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Ha! I know I should ignore that, but it totally made my day!

Jasmith, maybe try the formatting link on the side? Above are special "big grin" smileys but to make regular smileys I just use a colon and a bracket.
Okay, I'm a dunce. Thanks!
Yeah, snafooey, why? :-)
did y'all read that the supreme court is taking on an abortion case- this is the big one! scary shit. i'm donating some money this weekend to the cause as soon as I balance my checkbook.
I'm hoping we don't follow suit here in Britain. I mean, we all know Tony is Bush's poodle, but gladly he tends to keep his Catholicism out of his political actions for the most part. And he'll be gone before too long anyway. Still, I guess we shouldn't take it all for granted. There's been a lot of muttering about lowering the abortion limit lately, I'm just hoping it's not the start of a real slippery slope for women in the UK. Can you believe all this shite is happening in 2006? Insania.
I love random Bible quotes. There's nothing more feminist.
yeah, thepointybird, it's hard to believe it's 2006. Of course, there are still lots and lots of people who want to go back to when women couldn't own property, could legally be raped, beaten, etc.

I just honestly don't get the big deal. I mean, I respect every woman's choice, and I respect every person's opinion. But it's just that-opinion! I don't see why some religious people's opinion's can matter this much in a goverment that is supposedly separate from the church.

Grrrr. It just makes me mad. To me, abortion is just like any other medical procedure that any one chooses to have. For some it's a big decision, for some it's medically necessary, for some it's an inconvenience.

I mean, I have lots of eggs that don't get fertilized, and they get flushed out. So am I killing them by not fertilizing them? I mean how far do we go with this?? My aunt (who IS a feminist) thinks that birth control pills are ok, condoms are ok, but an IUD (which i have) is actually immoral and is killing. Because, with an IUD I could have fertilization happen, and the IUD would create a hostile environment, thus essentially killing the fertilized egg. And, that is MURDER!!! Ha. I mean that is insane to me, that a small clump of cells can be considered "precious life."

Ok I could talk about this all day!
Cecelia Fire Thunder has been impeached:,49123
that fucking sucks. she's such a brave woman! i'm still glad she did what she did, it made me feel like there are courageous fighters out there fighting the fight!

But yeah, now they impeached her. buttnuts. blech.

i'm just soooo sick of this "abortion debate." It's such a crock of shit. GAH!
Did anyone hear about that anti-choice blogger who didn't get that the Onion was satirical and attacked them for their supposedly flippant piece on abortion?

"I'm totally psyched about this humiliation!"

It's Salon's take on it (with a link to the original Onion article as well as his attacks on it), so you'll have to click through a brief ad to get to it. They actually went and interviewed the guy and he defended himself by saying that "I meet women like her in the field all the time." What does that even mean? Who exactly is opening up to this man about her reproductive choices?
my husband decided today he's not suitable to have kids (due to memory and anger mgmt issues stemming from brain damage from a car accident 10 yrs ago). He's taken this position before and then forgotten about it, which may happen with today too, but who knows. "So if I got pregnant accidentally you'd want me to have an abortion?" I said - a question I've put to him several times before, but he's forgotten those too. He never had an answer for it before but I just asked him to think about it.

This time he said "yes". And "I'd hope we'd reach a consensus."

I said "Me too, but I can't say what I'd decide unless I was actually experiencing it."

He objected to my use of "I" and said WE would decide.

I said "Yeah, but in the case of disagreement, the pro-choice position is that it's ultimately the woman's body so it's HER choice."

He considers this demonstrates my complete lack of respect for his views/opinions.

I tried softening it by saying "Of course I would listen to what you'd have to say, I'd want to explore all the angles, but I can't guarantee in good faith that I'd agree to abort. Of course if there were that fundamental a disagreement I wouldn't expect our marriage to survive."

Ha. Guess that's the academic side of me not realizing that the comment about our marriage not surviving would hit him badly. It's hypothetical, for christ's sake. (But yeah I'll have to apologize for that, or something.)

anyway, so there was a long silence and his last word was that I'm being "reactionary" due to childhood issues with my mom and dad. I told him I disagreed but I wouldn't go into details because I didn't think it'd be productive, he asked me when I would deign to tell him, I asked if he wanted to know now, he said he didn't know, I said "OK let me know when you want to know."

can't stop myself from thinking that for him, pro-choice is fine in the abstract but not when it hits him in his private life (unless I agree that my future self will agree with him). man. we married 3 yrs ago and all this time he's known that I don't WANT kids but I'm not totally committed to child-freeness either.

if this post is inappropriate for this thread, apologies. I couldn't find the newlywed thread (where I figured it would fit best).

oh, hello yo. i'll just go and have that elective surgery that could result in my permanent sterility or even death then. just 'cause you're "undecided" honey.
Anarch i am so with you. i didn't realize how i would actually feel until i was actually pregnant either. let me tell you, it was Nothing like i expected. i would promise nothing beyond listening to him. personally, i think that if a man REALLY doesn't want to ever have children he should get it snipped and then Still be super careful. i mean, don't think for a minute that i'm going to go have this what-could-be-a-person-one-day sucked out of me because you're feeling squeamish after the fact. rilly. the part that involved the man's body is Long over at that point. it's ALL up to me by then.
hey pepper! *hugs*
We talked about it yesterday and I'm glad to report that we resolved it. Turned out he got upset mostly because he couldn't imagine a situation where we really would be intractably on opposite sides of such an important issue. He was upset that I could, so easily. He'd wanted me to emphasize that of course, if it happened, we would listen to each other's views and throw ourselves into working something out. Of course, I was taking that as a given when I jumped straight to "Look, ultimately it'd be MY decision," but he thought I was dismissing it entirely.

I never realized before how his being such a romantic could cause upsetting situations!

because you're feeling squeamish after the fact.

Ha! Thanks for your support, Pepper. It really helped.
Just wanted to point out that "elective surgery that could result in my permanent sterility or even death" is not a particularly accurate description of abortion - complications in childbirth are 11 times more likely to cause death than a first trimester abortion, and there's no greater risk of infertility from abortion than from childbirth.
perhaps my description isn't accurate to You but two abortions and one live birth (totally unassisted in my tub) later, i really think i'm qualified to have an opinion about it. just as you are, of course.
there is a risk of sterility or even death associated with abortion. no matter how small the percentage, some women had to suffer and/or die to make it a percentage at all.
still, neither of us can tell the other that she's "wrong".

glad to hear you worked things out anarch. at the very least maybe it will give you clarity about the future possibility? one way or the other.
QUOTE(pepper @ Jul 24 2006, 08:51 PM) *

i really think i'm qualified to have an opinion about it. just as you are, of course.
there is a risk of sterility or even death associated with abortion. no matter how small the percentage, some women had to suffer and/or die to make it a percentage at all.
still, neither of us can tell the other that she's "wrong".

But, uh... Vesica isn't expressing an opinion. There's some risk involved in every surgical procedure, big or small. But we do ourselves a disservice by overstating the risks involved in abortion, especially those performed in the first trimester.

From the Guttmacher Institute:

Get "In the Know": Questions About Pregnancy, Contraception and Abortion

How safe is abortion?

The risk of abortion complications is minimal when the procedure is performed by a trained professional in a hygienic setting: Fewer than 1% of all U.S. abortion patients experience a major complication. The risk of death associated with abortion in the U.S. is less than 0.6 per 100,000 procedures, which is less than one-tenth as large as the risk associated with childbirth. (68) However, 68,000 women in countries where abortion is illegal die each year of abortion complications, and many times this number are injured by unsafe procedures. (69)

How many abortion-related deaths are there each year in the United States?

Between 1990 and 2000, there were between four and 11 deaths related to legal abortion in the United States each year. (70)

68. Henshaw SK, Unintended pregnancy and abortion: a public health perspective, in: Paul M et al., eds., A Clinician’s Guide to Medical and Surgical Abortion, New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1999, pp. 11–22.

69. Ǻhman E and Shah I, 2004 Unsafe Abortion: Global and Regional Estimates of the Incidence of Unsafe Abortion, Geneva: WHO, 2004 (forthcoming), Table 3.

70. Strauss LT et al., Abortion surveillance—United States, 2001, Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, Surveillance Summaries, 2004, 53(SS-9).
Thanks for the info msp.

Anarch, I can empathise with your earlier posts, especially this: 'he got upset mostly because he couldn't imagine a situation where we really would be intractably on opposite sides of such an important issue. He was upset that I could, so easily.'

I'm in a somewhat similar sitch which is currently an abstract one, thankfully. It was helpful to me to read your post. I do think it's worth remembering this is an emotional issue for men too. Sometimes it's hard for me to see that over the roaring in my ears that says 'it's my body', although for me that fact still trumps all.
funny to be quoting myself...
"there is a risk of sterility or even death associated with abortion. no matter how small the percentage, some women had to suffer and/or die to make it a percentage at all."
sorry, 1% is not none. i don't care to take that kind of risk with MY body. i have zero interest in being that 1%.
i always look at these kinds of things as being 50-50, either it will happen or it won't happen. that's what i think when i buy a lotto ticket too, either i will win or i won't win, screw the statistics, ha ha.
i'm certainly a supporter of choice, obviously having had two abortions myself, but not when someone is coersed into it with the argument that it's "no big deal".
geez, maybe i'm just too cautious but i wouldn't have even a mole removed if there was Any risk of death associated with it.

sybarite, me too. roaring in my ears. dammit. it IS MY body. it pisses me off no end to be told that the risk is so small as to be negligable. fuck, risk your own self then and not me. thank you very much!
QUOTE(pepper @ Jul 25 2006, 10:16 AM) *

i'm certainly a supporter of choice, obviously having had two abortions myself, but not when someone is coersed into it with the argument that it's "no big deal".

I don't see where anyone is suggesting it's "no big deal." Just trying to put the facts out there.
Pepper, I wasn't trying to tell you not to have an opinion, I just didn't want anyone reading your post to get the impression that having an abortion is more dangerous to life or on-going fertility than continuing the pregnancy. There is a *higher* risk of death and an equal risk of sterility associated with the choice to give birth, but no one says, "don't have a baby, you could die." What I was trying to get across is that if you're pregnant, you're in the situation where you have to make a choice one way or the other, and it's statistically riskier to continue the pregnancy than to terminate it early -- although in my experience the odds like that are absolutely the last thing most women are thinking about when they're deciding whether or not to get an abortion.
I thought this was interesting...I was just at the Yahoo home page and saw that the Senate has passed a bill that would make it a crime to take a pregnant girl across state lines for an abortion without her parents knowing.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know exactly where abortion stands in Canada? I just realized that I'm always reading about abortion in the U.S. but I don't even know exactly what stance my own country takes on it.
I don't know exact details, but as far as I know you don't need parental permission and you can have it done for free at a hospital, but I think waits can be long so some women opt to pay at a private clinic. But that's a good point...I'll have to re-check my info.
In Canada there is no law regarding abortion. It is legally the same as any other surgical procedure - a decision between the patient and her doctor. Seems like a smart way to approach it, eh?
Thanks Chani, that's what I thought. I get extremely frusturated reading about all this stuff going on just an hour's drive away from me and I'm so thankful that I live in Canada...even though I have to put up with the asshat Harper.
This is some scary stuff:

Interstate Abortion Bill Nears Passage
By LAURIE KELLMAN, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON - Taking a teenager across state lines to get an abortion without a parent's knowledge would become a crime punishable by prison under a bill that headed toward Senate passage Tuesday.

Struggling to defend their majority this election year, Republican sponsors said the bill supports what a majority of the public believes: that a parent's right to know takes precedence over a young woman's right to have an abortion.

"No parent wants anyone to take their children across state lines or even across the street without their permission," said Senate Majority Whip Mitch McConnell, R-Ky. "This is a fundamental right, and the Congress is right to uphold it in law."

Bowing to public support for parental notification and the GOP's 55-44-1 majority, Democrats spent the day trying to carve out an exemption for confidants to whom a girl with abusive parents might turn for help. They complained that the measure is the latest in a series of bills designed chiefly to energize the party's base of conservative voters.

"Congress ought to have higher priorities than turning grandparents into criminals," said Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass.

The measure would make taking a pregnant teenager over state lines to obtain an abortion a crime punishable by fines and up to a year in prison. The girl and her parents would be protected from prosecution and an exception would be made in cases where the pregnancy endangered the teen's life.

Polls suggest there is widespread public backing for the bill, with almost three-quarters of respondents saying a parent has the right to give consent before a child under 18 has an abortion.

States that do not have parental notification or consent laws are Washington, Oregon, New York, Vermont, Rhode Island and Connecticut. The District of Columbia also does not have such laws.

No one knows how many girls get abortions in this way, or who helps them do it. But Democrats say the policy would be dangerous to pregnant teens who have abusive or neglectful parents by discouraging other people from helping them.

"We're going to sacrifice a lot of girls' lives," said Sen. Hillary Clinton, D-N.Y.

Sen. Jim DeMint, R-S.C., countered that opponents "want to strip the overwhelming majority of good parents their rightful role and responsibility because of the misbehavior of a few."

Democrats proposed several amendments during Tuesday's debate, including one sponsored by Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., to protect such confidants as grandparents, clergy and others to whom a girl might turn for help.

Another, sponsored by Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-N.J., would have encouraged the federal government to provide money for more sex education, but it failed 48-51.

"If we do nothing about teen pregnancy yet pass this punitive bill, then it proves that this (bill) is only a political charade and not a serious effort to combat the problem," Lautenberg said.

Abstinence is the best way to prevent teenage pregnancy, responded Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla.

"How many people really think it's in the best interest of young people to be sexually active outside of marriage? Does anything positive ever come from that?" Coburn asked.

The bills are S. 403 and H.R. 748.

What do ladies think?
That's similar to what I posted earlier only I thought that it had already been passed? I don't really know what to say. It just seems like these laws are getting more and more absurd.

"How many people really think it's in the best interest of young people to be sexually active outside of marriage? Does anything positive ever come from that?" Coburn asked.

I found that part to be quite interesting. I'm 21 and I can honestly say that I don't think any of my friends are virgins. Not one. Perhaps it made sense to wait for sex until marriage back when people were getting married by our age, but not today. As long as people are smart and take precautions I really don't see anything negative that can come out of sex before marriage.
The bill passed last night, 65-34. And if you can imagine, the bill passed by the House last year (CIANA, the "Child Interstate Abortion Notification Act"), is even worse. Now the question is how they'll resolve the two in conference.

The "Child Interstate Abortion Notification Act" would impose an impossibly complex patchwork of parental-involvement laws on women and doctors across the country with the goal to curb young women’s access to private, confidential health services.

The bill proposes a variety of new mandates on women, families, and doctors. Among other things:

(1) The bill forces doctors to learn and enforce 49 other states’ laws, under the threat of fines and prison sentences.
(2) In many cases, CIANA forces young women to comply with two states’ parental-involvement mandates.
(3) In some cases CIANA requires a doctor to notify a young woman’s parents in person, in another state, before abortion services can be provided.
(4) In some cases, even if a parent travels with his or her daughter to obtain abortion care, the doctor must still give “notice” to the parent and wait 24 hours before providing the care.

candycane, Teens were always having sex. It was just pushed under the rug more back in the day. Girls just went to stay w/ thier "aunts" for 9 months and came back good as new. While thier babies were sent off to god knows where. But everyone has gotten a lot more open about sex over the years so teens being active is more widely discussed.

I remember hearing about CIANA, when it passed and being shocked. It just feels like women are having more and more reproductive rights stripped away all the time.
I completely agree with you ginger_kitty. My grandmother always goes on and on about how teens never used to get pregnant and I always roll my eyes. Of course they did, it was just kept secret, as you mentioned.

As for that bill, I don't even know what to say anymore. First off, I'm glad that I'm living in Canada. Secondly, if I do ever move to the states, I'm glad that I'm over 18 so that if I should ever need an abortion, I won't have to worry about breaking the law. This whole situation is ridiculous. First off, maybe if teens were actually educated about sex they wouldn't go off and do it thinking that nothing bad will happen. It's ridiculous that there are teens out there don't know what kind of consequences there can be with unprotected sex. But let's face it; condoms break, the pill isn't 100% effective. If a teen wants an abortion, there should be nothing to stop her, and she should be propery educated about it, not given myths and lies about what it could do to her body.
Okay, okay, fine, make it harder to get an abortion, whatever, but will you at least provide access to information and materials that will result in fewer unwanted pregnancies to begin with? No? Fuck you, then!
I can understand from these asshats' points of view that it's wrong to have sex outside of marriage (although I doubt many of them stayed virgins that long), but that is their opinion and their are millions of Americans who believe otherwise. I mean, I was friends with all the nerds who never got laid in high school, but now even my super-Christian friend who wanted to wait until marriage have all had sex and none of them are married. Nobody wants more abortions--at the very least it's surgery and surgery is never fun, and the most, according to some people (although I can't manage to fathom this no matter how I try), it's murder. So let's try and keep as many people fetus-free as possible! It makes sense.
QUOTE(thingsarenice @ Jul 27 2006, 09:41 AM) *

I can understand from these asshats' points of view that it's wrong to have sex outside of marriage

And keep in mind that married women can find themselves seeking abortions, too. Marriage is no insurance against financial hardship, single parenthood, health problems, etc.
I just talked to a man yesterday whose wife is 6 mos. pregnant and they just found out the baby's brain isn't developing, so they're looking for someone to terminate the pregnancy. I can't even begin to think about what her alternatives would be if legal abortion wasn't available to her. As it is, I don't even think she can get it done in this city (maybe in a hospital setting, and maybe that's for the best anyway.)
definitely in the hospital as it will be more of an induced labour at this point. not too terrible from a physical delivering-the-baby kind of way but so sad and hard emotionally. all that work to give birth to your dead baby. ah, that makes my heart just hurt.
The leader of the Lakota tribe who wanted to put an abortion clinic on the reservation has been ousted:

(Sorry about the ugly link- even with the new formatting, it still has issues with commas. sad.gif)
Scary--but unfortunately not surprising--article about attempts to close down Mississipi's last abortion clinic here:
Check it out:

I never watch the View, but I'm slightly impressed that this twat was outnumbered.
I think its insane that any anti-choicer is against the Morning-after pill, when the realistic alternative is abortion. Just insane.
Here's a link to the video of it:

I wish that the other two either then Blondie would have gotten more airtime with their opinions, but I think it was handled pretty well and rationally, which was nice for a change.
Oh fer crying out loud! Good for Walters to jump in there! I didnt know she was cool.
Who the hell is that girl anyway? And if every fertilized egg is a 'life' then shoot, why stop there? Arent all our eggs potential life and therefore we are wasting them when they go unfertilized? Does this women promote sex at puberty so as not to let all that potential life wasted? I mean COME! ON!
I think that girl must have rabies.
Teh stoopid! It burns!
re: survivor broad-

i always wondered what conservative xtians thought about hydatidiform molar pregnancies, or blighted ova... are THESE CHILDREN too because they've been "fertilized"? i mean, really, i'd like to hear an argument for this.
sadly, i bet if they could pass a law making it illegal for white people to have abortions, they would. they probably woulnd't care so much about other "lives". cause isnt' it really white men making these laws? and white women? mostly rich people?

maybe i'm too cynical...
I consider myself to be pro-life in a way because I think abortion is killing, but in regards to the law, I don't think it should be completely illegal. My views on abortion are a little complex and I don't feel as though I really fit into either the pro-life or the pro-choice side of the debate. I also consider myself to be feminist. Are there any others out there who struggle in this way?
It is a complex issue when you bring 'morality' into it, because a lot of us were brainwashed into believing the fetus is a life. I think a lot of it is because previous generations have struggled with more miscarriages, so a fetus that grows to term and is birthed became really special. I know my older aunt went through a lot of miscarriages so it baffles her that anyone would CHOOSE to terminate a pregnancy. I feel for women who want a baby and have a miscarriage, but I think when they mourn its mourning a POSSIBILITY, not a life.
I for one certainly would rather prevent a pregnancy then abort, but I am 100% in need of the choice to abort. There are enough unwanted kids in the world, weres the morality in forcing more births when so many other kids need help?
Greenbean, I'm not sure if you were responding to me or not, but I'll go ahead and respond. I do believe a fetus is a human life in very early development. I wasn't "brainwashed" as you say and wonder why you believe one could only think this due to "brainwashing". I'm mainly opposed to abortion being illegal because our society is very divided on this issue and I don't think it would accomplish anything positive to make it illegal (people would find a way to have them anyway.) I'm mainly saddened that our culture doesn't recognize abortion as ending a life. I'm also saddened that in our society women with an unplanned pregnancy are forced into the position of having to choose to end a life or face the possibility of giving up their education or career goals. This isn't much of a choice in my opinion, both are pretty bad. It's unfortunate that our society doesn't accomodate the natural functioning of the female body to birth children and raise children and that this has to be done at the percieved expense of the woman's own quality of life. I see the abortion procedure to be a very violent act upon the female body, and violence against her unborn child (which at least half the time is also female). The right to choose violence and the promotion of this right as being in a woman's best interest is a disgrace to women.

I don't mean to express my views in here if they aren't appropriate to this thread. If this is a strict pro-choice thread I can try to start a new one.
Katze, I'm always interested to hear pro-life feminists stance on abortion. I have to say I disagree, but I'm not sure if this is the right spot to discuss either. Maybe ask in the community forum and see what the general opinion is.
Here is something interesting I came across:
QUOTE(ginger_kitty @ Aug 19 2006, 11:35 AM) *

Here is something interesting I came across:

I like it. It gives a fresh perspective and it's definitely a new point of view...and to me it makes sense! Thanks for posting this! smile.gif
From CNN:

Morning-after pill to be available without prescription
Buyers must prove they're 18 or older

Thursday, August 24, 2006; Posted: 9:39 a.m. EDT (13:39 GMT)

Plan B will be available over the counter to women 18 or older.

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Women may buy the morning-after pill without a prescription -- but only with proof they're 18 or older, federal health officials ruled Thursday, capping a contentious 3-year effort to ease access to the emergency contraceptive.

Girls 17 and younger still will need a doctor's note to buy the pills, called Plan B, the Food and Drug Administration told manufacturer Barr Pharmaceuticals Inc.

The compromise decision is a partial victory for women's advocacy and medical groups that say eliminating sales restrictions could cut in half the nation's 3 million annual unplanned pregnancies.

The pills are a concentrated dose of the same drug found in many regular birth-control pills.

When a woman takes the pills within 72 hours of unprotected sex, they can lower the risk of pregnancy by up to 89 percent. If she already is pregnant, the pills have no effect.

Barr has said it hopes to begin nonprescription sales of Plan B by the end of the year.

The pills will be sold only from behind the counter at pharmacies -- so the pharmacist can check photo identification -- but not at convenience stores or gas stations.

There isn't enough scientific evidence that young teens can safely use Plan B without a doctor's supervision, Dr. Andrew von Eschenbach, the FDA's acting commissioner, said in a memo obtained by The Associated Press.

But Barr did prove that over-the-counter use is safe for older teens and adults -- and licensed pharmacies are used to checking for proof of age 18 before selling tobacco and certain other products, von Eschenbach wrote in explaining the agency's age cutoff.

"This approach should help ensure safe and effective use of the product," he concluded.
Plan B's maker was disappointed that FDA imposed the age restriction and pledged to continue trying to get the agency to try to eliminate it.

"While we still feel that Plan B should be available to a broader age group without a prescription, we are pleased that the agency has determined that Plan B is safe and effective for use by those 18 years of age and older as an over-the-counter product," said Bruce L. Downey, Barr's chairman.

As a condition of approval, Barr agreed to track whether pharmacists are enforcing the age restriction, by, among other things, sending anonymous shoppers to buy Plan B.

The FDA said that Barr is to conduct that formal tracking at least twice in the first year of sales and annually thereafter, and report stores that break the rules to their state pharmacy licensing boards.

But Barr also will conduct a national education campaign to raise awareness of emergency contraception, among both women and health providers.

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