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I don't think it's that the dog and kid aren't compatable, just that the owner doesn't feel the need to cherish her dog now she's replaced him with a kid. poor dog. mind you, i don't think she's a complete bitch - dogs can be hard work, especially as they get older. But tough shit - she chose it.

people quite often ask me if my dog bites - i think people have this entirely false image of greyhounds as slavering beasts with a penchant for child-flesh. My dog is plain terrified of kids en masse (although individual kids he can cope with). Some dogs like kids, some don't - like some people don't like kids. We used to have a lab with a near-pathological hatred for toddlers. Yet my seven year old self could do anything to her. I think it depends, a lot of the time, on who/what the dog is raised with.

*goes back to lurking*
Greyhounds, to me, always seemed very skittish, I never pictured a greyhound as a scary beast at all!
Aw, we used to have a greyhound sad.gif Unfortunately, he was not at ALL cat-safe, even though the adoption people assured us he was. He had many, many other issues that a couple of grad students in a tiny apartment couldn't handle (I checked -- behaviorists were going at like $90 an HOUR), so the adoption people found him a new home without kids or kitties. There was very much crying. Le sigh. I do think the adoption group should have been more aware of who was cat-safe and who wasn't. It felt like they were just trying to get dogs adopted and out the door, without really trying to make sure we were making the right choice for us. Sniffle.

Speaking of unauthorized babysitters for people's kids, a friend of mine used to work at one of those stores where they have toys to keep kids occupied (I think it was like a store for teachers or something) and you just would not believe the number of "parents" who treated them like free babysitters while they went and shopped. I can't even imagine the mindset these people must have!! Gawd. And you KNOW the instant something happened to one of those abandoned kids, it would be the store that was at fault, you know?

ETA: I should add that the greyhoud did eventually try to eat one of the cats, just FYI. I don't want you to think we gave him back when he got difficult. It just wasn't a good situaton all around and I couldn't think of a way to fix it without getting rid of someone, and at least he had the adoption people to help him out.
I live not far from one of the big dog tracks up here, and a lot of the betting shops carry adverts with Vinnie Jones (a local) holding two snarling greyhounds. Most people haven't seen a hound ouside of those ads of the track, so they think they're pretty fearsome. Indigo is terribly skittish, but he pants a lot, so walks around with his big gob hanging open at exactly kid-in-pram height, and the parents freak when he shys at the grabby yelling thing on wheels coming towards him. *sigh*

phobia, I have two bunnies, and he still isn't safe with them, although he was declared "cat safe with work" at the adoption center and sometimes I suspect they never did test him more than once, and because he's so nervous... but I'd say giving him up because he tried to eat a cat is was extremely good reason!
Thanks, mornington! I get kind of defensive, since we loved him so, and just couldn't make things work. It was heartbreaking for everyone sad.gif I did get such a kick out of the "big gob" comment -- I know EXACTLY what you mean!

Oy, my good friend is preggers again, not unexpectedly, but a little sooner than she wanted. I'm just not sure what to say. Hang in there, I'm sure you'll be happy soon? Ugh. What a terrible feeling. She's trying really hard to be happy about it, but you can tell she's pretty freaked. Her other kid is just lovely, but still in diapers (!), and I just don't know how she's going to handle it! Better her than me.
Interesting article from today's newspaper
I'm just happy to see something like this in a kinda crappy, although popular Chicago newspaper.

Also, tonight on the news, they were doing a story on a group of mothers in Illinois..I don't remember what the group is called, but they raise their children as "naturally" and "holistically" as possible, i.e., organic food, no video games, generally no vaccinations or OTC medications..and one mother was talking about how the whole family SLEEPS TOGETHER in two queen sized beds pushed together. She says this encourages bonding and feelings of security. My jaw dropped. How is that setting your children up for any sort of healthy adulthood or even childhood? When they can't sleep anywhere but with mommy and daddy? Do the parents even have a sex life? What about that kind of bonding? What a GREAT way to destroy a marriage...then she went on to say that she does not vaccinate her children because we came into this world having perfectly good immune systems that should take care of whatever comes in the body...yeah, until her kids all die of rabies...

As much as I appreciate many parts of a 'natural' lifestyle, and would likely do the same to some extent if I had my own children (god forbid), it can cross over into plain idiocy..
I know that if I did end up having kids I'd probably be a total hippie mom but I don't think I'd go for the family bed for very long. When I was a kid I didn't feel traumatized by having my own space to sleep in!
When I was little I never remember sleeping in my parent's bed. Even if I had a nightmare or couldn't sleep my mom would walk me back to my bed and lie with me till I fell asleep and then go back to her own.

It seems odd to me that you would ever start letting your kids sleep in your bed.
LOL! My friend I was just commenting on in the Commited thread just got married and bought a house. They have a 3 year old daughter. They have always lived at my friend's mom's house and they all shared a room. The daughter had her own bed but always slept with her parents. When they moved into their new house they did the little girl's room all in Disney Princess stuff, her favorite. Her room is the nicest room in the house. They spent weeks preparing it. When she got there she announced that she hated the room and the house and wanted to go back to grandmom's house. Understandable I guess right? Well, daddy made it very clear that the sleeping arangment was going to change. Mommy and daddy in their bed and daughter in her room in her bed. I'm frustrated to say that mommy and daughter are currently sleeping in mommy and daddy's room while daddy is sleeping in the daughter's princess room. CAN YOU BELIEVE IT?!?!?! They've been in the house for almost three months and it's still going on. That's outragious. The scary thing is that I don't think it's the daughter who's asking for this. I think it's the mom. She "prefers" to sleep with her daughter then sleeping with her husband. Mr. Pug wouldn't have any of this let me tell you what. When I grew up, if I had a bad dream, I would crawl into bed with my parents but it was for 15-20 mintues then, "back to bed with you" or they would sleep with me for a bit then go back to their room. It was NEVER an all night thing. That shit is crazy. Sorry for the rant...again. smile.gif
I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with co-sleeping, but as the kid gets older, like around three when they hit that developmental level where they're conscious of their own body and stuff, that's when you should probably start getting out of the co-sleeping thing (my non-mom opinion)...but at any age, to have your kid manipulate you like that and interfere in your marriage to that point is ridiculous and really unhealthy for all of those involved.

I'm so happy to be working in a childfree by choice workplace. I'm working at my cousin's dental practice; my cousin and her husband (who's the office manager) don't have kids, neither of the hygienists have kids (they're both young, one of them just got married and one's been married for a few years.) There are 2 assistants; one of them is older, widowed and has a college-age son and the other is young, married, no kids. The hygienists and I were eating lunch yesterday bitching about being invited to birthday parties for the kids of family and friends, and how we really don't want to go, spend a bunch of money, sit around bored while everyone else talks about their little brats. One of them gets invited to her sister-in-law's sister's kids's obviously a gift-grubbing attempt- she doesn't hang around with them, she hardly knows their kids. She had to tell her SIL's to tell their sisters to stop inviting her.

Anyway, it's nice to not have to deal with co-workers who not only give you crap for not being married yet, but also for not planning on having kids. "Oh you'll change your mind" Um no I won't, as if it's any of your business anyway!
Pugs, I can't believe that! *shakes head*

I hate parties for children, yet another reason why it ROCKS to be an only child. It is a money grab, why should I have to go to my mother's, brother's, aunt's, father, dog's, cousins, third child twice-removed, birthday party? Buy your kids toys with your own money!

That is all.
"The percentage of Americans who consider children “very important” to a successful marriage has dropped sharply since 1990, and more now cite the sharing of household chores as pivotal, according to a new survey."

Amen. Thank cod I was born in a generation that has figured this out.

anarh, I'm glad to hear more people are realizing children are not what makes a marriage last, too.

Whenever people ask me about how I am so happily married or what not, I always say 'the key is to never have children.'

Whole families sleeping together? blink.gif I think it's really unhealthy when parents let thier kids sleep with them, especially as they get older, but also when they are small children. My parents would let me climb into to bed if I had a horrible nightmare, but that was a seriously rare thing. Someone, a single mom from work or something, was telling me that all five of her kids like to sleep with her. I can't imagine.
Anarch beat me to it! Darnit!

Pugs, is it just me or does it seem like your friend is trying to avoid sleeping with her husband? In any event, I find co-sleeping troubling on a weird hindbrain level. Can't say exactly why, it just squicks me out!

Children's parties have gotten so far out of control. I luckily don't get invited to many, as my co-workers would never ever do that (not that kind of workplace), and my relatives live far, far away. My good friend (the one below, who's pg again), obviously invites me, but makes it clear that if it's not my idea of a good time, I can get quality time with the wee un some other time. I really do like the little one, I adore being an auntie, but I also really appreciate the time that my friend and I make to hang out and do grown-up things. I really admire her and her hubby for being committed to setting aside couple time as well as alone time.
I don't think I was allowed to sleep in my parents' bed... ever. I think my cot, when I was a baby, was in the same room, and I'd be allowed in the bed of a weekend morning, but actually sleeping... never. I've shared a bed or room with my mum on a few (rare) occasions since I've been in my teens, when we were staying over at friends' houses, and there weren't enough single beds - but then I've shared a bed with my girlfriends, so I don't see much of a difference (except my mum snores)

pugs, that's madness.

i think it was said, when the baby is really young, it actually helps them to nap with a parent (or both), but that you shouldn't carry on past the age where they start rolling in thier sleep, as they can fall out of the bed. There is a reason they make cots and cribs.

humanist, that lifestyle is a bit nuts to me... yes, the immune system deals with most diseases, but why risk your child's life? If most parents did that, the child mortality rate would rise so damn quickly... *shakes head*
Things I strongly dislike:
baby showers
wedding showers
kids' parties

I'd avoid all of them all the time, if possible...I think I'm actually mildly excited that turbomann's dad and brother will be visiting the weekend I have a wedding/baby shower (2 in 1 - GAG), and I am *totally* using them as an excuse not to go. Is it the one person centered-ness of these events that really peeves me, or the lame "traditions." I dunno, but either way, these sorts of things don't make me want to spend my precious weekend time on them.

*tiptoes around the vaccination/co-sleeping debate*
Jeez, I don't remember ever even considering sleeping with my parents, even after a nightmare.
The anti-vaccination is a little more understandable though, since they are finding links between vaccinations and Autism..something parents should consider.

I just turned 28 and my mom is getting more annoying about me being unmarried and childless. Anytime I mention a new guy she's always, "Does he seem like he'd be a good provider?" GAH! What the hell mom? She raised me to take care of myself, so I don't know where thats coming from.
gb, the guy who did that study admitted that it wasn't done well enough to be taken seriously - he was looking for a link, because he was paid to. So he found one. I'm just pretty skeptical about it. Also, when that came out, people stopped vaccinating thier kids (this was in the uk, the vaccine was MMR - measles, mumps, rubella) and ten years on, there are massive outbreaks of mumps, which is a life-threatening disease to a young child.
phobia - there are many issues that that I could go into about that relationship. Many, many, many and yes I couldn't agree more that she is avoiding sleeping with her husband. For a "newlywed" couple they shock me at how unloving and uncaring they can be. She, in my opinion, is so totally wrapped up in being a mother that she has forgotten that she was first a woman, then a lover, then a wife, THEN a mother. Her husband was there first and the day that child came into this world he ceised to exist. Now he is just an income for her daughter. It's madness.

I love Mr. Pug and I worry that we will loose a lot of what we have when we have children. I enjoy our weekends together, waking up and making love, sleeping in late, showering together, making breakfast together, laying on the couch together and snuggling while we watch a movie. I can't imagine giving all that up and focusing our attention on a baby and not each other.

ginger - I also heard that the key to a successful marriage is seperate bathrooms. LOL
QUOTE(LoveMyPugs @ Jul 12 2007, 09:25 AM) *
I love Mr. Pug and I worry that we will loose a lot of what we have when we have children. I enjoy our weekends together, waking up and making love, sleeping in late, showering together, making breakfast together, laying on the couch together and snuggling while we watch a movie. I can't imagine giving all that up and focusing our attention on a baby and not each other.

I know I haven't posted in this thread in a while, but I've been reading through it because this topic always interests me because I have never felt the strong desire to have children. I don't know what has caused it, there could be many factors, but I kind of chalk it up to my parents divorcing at an early age and feeling to blame (as some small children do) and also never dating a man that I think could be a good father (which is a big deal because my father left my mother and I for another already-made family and another woman). So I have never wanted children. I don't know how to act around them or talk to them and I just don't feel a connection to them.

Oops, off topic, I mean to respond to what Pugs said!

The other day I was watching some show on television where a man was talking about his kids and he said something like, "I love coming home to my daughters and my wife and knowing that they are there waiting for me and depend on me to provide for them." I don't know if it was exactly that but something along those lines. That made me think of the exact same thing Pugs mentioned. I looked over to the Mister and said, "It's not that I don't want kids because I hate them (although that is partly it), it's that I don't want a child to come into our lives and change the way we live." I am so content with it being just him and I that I don't ever want to think about some child coming in an us paying more attention to it than each other, like most parents do. I really do think that is most of the reason why parents end up getting divorced - they have children and they devote all of their time to those children and forget about who they are and who they were to each other before they had children. It's very sad, really. Apparently children should bring two people together but usually just end up driving couples apart.

I don't want to have a kid to mess up my "me" time (my biggest thing is how long it takes me to look presentable to the world, which I *like* doing; it takes me an hour to get ready every day for work and I just find with a kid I couldn't do that any longer), or to mess up my "me + the mister" time, where we go out for walks, or dinner, or movies, or to have sex wherever we want in our place. I'm not saying I won't ever have a child, but it won't be for a very, very long time if I have one at all, and I will definitely being adopting and after thinking long and hard about it. The best "quote" I have heard recently and how I now justify my will to adopt is actually from the movie Martian Child, when John Cusack's character says, "I don't want to bring a child into this world, but I can't argue against loving one that is already here." And that's exactly how I feel about that.

I didn't mean to ramble on, but Pugs, your post really got me thinking and I just had to say something. smile.gif
I noticed that my parents are the ones who say why even bother being in a relationship, if you are happy then why bother.

That's my thing, if I do end up getting involved with someone again, I enjoy my solitude. I love the fact that I can sleep whenver I want, go out whenever etc.

Turbo, ewwwww two in one, that is suicide.

One of my friends just had a baby, and now she's talking about how excited she'll be when I have mine (!) Ummm, that's jumping to conclusions. What works for you DOES NOT mean that it will work for me.
it's really true that one of the secrets to a happy marriage is two bathrooms. Right now we just have one, but it is in our house that we own so we will work it out.

I recently had to throw a baby shower for my sister and did it but I REFUSED to make people play insipid baby shower games. I also made sure that there were two kinds of mimosas, alcoholic and non. Just cuz the pregnant woman can't drink doesn't mean the rest of us have to be deprived.

Two women actually thanked me for not having baby shower games.

I am excited about being an auntie while reveling in the fact that the birth control pill totally rules.

not having a kid means that having sex while making blueberry pancakes is possible.
Woo, missladyj, where'd THAT batter end up?!?! laugh.gif

Yes, absolutely on the 2-bathrooms thing. I think you can make it work if you have one bathroom, if you have a double vanity (two sinks). We have 1 1/2 baths and I claimed the half-bath...LeBoy doesn't quite get the concept and generally uses mine for his waste deposits. Grrr. I make him clean the toilet in there, though.

There's an annoying little kid in the waiting room right now who's screaming whether his mom puts him down or picks him up and she's not doing anything to stop him. I can't even talk on the phone. Mom's more concerned with getting her teeth whitening supplies.
I'm in school, in the math lab, working on homework. The financial aid, registration and business offices are down the hall. Every five minutes a mother comes walking down the hall to register for classes with a kid running ahead of her screaming. It's so distracting. Plus, the college has a summer camp for kids in summer. Trying to eat lunch in peace in the cafeteria is hell cause there are like 40 kids playing board games, talking over top of one another on the cell phones and the counselors are just sitting there listening to iPods. I hate this school in the summer.
*runs into thread*

...I just spent $50 on baby clothes for my nephew. He's 2 1/2 months old and I've never seen him because I live across the country and I had to buy him this fisherman's hat/shirt/sunglasses thing because it was cute and now I have guilt and I'm talking in run-ons. I can't believe I did that because kids grow fast and it's not practical, but I never got him *or* my bro a welcome to earth gift, and all my brother ever wanted for their joint both-sexes-welcome baby shower was a cool hat for the kid. So now I got him one (4 months later...)

Bad faerie, bad.

On the other hand, it's not likely I'll ever buy the kid an overpriced outfit again because this was a one-time deal to make up for the fact that I've been a neglectful first-time aunt. *sigh* Freaking baby clothes...
hoping to get some help here. it seems like all the people I know are currently pregnant or new parents. I've always said i was 99% certain that I wouldn't physically bear a child (always saw adoption as the route I would take should I desire a child)
It's sorta hitting me hard right now with all these babies as it's all happened within the last week. even websites I go to are all of a sudden full of babies. I don't feel like I'm changing my mind, but I am feeling this indirect pressure and confusion over what I feel.
Can anyone recommend some childfree books? I feel that with whatever decisions I make in my life I need to be educated and would also like some reassurance that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Thanks!
blue jupiter, try your local library. I was amazed at how many books on being childfree there was at mine! Even ones from the 70's and 80's~
Bluejupiter -- man, get some new websites biggrin.gif scroll down to a bunch of articles, poems, testimonials, and other good stuff!

Here's a link to amazon -- check out not only the book referenced, but the ones under "people who bought this also bought..." Just what the name implies Childless by choice

A lot of these places have lots of links, articles, and book recommendations. Have fun!

Nothing has made me realize that I don't want kids more than being a full time nanny the past two summers. Two girls one year two boys the next. I really don't like having to take care of other people much.

Perhaps I will adopt one day, however.
Ahahahah....just got this text from the boy:

Bumper sticker: I <3 Babies What the fuck is wrong with people? 'Babies' are not the Red Sox!
Ugg! I almost lost my cool this weekend. I went to a beach party where I only knew a couple people. One of the people I did not know was a young father and his freaking-looking one year old girl (she had no eyebrows and pointy little teeth--eek!) Anyway, a couple of us wanted to go swimming so I left my tote on my towel and trusted it would be safe with the group that was staying to sunbathe. Well, when I got back I was shocked to see that the freak-baby had DUMPED all the contents out of my bag, and was ramming my water bottle (mouthpiece first) into the sand...with the dad totally watching her do it! WTF!!?? I went to gather my stuff and the dad is all, "Is this your bag?" I'm like "yeah" and he's all "She really likes your stuff!" all smiley like its sooo cute! I just deadpan, "She didn't get my cell phone did she? Cuz I don't really want sand in there" then his smile fades and he's like, "Oh, I dunno, sorry" and then scoops the kid up and makes her let go of my water bottle. Of course she starts to cry and he says, "Thats not yours, come on lets play over here" and shuffles her off, making me feel like a villian. Seriously, ugg.
QUOTE(greenbean @ Jul 16 2007, 10:06 PM) *
...a young father and his freaking-looking one year old girl (she had no eyebrows and pointy little teeth--eek!)

Ahh! Vampire baby:


Well, gawd, greenbean, he didn't want her digging through her diaper bag! That would make a mess and be an inconvenience. rolleyes.gif
*peeks in gingerly*

just wanted to say re: vaccination that it's not as necessary as it's made out to be, and can be severely dangerous if anything goes wrong. there's the possibility of severe brain damage since babies are more vulnerable to problems with vaccinations than adults are. i wasn't vaccinated as a baby (though i had tb shots when i was older and did the three-shot hepatitis vaccine in college) and i never had any problems; many of the kids i grew up with weren't either. my mom is a teacher at a school for special needs kids and a disturbingly high percentage of her students were vaccination complication babies. so, i get where those parents are coming from, and if i have a kid, i will have to think long and hard before deciding to vaccinate.

just my two cents.

*tiptoes out*
hey mouse!

just out of how did they let you attend school if you weren't vaccinated? i remember if you were at school (in texas) for more than a few days after the school year started, everyone would throw a serious shit fit and threaten that you couldn't come to school unless you were vaccinated asap. i always wondered how that worked out for parents who didn't want their kids vaccinated (although, honestly, no one questions vaccinations back home. they just do it).

i read an article in the ny times not too long ago about vaccinations and the rise in autism. that was scary.
Speaking of the autism vaccine link, the British researchers who came to this conclusion are under investigation for unethical practices.

GB, if the father was offended too fucking bad for him. Perhaps if he was being a father and telling his vampire freak baby no, then he wouldn't have run into such a problem. Fucking people!
Yep, I heard that, too, CH, that the study was funded by a law firm or someone who wanted to sue the vaccine makers. It is a very interesting topic. One more reason I don't want kids- I don't want to make decisions about things like vaccinations or circumcision.

I was at a good friends birthday bash this weekend and actually meet IRL another childfree couple. The husband was talking with me about his vasectomy and how it was no big deal . It was really nice to meet another married couple who has decided to remain childfree. I want this dude to talk to hubby about the whole vasectomy cuz I think coming from a man maybe he would consider it more.
I was "involved" (and I use the term loosely) with a man who had an 11 year old daughter, was 37 and did not want any more children. He had a vasectomy. It was pretty cool. I'm contemplating getting fixed. My mother is secretly devastated that I don't want children. She keeps going on and on about how she was the same way when she was my age. Here's the thing, she was married when she was my age. I'm not even close to be married.

Why why why is so hard for my mother to accept that I don't want babies????
Culture - (just a question, not trying to argue) but how do you know that if you meet a great guy you won't want to get married and have a child with him. Don't you think there is even a possibility that your feelings might change? To get fixed leaves you no options. I guess you know yourself and how you feel so you know what you want and don't want in your future. Whatever rubs your buddha I guess.
I abhor children. I am very up front with men about this. I don't even want to get married.
That's something CBC'ers get asked frequently and my personal thought is that we make decisions every day that may permanently affect the rest of our lives, and this one is no different. If I were to get some form of permanent contraception (which I plan to in the next few years) and wake up one day later and decide I want kids, then I'll adopt. I feel that's the right thing to do whether I wanted kids or not. The idea that you're left optionless is a myth.

The other answer to that question is that someone who wants kids is not the right person for me. I don't think anyone should be in a relationship where they feel differently from their partner on this, if they're not going to *genuinely* change their mind. Someone who wants children shouldn't be forced to deny themselves that and someone who doesn't want kids shouldn't have them for their spouses' sake. It's not fair to them, the spouse and especially not the child.
I finally got my tubes tied in December after trying since I was 19. It was one of those things that I just *know* about me. It has nothing to do with who I'm with or who I might be with or how happy we are. My feeling toward bearing children is just a part of me. I've been on the receiving end of the "what if you change your mind?" question many, many times. Though usually it's from people who *are* trying to argue, not just ask.
I'm 38 - I've been telling my family since I was a kid myself that childrearing probably wasn't for me, and I've been sure since I was 26. I've never had an inkling of changing my mind; I constantly grow stronger in my certainty, actually, and I find myself happier every day with the decision I've made.

Yes, it is possible to know yourself that well, just as it is possible to make other big life decisions for yourself with confidence, and without regret. Many people choose to become parents without regret, after all, so it shouldn't be too difficult to understand and empathize with those who have no regrets in embracing the opposite. (And although it is taboo for them to say so publicly, many people DO in fact regret their decision to become parents - a decision from which there is also no turning back.) Childrearing is, after all, only one possibility out of all the many potentially fulfilling pathways available to one in life. Personally, I chose "the road less travelled," and find it very satisfying, AND I believe I've contributed a LOT more to the world than I could have by giving my energies to a child. But then, I feel very confident in myself and my ability to make the right choices for myself.

If I meet a man and he wants kids, then he's obviously not the right man for me, plain and simple. I would be miserable as a mother - if I ever met a man who wanted kids so badly that it was a relationship deal-breaker, and I made that choice because of that, then I would be doing it for him, not for me, and I would wholly resent him for putting me in that position. It's a poor foundation on which to build a relationship, and a poor climate in which to raise a child.

Women are fully capable of making decisions for ourselves without the input of a man, especially when it comes to our fertility. It's a problem sometimes to deal with people who think they know you better than yourself - especially doctors - who try to disuade you from tubal ligation with the whole "What if you meet a man who wants kids?" spiel. I had to advocate for a lot of women through the women's centre who were smacked down and denied the referral for a tubal by their docs (usually the right-wing docs) when they made the request. As a feminist, I find that kind of "well-meaning" argument kind of offensive, actually. (Though I'm sure you didn't mean any offense, pugs.)

Anyway, I put it off for a long time, but when my gyno recently told me I could no longer take the BC pill because of a medical issue (while at the same time putting me on a medication that has the side effect of increasing my fertility), I told him to go ahead and book the tubal. I do not want the option of having children, ever. Yes, I do know myself that well. And I do not ever want to find myself faced with the decision to have an abortion, especially when the means to prevent it exists.
WORD, doodle, and very well put, my dear.

Pugs, I know you didn't mean anything offensive in your post, and were just asking a question, but to be so flippant at the end, "whatever rubs your buddha," really comes off like you don't respect our thoughts in here, or maybe just don't fully understand or share our perspective. Is it so hard to think that a person can know so thoroughly what they want and don't want for themselves? And why would a man necessarily change your thoughts on kids - its a personal choice - just the same as all the wonderful reasons others decide they want to share their lives with a child.

I'm married, I don't want kids. Turbomann may theoretically-maybe-someday-possibly want to have kids. Am I going to have a kid? Hell no. Not if I don't want one myself....and right now, that's a big NO. And its my choice. It has just about nothing to do with him.

Parenting is WAY too much responsibility to go into it if you don't really want it. And what more feminist choice is there, than to choose for yourself whether you want kids or not. Its wonderful to have the choice.
There are still options once you're "fixed". I got my tubal ligation May of 2006. I have never regretted for one moment the decision to do it. And I'm so grateful to all the CBC'ers who cheered me on during the process! wub.gif

If (and it's a HUGE "if",) I ever decided I wanted to share my life with a child, there's always adoption or fostering. I mean, any man who would insist to impregnate me and make me bear his child, isn't the guy for me. You take me for what I am, barren or not.

I've not known I didn't want children, "forever"...but for me it started as a little spark inside me that kept growing stronger, until I was so certain that I scheduled the tubal.

I also scheduled the tubal in response to South Dakota's abortion ban. I didn't want to ever end up being the victim of a contraceptive failure, or a victim of rape, and be forced to bear a child. Not gonna happen.
I agree with the rest of the CBC busties -- this is just something you know about yourself. It's not something one should compromise on. It's like knowing that you're gay or straight. I look at women with the "mommy" emotion, and it's just not there for me. It's hard to explain without going into all the examples from life every day, but it is real.

Speaking of lack of respect, this is what happened the last time I was registered over here (mmmany years ago), the CBC thread got entirely infested with mommas playing CBC bingo, and it was so awful. Then they got really resentful when we questioned THEIR lifestyle choices! I mean, the thread is CALLED "Childless By Choice." Can't you tell it's maybe somewhere that you're not going to be that welcome? Yeesh.

Anyway, not that Pugs was trying to do that, and I will of course give her the benefit of the doubt! I just wanted to point out that if we (I) jump all over you, it's because we've heard it all before, you know?
QUOTE(doodlebug @ Jul 17 2007, 05:31 PM) *
If I meet a man and he wants kids, then he's obviously not the right man for me, plain and simple.

This is what I told people (and not just people I know, this is doctors and such) for years when I was trying to get my tubal and no one would "let" me do it. It always always made me angry. If I went into a doctor's office and told them I wanted to have a child, which would be just as serious and permanent and life changing (more, actually), NO ONE would try to talk me out of it.
substandard english usage
I lurk in here a lot, and I am in total awe and envy of everyone's certainty.

I always thought I didn't want to have kids. I remember being about 15-years-old, alone in my room, when it was like the clouds parted and a beam of light shone down on me and I realized "Holy shit. I don't ever have to have kids."

Kinda like the whole angel visiting Mary thing, but without the faith or the ensuing virgin birth or anything like that.

I was married, and before we were married we were very clear on the fact that I didn't want kids. I was very clear that marrying me met he would never have children.

Then, shortly after I turned 26, all of the sudden I started to rethink it. Suddenly it seemed like something I wanted to do, a child seemed like a person I wanted to be with.

As it turns out, it's a good thing I did not act on my initial impulse because I'm now divorced. The possibility is still there; I go back and forth. I'm 30 now, and starting to feel like I need to make up my mind here sooner rather than later for a couple of reasons. First off, I'm 30. I am not one of those who gets all panicked about declining fertility, but it is a fact that things aren't going to get any easier. Secondly, if I want to bring a kid into this world, then I need to do a better job of positioning myself in it. I personally need greater security in my life before I could try to bring a kid into the mix. Finally, I am dating a truly wonderful man right now who definitely does want kids; it would be a shame to some kid somewhere were this man not to become a father. If I finally decide that I don't want to be a parent, then I need to let him go. I know it's a deal breaker, and that's fair.

Re-reading this, I'm afraid that some here might think that I'm telling my story of indecision to imply that others might feel similarly wishy-washy. That's not at all the case. If anything, reading of other people's unshakable certainty kind of shows me that my ambivalence is not the same thing as being certain. I need to keep thinking about this and figure it out.

There should be a board for the kid-ambivalent. dry.gif
I know a lot has been posted since but POLLY! LOL, that pic is totally the kid!

In response to the current discussion I just want to add that I think there are varying degrees of maternal desire/rejection.
Re-reading this, I'm afraid that some here might think that I'm telling my story of indecision to imply that others might feel similarly wishy-washy. That's not at all the case. If anything, reading of other people's unshakable certainty kind of shows me that my ambivalence is not the same thing as being certain. I need to keep thinking about this and figure it out.
This is exactly how I feel. I too envy those who have certainty either way on this, and hope my posts are not unwelcome here among the certain.

Where I stand, currently I am childfree by choice because I am single and would NEVER want to raise a child on my own, where as I have female friends and family who either are single moms or have said that they will be single moms over being childless. I am however undecided if I would still choose to be childless if I fell in love with a man who wanted to be a parent, and I trusted that he REALLY wanted to be a equal partner in it. If I fell in love with a man who didnt want a baby, I probably wouldn't either.

What really has me on the fence is that while I've never really liked babies or young children all that much, I love teenagers and always pictured myself having one. Also, when I imagine myself as much older I would hope to have adult children. I'm really close with my parents and we have a lot of fun when I visit them, it makes me feel like I would want that for myself later on.

So the question for me becomes how can I go about having adult children in the future without having any rugrats in the present?...One of my aunts never wanted to have a baby but she married a man who already had a teenager--and she loves the kid--but that was all by chance. I also used to be friends with a guy who was (un-officially) fostered as a teen when his parents kicked him out for being gay. I always thought I'd be a good foster mom to a gay teen...of course with growing acceptance of gays hopefully those situations will become less likely. What scares me about fostering though is that the kid might come with a heep of emotional development issues that dealing with may be just as "delightful" as a caring for a screaming infant.

Anyway, yeah. Thats how I feel these days. Should there be another thread for those of us undecided? As women of a particular age it is a fairly huge topic.
Hey all...this is a quick post as I'm just on my way to visit my neighbours....

But anyway, the reason some of us are writing about being "sure" about not having kids was mainly in response to a question about whether or not a person could be "sure" enough to get a tubal ligation (or a vasectomy, I suppose), and thus end all chances of ever having one's own biological child(ren).

I notice that some people who responded are not necessarily opting for voluntary sterilization (yet), but seem to also be "sure" about being childfree, and wanted to give their input on how deep being personally "sure" can go.

No one need be "sure" about being childfree to participate in this thread!
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