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Full Version: What the F@%&?! And more feminist outrage...
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QUOTE(candycane_girl @ May 26 2007, 12:22 AM) *
I'd have to disagree with the mom having kids at that age. I'm not saying that she shouldn't be allowed to do it but I think the reason it creates an uproar is because the older the mother is the more risk there is for birth defects, complications, etc.

I'm not really sure about sperm though, does the quality of it go down as men age?

Yes, it does:

I too have to disagree- as much as I believe that society shouldn't dictate when a woman wants to have kids, there's just too many reasons not to have kids that old- your health, the kid's health, the fact that you could be dead by the time the kid is 15 (or earlier!) and the fact that it just perpetuates this "women are baby-making machines" idea- like, to prove how long women can continue having kids. It just seems selfish on the mother's part and more of a "look what I can do!" (say that like the Stuart character on MAD TV!) kind of thing rather than accepting the fact that you're old (NOT that 60 is old....just old for having kids.) Seems like a baby-boomer thing to do, refusing to accept that fact. Plus, it's just too much interference with science. And that's not to say I think in vitro in general (ha, nice word play!) is too much science, I just think in this case it was.

Plus, nickclick, you said it yourself- there are too many accidental, unwanted, or unable-to-be-cared-for babies are born every day- if she really has as much energy as she says she does, why doesn't she adopt or at least foster some of them?? blink.gif
dj-bizmonkey, that is horrific. sad.gif I hadn't heard about it either, but I also hadn't heard about the postage stamp increase...
Wow, I keep up with the news and I hadn't heard about this. Is there a letter-writing campaign or anything going on to get them to prosecute. That's just nauseating.
I just don't agree with reproducing past a certain age. If the sperm isn't that great and the woman had to go through the trouble of in vitro fertilization just to get pregnant it just seems a bit ridiculous. I'm all for people having kids, but there's a reason that women get menopause and stop having their periods.

As for that rape case, I think it's just disgusting. I can't think of a single reason that they wouldn't want to prosecute, especially now that those two women are speaking up.
I read about the rape case on feministing. Fuck's sake, they have witnesses.

As for the older-woman having in-vitro just to have a kid... I think it is selfish. Yes, she might be full of life now. So was my grandmother at sixty, when I was a kid. Fifteen years later, she walks with a stick and has an automatic ambulance alarm fitted in the house. Ok, she's capable of looking after herself, she's not in terrible shape, just slow, but she could not look after a teenager full-time.

I'm with the idea of adoption, or fostering - especially fostering, there are so many older kids (ie not babies) who could do with a stable home. So many people seem to have this block that an adopted kid is not really "your child". Surely the people who raised you and loved you are your parents - whether or not you're genetically related.
anna k
I remember Laura Kightlinger making jokes about women who have babies in-vitro or with drugs as calling their kids "a sign fron God." Laura's joke was that maybe the fact that they couldn't have kids was God's sign, that their family line should be phased out.

A 60-year old woman using drugs to have kids, and ending up with four-pound twins? Yeah, that's healthy.
Yeah, I mean, I want to have children someday but if I can't do it without going through the trouble of drugs and in vitro fertilization then I will look into adoption. There are so many children out there who need homes anyway.
I have to agree with the somewhat physically imposed age limits to having children...I'm going through that with my mom..she is 77 with alzheimers's gotten now to the point where she needs to go into assisted living. But she started developing it at about 72. And to think of a 12 year old being saddled with that!

Aging is a fact of life. Until we truly find that fountain of youth, I agree...we should honor menopause for the rite of passage that it is. It seems that menopause is vilified and something people are loathe to "honor", and will go to drug and hormone treatment...and childbearing extremes to deny it...but, to me...I'm looking forward to taking that next title of "womanhood"...that of the crone.
yes, giving birth at 60 wouldn't be my choice either. but where's the news tsk-tsk-ing daddies at 60???? they too get old and sick to be parents too! that's my beef.

I don't agree with old dads either. If the parents are old who knows how long they'll be able to care for their children.
QUOTE(nickclick @ May 29 2007, 10:38 AM) *
yes, giving birth at 60 wouldn't be my choice either. but where's the news tsk-tsk-ing daddies at 60???? they too get old and sick to be parents too! that's my beef.

There was a really great article (okay, not "great" so much as revealing of some selfish-ass old guys) in the NY times about a month ago about "Start Over Dads" who were having kids much later in life. They were reflecting how they were irresponsible when they were younger, or they were so focused on their careers that they didn't pay any attention to their wives or children. So now that they're older (some with new wives), they can have children now and appreciate everything, and they're more relaxed about life. A lot of them acknowledged that they probably won't be able to walk their children down the aisles, or that their goal is just to see their children graduate from high school. And they fully acknowledge that it's selfish, but that's what they want. Ugh.

I remember my grandpa was really strong and active, and within a matter of a couple of weeks his kidneys gave out and he had to start dialysis and was always weak, then more and more health problems came along and he was never really the same. It just happens so fast. I know a lot of people can be healthy in their old age, but in reality, a lot more people aren't. I feel sorry for those kids.
Starbucks barista Christina Rosevear and her 19 month-old daughter need
your help now. Christina recently learned that she was pregnant with her
second child and she promptly informed the store manager at the Northern California
Starbucks where she works. Instead of being considerate of Christina's pregnancy,
Starbucks began to discriminate against her.

Christina developed severe morning sickness and needed to take the
occasional day off. On several occasions after she took a day off, she'd find that
her work hours would be cut the following week depriving her of much needed
income. Sometimes she'd receive as little as four hours of work per week! As a
single mom and a low-wage worker, Christina can't afford such a dramatic pay
cut. Things only got worse and now Christina is facing the prospect of an
unjust termination.

Christina's doctor ordered her to take time off work to deal with a
pregnancy-related back ailment that may be connected to heavy lifting
at Starbucks. When Christina was ready to come back to work, the store
manager warned that he might fire her for being away from the job. Christina
has a meeting coming up with the manager and it's critical that Starbucks
hear from people of conscience now that discriminating against someone for a
pregnancy or illness is wrong.

Instead of being brushed under the rug like so many retail workers are
everyday, Christina has chosen to fight back and has joined the
Starbucks Workers Union []. In her own words, "I need some help
because I refuse to let a big corporation like Starbucks push me around."

Please lend a hand and stand by Christina as she fights this abuse from
Starbucks: Take a moment to participate in this e-mail action demanding
that Starbucks not fire Christina and immediately cease discriminating
against her.
something to be said for old parents of both genders, and 'natural' limitations on creating progeny. i would like to say that adoption is a better option, but unfortunately in alot of places it takes more time, money, and emotional stress to adopt a child than it does to go through fertility treatment. it's totally fucked.
QUOTE(dj-bizmonkey @ Jun 8 2007, 12:17 AM) *
something to be said for old parents of both genders, and 'natural' limitations on creating progeny. i would like to say that adoption is a better option, but unfortunately in alot of places it takes more time, money, and emotional stress to adopt a child than it does to go through fertility treatment. it's totally fucked.

There is so much more truth in your last sentence than most people realize. Not only do the fees to the agency/lawyer go through the roof, but in addition, the adoptive family is supposed to provide living expenses for the birth mother if necessary, provide all medical expenses (unless the birth mother is medicaid eligible), and for all that, the birth mother can change her mind up to 6 months after the baby is born (time depends on what state you live in, I'm speaking of Indiana), and doesn't have to reimburse ANY of the adoption expenses incurred by the adoptive family, who is now back at square one.

Almost forgot. If the birth mother does not know or won't disclose the biological father's name, and he later finds out about it, so sorry to the adoptive family, but he never signed away his parental rights, likely making the adoption null & void (if the child is still very young).

On another note, I won't even get started on Child Protective Services and how little they are actually willing to do. Does my neice test positive for cocaine at birth? check. Does my sister in law also test positive? Check. Have they done anything at all about it other than talk to her? nope. She now has two beautiful children that she is incapable of taking care of, but refuses to let someone in the family take them while she gets her shit straightened out. Why? Because she gets money for having custody of them. Why will I not help her out other than taking her kids? Tried that, and for my efforts had over $1000 worth of shit stolen from me, as has anyone else that took her in.
well, the flipside to the adoption process hoosierman described would be to limit the birth mother's choices and decisions and freedom to change them. while i agree those are expensive and timely and frustrating risks for adoptive parents, i don't want women to become more the baby factories we're already seen. the compromise would be for the state to incur some of those costs, so adoptions would be more encouraged.

again, more money from the state would run a more efficient child protection agency, where mothers who can't care for their kids are differentiated from those who once did drugs but are now willing and able parents. i just get protective of women's rights to make mistakes in the past and be forgiven, and not be villified forever as 'bad mothers' especially when the planet is overrun with deadbeat dads.

but, for bush and his supporters' claims of being pro-family, pro-life and all that bullshit, we know where the govt's money goes..... war.
Hello, I find it slightly ironic that everyone gets their knickers in a knot about a 18 year old mother and then that same person is perfectly content with a 60 year old mom. I mean the 18 year old will be more likely to stay alive to raise the kid and they will have the energy to chase them around. People argue that you can't support a child at such a young age but you can't very well support a child when you're dead, or in a nursing home...
questions here

I just registered for this forum, but when I try to post a new topic, it tells me that that option is not available, do I need to post some replies before it would let me start an original topic or something?

The reason I ended up here is by following a reference from feminista blog ( where people were ripping on the recent article from this magazine about privileged women partaking in the sex industry in the underdeveloped countries from the perspective of women as active consumers. I just wanted to see what the original article actually said, does anybody have any links or any idea what I am talking about?

QUOTE(josje @ Jun 15 2007, 01:41 PM) *
Hello, I find it slightly ironic that everyone gets their knickers in a knot about a 18 year old mother and then that same person is perfectly content with a 60 year old mom. I mean the 18 year old will be more likely to stay alive to raise the kid and they will have the energy to chase them around. People argue that you can't support a child at such a young age but you can't very well support a child when you're dead, or in a nursing home...

Yes, you have to be posting for awhile before you can make a new thread.

The article you are looking for was in the Travel edition of Bust, not the most recent one but the one before that. I don't know that it is posted on-line anywhere.
I wasn't sure if this would be best in here or the Sizism thread so I think I'll post it in both. I was reading one of the headlines from an online ad magazine that I'm subscribed to and one of the headlines was "Ads Say Men Don't Like Large Women". To sum up the article, some yogurt company in Brazil substituted fat women in sexy movie roles. Then at the end of it the ad says "Forget about it. Men's preference will never change. Fit Light Yogurt."


anyhoo, here's the article, I think you can read it without being a subscriber.

stupid brazilian yogurt ad
get this one:

Judge bans the word 'rape'...during a rape case.
Also banned are the words sexual assault, victim, assailant, and sexual assault kit.

AND--yes, there's more--the word the victim must use to describe the ordeal is SEX. what. the. fuck? the thought of it makes my skin crawl.
Wow!! That seriously disgusts me....I think the closing comment 'If we're banned from calling it 'rape' in the courtroom, when will we stop calling it 'rape' in our lives?' sums it up very well.
I am so mad about this I can't even think clearly. And I can barely type I am shaking so bad.
so i woke up to this on the letters to the editor page this morning.

"Women should dress more modestly

We have had enough of deep cleavage and its extension into the breasts! We know that it is stylish and that females have their freedom to dress as they wish. The cleavage-exposure-plus style of women of the nation has gone too far.

We are happy for them that they have good figures, and have a right to be proud of them. But we don't need to see it. The fashion designers have seduced today's females into embracing revealing styles that rob them of both their self-respect and the greater beauty of modesty."

sounds like a couple of kooky older ladies, nothing too offensive. then i get to the end of the letter.

"Why blame men for lust and rape when their sensibilities are being constantly bombarded by the sight of underdressed women flaunting their flesh?"

yeah, that thud you just heard was my jaw hitting the floor. i had no idea this "she was asking for it" idea was still so damned prevalent. and locally too, that's just scary. here's what i emailed off to the editor in reply:

"I could not believe my eyes when I opened up the opinion page this morning. Did J. Carlyle and Janet G. Parker really suggest that if women didn't dress so immodestly, men wouldn't be tempted to rape them?! I can't believe that old "well, she must have been asking for it" attitude still exists in this day and age. Rape is not about lust and attractiveness, it's about power and violence. No woman is ever asking for the trauma of that kind of violation. I certainly wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I have to wonder how J. Carlyle's and Janet Parker's perspective would change if they or one of their female family members were the victims of such a brutal assault. As a woman and a feminist, I am disgusted and appalled by both of them. I would suggest that they spend some time volunteering at their local rape crisis center, and ask those women how many of them were asking for it by way of "insufficient modesty".
For a good perspective on how our society treats victims of rape as opposed to victims of other crimes, readers should check out "The Rape of Mr. Smith" at [which was just the clearest result that came up on google without graphics or a bunch of other stuff on the page] It's an eye-opening scenario on how victims of rape are treated by our society as opposed to victims of other crimes."
I know I've never posted in this thread yet but I was just reading it at work during my break and I had to say something. I understand your disgust with the authors of this article and I also cannot believe that they would suggest something so ludicrous, especially in a newspaper.

Although, I know people do believe those batshit ideas. When I was in high school (I graduated only 5 years ago), there was a girl who said something along the same lines of this article, only she said, "Well, if a girl is at a party and gets super drunk and goes upstairs with a guy she's just asking to get raped. She deserves what she gets." This girl was probably one of the top students in my school and I could not believe the words that came out of her mouth. *AND* we were sitting in a special class with a sexual health nurse who came in to talk to the class specifically about date rape. My best friend and I (a guy), immediately jumped all over her, telling her that obviously she had never been drunk or disoriented before and had no idea what it was like to have an altered perception (she confirmed that she had never had a drink in her life) and that NO WOMAN, NO MATTER WHAT deserves to be raped, ever. She was quite taken aback, but he and I could not believe her audacity. We didn't talk to her for the rest of high school. I definitely lost respect for her after that.

I'm glad that you wrote to the editor of the newspaper, grrrl. I just hope they print your response and disgust because I would not be surprised if they don't, sadly. I cannot ever believe that rape is still such a blasé issue in society these days. Maybe if men were the ones being raped by women, there would be more action against it (although that would not be condonable either).
I remember reading a review of the book "Return to Modesty" or something along those lines, where the reviewer pointed out that what the author was suggesting was a repeal of some major victories of feminism and returning women to a position of sexual objects and male possessions, which would only increase the incidences of violence and brutality towards them. While those women in their horrible letter are probably assured that they have the best intentions for women in mind, they are overlooking a crucial factor in their analysis. Women are instructed by society to be sexual and attractive and then they are blamed for any negative consequences. The truly tragic part is that without any critical framework within which to understand their position, women can actually become convinced that if they are raped its their own fault, and other women, instead of fighting for them, will simply nod in agreement! I am so saddened by this type of thinking. Women do not need to be told to button their shirts to avoid sexual violence, they should be tearing down the system that makes it possible, and worse yet, acceptable.
I whole heartedly agree with you, dolla. This kind of talk kind of reminds me of The Handmaid's Tale (I only saw the movie, never read the book) where a girl says she was raped and all of the other women say it was her fault, over and over again.

I especially liked that you point out that our society is constantly telling us to be sexy and attractive but if a woman gets raped, oh, well, she must have been dressing to sexy and of course men just can't control themselves. Ugh!
okay, i spent the first couple days scanning my paper every morning to see if my or anyone else's letter on this would be published, and after a few days i said "meh, didn't expect them to actually publish it anyway, saying the writers disgusted me and maybe they should be raped and all that" (which is how i figure our conservative small-town not-quite bible-belt-but-close-enough locals would have taken it) and kinda forgot about it. but they did publish it finally yesterday morning along with a few others, all of them unequivocally focusing on the "women get raped because they dress like sluts" part of the original, and calling the writers dumbasses. you know, in newspaper-appropriate language. mine was the longest, and it was published in full, no editing. and now that you've reminded me of it, i'm going to wander over to the paper's community boards and see what, if anything, is being said.

but yeah, i feel good about speaking up, and being "heard", so to speak.
Wow, grrrl, I'm very impressed that they published not only your letter to the editor, but others as well. At least the writers should know now that people are displeased with their story.

Good on you for writing them!
grrrl, you rock my world. congrats on the publication, more people need to speak out against the crazies
Grrrl congratulations on the letter!

dolla and candy I couldn't agree more with what you are saying.
Hey grrl; if you have your news' website, is there a link we can check it out at?
grrrl, congrats on the letter! I wish we could see an actual scan of the newspaper. I'm so glad they put it in!
congrats on the letter! smile.gif

okay, i don't think this is quite feminist "outrage" but i didn't know where else to put it. it's...weird.
Nepal 'living goddess' loses status

also, what do you think of this? pregnant mothers "ask for it" by wearing certain maternity clothes that invites people to touch their bellies? ugh.
well gee, thanks everybody! happy.gif i'm blushing here, cause as asinine as the original letter writers were, it wasn't that big a deal or difficult to take their dumb asses down a peg or two.

for those of you asking, the newspaper publishes most of (if not all, i dunno, i don't go to the website that often) it's print edition online, but after a while things go to archives. i'm a subscriber to the hard copy, and i'm not even sure how to get into them online. unfortunately i ended up throwing that day's paper away even though i made a note to keep that section. the paper does have a reprint service though, so i'm going to ask my carrier about getting a copy of that day's opinion page, and the one that the original letter ran in, if i can remember the date. when i get 'em, i'll see about scanning them in.
as for the newspaper site or forum, well, i'd be pretty damned embarrassed for you guys to see the kind of ignorance running rampant in my local area. the forums are literally nothing but a regular group of asshat redneck racists bitching about illegal immigration and why can't they have white history month etc. and i live a block away from a california state university campus in an agricultural area that depends on the exploitation of "beaner babies" and "wetbacks" so bubba can get his .57 a pound tomatoes at his local raleys. it's so humiliating to be associated with people like that, if only by a shared geographical residence. mad.gif
faerietails, that pregnancy thing is ridiculous! How exactly is one supposed to hide a pregnant belly?! I thought maternity clothes were designed for comfort not for "advertising protruding bellies". And a pregnant belly is just that; protruding!

I also heard that thing about the goddess while listening to NPR a few days ago. It was quite interesting.
the pregnant belly this is so silly - while it might be lucky etc in some cultures, surely it's still polite to ask. and pregnant bellies aren't exactly easy to hide

yay grrrl!

*sigh* they're cutting funding to the rape crisis centers over here, despite the increased number of women going.
This is absolutely horrific.
anna k
That is unreal and disgusting and horrible. Now that's going to be in my head.
What upsets me most about that is that Walker's lawyer entering a not guilty plea on behalf of his client essentially forces a trial. I know the lawyer's just doing his job -- and God forbid the kid is actually not guilty, a la the Duke lacrosse rape case -- but don't you think anyone with a shred of decency would want to spare the mother and son having to sit through a trial? I'm not even going to think about what if the mom and/or son has to testify...
Those recenting stories are gut-wrenching.

Someone brought this to my attention cuz they thought it was funny,: ..and while it is hard to take seriously,...I hope people that are prone to homophobic hysteria will look deeper into this "story" and see that these "gangs" are simply defending themselves.
am currently fighting with an electrician company - because they overcharged me because i'm a girl - it's obvious because i had another electrician come out the next day, look at the same thing, and was able to fix it. thank goodness for prepaid legal services inc!
polly, that is fucking sick. the woman "intentionally" drummed up publicity?


and as far as biasing the jury??? with the word RAPE in a RAPE trial???
what next, is a murder trial is going to be "the incident where the defendent grazed the other person with a hard ovoid metallic object causing exaguination incompatible with life"?

my god. sometimes i wonder.

i was going to come in here and bitch about the VA Hospital where I repeatedly get stared at and approached inappropriately* by old men despite that fact that i'm a professional... but now it just seems sort of trite.

*(which reminds me of an orientation to said VA not too many moons ago where i, the only female in the room, was warned that the patients would be inappropriate toward females, yet said to me with the underlying context of "well, they're old men and that's what they've always known, so cut 'em some slack.")
Here is a chance for more activism in the trial that pollu posted (cross-posted in the "midwestern mamas" thread...

Here is a great opportunity for activism! Angela Rose (PAVE), organized a protest about the case in Nebraska in which the judge is preventing the victim and the prosecutors from using certain words like “rape” and “victim” during court proceedings (see news coverage links attached). Angela is encouraging local rape crisis centers and state coalitions across the nation to join the protest with action at Noon on Tuesday, July 17. PAVE joined forces in Lincoln, NE with local organizations as well as the New York based It Happened to Alexa Foundation. National judicial activist, Wendy Murphy, filed petitions in the NE Supreme Court this morning in the case of the couragous victim, Tory Bowen, who refused to sign a court order that banned her free speech on the witness stand. Tory, who was raped by a stranger with two prior arrests, might be held in contempt of court and could potentially go to jail.

We need your help for an emergency action Tuesday, 07/17 at noon in YOUR community to recreate this action! We need YOU to join us.

Tuesday, 7/17/07 - Noon - Nationwide - At YOUR Capitol Building or City Hall - Participants to bring bandanas or something to cover their mouths and poster board with the words written that she was banned from saying (ie. Rape Kit, Sexual Assault, Rape, Date Rape Drugs, Sexual Assault Nurse Examiner)

We demand FREE SPEECH for survivors in the courtroom! Don't miss being a part of a landmark Supreme Court case and National action...

WE NEED YOU! Email us to coordinate one in YOUR town. Email for complete instructions:

We need your help to protest this judge’s decision. Bring a scarf or tape for your mouth (to protest the silencing of rape victims) and a sign to carry.
A guy I slept with last night said (afterward) that he thought it was ok to have sex with a partner/girlfriend while she was sleeping.
I left in disgust and felt really fucked up about thet fact that I had yet again picked a complete loser.And in a masochistic way,Im still talking to him on MSN.I call myself a feminist but I'm losing out because I'm so lonely.I'm willing to cash
in my beliefs for a little bit of company.No matter what type. That's feminist outrage.
Guys who spend $$$ on life-size rubber sex dolls (45 min creeptastic video). via. I'm not sure if I'm outraged about this though as it's probably a damn good thing that these guys are taking themselves out of circulation (well I guess the guy who dated "Jody" didn't, did he!). Mostly this creeps me right the fuck out.

kittenb - how'd the protest go?

datagirl - don't be too hard on yourself. Any chance he'll learn something from chatting with you? After all, the world won't change faster if the only guys we talk to are the already enlightened, sensitive ones.

Funny - I like the idea of my sweetie fucking me when I'm sleeping, but no matter how many times I encourage him ("So honey if you wake up horny in the middle of the night, go to it, please! Please? Pleeeease?") he can't bring himself to. He feels it's wrong. I'm like, "But you've got my consent, so...?" I'll just have to keep working on him.
The whole fucking while sleeping thing is quite interesting. I was reading the Dan Savage column where someone actually asked about how to sleep with his girlfriend while she was sleeping. She had given the boyfriend permission but when she was actually sleeping she would push him away. Savage suggested that she take an ambien so that she wouldn't push the boyfriend away in her sleep. What I thought was interesting though was his response to a woman who wrote and said that what the boyfriend was doing is rape. I'd have to side with Dan Savage on this one, how could it be rape if the girlfriend has given her boyfriend permission to have sex with her even if she's asleep?
The idea of someone having sex with me while I slept freaks me out. I know that I will never consent to that (never say never?) However, the guy in questions did ask his wife first and she said yes. Just because a practice is repulsive to me does not mean that no one else may find it to be a great idea.
That being said, I have know cases where people have had sex with their partners or performed other sexual acts and the act was clearly an abuse of power and/or rape. So I guess it would be a tricky line that should be negotiated b/w partners before it is attempted.
I agree with Dan on this one to. It is a really bad idea to define someone else's experience for them. We are trained to never do that at my job. We don't call it rape unless the person we are speaking to does.
Did anyone read this ridiculous piece by Hilary Duff? I found it via feministing and it's unbelievable.,00.html
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