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Ugh! Just returned from "family" Christmas where my brother's 3 year old son was being a fecking nightmare.... Delightful touches included kicking a proper, heavy, leather football right at my head. My brother and his wife are going through a split, and it's like neither one wants to tell the kid off so he'll prefer one parent to the other; consequently, he's a spolit little pain in the arse. I thank Maud I only have to deal with him twice a year. I also thank Maud thay my parents are down with my CBC decision (although I know they are a little disappointed and hopeful that I'll change my mind). They way they indulge my nephew's every foible annoys the hell out of me though, my brother and I were not getting away with ANYTHING when we were kids!
well, we've had the adult-only conversation, and some people felt like that was the same as discriminating against race and what not. i totally disagree, if i'm going on a vacation and i can choose between an adults only place and a "family friendly" place, i'll pick adults only. not cause i hate kids, but it's not the kind of environment that's good to relax in, exactly..

Hey, I know ladies...we can write the "adult-friendly" guide to Chicago! I mean, sure, there's lots of bars and stuff like that, which are obviously adult in nature, but for those of us who are not carousers and looking for a hook-up, how about a guide to the quiet spots to go for adults?! ...I expect many of them might be family friendly spots too - there are definitely places I like to go where there only seem to be well-behaved kids and families Heartland.

I know A Taste of Heaven has taken a lot of flak for their policy of asking families with misbehaving children to go outside, but I always appreciate going there when I want a tasty treat in a quiet, friendly place.

That discussion board was just was like the worst of both sides of the debate, just ranting back and forth!
Edited because I am going mad.
For summer vacation, I love going to the gay neighborhoods on Fire Island, because they're so blissfully child-free. Except now lots of gay couples are adopting -- which is wonderful! -- unless you prefer your beachgoing without a side order of shrieking.
Yeah, you're right maddy, we keep going round and round this one, huh? And I think for me, it comes down to, sometimes I really like a quiet spot to dine, or read a book, and I'll take it with kids or without, doesn't really matter....its more about courtesy, right?

And most of the time I really love the sound of kids, happy, sad, whatever...I even find it cute when the 2year old across the hall runs up and down the halls screaming with glee every morning at 6am. Its the sound of the place I live, and I really would hate to live in a place where you didn't see kids playing and hear their laughter and mischief.

I think there's a HUGE difference between rambunctious, happy kids making noise in an establishment that appears family friendly, and a shrill, shreiking tantrum. The first I find amusing, the second, horrific. When the second occurs with my kidlet, we leave the room. Immediately. I don't care if we're at freakin chucky cheese.
Yeah, I don't mind the "happy kid" noise and the kids playing noise...but if I'm stuck in an airplane sitting in front of a kid who's kicking the seat I'm going to get annoyed.

And I don't think Vegas is a "kid" place. Any more than New Orleans is. I'd go to those two places with the expectation that there wouldn't be kids there, at least not many...and I'd be surprised to be competing with children for the swimming pool.

Although I *do remember being like fifteen and on a vacay with the parents and we went to Vegas. The only place I could go was the pool! rolleyes.gif

And I got back from visiting my aunt who also got a tubal ligation without ever bearing children (although she adopted children before that) uber cool liberated auntie, said to me:

"I was just wondering, and this in no way implies that I think you should but, have you ever thought about adopting children?

I'm not sure what to think about that. I told her about it when I got the tubal and I told her about the post tubal party and everything.....I just. don't. know.

Anyway, I told her I was happily childfree, and that children didn't fit into my life as I saw it and should the impulse come up later I'd consider adopting. I told her not to hold her breath though.

I think part of what brought it up was that my mom was there too (see "support ho's" for inside info on that whole deal) and she saw me sort of caretaking my mom and she was semi-impressed I guess. She told me I did a great job with her.

Anyway, here's to a wonderful childfree 2007 for us! smile.gif
Moxiegirl, the world could definitely use many more parents like you. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen kids ridiculously playing up in public while their parents ignore them. I've gotten to the point a few times where I almost feel like reprimanding the child in question myself. Especially when they are about 7 or 8 and wayyyyyy beyond that age where tantrum throwing is normal. What is wrong with disciplining children, and teaching them manners? Growing up, I had "always respect your elders" drilled into me from a very young age. Why isn't this fashionable now? Where did this cult of not telling you children what to do, but "negotiating" with them come from?
Just curious about others' opinions on this : Should gov't help with multiple births?

It sorta rubbed me the wrong way. I mean, just cause you had a small litter, doesn't mean that the gov't and companies should just give you stuff for free, esp if you used in vitro. You knew you had a good chance of having multiple births, but now you're asking for free stuff? I don't know, while I can understand the need, and also the need for help, I also don't feel like it's my responsibility to help you with your multiple babies.

Maybe I'm being completely insensitive here, that's why I wanted to see what others thought.
I am more irritated by the fact that the woman's making a stink out of not getting charitable tax status. The women's centre couldn't get charitable tax status! Fuck your multiple birthing issues!! We spent three years going the 'round and 'round with Revenue Canada!!!

On the other hand, I don't think anyone is ever prepared for the hardship that can ensue with multiple births, and done is done - you can't stuff them back in! ohmy.gif Or start dividing the poor into the "deserving" and "undeserving." That's what pits the poor against the poor and allows governments/society to discriminate against some of those who are most in need. In this case, there are six brand new, innocent Canadian citizens at stake, who have basic needs to be met. Neither would I begrudge a single mother of one welfare, just because she made the choice to bear her child and keep it with her. Even further down that continuum, nor would I begrudge an addict financial support from my tax dollars while she endured a long detox and recovery period, regardless of what bad choices she made in the past. I support helping all Canadians during times of hardship...that's who we are. And the cost to taxpapers of persistent poverty would be much greater.

Besides (though, of course, non-Canadians can't be expected to know this! tongue.gif), tax dollars don't support the Employment Insurance system, which is what would fund extended parental leave benefits. The program isn't funded out of general revenues at all. It (along with the Canada Pension Plan) is a separate and independent government program, supported exclusively by working people who pay their share of benefits into it, apart from taxation. It's just a question of getting more of a person's money back to them when they need it.
I don't have a problem with public money going towards extended leave, helping parents etc. But don't you have to be fairly privileged in the first place for fertility treatments? I thought they were incredibly expensive.
I think people should be more concerned with adoption and foster parenting than having 7 kids at one time, by unnatural means.

I hate when you see shows about this and some hoo ha says "It was God's will for us to have these babies."

Um no, God's will was that you are infertile. It was Dr. So&So and $600K's will for you to have 7 babies. rolleyes.gif
Ah, you are probably right, rose, I didn't think of that. I wonder if any part of those treatements are covered by the Canadian health care system? Hmmm.
I am kinda iffy about that article....I mean if you choose to take fertility drugs, surely you realize the risk of having multiple babies. It doesn't seem like it would be a huge surprise. I'm all for the extended leave part, but the goverment funding and tax breaks rub me the wrong way. I kind of get upset anyway that people with kids get such big tax refunds while having less taxes deducted from thier weekly pay checks. It feels like I am being punished, for not having kids....and I feel like I am paying for other people's kids. Seems to me if you know the risks of the fertility treatments, and decide to go though with it, you should be prepared mentally and financially for more than one baby. Not expect taxpayers to fork out more money.

I have heard about corprations donating items to families that have a bunch of babies at once. Huggies, car seat makers, stuff like that which is awesome.

ggg, I agree, I am confused about people wanting children so badly and not even considering fostering or adoption. I have never understood that a couple can feel strongly about having children, but feel like they couldn't love a child that wasn't spawned from thier DNA. Seems cold.
reading through these replies I agree with what everyone is saying. I think the thing that rubbed me the wrong way in the article, was the sense of entitlement these parents had. "Where is OUR free stuff?" "The gov't SHOULD help us".
Uhm....... you chose this, you knew what could happen.

Doodlebug, i'm not too sure if our gov't pays fertility treatments. If it doesn't I am sure that the Harper gov't will find a way to make us pay for it. I'm sure the REAL Women are pushing hard for that.

And I agree with the adoption thing. I have always said that IF I wanted children I would want to adopt because it's time to give back to this world and take care of the people already in it, rather than simply bringing more people into it. The whole 'can't love anyone but my own kids" doesn't make sense to me. It's unfortunate that adopting a child is so expensive and difficult, I am sure that turns a lot of people off.
Blue, I work at an adoption agency, and work with couples everyday who have gone through infertility treatments, and I can tell you without a doubt that the dominant thought is NOT "I could never love a baby that is not biologically related." Its more, wanting to have that biological connection to their child, not the opposite of that, if that makes any sense at all. There's also the fear of other people poking into the details of your daily life through the adoption process - its pretty invasive, doubled with the fear of the agency or a birthmother possibly rejecting you. Coming from infertility to adoption is a tough road, one of grieving for the biological child you cannot have, and letting that go, so that you can accept the love of the child that is meant to be yours. Anyway, that's an off topic aside...I just get weary of people ragging on people who choose infertility.

What I would like to see is some screening involved before singles and couples engage in infertility treatments, and especially for there to be some financial screening and counseling involved as well...because it is a financial burden, and families can get into debt deep and fast, and focus so intently on this *need* for a child that they lose focus on the details of providing for a child.

Adopting doesn't have to be expensive, BTW. In the US, you can adopt through the child welfare system for minimal cost, but parents have to be open and flexible to adopting older children, transracial adoption and educating themselves on issues that come out of adopting kids who've had multiple disruptions in their lives. I have a major issue with the fact that our culture isn't as open to adopting waiting children, often dismissing the option because of the challenges that come with adopting older kids. *That's* what burns me up - not infertility, or providing gov't support services to families who need it, however their children came to their family.

Okay, I'll get off the work train is Sunday afterall. cool.gif
Before deciding that I definately didn't want children, ever. I had tossed around the idea of adoption, but I would have undoubtly choosen and older child. It just seems more rewarding to me. That's why I never understood couples unwilling to accept older kids into thier lives. All the crappy baby stuff is over with, and the kid actually has a personality. I don't know.....

On the subject of affordablity, seems like adoption would be cheaper than fertility treatments?
I have only lurked here so far. I just wanted to comment on the whole adoption thing. I work with kids who have severe emotional and behavioral problems, and many of them are in state custody and need families to go to. However, most of them have long histories of very challenging mental health problems, aggression, property destruction, sexual acting out, etc. They can't get the kind of care and treatment that they need due to the serious problems with our social systems and psychiatric treatment options. I do understand the reluctance to take on the responsibility of caring for a child like this. And thre are very few people who have the skills, patience, and resources to provide for these kinds of kids. I would consider doing it but only if it was a kid that I absolutely knew that I could handle and provide for in the best way for them. For example, there are certain kids that I really connect with and others that I don't. When adopting or doing long term foster care for an older child, you usually only get a few meetings with them before "signing on." It would be really difficult to predict how things would go for the long term.
DayGlowPink, I kept nodding as I read your post. Pardon me if I don't go into the details, but I know quite well about the problems involved with taking in older children. These kids usually have not been in protective services since infancy (because plenty of people want to adopt babies). Instead, they were usually taken away from abusive, negligent parents and that definitely warps their minds. I definitely admire your efforts to help these kids.
*not purposely trying to avoid adoption discussion, just have nothing to contribute*

So...uterus transplants, eh? I'm conflicted...especially considering one of the surgeon's position of not feeling doctors are in a position to judge a patient's values, re-getting a new uterus put in in order to have a biological child. Umm, then why all the judgements when women want to cut off potential fetal access to said uterus? The mind, it boggles as the stupid double standard, it burns. Granted, I don't know this individual doctor's opinion of tubals on the nulliparous, but still...y'all get what I'm saying.

On an unrelated note, I realized today that having kids gives some women an almost immediate social group, albeit one rife with competition and pressure, Other Mothers (Well, duh, luci! I can hear you all now wink.gif ). I was sitting in the coffeeshop today (I was thinking that at mid-day it would be quiet and I could get some reading done. Alas) and realized that mothers can strike up kid-related conversations with another mother as a way to break the ice, something I can't do. It's hard for me to make friends and I imagine it's easier with such an obvious point of commonality - a visible toddler nearby.

Of course, then the conversations I overheard never once deviated from the subject of their kids, in a subtle game of oneupsmanship (coffeeshop in a very ritzy, very wealthy area - the privilege burns) re- which private schools, which music lessons, how many languages (do those kids ever get to just play by themselves?). And what happens if the kid - despite desperately trying to condition otherwise - turns out to be a dull twit?

Yet another reason I long for a doggy. Other dog-owners at the park to talk to. Stupid social anxiety.
Luci, I'm with you on the social anxiety...large groups of people intimidate me, and I run out of conversation fast, most times. I'm happy to observe a lot of the time.

And I can vouch for the dog being a brilliant way to gain a social circle...I've been out with turbo less in the evenings now that turbomann is unemployed for the time being and he's doing more of the dog walking. I went out at the normal doggie playtime last night, and everyone was so glad to see me, and had been wondering where I made me feel all warm and fuzzy. smile.gif

As for uterus transplants...I'm gonna come down on the side of NO on that one. High risk, arguably not necessary, chance of tissue rejection and complications...its not a simple thing. I'm just not of the mind that giving birth or even being a parent is a definitive "right." With the kind of money you'd need for that surgery, you could certainly find an unethical agency to speed that process up for you (not that I'm advocating for unethical adoption practices, but its certainly going on out there).
dayglow, my BFF is a foster parent, of "tough" girls - teenaged girls. She takes the ones nobody wants, and she's known as the one who doesn't give up. But yeah, it's very hard - it's also been hard on her bio kids, though they are incredibly well-adjusted. It's not just that they break your heart, it's that they have all these other behaviours from the way they've been raised and socialized, and it's not so easy to break them out of it. It's a huge, complicated process - my BFF is a full-time foster parent (single parent), and spends most of her time running around from appointments to schools to meetings....and getting them to just finish high school is a miraculous accomplishment. This year, one girl has been approved for a basketball scholarship to the local university, and it's like the second coming.

It makes me so frustrated to see these kids floundering around in the world (and the system), and a lot of the time, it boils down to poverty or bad parenting. It's not fair. Although in many cases of poverty, I really wish the government would own up to the fact that it's cheaper to increase the welfare rates and provide other supports, than to support kids in the foster care system. But I really wish people would take more time to think before they have kids in the first place. And it really can become a vicious circle - a lot of these girls think it's perfectly normal to start raising children of their own while they are still in their teens! Most of them don't even think about what they want to do with their lives, except in a starry-eyed, dreamy kind of way that will never materialize.

You know what I love, though, is when they come to visit me - a happily-childless woman who lives in a peaceful space all her own, and does her own thing as she damn well pleases. There aren't many "role models" like me out there, especially in a smaller community like mine, but I find that some girls get a glimpse of that life, and start to at least think about achieving something for themselves, outside of being attractive/sexy enough to land a mate and/or fulfilling themselves through motherhood.

I had an aunt who was that for me, and it changed my life. After spending time with her, all I could dream about was having what she had: an apartment of my own, filled with plants and a wall of books and a couple of cats, and a cool job, and a fun, creative hobby....oops, and now I have it! biggrin.gif
Luci, definately with you on the having kids being a gateway to friendships. I'm just socially dumb! Almost everyone I work with has kids and I see how easily they strike up conversation just mentioning thier kids. And I'm a bit jealous. But at the dog park, I easily strike up conversation with complete strangers.

Roseviolet, dayglow, you both bring up excellent points on adoptions concerning older kids.

Uterus transplants, I haven't heard enough about them yet, so I can't decide how I feel yet. My first instinct is to question the need, though.
My friend is pregnant, I've decided I'm going to support her in her decision. I've let her have the impression that I never want to see the child, when the truth is I'd babysit in a heart beat. I told her boyfriend this, but I swore him to secrecy.

I'm really worried, that now she has the kid, I'll never see her again. I'm contemplating opening my home to the child so she can feel comfortable bringing it along to visit, so I'll at least get to see her.
Wow. Anybody read this article about the family being kicked off a plane because their toddler was having a fit?

I freaking love it!!! I should write the airline. I think what people don't get is that it's not a simple thing to coordinate things like hundreds of flights taking off from an airport...or like at my job, a c-section schedule. You come in late, and you effect not just the folks taking care of you, but people booked for additional sections, and the staff at the doctor's office, and the patients with appointments that day, etc.

I think 15 minutes is long enough to give the parents to settle their kid down, if it isn't starting to work by then, forget it.
Good for Air Tran....I know I'm not a parent and all, but I don't know how you could possibly NOT be able to get your 3 year old into a seat...I mean, you're physically able to pick her up, right? And you could just put her in her seat, tantrum and all, I would expect. Then, try and soothe/distract her while she's in her seat. Sounds like bad parenting to me. An airplane is one of those places that I think parents should really hold high behavioral expectations when kids are old enough to understand what is appropriate/inappropriate....I know my parents did. They loaded us up with puzzle books, mad libs, books, snacks, etc to keep us busy when we flew to FL each fall to visit family.
Oh, good for them. Must have been Enlightened Parents, who wanted to let their child keep expressing her creativity all over the plane instead of *gasp* physically restraining (stifling!!!) her and distracting her with a shiny toy.

I was on a flight from Munich to D.C. (in other words, over 7 hours) with a four year old across the aisle from me. She didn't have her own seat, so she sat on her mother's lap the entire trip. Hellacious. The woman didn't bring a solitary thing for the kid to do, not that she could have done much being cramped in like that. Poor thing.

I am super snarky today. I think I'm tired of 1 - the madness in the F-Word threads, though I am secretly delighting at one aspect of it, and 2 - always being nice to everyone. I am tired of jumping into traffic because the Stroller Brigade insists on marching side-by-side, blocking the entire sidewalk with their GINORMOUS SUV strollers, without slowing down, threatening everyone in their path. I am also tired of having to hide inside all day, because any attempts to find a quiet coffeeshop to read in are thwarted by people having their mommy groups, wherein they can pretend they haven't just seriously sidetracked the fabulous careers they sometimes refer to in their mostly diaper-related conversations.

Ugh. Okay. That's out now. I mostly just feel sorry for them.
I don't call them SUV strollers, I call them Yuppie Attack Strollers smile.gif
QUOTE(turbojenn @ Jan 23 2007, 09:25 PM) *

Good for Air Tran....I know I'm not a parent and all, but I don't know how you could possibly NOT be able to get your 3 year old into a seat...I mean, you're physically able to pick her up, right? And you could just put her in her seat, tantrum and all, I would expect. Then, try and soothe/distract her while she's in her seat. Sounds like bad parenting to me. An airplane is one of those places that I think parents should really hold high behavioral expectations when kids are old enough to understand what is appropriate/inappropriate....I know my parents did. They loaded us up with puzzle books, mad libs, books, snacks, etc to keep us busy when we flew to FL each fall to visit family.

I have a four year old step daughter, you can make them do anything, those people should be embarassed at their child's behaviour. It sounded like the child was not even sitting next to the parents? If that is the case than why? If I was sitting next to my daughter, I could keep her in the seat.

The airline was not even rude to the people, they reimbursed them and gave them free tickets anywhere. Just leave the brat at home.
i dunno, i mean i'm all for parents keeping their kids quiet-i've had waaaay too many experiences of having my seat kicked, etc and the parents have NO clue. at the same time, with a toddler, dang. sometimes they just have to tantrum for a while until they calm down. it's hard to tell from the article what the parents did to try to help the situation...but three year olds are NOT reasonable in any way....

when my step son whas three, he had some doozies, but he could get it together within fifteen minutes. The girl was easier, but she had her moments.

The thing is, I know it is not impossible, to keep a child in her seat. It was not the screaming, etc, it was the fact they could not restrain their daughter. When mine was 3, she weighed, AT MOST, thirty pounds.

If you can not reach over and keep the kid in her seat,l well, she must be one big toddler.
lol, yah, that's true-i've just seen a lot of 3 year olds do that crazy squirmy thing that makes them like a greased pig. ya know what i mean? i babysit for a 3.5 y.o. and sometimes i'm just like holy crap!!!!!!

it does seem weird that between the two of them, they couldn'tn force her into the seat and buckle her in.....
QUOTE(maddy29 @ Jan 23 2007, 10:14 PM) *

lol, yah, that's true-i've just seen a lot of 3 year olds do that crazy squirmy thing that makes them like a greased pig. ya know what i mean? i babysit for a 3.5 y.o. and sometimes i'm just like holy crap!!!!!!

it does seem weird that between the two of them, they couldn'tn force her into the seat and buckle her in.....

Exactly, that is why I was thinking they weren't sitting next to her? At least I hope they weren't. If that is the case, then the airline is just as responsible.

If they were, than yah, they got some issues!
I'm having flashbacks to some of the bad tantrums I threw in my childhood. I could be a terror! But I can't imagine it lasting for 15 minutes! Holy crap! I feel stressed just thinking about it.

I can't say how much blame I would put on the parents vs. the child because I know that kids of that age can be highly unreasonable. Plus, this may have been the end-all-be-all worst tantrum this kid will ever throw in her entire life. I'm imagining her undoing the seatbelt as soon as her parents strapped her in and screaming and clawing and screaming some more. When you've got a squirmy kid acting like that, it can be hard for a linebacker to keep them still without a roll of duct tape.

But I certainly do not blame the airline. As has already been said, the airlines run on very tight schedules. AirTran simply required the child to be seated & strapped down with a seatbelt. The law requires that of all passengers during takeoff. So I really don't see how this family was treated any differently than any other passengers. Indeed, the reimbursed tickets and everything were extraordinarily generous! If AirTran had kicked off a drunken adult passenger who refused to sit down, I can't imagine them being nearly as nice. And I support that, too, as an adult should behave with more maturity and responsibility.
I think the issue is that some parents don't take into consideration what normal acceptable public behavior is and how their kids behavior affects others. I know 2, 3, and 4 year olds who would be completely able to handle themselves on a long plane ride, if given the right toys/activities, etc. I know others who can't handle a 15-minute car ride. The bottom line is that if you have one of those kids who you know can't handle themselves, a plane trip isn't for them.

Parents like that think the world revolves around them and their kid and it's the rest of us who have the problem.
(Butting in to bring your attention to this lovely shirt from Gawker: "I Hate Your Kids". Heh.)
This is my personal favorite. It's a little hostile, but I like the pun.
hee hee, I need to get one of those for my cattledog, he hates kids.

Maybe this is cold but I think there need to me age restrictions on planes. Only kids 5 and up. I'd feel like I was in hell if I was stuck next to some strangers toddler for four hours.

I wish people in the grocery store would corral thier offspring, a little more. I am almost always running into other people kids or waiting for ever for kids to get out of center of the aisle while their parents ignore my existence. My mom made us behave in the store, we wouldn't have dreamed of running wild.
Actually, my problem in grocery stores is with adults - either spaced out and not aware of other people, thus causing traffic jams or my personal pet peeve - the cell phone talkers!!! Arrrrgh! I swear, everyone in this town is on their cell phone ALL the time. Personally, its worse than any tantrumming child for me. Tonight was a classic example...this woman actually ran her cart into my ass because she was on the phone and not paying attention!
I saw the ousted parents and child on the news tonight- they looked pretty normal. The kid was just sitting there, playing with a puzzle. Wonder if they brought that along on the plane. Maybe they wouldn't have to go through all this if they had! Maybe they sedated her for the camera crew.
One time I had to fly from NY to Houston, and this mother was flying with her two young children. It was a small plane, so she had to sit with her daughter, then I was across the aisle by the window sitting next to her son. For safety reasons, the kid couldn't sit in the aisle so we had to switch and he was away from his mom. The kid couldn't have been more than four years old, and even then he was a perfect angel. The mom kept him busy and passed him some food, reminding him to be polite, so he offered me some of his snacks. Then he just minded his own business for the next 3 hours. It was incredible.

Then there has been my experience every other time I've flown, where there are babies screaming non-stop, little kids kicking the back of my seat, and more little kids just poking their noses and staring at me. This last time I flew there was also a kid who kept throwing a tantrum right before takeoff because the flight attendant kept telling her to put her seatbelt on and she didn't want to. The parent was just trying to negotiate and reason with the kid. If that had been me as a child, my dad probably would've just buckled me up and smacked me if I tried to get out of it. None of this negotiating crap.

I think that airline is awesome.
I agree with AirTran's decision and very much hope it sets a precedent. They refunded the parents and gave them tickets, so it was hardly punitive. As the article points out, the other 100+ passengers were being delayed by this 3 year old, which meant they were at (slight) risk of missing connections etc.

I have flown longhaul repeatedly and generally if young kids are acting up I blame the parents. It's one thing if they're visting far-away family, but to inflict badly behaved offspring on dozens of full fare paying passengers because they want an exotic vacay with a toddler who won't notice his/her surroundings? More entitlement attitude, plain and simple.

Added to which young children don't like flying. They get bored and then distressed when their ears start hurting and they don't understand why. Finally, when safety issues are involved, you do not negotiate with a child; you buckle them in and use it as a lesson about the importance of obeying safety measures.

I've gone on about this topic before; suffice to say that the first airline to offer a childfree service will clean up.
I saw good, if almost strict parenting recently at a restaurant. It was a family with two mommies, who kept both their kids very quiet and well behaved. One of the kids accidentally dropped food on the table, picked it back up and ate it, and one mother scolded her, saying "We don't eat food off the table-I don't appreciate this behavior." The kid didn't get upset or argue. Some might say that was harsh, but she didn't say it angrily, just assertively. I could've imagined what would've happened if they were screaming or running around. The children didn't seem sad or scared of their parents, just calm and polite. My friend with me, who works with little kids and is used to obnoxious, screaming children, was shocked at how the mother reacted-she muttered, "oh my god, the kid didn't even do anything" and I agreed, they hardly did anything wrong, but I still very much appreciated these parents keeping such close watch over their children, especially in a public place.
the first airline to offer a childfree service will clean up

oohhhhhh what a concept!!!!! imagine......sounds so nice smile.gif dare to dream...
You know, I used to work at Steak & Shake (ugh!) and it's like a lot of the parents REFUSED to watch their children or get them to behave, they thought that should be OUR (the waitstaff) jobs! We would have kids barreling into the kitchen, knocking shit over, on a typical Sunday lunch it was RIDICULOUS. OMG I had nightmares...
I also enjoyed working at INdian Restaurants and Thai places, when parents would bring their kids in and ask
for kids menus. When I told them we did not have kids menus, they would ask, all aghast, "well what are the kids supposed to eat?!"!"!"

Me reply "in India, kids eat Indian food."
Don't you have like a Indian pizza or hot dog or something on the Taj kiddie menu? tongue.gif I would have loved Indian food as a kid!! It's so freaking good.

I was talking to a refugee from Burma today, and he was shocked that I have choosen to never have kids. He had everyone in Burma has kids. He wondered what I do with myself, how I could possibly spend my life? Which is okay, I understand the cultural differnces. Just reminded me how lucky we are to have the choice!
QUOTE(ginger_kitty @ Jan 24 2007, 10:56 PM) *

I was talking to a refugee from Burma today, and he was shocked that I have choosen to never have kids. He had everyone in Burma has kids. He wondered what I do with myself, how I could possibly spend my life? Which is okay, I understand the cultural differnces. Just reminded me how lucky we are to have the choice!

I thank my lucky stars every day for the choices I have about lifestyle, marriage and reproductive rights. It's one of the many things I appreciate about where and when I live.
Yep--I, too, feel fortunate to live in a culture where being childfree is an option, even if the "default" is still to have kids. Had I been born, say, 20 or 30 years earlier, or in a different country, then I might have popped out one or two, because, as in the example of the Burmese cited below, over there it's just something you do. Yikes! ohmy.gif

I'm contributing my $0.02 a bit late on the AirTran brouhaha, but I did read about that in the news earlier this week, and the story brought a smile to my face. In my lifetime, I, like many others here, have been on countless flights that were made more unpleasant by children's bratty behavior. On one particularly memorable transatlantic flight (Milan to Chicago) there was a toddler aged 2 or 3 years old a few rows down from us. This kid kept getting out of his seat, running up and down the aisle and screaming and carrying on. And his mother was just laughing and smiling and doing absolutely nothing to get him under control. I wanted to strangle her!

Clearly, it's not feasible for airlines to completely ban little kids/babies from flights (I wish it were!); think of the potential uproar on the part of all the breeders who travel. But I love the idea of a childfree airline, or existing airlines offering childfree flights. I'd certainly be one of the first in line for that!

Kids' menus at an authentic Indian restaurant? What were these parents expecting--PB&J sandwiches and fries at the ready to accomodate their sprog? Jeeeez.

Somehow all this talk has reminded me of the recent BUST magazine article called "Newborn Free," which I know has been discussed in here. An anecdote was mentioned about a father who came to work furious because the previous day, he'd been with his young daughter at the mall and had seen a store called F.C.U.K.--as in a brand name! He was apparently deeply offended that his daughter saw something that so closely resembled a swear word. I guess that company should change their name to accomodate nervous parents. wink.gif

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