Oct 2 2006, 07:54 PM
its in texas not denver, which isnt surprising really considering that you usually get the lowest of the low and the dumbest of the dumbest from TX. ahem george bush.
i am just kidding but seriously, how bad does this society have to get before people wake up and realize they are living in Lois Lowry's The Giver or The Handmaids Tale?
Oct 2 2006, 08:54 PM
oh. my. gawd.
a Nude sculpture? in the museum?! No WAY!!
chacha "extremely attractive"? wha...??? that dude is the crustiest ole bastid going on prime time. as ugly on the outside as he is on the inside, IMHO. uck.
i am scared, scared, scared about the daycare situation and everything else that affects women and kids in this country. what the hell, how does taking all that funding away from social programs really make a dent in the national debt? 'specially if they're just gonna give it back to themselves as a salary increase.
Oct 2 2006, 10:39 PM
Wow. Well its good to know the people of Texas are concerned with the important issues of the day... nudes in an art museum::chokes on sarcasm::. I wonder how the parent(s) would have felt if it was an extremely violent image instead, such as a graphic depiction of war? Would that be acceptable so long as the warriors werent nude?
What a sad, sad world we live in.
Oct 3 2006, 03:06 AM
Pepper, I'm a big fool for men who are tall, slim, and often blue eyed, and let's just say, of a certain age. It's so idiotic, I know. But it just is.
Point is, though, I'm not the only one: and I think part of the manipulation of that character's reality is based on physical attractiveness and a history of comedic acting juxtaposed on this utterly repulsive character. Toss in "god-like status and privilege" as a given and you're very likely going to feel like House is your hero.
It's amazing the kind of criminality he's portrayed committing--and how people react to the character regardless. I'm talking about how viewers respond to his character--as well as the other characters in the show. It's an impressive mind-fuck.
And, yes, bad inside and out, as a result.
I'm not surprised by peoples' prudishness anymore--whether it's in Texas or right in my own backyard, there's never been any shortage of it. A school that hires an art teacher who creates a great art program--then fires her for doing her job because an ignoramus complained that his child saw a nude in a gallery...this is old news everywhere. You'd think people would like their children to see at least one nude image, somewhere in the bombardment of nude images they're shown every minute of their lives, with which doesn't exist simply to sell cars, or cigarettes, or playstation games. You know, just for a change.
Oct 3 2006, 07:25 AM
Okay, this just in -- for the second time in as many WEEKS, a full-grown adult man has gone and shot up a school, and he has singled out the girls, and he has molested them first. And this time, in Amish country.
And then they kill themselves -- isn't that charming.
Why were they not kept out of the school? And why do they think they are entitled to punish females for everything they don't like in life? This is like lynching. It makes me sick.
And while I'm at it, I may as well confess that all these terribly popular, "aren't the characters *sex-ay" television shows full of corpses and surgeries and other gore disgust me too.
House, CSI and what the fuck ever.
Look at this cute guy/girl and flash to the rotting bloody body!
What the hell is wrong with people?
Oct 3 2006, 07:34 AM
we like witty and intelligent tv with "extremely attractive" men.
has it been released yet that he molested the girls? not in any news resports I've read (BBC). Yes, I imagine he subjected them to a terrifying ordeal by tying them up and then killing some of them execution style but let's not jump to conclusions. yes, it's outrageous that he singled out the girls but that doesn't mean it was an act of sexual depravity.
Oct 3 2006, 07:50 AM
Yes, more academic dissection is needed.
In these dissections, we will always find that no privileged person or class can ever be blamed for anything that goes wrong.
Therefore, men have the privlege to treat the bodies of their inferiors however they like, schools are not responsible for the safety of the children, and the upper-class males (with one or two token women) that profit from feeding us mass-market garbage on television can blame us for viewing it.
The applications are endless! Yes, bunny_b, I'm being simply *foolish*!!
Global warming? But scientists disagree. The big whole in the ozone over Australia? Well, there aren't any very* important* people living there.
The trade in luxuries from China did *NOT* bring about the black plague! It *wasn't* fleas from black rats which swarmed off the ships! Mass diseases not endemic to the population simply HAPPEN from time to time. We know this because we are biologists with many years of expensive schooling! There is absolutely no need to hobble the current day ruling class profits by inspecting containerized cargo for hostile biological matter! Even though one was not even allowed to bring vegetables or plants accross national borders when traveling, a mere two decades ago!
Making carved up and dead bodies erotic and glamorous has absolutely no effect on people! Not even upon disturbed people! Where is the STUDY that would conclusively prove over decades that necrphilia is in any way a social problem?
Oct 3 2006, 07:54 AM
um, perhaps we could have had a discussion if we had stayed on topic.
Oct 3 2006, 08:48 AM
I haven't read anything about him sexually molesting the girls either. I've read that he lined them up against the blackboard and tied their feet, but no sexual molestation reports have surfaced.
And I think it's really unfair to say that academic dissections always let the privileged classes off the hook or to imply that the school had responsibility in this attack. I think this is kind of an exception to the rule because this wasn't an urban/suburban school. It was in a community where people don't even lock their doors because the crime rate is practically nonexistent. It's a community where life goes at a completely different pace and one would never have conceived such a thing happening. The victims were 6-13 years old, yet they were all inside the same one-room schoolhouse. You can hardly view a rural Amish schoolhouse as being The Man.
Oct 3 2006, 09:15 AM
True enough about the Amish community not locking their doors -- I suppose -- but two school incidents in which adult males target girls -- whether or not the man in the Amish community specifically molested them, and whether we can prove this, I don't think we need to wait for proof to see that it has a sexual component.
I am also not suggesting that we ban popular TV shows like CSI. I'm not eager to be lumped in with fundamentalists who try to burn heavy metal albums.
These were two separate but somewhat related rants in the "feminist rant" thread.
No, academic dissections do not always excuse abuses by the ruling class of the day, faerietails, true enough.
I listed the ones that *have* attempted to do so recently -- I read an article casting doubt on the origins of the black plague a few years ago, and the application of that doubt to the current state of shipping, globalization, trade with China, AIDS and who profits and at what cost, was transparent to me. "We're overdue for an epidemic! And they come from such mysterious sources! And there's nothing we can do about it! Why, even the plague... we no longer think ... etc." I read that, I didn't just imagine that it exists.
That was prompted by bunny_b's pompous dismissal of my first post. And now, more pompous dismissal.
I'm not discouraged by dismissive backhand swipes.
I'm right. I promptly admit it.
Oct 3 2006, 09:40 AM
pompous dismissal? I was asking where you had heard he had molested the girls, wombat.
You are not right, how on God's green earth do YOU know that he molested those girls?
Take that as a dismissive, backhand swipe.
Oct 3 2006, 10:12 AM
Schools ought to be safer...but honestly, without making them into virtual prisons, I don't know how we are ever goign to keep intruders out. Mr. Pixie is a school teacher at an innercity high school. They have regular Intruder on campus drills....so does my 4 y/o's pre K class. But after the shooting last week a local news team decided to see how easy it was to get on campus. One school they walked right through the front door. At another school they found an emergency exit door had been propped open by students who were cutting class. Unfortunately fire codes prevent schools from totally locking the doors to keep the outside world out. It is really scarey. This stuff didn't seem to happen when I was in school.
Oct 3 2006, 10:24 AM
Shooter admits molesting girl relatives 20 years ago that's what happened when he was 12 years old, to say that he dreamt of doing it again suggests that he planned to kill himself to prevent him from doing it; maybe he killed the girls in some warped way of protecting them from people like himself? or to blot out the innocence of them as he did his relatives? who knows what goes on in a murderer's mind. He didn't have time to molest those girls, maybe he was planning to.
Oct 3 2006, 10:32 AM
hey all, i'm outraged about representative foley who sent sexual emails to his young teen interns-check out the "not without a fight" activism thread to send a letter and request that the House leader be ousted, since he knew about this and did nothing.....
Oct 3 2006, 11:39 AM
This is a very, very icky detail, but the Amish school gunman had two tubes of lube with him, according to the BBChttp://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5404144.stm
A very very sick man.
Oct 3 2006, 11:58 AM
wow, yeah very sick. it's weird to me that none of his supposed victims even remember him abusing them- i wonder if we'll get more details about that later, like will the victims now remember? or was he just very confused about what was real and what was his fantasy? very scary.
what's up with the last week or so and the school violence? dang. makes me feel so sad
Oct 3 2006, 01:00 PM
Because, to me it is very obvious, and CAN safely be assumed, that if a gunman tells adults and boys to leave and keeps only the girls and then kills them, that there is a sexual and necrophiliac element to his raid of the school, and you seemed to be telling me that we could never know this unless the BBC said it.
In other words, my observation of the facts is not enough because I am not an authority.
That INSTANT response serves to discredit and dismiss me, and that happens in many, many cases when people try to speak up.
I do appreciate and recognize your intelligence and well-balanced, pleasant presence here on the board and I don't mean to slight you personally, bunny_b, I enjoy your posts and your presence very much.
It's just that response to a post of feminist outrage - "Let's wait until the authority weighs in on it." that affected me.
We're probably miscommunicating a bit -- I'm misinterpreting what you said -- you only meant that you wanted to know all the details to see what the full scope of it was.
In these disturbing situations, to react strongly and miscommunicate is easy to do.
Oct 3 2006, 01:09 PM
That really is a horrible story and the more it unfolds the worse it seems to get. I agree with Maddy that it is strange that neither of his victims remember that he abused them.. could be repressed memory or it could be (like maddy said) that the man cant distinguish fantasy from reality. At any rate i really feel for all the families involved and for all the girls who did survive and are now going to be traumatized for the rest of their lives.
Sorry i dont have more to add the conversation.
Oct 3 2006, 01:51 PM
True wombat, things can be misconstrued. I am not saying that because the BBC didn't say it, it isn't worth saying but what you said came across as an actual fact rather than an observation of the facts. It's obvious that you're not an authority on the story because you weren't there/aren't investigating/speaking to those who were/are.
We can all express opinions here, that is what this community is for but when something is presented as being categoricaly the truth then I am going to question the source. I like being aware of all of the information at hand before I objectively make a decision. All I know is that the events as they are unfolding are far reaching a tragic.
Thanks for your level-headed last post.
Oct 3 2006, 03:35 PM
This afternoon I heard that the gunman left a number of notes for his wife in which he wrote that he had molested children in his family 20 years ago and he felt he was going to do so again. He had apparently stocked up on items for this raid--wire twine to tie the children up with, etc. etc. His wife found the notes and called his cell phone. Apparently he just left home that morning as he had always done, so nothing seemed out of the ordinary until the notes were found, and by then he was already in the school and he told his wife he would not be coming home ever.
Apparently he was interrupted in his attempts to carry out his plan--no one knows how this happened but there is speculation that he simply couldn't carry it out (the phone call, remorse, whatever). So he decided to shoot his victims instead because he was "angry with himself" and "angry with god". Apparently he and his wife lost a baby daughter just after she was born a number of years ago and this was to be his "revenge on god."
Apparently, 10 Amish families will be directly affected by this, as only 10 families attended that school (the schools were deliberately small scale, community oriented: children of various ages study together so they often go to school with their siblings. That would have meant, horribly, that brothers were forced to leave their little sisters behind in that classroom with their killer). Imagine the devastation of all the survivors in that community.
Obviously a very demented, extremely sick man; and a horrible story.
Oct 3 2006, 04:17 PM
I hate this. I hate violence, I hate people shooting each other and all this senseless bullshit. I just finished reading an Esquire article about a soldier who is MIA and possibly dead, and his family has built this shrine to him in their hometown and he fits the model of a "good ole American boy." I hate the Iraq war, I hate global warming, I hate racism, I hate the Bush administration, and I hate all this bullshit that tears the world apart.
My mom once led a bike group through Pennslyvania in the 1970s, and they stayed overnight in Amish country. She said some were nice, though others preferred not to speak to the travelers, keeping their distance.
Oct 4 2006, 07:56 AM
i am amazed how his wife who he's been married to for 10 years didnt see ANY of this coming. not a single bit of it. is it possible that someone can be so insane and depraved that no one he knows notices that hes totally off his rocker?
Oct 4 2006, 09:19 AM
I think it can easily be possible. We don't know enough about mental illness to say what's common or not in any particular type of illness with any kind of certainty, but it could be very possible that people knew this man to be very serious (say, after the death of his child a few years ago) and simply assume he was still in deep mourning, or "never the same" after that trauma. If he did actually molest people 20 years ago, and no one's ever brought it up to anyone else in his family (or it was forgotten, or maybe it never really happened), then it's possible he's never shown any kind of behaviour to lead anyone to believe that's what he's done in the past, so no one would simply come to that conclusion about him. Also, its not unusual for couples who've suffered the loss of a child to see the other as grieving and out of reach--and often couples never get over the death of a child. Perhaps his wife was also too emotionally wounded to notice how much her husband had changed.
Anyway, despite what people say about his past and what could have led to this crime, please let us not forget how delusional his entire act--from planning to execution--actually was. We don't know if he was being treated for mental illness or not--for all we know he could have been suffering from the effects of medication in carrying this out. I'm not saying he should be "let off the hook"--all I'm merely saying is that he was extremely sick, and his disease was definitely the motivation behind this act; he wasn't thinking rationally or realistically at all. It's possible his "confession" about molesting people in the past could have been part of that delusion, we don't know. Yes, it's pretty horrible this guy "slipped" and seemingly went unnoticed by those around him as he became sicker and sicker, but I think many people who need help this way also go unnoticed all the time.
Oct 4 2006, 09:34 AM
thats my point though, if hes been normal up until recently i just think its so weird that he descended into madness so quickly and his wife didnt notice. i dont think he's on medication i think that would have been mentioned in the news reports. maybe no though. they have other kids though right? maybe she was just too busy going about her normal every day life.
Oct 4 2006, 09:42 AM
I don't think that you meant that it's the wife's fault, katiebelle, but it does read that way in saying she was too busy to notice her husband's derangement. Maybe he just snapped; he certainly seemed to have been able to behave perfectly "normally", he took his children to school in the morning after writing suicide notes to them.
Oct 4 2006, 09:48 AM
what's up with 3 school shootings in a week? i agree with anna, i'm so tired of all this awfulness, and violence and scariness. just ALL of it.
Oct 4 2006, 10:26 AM
no i didnt mean that of course its not her fault. i am saying that when you get caught up in your everyday life it can be hard to notice things like that if indeed he was exhibiting signs. i think i read somewhere that he had stopped talking and joking around at work (of course that could have been one of the other people who shot up schools this past week). or he could have been in just a bad mood.
but i dont know, he molested people before (not that she knew) so something tells me this wasnt just a random snap and the guy had to be a little off. but we dont know how mental illness works so its possible he went through phases.
Oct 4 2006, 10:43 AM
totally off topic but CHECK OUT what fox news did last night. THREE different times at the bottom of the screen when reporting on foley they LABELLED him a DEMOCRAT!!!!!
hes a freaking republican!http://www.bradblog.com/?p=3570
Oct 4 2006, 11:30 AM
Oh, come on, KB, you know that only Democrats have sex!
Oct 4 2006, 11:43 AM
Re the rest of the discussion:
I'm sorry to say that the wife, the family, and everyone dealing with him probably knew he was sick and could not do anything about it. Legally, you can't act against a person to put them in a jail or a mental hospital or even put on restraining order, until they actually become violent and usually only after they have become so repeatedly and after a long battle with evidence and witnesses and lawyers etc.
Also, I'm not sure how the amish are on medicine, but they may not have even believed in psychiatry or medication. And finally, even if they did, they may not have been able to afford it, and besides that, it is not just some sort of magic that will make the person okay.
Most likely, his wife and family were forced to be the ones to try to restrain him and follow him around, other people didn't want to deal with it, and they just lived hellishly repressed lives tiptoeing around, praying he wouldn't do anything.
So after they served years and years of a virtual prison term locked up with the dangerous prisoner, they finally lost their bet and now they suffer from scandal and loss of income and god knows what.
Yeah, why didn't the wife just notice and give him pills cause we're all so enlightened. Right. Where do the guys who get sent off somewhere go? Right back home. You really wouldn't want to sign up for that.
Oct 4 2006, 11:56 AM
QUOTE(wombat @ Oct 4 2006, 07:00 PM)
He wasn't Amish.
Also, I'm not sure how the amish are on medicine, but they may not have even believed in psychiatry or medication. And finally, even if they did, they may not have been able to afford it, and besides that, it is not just some sort of magic that will make the person okay.
Oct 4 2006, 12:19 PM
Um, thanks, anything besides a picayune correction you want to add to my post?
Was I saying anything larger, more relevant, and more distubing?
Oct 4 2006, 12:39 PM
with this foley thing, and even the amish shooting, i feel like sexual abuse is all of a sudden being seen as this reason, or excuse, for people doing horrible things, and that is frustrating!
i mean, just cause foley may have been abused, that is no excuse! and if he's just sick, then fine, but then the people who knew this was going on should have gotten him help before he hurt someone or ruined his career (too late).
i'm just sensing an attitude with the media like "oh they were molested" as if that explains everything. maybe i'm just being a sensitive survivor
but thats what it feels like to me. as if being molested means that you have no control over your own behavior and choices, or you don't know right from wrong....grr
yeah, i was confused about whether this guy was amish and then when i found out he wasn't, why he targeted that school? my friend says it's just because he lived nearby and also knew that the police would take a long time to respond becuase they didn't have phones...i dunno if that's true or just more speculation.
i'm just feeling so extra disturbed.
and yeah, i love how it said foley was a "D" ha!!!!
Oct 4 2006, 12:48 PM
I pretty much agree with you Wombat.
Although I'd make the knowing and acknowledging distinction- if you know what I mean?
I was thinking about what you were saying a little ways down Katie, and I didn't hear you as blaming the wife, more as being rhetorical. I can also kind of hear her asking herself the same thing....
Why didn't I see this coming? Why couldn't I stop him? etc
Gah. Who knows...Even if a delusional person asks for help with the voices, violent thoughts etc they don't always get the kind of help they need, and yeah for the family to deal with it. That's an awful lot of responsibility. Whatever their denomination, psychiatric help isn't always easy to ask for or to get.
The thing about him having molested family members 20years ago has me a little confused- he would've been 12. I just think the way the '20 years ago' is repeated (by the media) is *interesting*.
I feel mainly that I want to say that whilst the violent crimes that seem most shocking and *unbelievable* may be perpertrated by people with mental illnesses, most mentally ill people are not violent to others.
I know you all know that. I just had to say it.
ETA Oh and maddy- yes! I just half saw thebush talking, and saying Foley has asked me to tell you... whilst I was typing this, and yeah. Ugh. Don't like it.
Oct 4 2006, 01:29 PM
hey butterfly-what is confusing about him being 12 when he molested these girls? the girls were 3 and 5 years old.
yeah, i bet his wife is asking herself a lot of hard questions. it's scary though, to think of how much a person can hide from their partner. Poor woman, and their kids, sheesh! having to carry that the rest of their lives.
i do wonder if he'd sought help or anything, yeah. or what it was like in the home.
i also wonder if he'd recently remembered molesting those girls or if he'd always remembered-remembering something like that can make a person pretty nuts.....
i was just staring at the tv last night watching the coverage, and just bawling. i mean, i know people die every day, in a million different ways. for some reason when it's kids it's just another level of horror.
Oct 4 2006, 01:53 PM
I don't really know what I mean about the 20 years ago thing- I think it just struck me that they weren't saying "when he was 12...". But I don't even know why I'm drawing attention to that, because I don't think it's that important. (I mean the way that it's reported isn't that important- and probably just representative of the way he himself presented information).
Whatever he did or didn't do in the past doesn't change what happened now. And what's happened now is awful. And a few days ago almost unimaginable.
Oct 4 2006, 02:03 PM
wombat, it was hardly an insignificant correction; if you are going to go to the trouble of making a post and turn the topic around to something that interests you, then try getting the specifics right.
No, IMO you weren't saying anything larger, more relevant or (I take it) disturbing.
maddy, I wonder whether it's little things he has remembered/fantasised and whether he has confused reality with fantasy. If he's always remembered then it's strange he would bring his own children into the world. Perhaps it was triggered in the last decade by the death of his infant daughter - and brought to the surface latent necrophiliac desires (as wombat suggested in an earlier post, although I'm not really sure where the necrophilia comes in at all.) We can conjecture about whether he planned to molest those girls -he was prepared for a long seige and, disturbingly, with lubricant- but he certainly planned to kill himself and to kill all of those girls which is why he had so much ammunition with him. What his sexual -if any- motivation was, he had a desire to rob those innocents of their lives.
Oct 4 2006, 02:16 PM
i think i see butterfly-yeah, it's like who really cares what happened 20 years ago or 9 years ago with his infant daughter-i guess it's just an effort to understand "why" these things happen, but you're right, it's not all relevant.
yep bunny, sadly we'll never know probably, what's real and what was his imagination.
Oct 4 2006, 02:46 PM
Yeah, I mean, I don't know....
Like if you want to understand the motivation then it does matter. And that if he was 52 now, then 20 years ago he'd be 32, and I'd think ok, he had this secret paedophile past and the pressure not to re-offend, and the guilt...
But if he was 12. (and I'm not diminishing the experience for the 3/5 year olds (least ways trying not to)), then what was fantasy/reality (on his part)? Especially as there seems to be doubts.
Like I said, I guess I'm over analysing. And mainly I wanted to think out why that just kept hitting me when I read headlines.
The juxtoposition with someone like Foley is there for me- who seems to be excusing behaviour with victim status( which worries me and disturbs me).
But then I think, what this guy in PA did is just so, so awful. So terrifying. I think I want to find a reason why he did that so that I feel safer... and just demonising doesn't work for me.
Where as I resent someone like Foley abusing his power, using his past (whether it's him using it or others)as an excuse to justify his abuse annoys me, what is happening with people feeling so outside of their community, or so angry, scares the shit out of me, and I feel I have to try to figure out what went wrong.
Sorry if this is rambled and incoherrent.
Oct 4 2006, 02:58 PM
eh, i'm so incoherent today.
i know what you're saying now butterfly- why don't they say "when he was 12" rather than "20 years ago" because 20 years ago doesn't tell us that he was a child when he committed these acts, and that info DOES matter.
i know, i think we all search for meaning with this bad stuff.
yeah, i don't get this whole kill others THEN kill myself. i mean, if you want to die, fine, but why take out others with yoU? i don't get that mentality at all. AND, if he was so upset about these memories of molesting others, why would he plan this attack out so well and plan to molest them? gah. i think trying to make sense of it is just mind-boggling- i guess i'm kinda glad i don't understand....i used to always try to understnad why my grandfather hurt me, and i finally realized that i'll never understand cause i'm not a sick evil psychopath....
Oct 4 2006, 03:12 PM
Maddy, all of which makes me want to be your friend.
Yes. That is what I mean.
And why I think I try to figure it out- like if I could just work out why it happened, then I can make it stop. Didn't work before, probably won't work now. But I find myself still doing it.
Oct 4 2006, 03:57 PM
A few points: Most mentally ill people are not violent.
Most violent people are not mentally ill.
However, the point I was making is that people who are violent or mentally ill or sexually abusive are dumped back on their families after their stint in the given institution, and it takes years to institutionalize them in the first place.
This has a direct bearing on whether his family, neighbors, co-workers etcetera could have "seen it coming" and on the erroneous assumption that if they did "see it coming' they could have done something about it.
His wife -- I guess? -- called the police and probably aborted the episode. But she could not call the police and say "I think maybe he's GOING TO do something" or, she could, but they wouldn't do anything about it.
I don't think any of us could physically stop him. Are your shooting skills current and your flak jacket accessible and up to code?
She couldn't successfully get them to intervene until there was physical evidence and action on his part, I know this from experience.
Whether he himself was Amish is as insignificant to this as what color his eyes were.
Oct 4 2006, 04:11 PM
wombat, I'm sorry if it came across as a contradiction which obviously it was, because he's not Amish, but not a contemptuous one.
However, you were making the discussion of his mental illness about whether the Amish believed in modern medicine and whether he could afford treatment and I wanted to take that off the table because it's not applicable to the discussion. Whether he was Amish or not was significant to what you were attempting to discuss in that instance but not now.
So, can we move on please?
I believe his wife did phone the authorities but they had already been alerted by one of the teachers who was let go who managed to get to a phone (I don't know how quickly after her release).
It took on another dimension for me when I read earlier that, yes, the schoolhouse was convenient for him but he passed another on the way. He delivered milk to the house of two of the victims (one sister dies, the other injured) on Sunday night.
Oct 4 2006, 04:18 PM
Oh, no, I knew what you meant Wombat-
The stuff about violence/mental illness: absolutely. I was just saying that the things that seem so inexplicable make headlines, and that can lead people to believe otherwise.
And no, I don't mean stop them in that way. I was meaning that I have a history of a mad bad dangerous person in my life, who I couldn't stop- for exactly the reasons you outline- and I think that now that they are no longer a physical pressence, I realise that one of the outcomes is that I keep searching for reasons why they behaved that way. And as Maddy said- I'm not going to get to far with that one.
But mainly? Yes- the family is usually left to deal, and then bear the responsibility of the outcomes. And I think it's a tragedy that even where there isn't nessecarily violence or abuse towards others, that the stigma and the turning away from illness, the unwillingness by society to see- adds to the feeling of *outsider*, of stigma, and of isolation.
xposted with Bunny. I wondered if he chose an Amish school because of their beliefs in the afterlife.
Oct 4 2006, 04:54 PM
side note, to answer wombat-
i used to live near Amish country, and when I did a rotation through the state psych hospital, there was a good majority of the patients who were Amish, for a myriad of illnesses. and one of the reasons why they were at the state facility instead of say, the local hospital's psych ward, was because they didn't have the traditional medical insurance...
Oct 4 2006, 07:56 PM
The amish do believe in mental health care, and many amish communities place very high importance on ensuring people in their communities are mentally healthy. They do, in fact, have counselling and treatment centres. In fact, the community targetted with this crime actually has a centre for mental health care. One of the first things they did as a community after this took place was work on forgiveness for this crime--they actually got together and contacted the murderer's family to bring them food, and see how they were doing almost immediately after the fact.
I don't think the information about whether or not a particular criminal was using drugs for psychiatric treatment is made common knowledge; in fact, that kind of information comes out usually several weeks or months after the fact. Violent, murderous "sprees" have been an often-recorded side effect of SSRIs, Prozac specifically: a number of people who've gone on these kind of killing rampages and then committed suicide afterwards have in fact done so after being treated for depression with these drugs, but usually the violence is directed towards close family members. No one's reported anything about his depression and seriousness and illness other than people knew he was suffering from it...so it's quite possible he may have been under treatment for his condition. We don't know yet.
And I know: most people with mental illness are not violent; however violent people ARE suffering from some kind of illness, some kind of inability to keep from being violent. Violent, abusive behaviour is often one of the signs of advanced illnesses of all kinds, for example advanced syphilis or gonorrhea, particularly if there are delusions involved as well. Again, we have no way of knowing; and we don't know if any of the events might have been preventable or even predictable by others who would have known this person.
Today I was listening to a republican being interviewed on NPR and he mouthed off about Foley being inclined to the abuse he was caught committing because he is gay. He said, "the gays tend to be obsessed about sex" (or something to that effect). Of course, the interviewer said that many people would take offence and challenge that statement...and the republican stated that he didn't care, what he was saying was true and could be proven by psychiatrists and other people who have to "deal with them".
Wait!!! It's Republicans who obsess about sex...after all, so many of them knew what Foley was up to months ago, and did nothing till now (probably cause they were all up to the same thing); and all kinds of Republicans spent way too much time, money, and effort to try to impeach a legitimately elected Democrat over a blow job.
Oct 5 2006, 10:24 AM
i love you all.
that's all for now.
Oct 5 2006, 05:03 PM
Violent or mentally ill, I couldn't say. I don't understand school shootings. But I came across this somewhat related article earlier that makes me mad:http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/04/school-violence-funding/
It doesn't really surprise me much, but it would probably help if schools had better funding available to deal with situations like that.
Oct 6 2006, 12:40 PM
i find it very very amazing that these amish are preaching not to think evil of this man etc etc. but its hard for me to truly think well of them, mostly bc i have read many accounts of the abuse women suffer in those communities. not many women get out of that life, and the ones that do, well, the stories they tell are very sad.
either way, how they are dealing with it touched me, even despite the stories about women i have heard.
i for one wouldnt want anything to do with that crazy mans family and if he hadnt killed himself i would have done it. i know its not the right way but i know thats how i would feel.
Oct 6 2006, 01:57 PM
i dunno about this ease with forgiveness, in this situation or any, by the amish or anyone else.
there's obviously reason to be outraged and pissed, and sad. on one hand, anger isn't going to return those girls. on the other hand, anger can be productive. but maybe the amish community might not have an interest in solving this trend of school shootings in the US. now we know that keeping away from the modern world doesn't keep it away from you.
i guess i'm trying to find a lesson, but to no avail.