex scene of all time!!! (And it's *not* the scene they showed on the movie previews trailer where she breaks the bed either). Man, G-GIRL makes Superman look BOOORING when it comes to FLYING!!!!! Check it out and your date will like it too wink.gif
I'm pretty sick and tired of parents thinking that every place they take their out of control children to is a playground.

You know what is going to happen, a child is going to get hurt and whose fault will it be? Of course it won't be that charming little imp and thier moron parents who are making children gone wild part 15, it will be the restaurents (or where ever) fault for it.

thanks Phobia!!!
In honor of the Duggars popping yet another one out (#17), I present this snark fest regarding #16.

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