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Thanks kittenb, much better.

(but this is sooo not the place for his rantings. This of all places on the board should be a safe space.)
Bahahahaha - I've come in late (other side of the world and all) and reading our little troll's 'responses' is actually hilarious because I know the rest of y'all are ignoring him and he's talking to himself.

*sets her own ignore*

As a christian I am so sorry fucktards like this exist. I believe forgiveness is a great gift, but that it comes with a great responsibility too - to forgive without reason is to deny the reality of existence and the beauty of emotion. To forgive without reason is to remain in ignorance. Anger is a gift, to quote the wonderful de la Rocha - without it we wouldn't appreciate what we are angry about and what we are protecting with that anger.

Those who counsel forgiveness without reason or trust are worse than those who counsel hatred without reason or respite.

Plus, y'know, there's the stupidity bit.
If you just click on his username, then click on options when his profile comes up, ignore poster is an option. Saves typing the username, you don't have to worry about getting it spelled just right with underscores or spaces or anything.

(((((everyBUSTie making it another day)))))
Ananke, thank you for your post. You touched on a lot of my own thoughts.

I think any counselor who brings forgiveness into the discussion early in the recovery process is a bad counselor who does not understand the situation. It's insulting and all it does is make it take that much longer for the victim to heal. The victim has the right to feel angry and hurt!

((((((((much love for all of the survivors))))))))
hey all- good thing i already had that loser on ignore:) love it!

although how dare he come into this thread- i don't even know what he wrote but how fucking DARE HE! as for turning the other cheek-i'm turning my butt cheeks toward you right now buddy. the Courage to Heal (I think) they talk about anger as the backbone of healing, and I've found that to be really true. It's like, all the grief and fear and pain just beat me down, but I picture my anger shooting up through me and helping me stand tall and strong again.

Yeah, it was the college sexual assault and prevention center. So, I went in for incest stuff, and she basically said we could meet a few times, but that she couldn't see me long-term because it wasn't a rape that happened like, while I was in college. I'm sure this has to do with funding, but that made me really mad. My roommate was getting free treatment there for like 2 years! Not that I would've wanted that counselor anyways, she was awful. She didn't even give me a referral to another agency that could see me for free (or any agency). NICE. GAh, I still feel mad at her!!!!

Although, weirdly ,that experience of not being heard and stuff, really made me feel more strong and sure of what had happened. That something really had happened, and that I wasn't being crazy. It reaffirmed to me, how important it was that I go see someone who was open to repressed memories and stuff....(But not someone who sucks and tries to lead you....)

i'm always so glad for this thread.

I was really grateful for this thread too until.....................couldn't believe it.He/she made me feel worse.
How ironic,I bet he/she thought that they were helping.Made me regress back to the turn the other cheek
bullshit from my christian upbringing.One Sunday we learnt about incest and this was during the time I was
being molestered by my brother.I remember sitting on the edge of the bath that night after Sunday school,petrified that I was going to go to hell.
I must have been about nine or ten.I have ignored him/her on this thread.All busties will just have to support each other even more.We have another adversity in our midsts.
Hugs and great unchristian vibes to all surviving busties. (((()))
Yeah, it really is the lowest of the low, to come into a thread like this and tell us to forgive. Pretty insane. Just ignore ignore. But I know it's hard. This is supposed to be a safe space from the rest of the world.

There is a REALLY great survivors forum that I used to go on-it's huge and can be really overwhelming, but there are so many people there going through the same things. AND, it's a well-moderated community, so they don't get the same kind of troll invasions. They have threads on everything you could possibly want to know. (Self injury, addiction, depression, anxiety, ptsd, therapy, dissociation, links, tips, articles, etc)

I'm going to pm you datagirl, because I don't want to give the trolls the address. If anyone else wants it-just pm me-I'm happy to give it out to people in this or other threads.

Much love:)
When people tell us to forgive, it means they have never gone through what we go through. It means they have no empathy, no understanding. They can't fathom the consiquences of rape. People who who can empathize say "I'm here for you" and "I'll listen" They don't say "it was your fault" and "god is punishing you". People with love in their hearts hold us during our flash backs and understand it wasn't our fault. Rapists are the ones who say "god is the answer" and "god will send you to hell because you made me do this". A rapist never deserves forgivness, forgivness implies an act that in some way can be seen as minor. Stealing virginity, happiness, safeness, life, trust, and the ability to heal are not minor. These are the things that give us the will to live, and the will to function. No one can steal these things and ever deserve to get off the hook. Any one who tells us to live and let live doesn't know shit.
I saw my counsellor for the first time yesterday. The whole day was stressful because I was starting a new job and going back to classes, so I was out of the house at 10am and back at 9pm and it was non-stop running around.

Anyways, I really like her. I think we clicked really well. Mostly I filled out some paper work and then she asked me a bit about how I feel and I told her all about what happened and she was really great about the whole thing. She said she was really happy that I can feel that anger and that I direct it well, instead of re-directing it onto someone else (which happens sometimes too.)

I think i was sort of afraid she wasn't going to believe it was rape, which was ridiculous because I know the organization and the people who work there and I don't seriously think they would employ anyone who would say that, so I think her reactions just really relieved me, like I can say, yeah, i was right, it's wasn't my fault.

So I feel like this is a really good step for me. I'm feeling very positive.

Unfortunatly amidst all the running around I didn't really have time to reflect on the session. Oh well. Next week I should have a free hour and a half after.
erinjane - I am so happy that you found something that will work for you! Congratulations.
erinjane-that's really awesome that it went so well. i'm glad she is good, and that she was validating. yay for good therapists smile.gif

deschatrouge-word. you said it so nicely.
I wish I had a rape crisis couselor, it's hard to find one that can get through. I'm glad you have found one that works for you erinjane. The last one I had quit her job (I miss her). I was sad because she was the best, she let me talk about my rape experience and didn't make me describe it to her. She told me the if I was ever ready to do that, I would know and I would do it on my own. I hope your counselor is in it for the long haul and helps you erinjane.

Has anyone ever noticed how they feel about the taboo of talking about being raped. The taboo makes me angry. I wonder if it would feel liberating to break that taboo.

It's strange to say "my rape experience" I feel like owning it makes me feel a little better about talking about it. I also feel proud that I can talk about it and that I went through that awful trauma but came out on the other side just a little stronger and a little wiser. I feel proud to call myself a survivor.
gak, yes deschatrouge! that's why i'm always rambling on here about people telling and reporting and stuff, and my frustration with the taboo and everything. it's like it's still my dirty little secret, ya know?

i think i posted some spazzy post a while back about "what if everyone who'd ever been sexually assaulted like, went to the police station and reported it, all on the same day." because that would flood police stations everywhere, and really show how much of a problem it is.

I mean, i dont' feel like talkign about the gory details anymore-I used to need to, and now i'm all set with that. but i still feel the need to change things, and speaking out in some way seems important. i'm just not sure how to do it, i'm shy and and introvert-not into public speaking or take back the night stuff.

ramblin' again smile.gif
Somehow it feels like my comment belongs in here.

My doctor and I have been chasing something through my body. I had an ultrasound to see why my stomach was hurting so much. It revealed nothing in the stomach (I have gastritis) but it showed that I have a large spleen. I had to have a CT Scan for the spleen and it showed that nothing was wrong with it, but I have a 6'' mass in my uterus. My doc is fairly sure that it is a fibroid. Fibroids are more annoying than dangerous and a simple surgery should get rid of it. But simple or not, I am scared. I have never had to deal with anything like this and it really upsets me.

So why am I talking about this here? Well I did some research and there are many theories that fibroids are a symptom of unresolved anger in women. Makes sense that they would form in a reproductive organ, doesn't it? Another reason that I am writing about it here is that I keep thinking that maybe I would have noticed this if I had not been putting of my annual gyne visit for so long but even the best most woman friendly women's health practitioner requires me to "be brave" and I just didn't want to put up with it. SO six inches later, here I am. On Thursday I have to have ANOTHER ultrasound, this one transvaginally, to scope out what it going on.

I am so beyond aggravated. I have had a transvaginal US before. It sucks and the experience was so unpleasent that it was one of the reasons I didn't got to a gyne for many, MANY years after that. This time, though, I am different. I am just going to tell the lab tech, "Here's the deal. I am a rape survivor. I have not had sex in a VERY long time and everything in me tenses up when I am near a doctor who wants to poke me like you are about to. So, you are going to do this slowly and within my comfort level and be repectful or I will have a different tech. Is that a deal?"

Think that will work? I want this thing out of me! I have been trying to visualize it and at first all I could see it as was a tumbleweed. When I mentioned this to a friend she said "Tumbleweeds make me think of ghost towns." As I don't want to equate my uterus to a barren wasteland haunted by spirits of the past, I have decided to call it a Koosh ball. I have a Koosh ball in the playground of my uterus. Koosh balls are not a bad thing, in an of themselves, but it is in the wrong place and needs to go away.

QUOTE(deschatsrouge @ Sep 7 2006, 01:29 PM) *

Has anyone ever noticed how they feel about the taboo of talking about being raped. The taboo makes me angry. I wonder if it would feel liberating to break that taboo.

It's strange to say "my rape experience" I feel like owning it makes me feel a little better about talking about it. I also feel proud that I can talk about it and that I went through that awful trauma but came out on the other side just a little stronger and a little wiser. I feel proud to call myself a survivor.

On Fridays I go out to lunch with a few friends of mine...two co-workers and one of them's girlfriend. We are semi-close, meaning we can talk about most topics.

Well, there had been a rape in the alley close to where we were, a couple days earlier. And we talked about it...and other recent rapes in the news.

And I came *so* close to saying, "you know, when *I* was raped..." but I stopped.

Came to realize later that I stopped for THEIR comfort, not mine. Because I knew things would get all awkward and they would do the whole "oh, you poor thing" thing and now I'd be a "victim" and not, just a gal out for a good time with friends.....

So I kept quiet.

I wish, now, that I had said it.
I know exactly how you guys feel about the taboo of talking about it. I don't tell people that I was raped mainly because of the whole taboo. I don't want people to see me differently. Because as soon as people know about it, I automatically stop being "cara" and being "the girl who was raped".

And that's partially the reason why I don't tell my parents.
kittenb: I know what you're saying with the doc-anxiety and quim-issues. I've been really bad the past few months - flashbacks, freaking out etc. I haven't had sex for three months. but my poor quim keeps getting freaked out. Keeps having minor but irritating issues.

As far as talking about it goes - it took me two years to say "I was raped". Nearly five to say who did it. So far three of my friends know. My husband knows. I've been deliberating telling my family and nova's - mine because I feel like I'm no longer protecting myself, i'm hiding. Nova's for a similar reason - also so they'll hopefully grasp the concept that when I say don't touch me, it isn't a cute quirk, I seriously mean don't fucking touch me. But i'm still nervous - my friends who know have always accepted who I am. Two are survivors themselves. So there isn't that dancing bear lady effect - I'm not entertainment, or a study, or a thing. I'm still me. I just happen to have shared something with you.
My therapist told me to tell the ones I loved. She also said it was natural to not want to. You love them, you want to protect them. She said they have a right to be angry too, she called them secondary victims. First I told the love of my life and she was really angry (still is). Then I told my dad, he cried, he asked me who did it and I told him. Then I told my mom, she asked me if he beat me up. After I told them I felt like I had experienced a deeper sort of intamacy. I realized that when I told them, I had just added three more people to my list of folks who would support me in recovery. A step toward transforming from a victim to a survivor.
yeah, i totally agree-especially in situations like what treehugger described. (OT-whenever treehugger posts I'm so jealous of her tubal)

this is such a great sentence: (treehugger) "Came to realize later that I stopped for THEIR comfort, not mine. " That is SO right on!

it's like in casual conversation, at this point in my healing, i can talk about it a big-and not freak out. but i feel like if i bring it up or mention it in passing, people will kinda freeze up, and look at me and feel uncomfortable or think that it means i'm about to flip out or something.

i've actually been thinking about this lately, cause I never really talk about it. all my relatives know, but i've never talked to them about it-they know from my parents. But, I'm SO glad they know, because it was a huge piece of my life-while the incest was happening, and then healing from it. so i do feel like my family knows me a lot better now.

i know what ya mean, i didn't want to be incestmaddy. i just wanted to be maddy.

big big but totally safe hugs for kittenb... i didn't go to the gyno for 3 years, i mean i wasn't having sex, but still. i was just tooooo scared. it's still really hard for me to go. i always want to cancel. it makes me pretty sick. really triggering,e tc. i found the perfect doctor and then she moved sad.gif waaaaah. i think it's great if you say that to the lab tech, definitely! i told my gyn that i was an incest survivor and that paps/pelvics are very painful and difficult, and she was so nice and great.
Thanks, everybody, for your great thoughts. I have my ultrasound on Thursday and I have been on quite a journey for the past few days. I have learned more about my family health history than I ever would have guessed. It seems that fibroids run through over 50% of the women on my father's side of the family. My grandma kept aplologizing for not telling me sooner.
I received the name of a gyne in my network who is reputed to have a great and calm manner about her so I am going to make an appointment with her very soon. Overall I just feel better. Knowledge is power and I have been doing a ton of research.

As for disclosing, I agree that the secondary victims deserve a chance to be angry. I just can't trust that their reactions wouldn't get someone imprisoned and I am not exaggerating when I say that. It's a tough call and I support everyone in their choices here.

Thanks again. smile.gif
hello, I want to post in here, but then I get nervous, and a bit lost in what I want to say, and so I don't say anything.
But you all help me so much, and I do really want to thank you for that.

Kittenb, I really hope things work out ok for you. You seem like you're looking after yourself in a really good way. I think that having a strategy would really help me- and that the one you have is clear and confident.
I've always managed ok with gynae stuff- until my last pap test. The woman that was doing the pap touched my knee to move my leg, and said something- I can't remember what , and I just hated it. I have to go back for re-test, and I can't face it. I will do it, but I know I'm putting off making the app't.

I used to talk about what happened to me more than I do now. I dread telling new partners. I've been single for 3years, and I think part of the reason is that my ex's reaction was so horrible that I think it kind of changed things for me. Before that, I was always really aware of the fact that whilst telling people, I was making them feel better about what they were hearing, rather than letting them try to make me feel better. And I think that's kind of natural (for me). I think it's a way for me not being seen as a victim, but being the person that they already know- in control, self sufficient.
But I think it's about other stuff too.

I think I'm getting lost in this post, and I want to press the button...
I'm afraid of going to the gyno too. I get a panick attack every time I think about some one I don't know touching me. I think I'm also afraid they will find that I'm necrotic or somthing down there, or worse, cancer. I also go for six or more months without having a period.
just wanted to say hi to butterfly, and good for you for workign up the courage to post in here! i think what you said about telling people, and then you end up making THEM feel better, so true! that's partly why i don't bring it up a lot-cuase i know that i'll either have to reassure the person that i'm ok, or deal with that look in their eyes, or i'll have to make them feel better cause i bummed them out totally.

last night my new roomie was talking and she was a bit tipsy so she was ramblin' a bit, and she mentioned that her dad's an ass, and beat her sister, and it just rolled off her tongue so easily. i almost said something about me, but i just didn't feel like getting into it. still though, i like that she's open about that stuff-even though she was a bit drunk....

the last pap i had was like, a magical pap! i took my xanax, and smoked some weed, and i was still soo scared. but shockingly, it didn't hurt-like, at ALL. my doctor had these skinny little fingers and it was sooo not a big deal at all. it made me realize how bad all the other doctors i've gone to are. she was so fast and gentle and stuff, did'nt try to force anything in fast, etc. god dammit, i HATE that metal thing that they open you up with.

ugh, i was supposed to go back like, a month after my iud was inserted to have it checked. it's been 4 months....grrr. my dr. left, so now i have to see a new person so that makes it nerve-wracking.
Thanks Maddy! I sometimes don't like feeling like I'm "withholding" information from people, sort of like what you were saying about your room-mate, but then also I don't think you have to go into something that you just don't feel in the mood to talk about, just cos your friend is talking about their experiences.

I end up kind of over analysing peoples reactions, and re-hashing what I said because I like to be accurate, but then what I think/remember/is relevant changes all the time, and I find it exhausting after the conversation. So I totally think it's ok not to have it if you don't feel like it. (I was sexually abused by my dad, and then he died when I was in my late teens).

Deschatrouge...I wish I could come up with something helpful to say. I really feel for you. I am really glad you have good people on your team.
Welcome butterfly. I am really glad that you joined us.

I am now on this big kick to encourage everyone I know to go to the doctors more regularly. It is just so important. So however scared I get and however much I don't want to go, I will make my annual gyne visit every year from now on. Find a doctor that you are comfortable with. Be as open as you can with her. I think it will make all the difference.

I have gone to the Chicago Women's Health Center (LOVE THEM!!!) They let you insert the speculum yourself and open it yourself. It makes a big difference in comfort and ease. Maybe regular doctors will let us try that if we ask.
Thank you Kittenb. I'm glad too.

I decided after I posted yesterday that I'm going to call tomorrow to make my appointment. (Which sounds like procrastination doesn't it!)
I've also been setting myself some challenges which have nothing to do with anything to do with all of this (on the surface), to help give me the confidence to face the things that I'm really scared of facing up to.

Well one of those challenges was posting in here, but I guess you know what I mean.
And I think it is helping.

Anyways, thank you all again. And Kittenb, I do hope it goes ok tomorrow.

So, I did it. I made the appointment. Wierdly, they sent me a reminder that came through today, so I'd like to say that that spurred me on, but actually it was you all, so thank you. The first date that she gave me is actually my birthday. I'm going to go in a couple of days later.

.....and then I had to blow it all by getting myself involved in a conversation that would leave me feeling upset.

Dechatsrouge, I really hope you're doing ok.
Kittenb, I hope things went well today.
Hope you're having a good day too Maddy!
Yay butterfly! Great job!

ok, next tuesday i'm going to call my doctor and set up an appt to get my iud checked. blegh. y'all are inspiring me smile.gif my boss will be out tuesday so i can do calling and stuff like that.

peace out

I am so happy to see that people are making gyne appts. b/c of what I typed and b/c we are all here for each other!
That being said, I had my damn ultrasound. It was a transvaginal u/s and it was about as much fun as a dental cleansing. However, I was very upfront with the tech and she took her time and it went as painlessly as it could. You know how when you are getting a pap smear they open you up? Well for this, it feels like they open you up and then move everything around b/c they need to see all of the uterus and the ovaries. There is just some level of discomfort no matter what they do.
Did you know that it is estimated that 20-50% of all women have fibroids of some kind? They are often asymptomatic so most people don't know. It's crazy. I had no idea. So now I can't shut up about them.
Hey Kitten- Well done! I'm so glad it wasn't totally utterly awful. I hope everyone else is doing ok too.

I know some of ya'll were talking about taboos, and anger and all, and I was reading about a woman in Pakistan who is a rape survivor, and is fighting taboos, and trying to make a difference. I found her story really incredible, and inspirational. I wondered if it would be ok to put a link to the story in here. But I won't if that isn't appropriate.

Link away. I would like to read it.
me too-i think this thread is the perfect place for something like that.
Ok! So now I just need to figure out how......
Mukhtar Mai's blog

To put it in some context, which they don't go into in the article, in Pakistan you need four adult male witness in order to prove a rape took place. Adultery is illegal. So unless you get four men to come forward and corroborate your story, you'll be prosecuted (if you or the man are married). This goes into more detail:

Pakistani law

But, the really amazing thing is that Mukhtar is speaking out, and building schools for the girls in her village.
So when you've finished reading the bits that leave you feeling enraged and sad and hopeless and all that bad stuff, do click on the Schools Hope link.

Thanks again for being here.
I wish I was as strong as Mukhtar Mai.
Me too.
My "anniversary" in in two days. Creepy. I actually almost forgot this year because I'm so damn busy (almost forgot it's my birthday soon too).
But I'm feeling a lot better just in the three weeks I've seen a counsellor. I'm thinkng about writing a letter. At first I was just thinking about writing it and then not sending, but sending it is sounding more and more appealing.

A week and a half ago I was walking home down a backlane and got so angry that I grabbed a sidewalk brick and smashed it on the road. Felt good.
So today is the day it happened. It's a weird day because this is the first you I've actually acknowledged that I really was raped.

I decided to write a letter. I intend to send it. I wrote the whole thing tonight, but I'm going to send it tomorrow because I want to re-read it in the morning and add anything I forgot.

Not as scary as I thought it would be. *deep breaths*
Hi Erinjane, I really hope you're doing ok.
Sending a letter does sound like a scary/brave thing to do. I hope it helps you.
erinjane - go ahead. Smash as many bricks as you want.
I think just writing about it would be cathartic, it was for me at least.
hey erin-how'd the day go? did you end up sending it, or deciding not to?

The day was actually pretty good. I've written, but haven't sent it yet because I haven't had the time or mental energy to get into the mindset to send it. I intend to on the weekend though. I'm feeling suprsingly good about sending it.
*deep breaths*

I just hit send. I re-wrote parts, and re-worded things a thousand times. My heart is beating so fast. I re-read it over and over before I sent it. I actually wanted to mail it but I only know his mother's address and I know he doesn't live there any longer. It probably would have been easy enough to find his current address but I wanted this over with now. I kept hovering over send, until I just pushed it. I took a deep breath but now I'm shaking all over. I think I need to smoke a joint to calm myself down.

At the end I asked him for two things; to tell me he's sorry, and to admit what he did was wrong.

I think he may write back, but I also asked at the end that if he chooses to write back to please not write anything that will make this process harder for me, just keep it to himself and let me move on by myself.

Oh man. This is such a stressful situation. I just realized that I've been sitting here over this letter for over an hour. And I wrote most of it last week.
good job woman! really, you just did an AMAZING thing !! i'm so impressed by your courage, cause it's really f'in scary. definitely smoke a nice fatty to celebrate! it'll probably stir all sorts of stuff up, and might be agonizing to wait for a response. but wow, you did it! and you never have to do it again.

i think that when the smoke clears, (heh heh) you'll feel a sense of freedom and lightness, cause you aren't carrying all that anymore.

try to take today and really be extra extra good to yourself. eat your fave ice cream, whatever feels great to you.

yay! i just think it's so amazing and awesome to see someone confront, and ask the scary hard questions.

go on wit' your bad self girl! smile.gif ok, i'm a huge dork, but i'm just sitting here with a big grin on my face, cause you sent the letter!

((((hugs to survivors))))
Damn, I had a big long reply and my internet went out.

So he replied. He sent me a message around 3 and asked if he could call me. He did and he asked if we could meet, and said he never knew I felt that way. So I met him about two hours ago. I'm still shaking. He apologized and said that he was wrong. He said he never understood how big of a deal it was and that he didn't even remember I said no, but he knows that I'm a very honest person and he knew I wouldn't lie, and he was really surprised at the amount of detail I remembered. We talked about it and oher things and what we've done in the past three years. I haven't seen him since October 2003. He walked me home and asked if he could hug me and I said okay. It was weird, but it was a release too because I felt nothing when I hugged him.

I don't really know how I'll feel about this, it's too fresh to comprehend properly. I don't think I'll ever truly forgive him but I feel such a weight off that he's said he was sorry and he knows he was wrong. I had trouble speaking about it because I was so nervous. Sometimes I sort of felt he was making excuses, but I think that's part of his nature in expressing himself. For the most part though, he was really genuine about it. I feel like this is something most survivors will never get, an apology, so I feel really lucky at this moment. Still can't stop shaking though.
holy fucking crap erin! wow, that goes to show you never know what's going to happen! amazing.

it'll probably take a while to process all of this, yikes. that's amazing that he apologized and said you were right, man!
yeah, most survivors don't get that, that's for glad you did though. you took a huge risk and it really paid off.

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