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LOL--Actually, my dog has been known to tear pages out of books from bookshelves that were within his reach. And he's thrown up on our bedspread a couple of times. Yes, the little bugger has always had his naughty moments. That said, having him around is still a walk in the park compared to what a human counterpart would be!

Oh, and as for the phone thing, while I maintain that it's absolutely ridiculous to attempt to "chat" with a nonspeaking infant, I will admit that if I'm away and am calling ratboy at home, I will also have him put the phone momentarily to Brut's ear, so that he can at least hear my voice! tongue.gif
If I am away from my pups for awhile, I make whoever's watching them put thiers ears to the phone and a chat with them seems to freak the dogs out though. Technology confuses them.

Dogs definately better than kids any day.
I don't agree that dogs are better than kids, but they're infinitely easier. smile.gif

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I must admit, that I would much rather have to deal with an infant than a toddler or young child. It's when children start to talk, I'm like, what the fuck do I say to it? When young children lean on me or give me hugs, I fuckin' freak out, I'm screaming on the inside.

It's them bratty kids that make me verrrrrrrry upset.
Oh man, I am so the opposite. Even my own kid, I'm waiting for him to get older so I can talk to him and teach him how to do stuff. Babies are boring to me. They just sit there, and occasionally emit noxious substances.

But I'm getting everyone OT.
You know what I really couldn't take? The cultural expectations of what a Mother is supposed to be. Turning one's life and body into public property (at least in the heads of the least-enlightened) does not appeal to me. No matter what happens in a child's life, people will always find a way to blame its mother, and feel so smugly justified in judging. I don't care what the supposed rewards might be, no way in hell will I subject myself to The Motherhood.

Fuck that shit up the ass with a sharp rusty stick.
Luci,you hit the nail on the head, as far as I'm concerned. I dyed my hair plum...and basically went out dressed quite...uhh..."liberated" the other day, and the first thought that went through my head was "thank god I'm not a parent"...because if I had a child and people saw me mothering it with purple bed hair, they'd be questioning my ability to parent.

It sucks but it's true. Every day culture doesn't have room for a mother who's "wild". At least not here in Wisconsin.
do we have a thread about marriage? as in-i don't want to get married so stop telling me i should?

my friend just got engaged, very quickly, i'm totally shocked. and this comes after a weekend with my parents who usually know better than to pressure me, but they did anyways! grrrrr. feeling the need to vent and complain smile.gif i feel like a huge freak of nature for not seeing any good reason to get married.
Maddy - I think that there is a thread in praise of singledom, but yeah I do have to agree at this point in my life a see no real reason to get married.

In general society has expectations of what certain people should look like, a lawyer should look conservative, a teacher respectable etc. so yeah there are certain expectations of what people think mothers should look like, IMHO it's a load of BS. But I have learned that regardless of what I look like people judge me, for example no matter how conservative I try to dress and conceal my figure when I go out, people (namely guys) automatically think that the chunky girl with the big boobs must be slutty. It sucks that people are so judgemental.

I was so pissed the other day when I was in class and the professor put us into groups, the first question out of one of the girls mouth was "are you married and have kids?" WTF!?! We are sitting in a college class and this is the topic of conversation? I would hate to think that I was in college and my biggest accomplishment to date was getting married and having kids.
maddy, I am happily married and it works for me but, it's not for everyone. Some people just weren't meant to be married. Some people are miserable married, the high divorce rates prove that. I say do what makes you happy and don't worry about what other people think.

october, I hate that! People tray to start conversations fishing for common ground, but "do you have kids?" is the worst. I always think is there any thing else we could talk about?

I was irked at work b/c I found out today, a co-worker got a promotion based on the fact she is a single mom with three kids, so they figured she needed the money the most. Education, qualifications, people damned, she has kids so she got the job.

It makes me a little bitter, b/c people assume that b/c I have a husband and no kids, I don't need to work or need a little extra cash. Sometimes I feel like I punished for being responsible and making good choices. Like if I buy something I really want and someone says 'must be nice'...or 'I can't afford things like that b/c I have kids'...and so on. It's really enraging that I get considered carefree and irresponsible, b/c I don't want to have kids or I choose to live my life in different way. I don't know just a rant......
By contract my work day is supposed to start at 7:20 am. I have a supervision I have to be at first period ( I teach high school) I usually manage to make it on time. The other teacher who is in there with me wanders in 20 minutes /15 minutes late and sometimes doesn't bother to show up. ONe day he was late and he say " you can get here on time because you don't have kids". I guess the contract doesn't apply to you when you have kids it is like a free pass to fuck up. That is total bullshit. If you have kids and you know it is gonna take you longer to be on fucking time to your JOB , then work that shit out.

GAH, gk. I absolutely hate that. I've had co-workers expect me to pick up more of the tab when we go out, "because you have no kids"...yet the fact that I'm also single eludes them. So I always say, "yes, but you have two incomes".

"oh, but daycare is SO expensive, it's a negative...I really just have one and a HALF incomes.....and I'm supporting four people"

"shoulda used birth control, eh?"

I cherish the fact that I'm actually able to ENJOY my hard-earned money.

Missladyj, one of my co-workers was constantly coming in fifteen minutes late because he "had to wait for the bus with his daughter"...this went on until she was SEVENTEEN years old! I mean, give me a break. It's not like they live in a crime-ridden area, either. Plus, we have flex-time...he coulda changed his hours to start a half-hour later. GAH.
I actually overheard somebody the other day state that "four kids are easier than one" Enlighten me here - how?!?

I don't know how many times in the workplace it was alluded or outright said to me that I could or should work the crap hours because I was single with no kids. Yep, my sole purpose on this planet is to wait on you and your kids. The world does NOT revolve around you and your children - I really loathe the sense of entitlement that some people have because they chose to spawn.

It also really bothers me when people complain about their work or class schedule and how it takes away from them spending time with their children. You chose to have children and you chose work or school shut up and quit complaining!!

Waiting at the bus stop with a 17 year old?!? I would have been MORTIFIED if my parents had done that! Hell I didn't even want them to wait with me when I was 7!
October, I guess when you lock them in a cage together there is less whining?
Missladyj and Treehugger--your stories of coworkers coming in late and getting away with it simply because they have kids are ridiculous. Especially if it went on everyday, as in the one case...until the kid was 17! Damn!

Years ago, I worked as a bank teller, and I had one coworker who had a baby (at that time, she was the only one there with a small child). The policy was that at the end of the day, after the close of business, nobody got to leave until all of the teller drawers were balanced. The exception: the teller with the baby; she got to leave at a certain time regardless because she had to get to the daycare place before it closed. Believe me, that caused no small amount of resentment among the rest of us.

Gingerkitty, the fact that your coworker got a promotion not based on merit, but simply because she has kids to support--that's truly fucked up! Really, it seems like a form of discrimination, especially if those who promoted her made that reason known and didn't even pretend that it was because of education, hard work, or whatever. I'd be livid if something like that happened in my workplace.

My soon-to-be-stepsister-in-law (I'll call her K) got a good job a few months ago at a local branch of the University of Phoenix, the online college. She doesn't even have a college degree, but she's working there as a counselor for prospective students! I don't know a lot of details about her job, but my mother told me that she makes pretty good money, especially for someone without a degree. Anyway, just the other day, my mother mentioned that K is having some difficulty with her job, because her coworkers and boss don't like her picking up and leaving early so she can get her one-year-old baby from daycare or whatever. In other words, K wants a "flexible" schedule; apparently her employer wants her at work during business hours. Which totally makes sense to me; if a business is open from, say, 9 until 5, then that's when they're going to need their employees. But K apparently feels that her baby comes first, and that she should be entitled to come and go according to when the kid wants to see her. So it'll be interesting to see how that plays out.

The nature of my job is such that a lot of travel is involved; some days quite far away from home. And every day the hours are different, and there's no guarantee exactly when we're going to get home. And I have quite a few coworkers with small kids who have daycare issues. And guess what? They somehow manage to do it, whether by co-ordinating with their spouses, parents, friends, or whoever on a day-by-day basis. So the point is, parents *can* be at work on time and can stay the whole day; it just takes some planning ahead! They all do this at my workplace, because they have no choice if they want to stay employed there.
i can't decide whether this is hilarious, or really fucking mean. i think it might be both.
I'm voting for hilarious, Mouse. Although I also think "House" is hilarious, too.
Hilarious, sort of, in the ambiguity of the sperm-donor

Mean, in that the author just can't resist the idea that child support = evil bitch support
I think that's a great story! The woman tried to trap the guy into marriage by playing the "birth control must have failed"card, and he was able to completely turn the tables on her. Priceless, indeed! laugh.gif
I'm going to agree on the priceless card. Women who trap men and men who trap women make me sick.
both were deceptive, a match made in heaven really. i don't like his generalization that all women like thugs, etc., even after 30, or that all women over 30 are ticking biological clocks, based on this one experience with one woman.
Funny story, but he did sound like a member of the he man woman hating club.

A girl at work today was bitching about how she might point out on our attendance system b/c they won't give her a break. She missed like 4 days she claims b/c one of her kids was sick and they aren't excused. She was going on and on about how un-family friendly our workplace is. That kind of made my day. smile.gif

treehugger,I cherish the fact that I'm actually able to ENJOY my hard-earned money.
Exactly, people act like I am frivolous b/c I spend my money/time how I want. I don't other people crap for having kids, or choosing thier various lifestyles. I say to each his/her own.
The story is funny, but I do have to agree his tone towards women was rather bitter. Especially his dig about "American women" I've seen some websites that are just full of vitrol towards American women. They disturb me.

I hate how society perceives every woman after age 30 or so as desparate for marriage and babies - I'm not and neither are a few of my friends. But unfortunately there are enough bad apples out there perpetuate the stereotypes.

Ginger - where I used to work we had FMLA (family medical leave act) and there were some who abused the hell out of citing their children's health problems. I had a hard time believing they were legitimate and thought the illnesses were more of the product of poor nutrition and bad parenting.
that vasectomy shit is fuckin funny.

glad to hear I am not the only one who has coworkers that are full of shit. but damm 17 and waiting for the bus, that is just unsane.
I don't think it was funny, he sounds like a sexist asshole.

My honey has a vasectomy and told me before we had sex.

I think he is a dishonest asshole.

Not that trying to trap a man is good, it isn't at all, and her dishonesty is equally disgusting. But she is not the one who wrote a smug story about it on Craigs list.

Plus, half of the shit on Craigs List is BS anyway.
They sound as nasty as each other. It's kind of sick he played it out for so long although it does sound like she got what she deserved.

Dude, I took the city bus across town since I was 10. I understand the world is possibly less safe than it used to be but mollycoddling kids--teenagers-- just creates fearful adults.

I jobshared with a married mother of a toddler. I worked another job the other half of the week and freelanced; her mom looked after the baby 4 days a week, so my co-worker could go to work and 'have a chance to go shopping' each week, and she still came in late and ducked out early all the time.
I have one coworker who, every year, takes the first day of her kids' school off from work. Her husband does the same thing. And these kids are in high school! I could understand it if it were the kids' first day of, say, kindergarten, because that's a big deal, but by now the kids have been in school for many, many years. If my memory serves me correctly, my parents never used my first day of school to take the day off from their jobs; to them, it was business as ususal.

This same woman also left work once to take her then- 20-year-old daughter to the doctor. Mind you, the girl had her own car and wasn't seriously ill.

Who knows--maybe parents will band together and campaign to make the first day of school an official, paid holiday (but only for parents, of course). I wouldn't put it past them.
My mom would take time off in the morning to see us off to school, but that was it. She stopped at High School.
Both my parents worked when I was growing up. Past kindergarten, we got ourselves up in the morning, made our own breakfast, and caught the bus.

I am really thankful that I was coddled as a child, it really helped be independent. Adults who were coddled children seem to have troubles adjusting to the world. At least the ones I have meet. My brother in law, for example, extremely coddled growing up. He was actually allowed to drop out of school, in like 8th grade, to this day still lives at home has never lived on is own, has trouble keeping a steady job and my mil still babys him. If he talks about getting his own place or what not, she tells him he is not ready. He is 27!!!

Oh well, everyone have wonderful child free weekends!!
Parents who see their children off to high school in high school?!?!?!?!?!?! Holy shit. My mom stopped doing that when I was in elementary school. I would be mortified if tmy parents did that, I think my parents fucking rock!

As for dr's appointments and such, the last time I had my parents take me to the doctor was when I had my bottom wisdom teeth taken out, I wasn't allowed to drive, because the oral surgeon put me out. My dad drove me, and my mother picked me up.

I loathe people who constantly use their children as an excuse. It's like the story of the boy who cried wolf. Not cool.
My boyfriend's mother still schedules and pays for his dental appointments. It's pathetic!
There comes a time when it is time to let your chidlren grow up.
I think I'd regard a parent that allowed their child to drop out of school in 8th grade - barring some overwhelmingly catastrophic event *bears in mind her own parents' permissiveness when the depression took over senior year* - as negligient, not permissive.

I think it completely and totally sucks the way this (US-centric) society treats mothers. It's touted as the be-all and end-all of Womanhood, but when the event actually occurs, you are shit all over just like everyone else. If nothing else, as I said before, being a mom makes you even more vulnerable to all the patriarchal shit going on. And the heartbreak when despite all your efforts your child starts exhibiting at least some of the hive mind that afflicts us all? Man...I just wanna buy every mom I see a gin and tonic. Go y'all.

I am so incredibly grateful for whatever part of my brain is firing differently than people who want children, and I admit to living in fear of the possibility that some hitherto as-yet-to-be-manifest hormones could kick in and completely change my mind. Being only 24, I know that there are many many changes ahead for me, but if I believed in a sky fairy I imagine I'd be praying daily to keep me happily barren.

Fortunately, the debilitating mental illness factor in my decisions is unlikely to go away anytime soon.

Growing up, be damned. I am 38 and still dependent on my mother to hem all my pants! Well, I can't get the length right on my own, and then she insists on finishing the job. *ahem* I suppose when she is too elderly to do it, I will have to find myself a seamstress.

More seriously, when I got sick recently, my mother came to stay and look after me. She cooked, shopped, helped me bathe, helped me dress, cleaned up my sick, fetched whatever I needed to my bedside, took me to the hospital when I needed it, and visited me every day while I was in there. She also cleaned my apartment, did all my laundry, paid my bills, painted my bathroom door, and defrosted my freezer. Oh, and fed my cats, who would surely have starved to death had she not come.

There's something to be said for being mothered, regardless of one's age.... helps to be almost dying, of course! Absolves one of most of the guilt.

More seriously, I don't know what I would have done without her here. You just never know when you are going to need a parent's help.

On the driving kids to school BFF drives her teens and foster teens to school because it's the only way she knows for sure they will go - well, really, the foster teens. But honestly, some kids are bigtime truants (I was!!!), and not every parent is going to disclose that to everyone....I suspect truancy may be an issue for at least some of the parents still driving their teens to school. (OTOH, some parents are just well-manipulated by their kids.)
Doodle, hemming pants in one thing, it's not like your mom makes your appointments for you! I need my moms help in order to hang dress clothes right. She has to show me so I don't make 'em all wrinkly. and, I hate hate hate ironing!

Being sick same thing. There is a huge difference between needing our parents help and just being lazy and not independent! I had food poisoning, and had liquids coming out of every orface of my body, I don't know what I would have done had I not had my mom's help!
Okay, this would be SOOOOO worth owning!
our parents helping us when we're sick is just family being family, and good family. i'm sure we'd all do the same for our family members who need it. doodle, you seem to have a great mom indeed.

my ex-bf grew up fairly poor and his mom felt that because she couldn't give her kids all the material things, and because she grew up as a slave to chores, she never required them to do anything around the house. no good! he grew up not knowing how to do laundry, dishes, etc. moms, help your future daughters-and sons-in law out! don't baby your children, unless you want to do it forever. seriously, the job of a parent is to make them be productive independent adults. some just want to keep babies forever i guess.

my mom did a good job raising me, making me work as early as 8th grade and every summer after, giving me chores and allowance, being choosy about what trendy toy/clothes i was allowed to have. i remember the fights over the ridiculous clothes i wanted her to buy (once, $50 bullet-holed acid washed jeans, ugh) and now i see the patience she had to argue rather than just giving in. makes me think before buying today, work hard for my money, appreciate what i do have, and most importantly, do it for myself. thanks mom!

ps... i'm not inadvertantly omitting dads here, they just weren't that involved in my or my ex-bf's upbringing.
Yeah doodle, there is a big difference btween having family there when you need them and the kind of stuff we were discussing. By the way, welcome back and hope you are feeling better!

I am just not sure about parents driving thier teenage kids to school. Unless, like doodle said there are truancy issues. But if it makes them late to work all the time it seems like other arrangements should be made instead of expecting one's job to bend the rules for parents.

As far as my mother in law is concrened, she is an enabler. My bil, is pretty smart, talented guy but she keeps holding him back. He was supposed to be taking GED classes but things weren't going well so she just let him quit going. I think she has a fear of being alone, so she keeps him close. It's a shame she won't let him grow though.

lucizoe,I am so incredibly grateful for whatever part of my brain is firing differently than people who want children, doubt, I agree!
My mom used to drive me to school when I was in High School, after my brother graduated and before I had a car.

Class started at 7:15 am and my bus came at 6:15. I was NOT havin that.
QUOTE(nickclick @ Feb 27 2007, 03:31 PM) *

our parents helping us when we're sick is just family being family, and good family. i'm sure we'd all do the same for our family members who need it. doodle, you seem to have a great mom indeed.

I just don't belive that is true. I hadn't read anyone talking about their dad, just their mom. And to say hay it's not bad because you would do the same, on a feminist board....... well duh most women would do the same..... cause it's part of womens social role as care givers. Which is why you would never ready this on a board dominated by men.

Face it men don't even get to the point of thinking should I feel guilty about my unerned privledge. And they never think, oh I should take care of some one.

I saw this first hand when my mom and then my sister had cancer. Do you think my dad lifted a finger. Fuck no. He was to buisy being depressed and acting helpless.

It all fell on my sholders to take care of my mom and then my mom and i's sholders when my siter got ill.

And the whole time my I was helping out with my mom, she was feeling like couldn't she help me.

This whole descusion makes me sick.

All you guys sitting around acting like this situation is ok and normal.

well it's not. It's Stockholm Syndrome.
Um. Dude. I didn't talk about my dad's role in helping me through this because he's DEAD. You fucking jerk.

Yes, that's right. Deader than a doornail. I was there when his lungs emptied for the last time. Pneumonia, in the same hospital I'm being treated at now. Back in 2000, actually; the day after Father's Day. Cremated and poured into the Thompson River, in point of fact. So actually, it's just a little difficult for Dad to provide caregiving to me right now.

But you can bet your ass if my father were alive, he'd be here every day, because his children were the most important thing in his life. When my parents were still together, my mom and dad took turns staying home from work when my brother and I got sick. Even after I became an adult, my dad was always right there for me whenever I was sick or troubled - yes, as a caregiver as well as a support person. And not to mention that it was my father and my uncle who looked after my grandmother when she was aging and unwell.

So check your fucking assumptions. Asshole.

And don't fling your fucking boring old Stockholm Syndrome accusations at us. You can't even imagine how offensive that is. I'm so sick of you trying to school us about oppression theory, like you're a better-informed feminist because you're a white man who's read some stuff (as opposed to the women who've actually experienced gender-based oppression). Hey, don't you have some people of colour somewhere to go teach white privilege theory to?

Fuck off.
Yeah, really- it was my dad who took care of my sister when she had mono for a month because my mom was 600 miles away taking care of her mom who had aphasia and nearly died.

I'm sorry that didn't happen in your family but we're just talking about a couple of situations here, so keep your assumptions to yourself.
I don't live with my father, but when my parents were together he was there, without question. And he still is. If I need anything, no matter what, my father will be there.

For example, when I forgot to plug my car in when it was -50 degrees, I called my dad, and asked him if he had to to pick me up, he did and said that if he was able to, with his work schedule, he wold pick me up from work. Which he did.

Whether it be through sickness, injury (it was my father who took me to the emergency room and held my hand when I had my thumb dislocated and relocated), break ups, general bitching, work or whatever, he is there for me. I am the most importatnt thing to my parents, and stepmother.

Just because you have issues with your father doesn't mean that the rest of us do.
Stopped at Kroger this morning on my way to work. It was busy because my Kroger is in a very busy area of the city, plus it was around lunchtime. The only parking spot open I could find was beside a woman who had 3 toddlers with her. I waited in the aisle to actually pull into the spot, as this woman had the passenger door to her huge van open into the parking spot I needed, and also the 3 kids were standing/playing around in the spot. I understand this and, though I am childfree by choice, I think kids are cute, and I'll have patience. So I smile at the kids and at the woman - a knowing smile letting her know I was cool to wait & not to worry about it - and she shoots me this mean look right into my eyes, and then proceeds to not only take her time doing whatever it was she was doing with the huge van door wide open into my spot - but also she never once asked the kids to move so I could pull in. I waited forever in the aisle just to get in the spot.

I guess the moral of the story is: I'm always plenty happy for people and their kids, always hold doors open for them and stuff, wait on them, etc. But on many occasions, they never seem any too happy for me. I was like, sheesh, it's just ME - and my LITTLE car - just need ONE little space - so I can get in and out - and get to work. So I can pay taxes and keep this a safe community for me (and also your kids).
NoHope, you owe a lot of people a big apology. How on earth is this anywhere remotely close to Stockholm Syndrome?!?!? Do you even know what Stockholm Syndrome is? Because to me, it looks as if you are totally clueless. Please do some research before you embarass yourself like this again.

Wikipedia article on Stockholm Syndrome

We don't suffer from any sort of twisted medical condition. It's called LOVE. It's called COMPASSION. It's called DEDICATION. Loyalty to a loving family is normal and healthy. I absolutely refuse to apologize for the love and support that my family shares. I am only sad to know that there are people out there who do not know this kind of unselfish love.

When my mother began to have mini-strokes, I was by her side, comforting her and supporting her. When my father was diagnosed with prostate cancer, I was by his side, comforting him and supporting him. I did this because I love them. They were scared and, because they are human, they needed loved ones who would help them carry on in their time of weakness. Yes, it was scary for me. But I was there for them. This is not a sign of mental illness. Indeed, I know that it is the sign of a happy, well-adjusted parent-child relationship - a relationship I am all too happy to have.
i havent been here in awhile, but i wanted to throw my two cents in and say that my dad is the best anyone could ask for, and frankly, he would do absolutely anything for me or my sister. i credit him in making me a feminist, just bc he refused to raise me like a "girl" and got me into every sport i ever wanted to play. i credit him with my political views and intellectual curiousity. i credit him with my confidence in general and around men, bc from the beginning he taught me that i could do anything a man could do and then some. my mom is amazing too, but i just thought i needed to add that about my dad, standing up alongside those who also have had fathers that are amazing. is he perfect? no. do i really think he has explored gender based oppression to the point he maybe could? no. do i care all that much? no! he has given me so much, and my entire family so much, that all i can do is be thankful and hope that i am even 50% of the person he is.
QUOTE(nohope @ Mar 2 2007, 01:27 AM) *

I just don't belive that is true. I hadn't read anyone talking about their dad, just their mom. And to say hay it's not bad because you would do the same, on a feminist board....... well duh most women would do the same..... cause it's part of womens social role as care givers. Which is why you would never ready this on a board dominated by men.

Face it men don't even get to the point of thinking should I feel guilty about my unerned privledge. And they never think, oh I should take care of some one.

I saw this first hand when my mom and then my sister had cancer. Do you think my dad lifted a finger. Fuck no. He was to buisy being depressed and acting helpless.

It all fell on my sholders to take care of my mom and then my mom and i's sholders when my siter got ill.

And the whole time my I was helping out with my mom, she was feeling like couldn't she help me.

This whole descusion makes me sick.

All you guys sitting around acting like this situation is ok and normal.

well it's not. It's Stockholm Syndrome.

Trollin Trollin Trollin.

Welcome back, dick.

BTW, ignore noHope, he is mad at the universe for not providing him with boobies and brown skin.
*Puts nohope on ignore list.*

*Calls Dad to thank him for his love, support, and emotional availability.*

*sighs wistfully in appreciation for a semi functional family.*
I dont think its fair to label a long time, albeit contentious, bust member a troll but thats just my opinion. to be sure, i dont agree with most things nohope says, but to put him on ignore is really just a bit immature (and very republican-ish), and goes along with the whole "people on this board only see what they want to see and never want to hear a different opinion and if they do that person is a troll" thing i see so much. that being said, you do owe more then a few people an apology nohope.
Katie, I don't think using the ignore function is "republican-ish"....that's kind of an immature statement in itself. Whether someone is a troll or not, doesn't matter. If "ignore" gives you a better experience in here, and keeps the drama to a minimum, I think its just fine to use it as such.
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