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Yeah, I often have to listen to religious posturing. Within my own family. I'm the one and only non-christian. When someone goes off on a religious tangent, I just try to tune it out. There are some things that I'll engage them on, things pertaining to women, the "fate" of non-christians, and homosexuality being a few. You're dead on about how some of them think it's okay to push their offensive views on you, but are all like NUH-UH when you turn the tables. And they don't even KNOW that they're being incredibly hypocritical, since they're so convinced of their own righteousness.
If I were you, I'd just come out and demand some respect. To hell with any consequences that may arise, such as your bf getting miffed at you. You deserve respect, you're a human being like the rest of 'em. Tell them to lay off the bible-banging "Indoctrinate Your Kids While They're Young and Impressionable" books. If that doesn't work, give them some spell books biggrin.gif or something like that. Maybe a nice pentacle necklace tongue.gif
And I'm adding "Sweet Tap Dancing Jesus!" to my repertoire of funny/offense exclamations. That's hilarious tongue.gif
This is one of the few arenas in life where I just grin & bear it. My father's whole family (The only blood I have.) are all born again nutjobs. Out of respect & because I am out-fucking-numbered, I keep my piehole shut on all things religious. I feel bad about it, but it's hard enough keeping myself from swearing or taking the lord's name in vain or keeping to "safe" topics that it's too hard to muster the energy to defend myself as an atheist. And last year they had one of those free DVDs about homosexuality & marriage right there on the coffee table . . . I wanted to chew my own tongue off every time I saw the goddamned thing, enough so that I hid it under a stack of Ebony mags so I didn't have to see it. I constantly want to call them out for their hypocrisy & haterism, but what can I do? Nothing I can say is gonna change their minds anymore than anything they say is gonna change mine.

It's funny, though. My house? Is considered a holiday "safe haven" for most of my adult aunts & uncles & my cousins. They come over here to have a drink, smoke a fucking bowl, & I let my auntie smoke cigarettes in the house instead of making her sit in her car. We listen to secular music & talk shit. Apparently sinners are okay when they let your let you hair down.
I love everybody's comments; thank you all for the feedback. Aural: You really hit it right on: We are not able to change one another's minds (and it's a free country; I don't WANT to change their minds). I just don't get why it's always us watching our Ps and Qs lest we offend THEM. Surely they KNOW they are pissing us off when they talk about certain subjects. I do my damn best not to upset them (they are family, after all). I'm sure I've slipped up; but it has always been by accident.

AbleDanger: Your boyfriend wants you to convert? It goes without saying that this is a very personal decision that only you can make...but if it really is NOT your cup of tea, I would move on. I did convert one pretty hard-core fanatic to my way of thinking simply by taking him to the library and exposing him to some research. He was open-minded enough to read several books that opened his eyes. (I'm sure all the trolls who come here to spy on us are furious right now. GO AWAY. GET YOUR OWN FORUM. They do have Jesus forums, you guys know that, right)??
QUOTE(koffeewitch @ Nov 7 2009, 09:29 AM) *
I just don't get why it's always us watching our Ps and Qs lest we offend THEM.

Because I am the lone dissident. It is a bare minimum of five against one. If I stood up, I'd be the one bad apple that spoilt everyone else's holiday by not believing that Jesus is the reason for the season. Nevermind that most biblical scholars place the birth of Christ nowhere near Dec 25, but that it stands as such because it's close to the pagan winter solstice & it was easier to convert the pagans if the holidays were still kinda close.
QUOTE(auralpoison @ Nov 7 2009, 12:45 PM) *
Nevermind that most biblical scholars place the birth of Christ nowhere near Dec 25, but that it stands as such because it's close to the pagan winter solstice & it was easier to convert the pagans if the holidays were still kinda close.

Yes, I like to think of Xmas as when the birth of the Sun became the birth of the Son.
Have you guys heard the Dar Williams song "Christians and the Pagans". How does the chorus go? The CHristians and the pagans both sat down at the table; They celebrated their holidays the best that they were able"... er, something kinda like that. She put it much, much better. Her songs are a feast of snarky feminist delight. She writes what some people call "vagina music"; but vagina music is great stuff in my book.
Already reported to moderator.
hey koffeewitch, I am so glad I've only rarely had to deal with those kinds of things. I do have a similar problem in that with a small portion of my sweetie's family, you're guaranteed to have to sit thru some kind of racist conversation during the evening. Arguing with them will only make the conversation last longer, so you have to sit still and shut up if you want the conversation to move back to something tolerable. ooohh I hate it, and I imagine that's exactly what it's like with the religion thing. You're always trying to completely avoid any topic that might eventually lead to the topic of ethnic differences (or religion) and you end yp feeling not at all yourself the whole night, when all you want to do is yell at them how dumb and closed-minded they're being! Usually he will say something to make them shut up or change the conversation, and he has much more power in the situaiton because it's his family. Have you talked much with the Mr. about how to deal with it as a couple, and where your boundaries are that you will need him to step in, change the topic, or find an excuse to take you out of the room?
My study abroad in college was in New Zealand- I went partly for the gorgeous scenery and partly because I was losing my mind with hypocritical bigoted religious American culture.

If anyone wants a few belly laughs, watch the great George Carlin in his Religion is Bullshit skit... RIP George Carlin!

Me and Satan are having a wild orgy tonight. Everyone is invited.

This is just too much fun.
Truth has Vagina Envy.
And doesn't even understand what people are saying. What a dunce.
Are you trying to piss us off?

ETA: Well that troll was gone quickly.
angie21: ah yes, the racism. In my family get togethers that happens, too. Even more annoying (in my opinion) than out-right honest racism, it's the insidious white-guilt brand of racism. The "I'm not prejudice BUT..." brand of racism. The "I don't see color" and "They/"them/those people" sort of racism.
A few years ago I was studying Arabic. I was also living in my in-laws house and you would have thought that I was a traitior of some sort. They HATED the fact that I was learning anything about Arab and Muslim culture. Constantly I had to hear that Muslims are incapable of rational thought (they invented algebra and chemistry) or civil behavior (Muslim women could own property, keep their own money after marriage, and inherit family wealth SEVEN HUNDRED YEARS AGO. Western women just got these right in the 20th century. Most Muslim countries have also had women prime ministers/presidents). I am not a Muslim, but I recognize that in many ways the prophet Muhammed could be seen as a feminist (especially for his time/place).

Anyway, atleast the racism is more likely something that gets spread about when I am out of the room. The religion is a constant struggle on "religious holidays", especially. (Sigh). Like Aural Poison said, I am out-numbered so I keep my pie-hole shut. Mr. koffeewitch hates it, too. But they are his family (by blood). He can be rude to them; I (the "in-law") feel the need to be polite. Besides when I have tried to spread a little enlightenment around the room (about racism) they just don't GET it. I keep repeating their words to them thinking they MUST see the implicit bias /prejudice that their choice of words and the underlying attitudes that these words reveal. It almost never works.
Religion I let fly, racism or homophobia I will jump on with a quickness (I am biracial & queer friendly, dontcha know!). I have an ignorant great aunt that I can literally clock as saying something racist to me in under seven minutes of walking in the door. She still uses the term "coloured" for fuck's sake. She gives me the "no offense, but . . . ". No buts. If you think you're going to offend me then shut it. And my mother's boyfriend, my mother's boyfriend is a total homophobe & he doesn't care who knows it. One of the last times I saw him, he got a few drinks in him & started in on it. I just looked at him & said very loudly, "You're a homophobe. I got it. Now shut the fuck up." He looked at me like I'd slapped him, but I've never had to hear that shit again.

The born again aunt that smokes & drinks at my house is homophobe. I always call her on it. And it's weird because her teenage son? Makes my gaydar go batshit. That kid is gayer than Christmas. Eventually I am gonna share with him some cocksucking tips I got from my best gays. Ladies' mags always say "enthusiasm" is your best bet, I call bullshit, the gay boys have taught me how to suck it like I have one.
You just reminded me of the years I spent working in a nursing home with the world war II generation. Many of them referred to the DOCTOR as "that colored boy".

Another great moment happened when this particularly crazier-than-bat-shit lady put her call light on because she had noticed a suspicious looking man in the hallway. He was "rather dark. and different-looking. Not quite one of us ".

The suspicious man was a very clean cut, white guy. Dark haired and very slightly olive complected. Very polite and with his family members visiting his sick grandma. I guess she thought he was there to rape old ladies. If an actual black man came to visit, I have no idea what crazy lady would have done. Is it awful of me to suggest she die on the spot from her terror?

"Greatest Generation" my ass.
One of those aunts I mentioned? Insists on refering to her Japanese doctor as a "Chinaman". She seems to think it's cute in a folksy way.
ugh, my Mom will say - the Oriental people, or what are they called now? me - you mean people of Asian descent? easily enough... Asians. at least when she knows someone is Korean or Chinese she will use the correct terminology.

and then every Thanksgiving, Easter, whatever, my parents' Polish (!) neighbor drops by and tells my entire family at least 3 new racist jokes. we all groan, but he lives right next door and he kindly shovels their driveway and watches the house when they're away, so what can i do?
As another biracial bustie I go a bit crazy with the comments that I get from my family. Unfortunately, I feel like I get shit from both sides! It's like my white grandparents don't see me as Indian and my Indian cousins don't see me as white! They both say offensive shit.

With my grandparents they use terms like "jap" and don't understand why that is completely offensive. As for stuff they actually say about Indian people it's always the same old "Well I'm not referring to you!" excuse. They go on and on about how Indians were taking over England and how great it was that Margaret Thatcher put a stop to that. Well guess what, when you occupy a country for hundreds of years and force people to become British subjects then they damn well should come into "your" country!

Some gems from my grandmother (as previously mentioned in the family thread) are that Indian weddings aren't really real. She also told me that when my parents were getting married and going through the pre-wedding ceremonies that she was totally shocked because it all seemed so "heathen" to her. Um, wtf? They aren't sacrificing chickens or anything.

As for the Indian cousins, first off I just feel like I don't fit in with them. Usually the comments aren't as outright racist but they make jokes about white people being stupid. A lot of time it's simply in the tone of voice. The punjabi word for white is "gora" and it'll just be like "Oh, look at those goras!" Gora isn't a racist term, it literally means white but it's the way they say it.

Surprisingly, though, sometimes they say stuff that is offensive to me as someone of Indian origin. Waaaay back when I first hung out with my cousins from England they kept calling each other pakis and thought it was some big joke. I find that extremely offensive. I guess some people try to own the word but I just thought it was stupid.
QUOTE(candycane_girl @ Nov 10 2009, 08:58 PM) *

Some gems from my grandmother (as previously mentioned in the family thread) are that Indian weddings aren't really real. She also told me that when my parents were getting married and going through the pre-wedding ceremonies that she was totally shocked because it all seemed so "heathen" to her. Um, wtf? They aren't sacrificing chickens or anything.

That would make me crazy!
How can anyone watch an Indian wedding ceremony and not be taken with it's beauty and struck with awe for a culture that goes back THOUSANDS of years?! The beauty of most Indian ceremonies leaves me humbled and speechless. How is an ancient tradition NOT a real wedding?
Because it's not Christian, duh! tongue.gif
Ahh yes. That explains it. Reminds me of the time I found an apartment in a brick A-frame house on a quiet wooded street in a great neighborhood...a perfect place for my family. When we went to apply on the rental app, the woman noticed we had dif. last names and asked if we were LEGALLY married. Uh, NO, does it matter? We've been together hella many years and have kids together... Oh, fuck, did it ever matter. The bitch read us the riot act about how a "family" is a husband and a wife married under the sanctity of God...............blah, blah fuckity blahblah.
I love religious fanatics telling me that MY FAMILY is not a "real" family. How's that for some peace, love and Christian tolerance? smile.gif
Don't y'all just love it when people say to you "I'm not racist, BUT I don't think white people and black people should get married."
Uuuuuuuuhhhhhh.... really? Are you stupid, or do you think I'm stupid? I don't know how they can't see the contradiction there.

Y'all, don't stone me, but I didn't know that using the term "Oriental" was a no-no until pretty recently. Can anyone explain to me why? I must say that I like the word "oriental." It's pretty, don't you think?
"Oriental" is generally inoffensive as long as it isn't applied to people.

American Heritage Book of English Usage notes that:

It is worth remembering, though, that Oriental is not an ethnic slur to be avoided in all situations. It is most objectionable in contemporary contexts and when used as a noun, as in the appointment of an Oriental to head the commission. In these cases Asian (or a more specific term such as Vietnamese, Korean, or Asian American, if appropriate) is the only acceptable term. But in certain historical contexts, or when its exotic connotations are integral to the topic, Oriental remains a useful term

Hm..... but when did Oriental get a bad connotation when used to describe someone's ethnicity? Is it because it's just too general?
I wish I had an answer for you jsmith. I remember when I was younger that Oriental was a generally accepted term. Somewhere along the line it became unacceptable. What bugs me with the term "Asian" is that people only apply it to people that they would have previously called Oriental. I have never witnessed anyone referring to an Indian person as "Asian" because it's seen as more obvious that the person is Indian (although they could be Sri Lankan or Pakistani so there is still some confusion). I think that basically people are afraid to admit that they can't tell the difference between people who are Chinese, Korean, Japanese, etc.
I read a kick-ass poem once by an Asian-activist about the word "Oriental". I read it a dozen years ago but I'll try to paraphrase. Oriental is "bucktooth Charlie and laundromats. No tickee, No washee. Oriental means bad drivers and stright-A students" etc. etc. The writer evoked EVERY sterotype the word oriental conjues up. And the attitude of "oriental-looking" meaning "whereever the fuck they are from, they all look alike anyway".
If you're asking WHEN the word was identified as a racist moniker, I would assume in the 1960s and 70s. Obviously because of the second WW, Korea and VIetnam the US was seething with hatred of South Asia. But I agree with AP, oriental is a fine word for carpets and lamps, etc.

ANd NO, we're not going to stone you J.S. It's a perfectly good question to bring up.
i *think* the term 'Orient' has roots in the West as term used to depict Eastern culture and peoples. in other words, it did not begin in Asia and in turn has been used to describe something as 'other.'
I see what you all are saying. Thanks smile.gif

QUOTE(koffeewitch @ Nov 12 2009, 06:49 AM) *
ANd NO, we're not going to stone you J.S. It's a perfectly good question to bring up.

I should've had more faith in y'all, I know. I've become so used to prefacing a statement or question so as not to give anyone the wrong idea. Gotta stop that.
I'm soooo irritated with self-righteous religion-obsessed nutbags who feel the need to shove their point of view down my throat.
I belong to this homeschool forum for people in my city. It is supposed to be an "inclusive" forum for families of all philosophies and backgrounds. The majority of the postings are about free educational events around town, used textbooks for sale, etc.
Last week some haughty self-congratulatory bitch got on the forum to post her views on health care saying she "chooses to PAY for healthcare NOT take government handouts so she has the right to a voice, etc. etc.' We kindy informed her that her remarks could be seen as offensive and to please post them on a political forum or even a conservative homeschool forum. We got all kinds of religious nutbaggery about the health of debate (i.e. it's healthy when it is about their point of view) and the american way. Some of us finally got nasty in return; most of us kept pointing out that there are thousands of forums where such b.s. is appropriate, our homeschool forum is noooooooot the place.

My stickuptheass: Everytime someone crosses the line and goes into partisan-land, it's one of the right-wingers who "can't imagine WHY anyone would be offended" by their ignorant fucking opinion. The rightwingers were actually quoting PHYLIS SCHAFLEY'S BLOG!! Who knew Phylis was even around anymore except as a bad joke told in feminist circles?! Phylis Schafley! Who next? Margaret Thatcher?? I swear these Christian radicals are even nuttier than the image of them I have in my mind. Just like here in the Lounge, we have these nutbag WE go over to their forums and get usernames to leave inflammatory comments? Fuck, NO.
Busties, I have no idea what nutjob just posted because I have used my handy dandy "ignore" button. I invite you to do the same and go about your business.
I have already reported to the mods.

Anyway, (regarding my former post about my local homeschool forum) at the last check we finally got our homeschool forum back to homeschooling issues and free of religious tyranny. Thank Maude. smile.gif
Don't forget to thank Thor, too biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
and Jeemus
and Krishna
and the invisible pink unicorn
cause they all exist wacko.gif
Did anyone see Shakira's comments about sex being more important than religion? Take that, fundies.
I did, Tommy.

(Look at the paragraph opposite the 2nd photo of Shakira, in particular...)
Here's a study that will confirm what we've all known all along. It seems in the U.S. that atheists and agnostics not only know more about religion that believers...but the more fundamentalist the believer, the less actual religious knowledge they have. The southern bible-thumpers are so butt-clueless it's really kinda frightening.
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