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you know, i've been lurking in here, and the one thing i gotta say is that, at the very very very least, women in your situation should *tell someone*, and keep them in the loop. that acts as an informal record. i get the feeling that women put up with this kind of shit a lot, and silently, for whatever reason.

the mere fact that you've even told us ("The Forum") is a sort of record in and of itself.
I am also really glad this conversation happened. We never think something is gonna happen to us. Food for thought for everybody!
CCG, I can't speak for all the survivors, but I'm one in Survivors Space, and I think you would be welcome. This guy has victimized you..even though not physically at this point, you're AFRAID. I think that's worth coming into our will be welcomed. One thing that links us all together, whether we have actually been physically injured or not, is the shattering of the illusion of personal safety. That's hard to deal with.

So, if you have emotional ramifications stemming from this, feel free to come in and vent!
I attended a free, one-night introduction to Wen-Do several years ago. Highly recommended. I didn't register for the actual course because I was "too busy" which now of course I regret. Still, even just that intro was incredibly useful. One of the instructors had a very gentle, soft, high-ish baby kind of voice, but when she talked about the importance of vocally patrolling our boundaries and demonstrated "NO!" her voice was awesome. Loud, resonant, deep, take-no-prisoners, how-dare-you-fuck-with-me awesome. They had us practice in pairs. Your partner would touch you unexpectedly and you'd say "No!" or "Back off!" or whatever, until you got totally comfortable with bellowing.

They didn't have us practice physical defense since it was just an intro, but they told us about techniques like the heel of hand up somebody's nose one. I'll always remember that. Eyes, too. I've never understood women who say they couldn't do that to somebody. I'm thinking, hell yeah, I'll do whatever the fuck it takes to protect my person.

So a lot of it had to do with getting us comfortable with simply taking control of our space and defending it, verbally and physically. Funny how much practice it took for many of us to use even our voices assertively.

Good luck, ccg.
i'm really glad this conversation happened too, aural. i think it's good to know you are supported, that people have been there, and to encourage each other. i wub.gif busties. it makes me so happy to know that we can turn this sucky thing into a rallying point. y'all are awesome!

oh and polly i was totally thinking, "you can box their ears too. that will fuck someone up! there are so many options the rule is to do SOMETHING!
I just wanted to come in here and announce that THE BASTARD IS GONE!!!! I figured he would be since yesterday there was a new security guard who I guess was being trained by one of the regular security guards. And today the new guy is sitting at the security desk!

I got an email from my management company saying that in addition to the other complaints, my letter is the main reason that they cannot have him on site. In addition to that, it said that the security company has "removed" the security guard. I'm not sure if they just mean removed from my building or removed from the company but either way, I'm pleased.
YES! You handled your bidness with a quickness, CC_G! I could not be more proud of you or happy for you!
QUOTE(candycane_girl @ Jul 16 2009, 05:34 PM) *
, my letter is the main reason that they cannot have him on site. In addition to that, it said that the security company has "removed" the security guard. I'm not sure if they just mean removed from my building or removed from the company but either way, I'm pleased.

that is awesome news! you can exhale now.
so proud of you candy!

do me a favor and reread your posts. can you see how you were creating doubt? but look at how you did what you needed to do, and the result. you should be extremely proud of yourself. you are awesome. build on this success, k? next time remember this one, and know you are up to the challenge!

I think I learned a lot from this experience. I really need to have my guard up at all times. And like my cousin says, if someone thinks I'm a bitch because of it, too bad. I just read an article yesterday on Jezebel about men's dating guides and one of the guides actually said something smart.

It said, "Put yourself in a woman's shoes. If you were aware of stories of rape, spousal abuse, torture, and the murder of women everyday in newspapers and on TV, you'd be paranoid, too. Women need to be a bit paranoid because so many men are psycho. It simply isn't worth the risk for a woman to go home with a man who could hurt her."

And it's true! Men simply don't know what it's like to be a target just because of who you are (except maybe gay men but that's a whole other ball game).

At this point I don't think that the security guard is going to be hanging around my building looking for me or anything but no matter what, I am always going to be on guard. I never want to feel that scared again. I want to know that if I have to, I can kick some ass and take care of myself.
So. Now that we've gotten that all squared away with an educational, *happy* ending . . . anybody seeing anybody new?
lol, yes, sorry for hijacking this thread for the last week.

Um, obviously he's not new but things between me and cc_boy are pretty good! We're not full blown back into seeing each other on a regular basis but we're still hanging out and having fun and he is being a total sweetheart so I'm happy.

last night i hung out/drank with one of my ex's. we ended up making out a little bit, but here is what is bugging me. before that, she asked me how things were going with my friend t (not mr. t). i said fine. she asked how long i had dated her. i told her that she and i never did, and she said, she didn't believe me. the three women that i have dated in the last 14 years my ex last night, mr. t, and kitty, all in some way, or at sometime insinuated/hinted that i should or would date this friend.

saturday was t's birthday and she genuinely seemed happiest when i arrived. everyone seemed to want me to sit next to her. don't get me wrong, i've thought of it before, we have a similar sense of humor, we both know new jack swing/80's soul, and hip hop, we are both strangely obsessed with the weird/macabre (esp. carnivals and side show folk), and artistically, we complement each other's talent. i've found myself attracted to her now and again, and but the idea of dating her, well, i'm not sure it would work. she's as temperamental as i am, i don't know how kinky or bi she is, and too many pets for me.

my question: am i talking myself out of what could be a good thing? am i just oblivious or do my friends know something i don't? has anyone else been in a similar situation where all of their friends think x is perfect for them? should i give it a shot?
I can't say whether you should giver her a shot, gt, but I just wanted to say that I have been in that situation. Years ago when I was at a different school, I was single and had a pretty tight group of friends, and one of the guys, N, was really funny and we hit it off right away. We had the kind of relationship where we'd play off each other verbally all the time and crack everyone up. We started spending A LOT of time together and all of my friends were convinced that I liked him and that we needed to get together; they even started meddling trying to make it happen. Of course it had crossed my mind, but I ruled it out because 1) I wasn't that attracted to him physically 2) I knew he'd be hard to get along with if our relationship became any more intense (temperamental, as you said) 3) I liked our friendship as it was. I never regretted it.

Give T a chance if YOU want to; don't be pressured into it. But also, don't assume she's not kinky enough or whatever until you get with her- a lot of people are very private about their kinks.
GT, it just sounds like you are not into your friend that way. No diggity, no doubt. wink.gif
thing is i am on the fence about her. on one hand i can see her and i going a loooooooong way. she and i are simpatico in so many really good ways. we bring out the best in each other almost in the way that kitty and i used to. but timing right now is terrible for me.
GT - this is my rule about dating friends: If you have known eachother for a few years and haven't fallen in love or even dated yet, there's probably a reason. If its only because of circumstance (you were never both single at the same time, on person was moving away or going through a family crisis, whatever) then things could work out. But if circumstances of life weren't stopping you from dating before... what did stop you? I've tried to make friendships into something more in the past, when the only thing that seeed missing was a physical attraction. They didn't work out. I know physical attraction seems like a shallow thing, but an attraction that feels physical can be sparked by emotions, and it needs to be there.

I know it seems like a harsh approach. But I'm at the point in my life where I'd rather wait for the right one and maybe miss out on a pretty good relationship, than waste a few years trying to make the wrong one work. But that's easy for me to say since I'm not single! Just try to listen to your gut instinct, it usually knows what's right in these situations, even if we don't always want to listen to it!
I dated a friend once. We had known each other since high school but we were around 20 when we started going out. What had happened was that usually we hung out in our group of friends but we found ourselves wanting to spend time alone and hanging out just the two of us more and more often. We both started to feel like maybe there was something more there. But once we started dating things got awkward. It was just like, where we used to be able to talk and talk suddenly it was hard to find things to say to each other.

It only lasted 3 months. We broke up and I got over it in like, literally 12 hours which shows that it really wasn't much of a relationship to begin with. Afterward our friendship was still pretty good but it wasn't the same. I think I would have liked it if we had kept hanging out on our own but it was always with our other friends. The only regret that I have is that we haven't spoken since I moved away. I don't know what happened (I have a feeling it could have to do with an issue I had with another friend) and it makes me really sad that I don't hang out with him whenever I go home.
my issue is more internal. as my exp so succinctly put it the other day, "you've been breaking up with women for the last 12 years, saying you are gonna get your shit together. when is it gonna happen?" i need to take care of my own sh*t so i can be healthy in a relationship.

but i get crushed out on her pretty easy. we get each other, i need think i just need to really grow into myself before any relationship.
Ouch, GT. You know, it's funny, your dating life reminds me of one of my friends, my best gay. He gets really excited, dates a guy, and then things end. Then, the cycle happens again with a new guy. But, seriously, I don't waste time thinking about it 'cause it is just how he is. Even he called himself out on it. Heh. He would comment how I was the most patient of his friends. So, yeah, if taking time for yourself is what you need, then cool, but, if you meet someone you want to date, then I say go for it. Interesting side story about people who've told me they were taking time to work on things...2 very self involved people I know...aforementioned friend and my ex...both told me how they got rings for themselves as a commitment to their individuality...I guess they both forgot they were deeply ensconced in relationships at the time. Oh, the irony. rolleyes.gif

QUOTE(rudderlesschild @ Jul 22 2009, 10:54 PM) *
I would want to be with someone who wants me, who can't get enough of me. I wouldn't want anyone to ever settle for me because I made a "good match". Whomever I date deserves that, too.

Yup, yup. That's what I want. I'll take one of those please. wink.gif
GT - this is my rule about dating friends: If you have known eachother for a few years and haven't fallen in love or even dated yet, there's probably a reason. If its only because of circumstance (you were never both single at the same time, on person was moving away or going through a family crisis, whatever) then things could work out. But if circumstances of life weren't stopping you from dating before... what did stop

that's an interesting concept, i had never thought about it that way. the downside being, if the "reason" why you (generic "you") haven't fallen in love or dated is *because* of you (once again, non-specific "you"), i.e., you're (ibid) the common denominator, you're kind of screwed.

GT, i say fuckit. just do it live. DO IT LIVE!!
rudder+star, i do far better being passionate about someone but giving them a wide birth. i know what you mean about someone who can't get enough of you, i've been that, obsessive, out of control, gimme gimme gimme way about someone, and i feel gross. it feels stalker-esque and i lose myself. so, no thank you. i did that when i was younger. it's not that i would be setting for my friend, i want a partner, i want somebody on my team and i wanna be on their team. nobody can be a bigger cheerleader, more supportive or tell someone how the stars hang in their eyes, when i fall, i fall very hard, very deep. but i want someone who is my equal, who brings out the best in me, who digs on lots of the same things that i do, and still shows me new things, and i want to be that for them. but i want some measure of autonomy. that's why i loved the thing with kitty. we loved each other like there was no other, but i didn't need to hold her hand, she didn't need to hold mine. if she wanted to go get loaded with her friends, i didn't feel the need to go, unless i wanted to hang with them and vice versa. in that way, my friend is amazing. and dating her would not be settling. with her, most times i've been in a relationship or she has, but right now both of us are free, but my situation is a odd one, remember-- i am fish nor foul, i am transexual, and for a lot of people that is a hard sell. dating me isn't just a matter of being straight or gay, which most people understand, it is something new and undefined, and a woman who dates me, well they have to understand themselves in a very specific way. i challenge gender roles, rules, and meanings, even when i don't mean to. if she is straight, i'm not masculine enough, i'm not a man, no matter how butch i am, if she is a dyke, then i am too much of a man, no matter how femme, in either case they risk being socially ostracized, by dating me. their sexuality is up for a public vote. it is a very difficult road to walk not just for me but for my partner. would this friend even want to date me? i haven't the foggiest. i think i receive some signals that say yes, but the rules on these things, well they're not really written anywhere. i tend to tread down this road very carefully. rejection from friends is something that i've had more than my share of, and being told by a friend that they don't want to date me because of who i am, well, it hurts very deeply. on that i'd rather err on the side of caution.

but i don't want or need someone to fill my life, i don't want someone to distract me from my issues that i need to deal with until they come back to bite me in the ass. thing is, i still need to find my own life. and there's the rub.

y'all have been at this for 20 some years. you have a good sense of who you are, you have a solid group of friends. i don't. in girl years, i've only been at this for about 8-10 years, of that i've spent about 7-8 of it inside relationships. basically i've had about 4-5 non-continuous years on my own as a woman. i might as well be a teenager in so many ways. because of circomstances of friends not wanting to deal with my transition/ or me not wanting to deal with their bullshit on top of my own, i have 3 people in this city who have known me that long. i am just starting to establish a group of friends that i can count on, and.....i still need to grow into me..... i am still figuring out who i am in a very profound way. while i get what you are saying about your best gay, star, i think my situation is different: i don't get bored, in the relationship, it's not that the thrill is gone. my relationships generally last about 4 years-- it's not something short term. i date someone then after some time i start to realize that i have some serious, serious issues that, make it quite clear, that i cannot be in a relationship in a healthy way. i am adult enough to tell the person i am dealing with, that i really need to deal with my issues and not wait until things go up in flames.
GT, ah, things are much clearer now that you've shared what issues you've encountered in your previous relationships and on your own. It's good to know that you've realized you need to work on these issues for the relationship you want for yourself.
thanks star. smile.gif i think i kinda clarified things in my head too. it would be great to start something with my friend, but part of the point of breaking up w/ mr.t was to get this sh*t taken care of so i could be happy and healthy in my next relationship, no matter who it's with.

i have to remember: i gots to take care o' bidness.
GT, I think it's wise to know when you should be taking time out for yourself. The mister and I knew each other for years before getting together. He had a thing for me and just waited for me to realise it too (albeit we both had several other partners in the intervening years); timing was everything for us.

What's for you won't go past you. If you and T would be good together, it will be that much better once you are happy with your approach to relationships.

Also, while I take your point about being relatively less experienced than those of us dating from the same identity position from the start, as it were, I also think the self-examination that your transitioning (is this the right phrase?) has brought about has increased your awareness of yourself and how you work. I mean, I crashed into flings and relationships without thinking for over a decade, hurting people in the process and overall not taking anything that seriously. It took me a long time to get my relationship shit together, then a good few years after that for the mister and I to stop butting heads. I had no externally apparent need to examine my behaviour, so for most of my 20s, I didn't.

Still, no harm to keep in contact with T while you're figuring your stuff out.... smile.gif
Hi Ladies, Its been awhile since I've posted but I just needed some advice. Long story short, I was sexually assulted last year in April, my love interest at the time who I was kinda seeing was out of the country when this happened. He started dating me about three weeks later, and really helped me deal with my issues and trauma. We broke up July 2008, when he graduated and moved to Israel for 6 months. I knew going in that things would have to end when he left, and we did have a short, but happy relationship. When he left, we talked every day for hours online and on the phone, but lived in an undefined don't ask don't tell policy. We werent together. I always thought I was so attached to him because he helped me deal with my issues, but maybe its because we had a happy clean break up and still talked and had feelings.

We had a happy reunion and in my mind a rekindling of feelings when he returned and I visited. The next week he came to campus where I was still attending school, and found out I had slept with someone he knew. Not friends, just someone he knew. It was a one time thing, we were friends, but I didn't want to date this guy, although he liked me. So, my ex blew up, yelled at me publically, acted like I affronted him etc etc. When I knew that he broke up with me and I did nothing wrong. I was so upset that the man who helped me through my assault could treat me so hypocritically. So I decided that I was done with that and wouldn't speak to him again. How dare he judge me or my self worth based on my single sex life? How dare he have a sexual double standard for men and women ( since I know he was sleeping around abroad) ?

I then met someone else, who is my current boyfriend. He is absolutely wonderful and we are very happy. I since talked to the ex online and told him what a horrible person he was. But somehow after having it out we ended up being friends after the fight and he admitted he overreacted. My current boyfriend would rather I didnt talk to my ex, and I think that is understandable, but I don't think its right for him to tell me who I can speak to, so he lets me do what I want, but I know it hurts him if I do. When I talk to my ex, I can't help how I feel. I obviously still like him, and get happy when we talk. He usually throws in lines about his feelings for me (in past tense) which are torture, but usually we speak just as friends. I feel so guilty. I know my new man loves me. I just don't for whatever reason have those same feelings all the time when I am with him. Maybe its just because I was talking to my ex for almost a year online and we got really close? Should I stop talking to him altogether? Should I just move on, because he did commit a deal breaker? Why do I chose to hurt the man who treats me so well? I just feel like what ever I do its wrong. Any advice would help.
Hi runnergirl!

I have a lot of thoughts on your post and, quite frankly, time on my hands, so I have organised my comments under the following sub-headings smile.gif:

Your ex
If he was sleeping with other people, then there is absolutely no justification for him denying you the same right. He's apologised for 'overreacting', but that implies he still thinks he had a right to be upset. You say that he makes you feel happy, but also guilty, he 'usually' brings up his past feelings for you but also that you 'usually' just talk as friends. I don't think you two are friends. You are exes, which means that you still have feelings for each other. If you want to move on, you do need to stop speaking to him for a while. If you're reluctant to cut contact because you have hopes of getting back together at some point (though honestly, the public yelling does not sound like a great character trait), then you owe it your new boyfriend to figure that out now.

Your new
Don't compare the two boys! Of COURSE you still have feelings for your ex - that doesn't mean anything about your feelings for the new boy. That said, what are your feelings for the new boy? Do you feel obliged to be with him because he loves you and treats you well, or does he give you happy fuzzy feelings? If the ex was out of the picture would you still have nagging doubts? You don't have to feel overwhelmed with love every moment you're together, but are you excited to see him?

One of the things that stood out to me about your post was that you come across as quite passive. You say 'he dated me', 'he left', 'somehow we ended up being friends'. It sounds like your ex called all the shots, and got his knickers in a twist when you did something he disagreed with. I think he throws in the comments about his feelings to keep you dangling on his hook. Don't let him dictate the terms of your relationship.

One the same theme, was there much of a gap between these relationships? Did you pursue the new boy, or did he decide to date you? Do you even want to be in a relationship right now? Sometimes the answer to 'which boy?' is 'neither!'.

Good luck!

P.S. If you want to talk about your assault, I think you will get some excellent support in Survivor's Space.
Persi's advice is pretty awesome, I only have two thoughts to add:

Never mind whether it was a bad thing to have slept with a guy (which it obviously isn't anyways!), the fact that he yelled publicly is a pretty bad sign. It means either (a) he has no control over his temper, or (B) he was intentionally using public embarassment to try to exert control over you. Either way, this behaviour is a sign of bad things that would happen in this relationship in the future. It was very sweet of him to have helped you through a traumatic event, but be wary, some guys know they can take advantage of a girl if she feels that she "owes" him for being nice once. I have never met the guy so I can't say what his initial intentions with you were, but just look out for yourself first, never feel guilty just because he helped you out once, when it seems he is trying to have control over your sexuality now. That's not cool.

And secondly, you say "we are very happy." never mind "we," are you happy? And you say you know he loves you, but you don't say that you love him. Those are the things you should be thinking about in this relationship, not how it compares to someone else. It's always possible to have feelings for more than one person at once, and you feelings for guy #1 don't negate your feelings for guy #2.
I moved this summer to be with a guy that I know through my sister. We both knew I would only be there for the summer and now I'm leaving in a week. I keep asking him about what is going to happen once I leave and he keeps saying "I don't know." I'm kind of beginning to fear that he won't come to visit me once I'm gone. We will be living about 8 hours away from each other by freeway.

I also told this guy that I love him and I haven't gotten one back, that's the biggest reason I think he's not going to come see me once I'm gone.

I made a big change moving for the summer away from my friends and family to be with him and I don't think he's willing to make any sort of changes for me. So. . . my question is. . .

Should I just let what happens happen?

Should I talk to him about my fears?

If so, how should I approach it without freaking him out?

What is the best course of action?
Twelve, I'm the kind of person who cannot stand to leave things just hanging in the air. If it was me, I'd carefully broach the subject and ask what kind of expectations he has and what kind of expectations you have. I would let him know that you feel like you made some big changes for him over the summer and you're wondering if he's willing to make a commitment to you. I don't know the whole situation, but from what you've written it sounds like he may be apprehensive. I think the two of you should talk this out because I know there's nothing more frustrating than taking off from someone you care about and having no guarantee how they feel about you or where they want to go next.
ladies, i hope this isn't untoward as i've been checked out of the lounge for quite a while, but i'm really struggling with this right now and could use some outside opinions and you have always been wonderful for that.

when a guy says that he doesn't want to make a casual relationship more serious due to various larger problems in his life, can you ever take it at face value? or is "not right now" always feeling-saving code for "sorry, i don't like you enough"?

the guy i was dating (pretty casually, for about three months) and i had The Talk--unfortunately prematurely. i wasn't sure what i wanted with him but wanted to see where it would go. he presumed (incorrectly at that point) that i was itching to be upgraded to girlfriend, and gently made it known that he didn't want that at the moment, his excuse being that his life is currently overwhelming. he also made it clear that he really enjoyed my company and didn't want to stop hanging out with me.

having ruined 2 years of my life by continuing to hang out and sleep with an ex who said he didn't want a relationship, i decided that i didn't want to risk going through that again and broke it off completely. he said he understood but that he would miss spending time with me.

the thing is, i know his life *is* rough right now. he's playing catch-up at work from a long vacation and has recently had some projects that didn't go well, just moved house, got a new pet and deals with a chronic illness on a daily basis.

i was initially proud of myself for putting my foot down and deciding not to stick around for a guy who might not eventually give me what i might eventually want, but since it's been over i've been regretting my decision a lot. it's recent so i'm still raw and not looking at things clearly, but part of me really wants to go back and change my mind. it may just be the loss talking, but i miss him WAY MORE than i expected to and am sort of realizing that my feelings for him are a lot stronger that i had thought they were.

i was happy with where we were at and don't need to be "upgraded" to anything. i'm happy to lay low while someone i care about goes through some shit, but only if there really *is* potential for a future development when things are clearer. if this is a case of bad timing, i don't want to lose the chance of something down the road with this guy. basically, right now i feel like i don't wanna go down without fighting for it at all. but a huge part of me just smells bullshit, since when i'm going through a bad time, having someone in my life who cares about me is a good thing. i'm having trouble figuring out whether my breaking it off entirely was smart self-protection, or knee-jerk overreaction based on the bad experience with my ex...

do you think it's smart to revisit this? or should i just cut my losses and move on?
mouse - I say go with your gut, which like you said, is telling you "bullshit." don't second guess yourself. Also, on a practical tip, you definitely are interested in something - even just "seeing where it goes," which is a step beyond just spending time together. And at this point, if you were to acquiesce to "just hanging out," then I'd say there's a 99.9% chance it would definitely NOT go anywhere, because you'll basically be saying with your actions that only keeping it at that level is just fine with you.

with the distance you have now, you're realizing you miss him way more than you thought, and have stronger feelings for him than you thought you did...... let him have the chance to possibly feel those feelings, too. Or not. Think of it in this way - by doing what you did, you came across as a woman who knows what she wants and isn't willing to put up with bullshit to get it. And it sounds like to me you didn't do it in a giving him an ultimatum kind of way, but in a nice, gentle, girly, you manner. Kudos to you for having that balance. Remember, you said it yourself. You're willing to let someone go through their stuff, but only if there *is* a possiblity of it going further. Well, if there is a possibility of things going further, he'll let you know.

as Kahlil Gibran said: "And ever has it been known that love knows not its own depth until the hour of separation." If he feels he wants to take it further, he'll be back. And if not, you'll have your answer.

I think you did the right thing, and it sounds to me like you're being real with yourself. Good for you for not accepting less than you want and less than you're worth.

thank you, zoya. i think you're probably right, it just sucks to hear.

i do want to clarify though, that by "hanging out" i don't mean like, playing video games and making out. it wasn't sort of collegey "dating", it was Dating. he would take me out to dinner at nice places, we spent time with his coupled friends, went to museums, romantic walks, blah blah blah. not that that really changes anything, but i just didn't want to confuse with semantics. when i say "casual" i just mean we only saw each other once or twice a week, not that the dates themselves were casual.
mouse - oh no, I picked up on that dynamic from your post. All the more reason to stand your ground.
mouse, how recently did you break things off?

As for the whole "bad timing" thing sometimes it really can be true. He at least made it known that he would really miss spending time with you rather than just being nonchalant and saying "see ya". I have known a lot of guys (not romantically, just friends) who when they are going through tough times they just disappear. In fact, my (female) best friend does this as well. It used to drive me crazy because there would be times when she just wasn't available and when we would finally talk she would say "I'm sorry, I was going through a tough time." My response was always, "Well then call me so that we can talk about it!" That's how I am. If something is bothering me or I'm just going through a lot then I need someone around. My friend, on the other hand, just retreats into herself and cuts off contact with people. I just wanted to offer you a different perspective.

I think that once or twice a week is a decent amount to see someone, but that's from my perspective as a student who has to balance a job, studying, working out, seeing friends, etc.

I can understand your problem. It seems like there's no point in seeing him if it won't go anywhere but you can't exactly say "commit to me or I'm outta here". Maybe just give it some more time and see you feel. If you keep things casual for now maybe eventually it could blossom into something more.
with the distance you have now, you're realizing you miss him way more than you thought, and have stronger feelings for him than you thought you did...... let him have the chance to possibly feel those feelings, too. Or not. Think of it in this way - by doing what you did, you came across as a woman who knows what she wants and isn't willing to put up with bullshit to get it.


I think you did the right thing, and it sounds to me like you're being real with yourself. Good for you for not accepting less than you want and less than you're worth

Again, couldn't have said it better myself.

Name your price, mouse.
i love you ladies. thanks for the input.

ccgirl, it happened thursday. so, very very recently.

i think for sure there is validity in standing one's ground and refusing to settle for less than you wanted...but i didn't want to be his girlfriend. down the line that would have been a nice option, but i wasn't asking for it or even wanting it yet. i didn't feel like we had reached that point yet--we were still getting to know each other, getting to be comfortable with each other. i've never taken a relationship so slowly before, but it felt right for this one.

part of me feels a little like i got fired from a job i hadn't even accepted.

the choice to end things unequivocally was mine...we actually parted from The Talk saying that we would take a break and lay low for a couple weeks and then reconvene to talk again, but the next day i felt wary so i fired off a "sorry, that's not a good idea after all, but take care" email. he responded saying he didn't like the idea of not seeing me, but understood, and hoped our paths would cross again in some way or another.

its based in feeling like if i want something bad enough, i should fight for it...and i feel like the breakup (which was my choice...he hadn't brought up issues in order to end anything, that was my call) is making me feel like i want it bad enough.

i think my main worry is that i didn't make the fact that i want him clear--in fact i may have done the opposite, trying to hammer home the point that i hadn't felt we'd reached the point for A Talk yet at all. a teeny bit of me still feels like maybe i need to let him know that i care about him as much as (right now) i feel that i do....but then another part of me knows that that probably wouldn't change anything.

i'm giving myself the two weeks anyway to mull it over and fully decide whether i DO actually REALLY REALLY REALLY want him--enough to fight for and risk losing my power position or dignity for--or whether it's just the loss of the relationship in general. but you've given me some great points to toss around while i do so. it helps a lot.

I think Zoya's spot-on.

In saying "not right now", he was willing to take the risk that you'd leave, which I think means that his feelings aren't that strong. Sorry!

I'm guessing he brought this up sooner than you would have because (a) his illness means considers things a long way in advance, and (cool.gif he cares enough about your feelings to not want to lead you on.


ETA: Cross-posted with mouse.
QUOTE(mouse @ Sep 14 2009, 09:38 PM) *
i think for sure there is validity in standing one's ground and refusing to settle for less than you wanted...but i didn't want to be his girlfriend. down the line that would have been a nice option,

yes, but you are saying that you DO want to be someone's girlfriend at some point- and he would be a nice option for a boyfriend. Yes, so you feel the timing was a bit premature to cross that bridge, but would that really change anything in what you want in your life? Three months is not a long time, but it's not a short time either, in terms of stepping it up. And it sounds like you were spending quality time together, and he was bringing you around coupled friends, etc.

I guess what I"m saying that is if this is indeed a case of "bad timing" in terms of "the talk," then I don't think you have anything to worry about. Something like bad timing isn't going to fuck up something that both parties want. And I'm not talking him coming to you and saying that yes, he wants to be official right now, etc. I'm talking about him mulling this all over, and HIM being the one to say "you are fucking cool, I really do want to see where this goes" and taking it from there.

I have issues with the whole phrase "fight for what you want" or "fight for someone." Why the fuck should someone fucking cool like all you girls have to fight for what you want, when what you want is perfectly justifiable to NOT have to struggle for?

At the very least, if you do still want this in a few weeks, and you do talk, I'd make it very clear that you aren't talking about jumping straight into being boyfriend / girlfriend this second, that you enjoy spending time with him, but that the future is important to you, so lets see how things go over the next few (however long, months?? whatever you think) and you can decide together where it's going and to continue if there's something more serious that you're both interested in and want.

you've set yourself up as a woman who knows what she wants, in a nice way. don't give that up at any cost. 1) a woman who is cool and nice but knows what she wants and, in a nice way, won't sell her self short is really fucking attractive to the right kind of guy 2) if you do, then you've made that subtle switch between being the one who is the one doing the selecting, (ie: the one being courted) to the one being selected (the one doing the courting, or "chasing") it may be a lot more subtle in this case than in your previous situations, but it's still there in some form, and you and I know (cause I've been in the same situation as your past experiences) where that dynamic gets you.

again, trust your intuition. I dont' think you were knee-jerk, I think that you were being intuitive. and again, we're talking what sounds like a nice, quality guy who says he likes spending time with you. You've given him the gift of being able to miss you. You don't have to compromise a thing. I think you'll be just fine.
zoya, i do get what you're saying. and i agree with it. it just is fucking hard to hear right now--though i'm doing a lot better today than i was doing a couple days ago, and honestly your voice of reason is part of it.

as far as fighting for--i disagree. what i want right now (him being on the same page as me) clearly *ISN'T* happening without a struggle, whether that's justifiable or not. and i feel like the things i didn't do--namely, make it crystal clear how much i felt for him--means i didn't put a lot of effort into convincing him that we were worth a shot. i worry that since i was so hellbent on correcting his presumption that i wanted to be Girlfriend, i made him feel like i didn't like him all that much anyway, so if he does come around to wanting me back, he'll refrain on grounds that i don't actually like him enough.

that said, that logic is dubious and furthermore those tactics have *never* worked for me in the past. i doubt they'll work for me now. i'm moving on.

thanks for the advice, it really helps. thanks for making me feel strong. you guys are stellar, as always.
Not sure if this belongs in here.. BUT I need to vent and it seems that you ladies (and men) have quite a few
words of wisdom.
LONG LONG story short... my boy and I dated for a year. He broke up with me stating that he was just not ready for the same level of commitment (moving in, marriage, etc.).. He is a couple of years younger than me and surrounded by immaturity, so this did not come as a surprise but BROKE my heart nonetheless.

I was a mess for months. He would text me occasionally, but I was never able to respond. I just could not stomach being friends. I finally decided that I needed to move. In a moment of stupidity, I text the boy to inform him of the move. We ended up seeing each other and spending the last two nights before I moved together.

I moved.. CROSS COUNTRY and we talked for a week or so before HE decided that he was in fact ready for a relationship. He was so so sorry that he had ever left and he wanted a relationship (long distance) until he make the move himself.
To add fuel to the fire, he got a DUI a couple weeks ago and now cannot make any plans to move until his court date.

SO, to the main part of the story.. getting back together is hard, but getting back together LONG DISTANCE seems nearly impossible. I find myself texting him constantly... calling constantly...getting upset if he doesn't respond for a couple hours.. I am driving both of us crazy. I am so scared that if I don't know where he is at all times that he will disappear...
I could go on and on...
But does anyone have any advice on how to stop BEING CRAZY!!!
I know that my behavior is pushing him away, but I can't seem to stop.

Mouse, how are you doing? If you read this, give us an up-date.

LolaMartini, not to worry - that definitely was not too long.

That's a really strange situation you're in there. I know first-hand how hard LDRs can be, but I don't know what it's like to try to heal that sort of rift when you're so far apart. No wonder you're going a little crazy! Unfortunately, the only thing that's bound to help you now is good ol' fashioned will power. It might help you if you have a regular appointment for phone calls with your boyfriend (for instance, you can agree to talk on the phone every night at 8pm for at least 45 minutes). Then you can limit yourself to just 1 or 2 text messages a day. It will be hard, sure, but it'll be worth it.

When is your boyfriend's court date? What are the potential outcomes? If he has to stay in his home state, can you move back to be with him?

I lived through the LDR thing with my husband for a year before we got married. It sucks in lots of ways, but it isn't all bad. I think the biggest bonus is that it forces you to focus on your communication skills. If you can keep up great communication & stay in love with each other across the miles, your relationship is that much more likely to thrive when you're together again.
roseviolet- thank you!
Unfortunately, at this point, it seems that I have pushed so much that now he is claiming the need for some "space"... not a breakup apparently, but just some breathing room from he calls my incessant need to be in touch. To me, that's the breakup BEFORE the breakup.
I am just questioning the whole thing. It just reads like some horrible teenage television program... Girl Meets Boy. Boy Leaves Girl. Boy Comes Back. Girl is Crazy. Girl is doormat... etc. etc. etc.

As we speak, I am staring at my cellphone and wondering why the fuck he is purposefully ignoring me. I probably sound like a basketcase, but I am in a new city with not a single friend and a "boyfriend" who needs space. It's all just getting lonely and I am so unsure of what to do
oh, rose, thank you. i'm fine. i'm keeping busy. i've been out with two new guys since the break up, both of whom i think i'll probably see again, which helps--since a lot of my desperation at leaving a relationship is the knowledge that historically i tend to have epic, epic dry spells. i don't feel the same about either of them as i do about the ex, of course, but a lot of my feelings for someone tend to develop out of familiarity. i wasn't infinitely charmed by the ex to begin with.

which is something i'm trying to keep in mind, and just trying to think of it as a learning experience and a nice time that just didn't end up working out. for the most part i'm fine, i just don't like thinking about the fact that i'll probably never get to hang out with him again. i've never had a breakup before that was this clean--they've always been gone back to and revisited and hashed out. so that's a little disconcerting, but probably healthier in the long run. two weeks will be this thursday but i don't think i'll be contacting him and i don't think i'll be hearing from him either.

lolamartini: i agree with rose. being Not-Crazy is really willpower and distraction. KEEP YOURSELF BUSY. go on walks and explore your new neighborhood, and LEAVE YOUR PHONE AT HOME when you do. seriously, turn your phone off when you don't need it. you'll still be worrying "did he call did he call did he call???" but you'll get a break from the "WHY HASN'T HE CALLED" for the entire time your phone is off. and if he does call and you don't answer, well, like everyone has been telling me, he'll miss you.

technology has really made relationships weird--since you know you have the ability to reach each other at any second of any day, it's that much harder to know that the option is there but not being used. but it sounds like you do need to pull back. you're freaked and sad, understandably, but you're also in a position to reinvent yourself. a new city is one of the coolest places to be--everything can be exciting to you. i don't know if you have a job yet, but ask your coworkers what they do for fun. maybe they'll even invite you along. check out local newspapers,, etc. talk to people you meet. "hey, i'm new in town and i was wondering _____" is a great ice-breaker for anyone, and it's a nice excuse to take away the awkwardness of chatting up a stranger. go to coffee shops and grill the baristas. you'll probably end up making new friends to take your mind of missing the boy, and you'll have more to talk to him about when he does call than "omg i miss you when are you coming why won't you call".

give him some space, but take some of your own too. you're in the perfect position to--you have so much to learn about your new city and so many new people to meet. think about it this way: it's statistically impossible that you WON'T end up eventually making new friends, which means that THEY ARE OUT THERE RIGHT NOW. they're out there in your city, doing *something* even as i type these words--maybe eating some toast? maybe watching a movie?--and you just have to get out there and find them. that way, your boyfriend will be the icing on the cake--not what you NEED to be happy.
Okay, I don't know if this is the right place to post this and I'm probably out of line for even bringing it up in the first place but a close friend of mine just told me that she slept with someone who is not her boyfriend recently. I remember in the confessions thread there was a discussion about cheating once and I never got the chance to ask something. For any busties who have cheated (even just one time as opposed to having a long term affair) I'm just wondering how you could do it. I'm trying not to sound judgmental but I can't imagine having sex with someone else and not feeling bad about it. I think it would eat away at me even if it was a one time slip up. Mostly I keep thinking about the Sex and the City movie when Samantha says that anyone can slip up once. I think that's true, especially in long term relationships. But I just can't imagine hurting someone that way. Can any busties please give me some insight into this? What led up to cheating in your experiences?
Mouse, that was stellar advice. I especially loved the bit about toast!

LolaMartini, there's something about LDR's that always make them sound like they come straight out of a bad soap opera. And, as you know, they have a tendency to drive a person a bit crazy! But you can get through this. Print out Mouse's advice & study it. Put it in your purse and read it occasionally. Also, I think it would help if you apologize to the boy and maybe tell him that you've never experienced anything like this before, so you weren't sure on the best way to behave, how often to call, and so on. Discuss the phone appointment thing with him (it REALLY does help!). Then just try your best to be strong and go on with your day.

CCGirl, I am ashamed to admit it, but I've been a cheater in the past. How it happens is complicated and can vary from person to person. Let me think about my response for a bit & I'll post again in here later.

rv, I know there can be a lot of different factors leading to cheating like a lack of sex, being in a rut or just feeling like the relationship isn't really fulfilling. I can't be too judgmental because I've been the other woman before. But I guess when I was the other woman I felt like it was really the guy's issue and not mine because I wasn't in a relationship with anyone.
CCG, I thought about your question and realized that my case of cheating probably falls into that "one time slip-up" category you mentioned. As soon as the sex was over, I felt like absolute SHIT. The lowest of the low. I don't know how people can cheat around and continually sleep with other people over and over again and feel happy about it. I think I could only understand it if the people involved were attracted to the drama of the situation & were turned on by being bad.

Then again, maybe they've just sadly found themselves in a situation where they're in love with 2 people at the same time & genuinely cannot decide which is the better partner. I guess that could be considered emotional infidelity. I'm definitely guilty of that. However, I don't think that's part of your question, so I'll leave it for another time.
Mouse, yay for dates!

Ccg, I've not cheated but I could easily imagine making a one-off mistake (probably alcohol-fuelled). I was talking to my housemate the other day about this exact topic, and she once cheated in the middle of a nine-year relationship. She felt like hell for about a year, but the fact that she felt so horrible meant that she never did it again, and she worked really hard to resolve the issues with her boyfriend. Just because someone has cheated and not confessed doesn't mean they don't feel bad about it.

Lolamartini, I'm not surprised you're acting crazy! It must be very difficult to feel secure in your boyfriend's feelings and commitment to you when he keeps changing his mind. Given that he broke up with you, I think it's his responsibility to convince you that he's serious about making this relationship with you, and that includes being understanding about your communication needs.

You said that you texted him 'in a moment of stupidity', and that it was his decision to get back together. Given that you've got a fantastic opportunity to make a new life for yourself (wih great advice below from mouse), do you think this relationship is worth the time, effort and mental and emotional energy you'll need to sacrifice to keep it going? I moved away for university and kept up a difficult LDR relationship that sapped my energy and meant that I didn't have much time or money to spend on new friends or interests - looking back, I wish I'd had the guts to break it off before I left.

I'm not saying you should break it off, but that the two of you should talk seriously about this, and the amount of work involved. He should know that he's asking a lot of you, and you should consider whether he's going to be able to give you what you want in a relationship.

Oh, Persiflager, I know that a lot of people feel guilty about it. I should have clarified that my friend actually said that she didn't feel guilty. She said she would never do it again and isn't going to tell her bf but that she was surprised that she didn't feel guilty at all. I know that things with her boyfriend are far from perfect but I still can't imagine being sober and not stopping myself.
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