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ok, let's go out vs let me take you out. i get it.
a fine line though, no? lots of room for miscommunication i think. i still assume nothing and bring my own cash.
My friend just texted me with "let me kidnap you on thursday night" and I briefly thought of this thread. Why pays during a kidnapping? :-)
so my guy friend says a few interesting things i'd like to bounce off you girls. (he's a philosophy major, and i'm not, so if it's worded awkwardly its my fault):
1. "guys have more power in the relationship then girls. girls dress to please, and guys don't; how often do you see a gorgeous girl with a scrub? And nine times out of ten, the girl, even with a hot guy, is still better put together then he is. If a guy dresses well, girls flock."
2. "treat a girl well, you'll get it back in return (for the guys) but a girl- well, she's still stuck with a guy. it's easier for a guy to find a nice girl then vice versa."
3. our culture is obsessed with sex being the only way to express oneself. but when we casn't (single, old age) we go crazy. why not be like (i am not sure if it was socrates or aristotle) and channel that energy into philosophy/other mode of expression like art? so sure, sex is necessary, but other things can be satisfying to that point as well.
anyways, this was interesting to me, and he talked for a good hour on these things, so it's cut drastically..... but.....what say you?
1) i think girls dress to please other girls. as for a guy dressing well and girls flocking, well, that depends on where you live and what taste you have. i mean what exactly does "well" constitute? i think society places far more importance on outward appearance for women then for men. this really is no surprise to me.
2) yeah there are alot of assholes, but i know alot of batshit crazy girls that do absolutely insane things that frankly, incite guys to be assholes. i dont think you can categorize "nice" by gender
3) i like sex, and i personally NOT try to channel it into some other thing. but hey i am sure some people would be successful at it. to each their own in this case.
I'm not sure about your friend's theories... Hmmmm...

1. "guys have more power in the relationship then girls."
Yes. If you give up your own power. But only then. The depending and desperate partner is the one without power in a relationship, no matter if it's the guy or the woman.

2. " it's easier for a guy to find a nice girl then vice versa."
This is a sad myth that many women believe and what the media is telling you. Absolutely not true. Take it from somebody who is married the third time and had about half a million boyfriends. There are 3 billion men on this planet. And lots of them are great. The path to relationship heaven is a good bullshit detector, courage and selfrespect.

3. "our culture is obsessed with sex....and so on"
Sure our culture is obsessed with sex. But you are not your culture and you can chose however you want to express yourself sexually.
guys have more power in some respects because they are more intrisically powerful. but, there is a balance there, as with everything else. girls are very powerful in their own way. i mean, hello, we're the ones with the pussy. and no, i don't in any way mean that in a manipulative conniving way. use your imagination with that one.

girls are nicer than guys. biologically, we're made to take care of the babes, boys are supposed to go out and hunt and bash other invading guys on the head. but again, there is a balance there. their 'niceness' may just have a more fiercesome edge to it and be a little harder for a sweet girl to see. besides, we don't like boys that are Too nice.

of course we are obsessed with sex, it's our Prime Biological Directive. but we also are a thinking animal and so can choose what we direct our energy into. i haven't had sex with anyone but myself for a few months now and i'm still pretty satisfied and happy, not pulling my hair out or crying myself to sleep or anything (not yet anyhow :-) ). i could let it make me crazy i suppose, but why bother? i'm busy with other stuff (redirecting my energy).
i dont know if you went to grammar schoool, high school, or college pepper but if you did i dont know why you still think girls are nicer than guys. i see alot of biological determinism in your thinking and frankly, its a dangerous line to walk. women are made to take care of babes and guys go out hunting and thats why girls are nicer? that truly doesnt make much sense at all even if you do believe in biological determinism.
hmm, i hope i'm reading the snark into that all on my own. what does my schooling have to do with anything at all? (grade school, highschool, college, university and other, btw.) that's kind of low, isn't it? we're having a talk here, let's stick to the subject and not make it personal.

yes, women tend towards nuturing and men towards aggressive action. gross generalization but that's what this conversation is about. men have higher levels of testosterone than women do and are therefore more aggressive which can certainly be seen as not as nice behaviorally speaking.

1. Pleasing and agreeable in nature: had a nice time.
2. Having a pleasant or attractive appearance: a nice dress; a nice face.
3. Exhibiting courtesy and politeness: a nice gesture.
4. Of good character and reputation; respectable.
5. Overdelicate or fastidious; fussy.
6. Showing or requiring great precision or sensitive discernment; subtle: a nice distinction; a nice sense of style.
7. Done with delicacy and skill: a nice bit of craft.
8. Used as an intensive with and: nice and warm.
9. Obsolete.
1. Wanton; profligate: “For when mine hours/Were nice and lucky, men did ransom lives/Of me for jests” (Shakespeare).
2. Affectedly modest; coy: “Ere... /The nice Morn on th' Indian steep,/From her cabin'd loop-hole peep” (John Milton).

i'd say, by description, that women act nicer than men. not that men can't be nice, kind, considerate, sweet, etc. but those are traits more associated with women imo. how often do we wish that we could date our girlfriends instead of trying to find a boyfriend who isn't a dick? i don't know about you but i say it and hear from my girls all the time.

no big, if you don't agree present your arguement. that's what we're here for.

I think women are certainly socially conditioned to be "nicer," on surface, for fear of being called a bitch and all that (oh noes!), but in so-called "Western" society there's little actual need for chest-pounding male-protect-female behavior.

(However, if you want to jump back several thousand millenia to human expansion out of Africa and our slow climb up from the bottom of the food chain, you'll find the hunter-gatherer/early agrarian societies WERE like that...especially since proving paternity was impossible, so males would protect the women and kids because there was a possibility that one of them was his genetic offspring...and yes, women with infants and small children were at risk and needed the protection. Take a look at ape troupes and how they function and you've got a nice glimpse at early humankind's lives. That's just a fact of prehistory).

Whether or not it should be extrapolated to describe non-agrarian-based societies today is questionable, though. I think there is a certain point at which one's brain needs to trump one's biology (or expected behavior based on that biology). For instance, I'm a female. I never feel protective of babies or small children, nor do I wish to have any of my own. In some people's views, that makes me some sort of freak of nature.

Personally, I hate all the generalization about female and male behavior. Can't we just say "people"? Like katiebelle, in your take on the list, your number two said some girls incite some guys to act like assholes. That goes both ways, doesn't it? People can incite people to act like assholes...although that doesn't preclude anyone from taking responsibility for their own actions. That just sort of struck a chord with me, as it sounded almost like victim-blaming, as the logical jump I made from your phrasing was "You asked for it." I'm hoping that's not what you meant.

(Ha, ven, I think the kidnapper pays).
maybe i wasnt clear when i was talking about schooling pepper. in my experience with school, it was the girls who were the meanest, pettiest, most selfish brats. esp in grammar and high school. i wont say we arent conditioned to act like that, but nevertheless, that is the case. i wasnt taking a hit at your level of education, which i would think would be relatively obvious since clearly, most people go to grammar school at the very least.

in any case, i agree with luci in that you simply cannot make those generalizations anymore now in 2006 in western society, it's ludicrous and highly insulting i think as a matter of fact. i feel the same way as luci about babies and small children, and i know MANY other women like ourselves. part of the reason women like ourselves are made to feel like freaks of nature is precisely BECAUSE of the biological determinism you speak of. you are not normal, or a "nice" girl if you dont want to be a breeder with 5 kids. all those traits you speak of that constitute "nice" are socially conditioned and in no way related to actual biology.

luci when i used that example it was more to make the point that women very often are not "nice". for me yes, people incite people to be assholes but that was just to make a point that women aren't *always* blameless when it comes to guys being less "nice". this is vice versa, i just dont think you can say more guys are assholes than girls, its just in different ways.

as for me, i rather date an asshole than date one of my girlfriends (who i love) and deal with the overdramatic ridiculousness that they often create in their lives. but thats just me, and thats why i have more guy friends then girlfriends. which again, i dont think i am in some tiny minority.

but hey whatever floats your boat. truly, when both women and men act like idiots, they do it in entirely different ways. ways that i think, are often socially conditioned. i dont think any of its biological (bc like luci said at some point brain and social conditioned trumps biology) at this stage in our history, and to say it is is to set a dangerous precedent, one that has been used to keep women "in their place" for centuries

Yeah, I hate the generalisations too, when they take over. I think I agree with Tatina.

The three points all sound way too fatalistic to me. I for one am not going to put up with a relationship where I am doing all the impressing and my partner feels no need to be nice to me. WTF?!?! We do not have to.
Moreover, dressing well is not the only type of effort or the only pressure in dating.

3 is... people's real life sexual behaviour is not what prime time TV might lead us to believe. I have recently been studying this stuff and yes it's true that sex comes up as a way of individual expression in the past couple of centuries, but if we look around there are plenty of successful happy people who have struck a balance and are doing creative things.

(Venetia, when I was kidnapped on my 21st birthday, the 'nappers paid - but YMMV; it has been a long time since then!)

I agree with Luci on the generalizations. It's ludicrous to pretend we can quantify an entire gender with any fairness, any more than we can (or SHOULD) attempt to define any race, creed, or nationality.
glassk, I agree with your "generalizations." unfortunately.
I am so not touching this with another broad's ten foot pole.
wow! thank you all for your thoughtful responses.
they are certainly generalizations- and there are truly exceptions.

1. And I think it is important to know that we can be the exception, as Tatiana mentioned. And to be aware that we are doing so- so as not to put up with bullshit. I hate disagreement, and have/do unfortunately put up with a lot of shit- I am trying to accept less bs. And it is true, as katiebelle said that girls dress to please other girls. It would be nice if more guys would dress to please us girls, too.

2.katiebelle- and sometimes, guys are easier to get along with girls, because even when they aren't "nicer" they don't always require us to be perfect. as women, we ARE basically wonderful- why wouldn't they want us? And I have fallen in love with a girl, even though I'm straight, just because she was so much more then any guy (and there have been a fair number) that I've been around. So it is a sweeping times. And even though I fell for her, I don't act on it, because she's my straight friend, which leads me to point three....

3. about directing sexual urges elsewhere when they are unable to be satisfied.
venetia: "if we look around there are plenty of successful happy people who have struck a balance and are doing creative things." I think that what he meant by this point was that he did not want to get to 65, and realize that his most satisfying/enjoyable activity was suddenly impossible . So I think that you are right- it is possible to achieve that balance. I've been thinking about this for myself as a very single girl, and realizing that I can enjoy it, and appreciate sexual activity when the opportunity ;) arises.
It's not that I didn't before- but now it's a little bit more deliberate.
katiebelle- if i have the option, you better believe i'm not directing that motivation elsewhere. but if it's not there, i don't want to be driven crazy frustrated. and if the option is not executive- well, i want it going elsewhere.

these ideas, to me, are a kind of horoscope. sweeping generalizations with that spark of insight that gets you thinking. (even though the person writing it doesn't know you personally, and you may very well be an exception)
stillveryangry- does thinking about these generalizations make you feel like you can do anything?
This friend of mine seems to think that it's mostly the guys' fault that things in general are in such a faulty state, and he wants to be an exception (as he is marrying a friend of mine, i think he's doing a decent job) by treating women the way we deserve. He also wants sons so he can pass on his classy ways. He says that Feminism did great things for women, but that women still deserve better. As women, what do we do?
But people are not raised in a vacuum, you know? How many kids are watching television shows as infants onward? How many people - consciously or not - reinforce gender roles on kids even in casual interaction? Unless you keep your kid in isolation for the first five years of its life, it is going to be affected by the culture in which it is raised, regardless of how careful its caretakers are in their examples and behaviors.

And of course there are exceptions to every argument. No blacks and whites! :-)

eta-this is totally in response to pepper's linked post
i've recently parted ways with my spouse and while i've gotten over the shock of being single, i could use a few pointers regarding the questions below.

first, how do you answer the inevitable "what happened?" questions. i don't really know how to approach these. i don't want to make my ex sound like a bad person, but i don't want to seem like i don't care either. simply shrugging and saying "it just didn't work out" seems... weak.

second question, any divorcees have pointers on getting rid of that annoying "dent" on your finger where your ring used to sit?
laluna - i'm also recently out of a relationship (see the 'separation' thread) in answer to your first question, answering the 'what happened' questions....don't answer, unless it's someone reallyclose to you....and also, it's the relationship that did not work - there is nothing inherently 'wrong' with you or your (ex)spouse - you just did not work well together.
"What happened?"

"We got a divorce. The details are very personal."

Personally, I'd combine that with a witheringly icy gaze, so as to underline the rudeness of the inquiry, but that's me.

I got a new ring, which I wore when it matched and didn't when it didn't. It was a good weaning device, and I still love its rich red garnet stone.
maimy, I love that response. I will practice that icy glaze in the mirror a few times just to be sure it comes out as cynical as intended. :-)

I never thought about getting a new ring, that's a good idea! Reminds me of a Sex in The City episode, where she "registered" for her singlehood.
Ok ladies! What did you do with the old ring? I'm contemplating what to do with mine right now. It's quite nice. Keep it for the kids? Melt it down and make something different for the kids? Since we are on the subject, what do you guys think?
What to do with the old ring? The problem with the thing is no matter what form you change it into, it will still carry with it memories. If the guy really wasn't worth a S_ _ t, pawn the damn thing as he was most assuredly a loaner any how! If he meant something, give it to a daughter. She may have better luck. Just a guys thoughts.
I have my wedding set, but it does not look wedding-y when not worn all together. There were two simple, narrow yellow gold bands and my engagement ring. I rarely wear the bands for any reason, but the engagement ring makes a lovely dinner ring. Sapphires, diamonds, and no solitaire - it doesn't look so "engagement" style. I hate solitaires. Pleh. I wear it when I feel like it, and it brings no bad feelings (my ex and I took our time about it, but have become quite amicable over the past decade). My current sometimes wears his own old wedding band, too - just not on the left hand. It doesn't look exceptionally wedding-band-ish, so I don't really mind.
My boyfriend has a video of my boobs on his phone, and yesterday he told me that he showed it to our friend Julie a month ago. He told me this because he thought I wouldn't care, because I had showed Julie my boob the night before anyway.

I don't care that Julie saw the video. I'm just a little surprised that he showed it to *anyone* and what I'm really pissed off about is that he didn't tell me for a month, and all this time I've been hanging out with both of them and haven't known. I know that it's not like they were sitting there with me thinking *I know something she doesn't know* but still, it is unsettling. It almost feels like cheating to me and now I feel as though I don't want to trust him.

Do you think I'm just blowing this all out of proportion? I really don't even care that she saw the video.
hello, i don't think you're blowing it out of proportion. i think i would feel the same, it's the fact that it happened a month ago. and perhaps because he didn't tell you then and waited for a month, he felt bad about it? also, he told you right after the night you showed julie your boob, so maybe he thought he had the perfect opportunity to tell you what happened a month ago. (or did he show her the video the day after?)

either way, a month passed, when i think you should have been told a lot sooner. like you said, i think there is a loss of trust when something like that happens.

(i don't like it when things like that happen - the last boy i dated had kissed another girl early in our relationship (which i would have thought 'fine' had i known about it then, but he waited about a year later to tell me, after we'd all hung around each other a few times (and i didn't really like her to begin with). i felt it was a huge break in trust...but it was more the time lapse that bothered me. and there were other factors that are too lengthy to get into. and i know a kiss is not the same as what you're taking about, hellotampon.
hellotampon, I think that if this situation bothers you, you might want to erase the video.

I have pictures of my boys penis in my phone, he doesn't care if I show my friends, I care more than he does, I have only shown two of my friends...and I am not eager to show anyone else.

No, I don't think your blowing it out of porportion. I think you shouldn't let him take those pictures if your not comfortable with the thought that he may show other people...
I've been thinking about it and I've decided that what's really bothering me is that I don't trust him. I feel like lately he and Julie are a little more chummy than what is comfortable for me. I've always known they flirt, and I haven't really felt like it mattered- the 4 of us (me, him, her, and her boyfriend) are all like that with each other all the time.

I've been with my boyfriend for 2 years and I've grilled him on the cheating issue a few times and made him feel bad about his history of doing it in past relationships, which he has been completely open about from the get-go. He says he's grown up since then (he's 22) and I can tell he feels bad about me not trusting him. My father had an affair when I was younger and it had a really, really bad effect on my family. If it weren't for that, and knowing my boyfriend's history, I'm pretty sure I'd trust him almost 100%.

I guess I'll just have to talk to him about it and see how it goes from there. I just don't know how to do it without seeming needy and insecure. I don't actually feel like that, but I don't know HOW to articulate exactly how I do feel. I guess the most accurate word I can think of right now is "uncomfortable" or upset that the status quo seems to have changed a little bit, at least in my mind.
and why DID he show it to her? why did she want to see? like that is just weird seeming to me, how did it even come up?
Apparently she was talking about my boobs and that's what led to the video.

Which seems weird, unless you know how much random people talk about my boobs all the time, to me and to other people. You would think I was the only person in the world with large breasts.
Hellotampon, I can't get my head around the idea that it's possible to flirt with a woman by showing her pictures of your gf's breasts. WTF.

It seems to me like the opposite is possible - if this Julie is coming on to him a little bit, it might have led him to kind of boast about you or show you off - sort of like psychologically meaning "look at what I have, I don't need you Julie"

I know that's not all that much better! and I can see why it's a big breach of trust that he decided to take it on himself to share what was basically supposed to be a private gift to him alone. Also even as an implicit rejection it seems like a private and intimate conversation.

Yeah, I don't know, it just feels wrong to me. He actually told me a long time ago that he and one of my friends made out after talking about how hot I was (this was all before I was good friends with either of them) and I asked how in the hell one thing had to do with the other and he said it was just because they wanted each other or something.

We're supposed to be going to a friend's wedding tomorrow night and going to the beach on Saturday so I suppose at some point I'm going to tell him why I am upset about the video thing and that if he doesn't change then I'll have to break up with him. I love him and don't want to have to do that, and if we do break up I'll probably be miserable for a while and keep questioning if I did the wrong thing, but I don't want to be like my mother.
hellotampon, wow. now i get it. it's not just the video but the history of him making out w/ some chick after doing something similar. maybe he's trying to establish sexual relations w/ your friends via this method. it is very fishy. sorry to be so pessimistic but if my bf did something like what you just posted I would probably never trust him again. and that is a sorry excuse for making out w/ your friend BTW "uh, it's b/c you're so hot" RIIIIIIIIGHT.
see, personally i think this is an instance where he's stupid and didnt think about what he was doing, and there is nothing whatsoever behind it. i think that your assertion that you dont trust him bc of your past makes total sense, and you should talk about that. i wouldnt analyze it too much.

as for making out with your friend, well, if it was before you, who cares? honestly cloverbee does it matter what his excuse is? being crazy about that would be WAY too controlling and psychotic. sorry. you are putting two things together that dont belong together and that is something i cant stand about women.

if you dont trust him hellotampon thats one thing, especially if its for other GOOD reasons (and not that he made out with your friend who wasnt your friend 3 years ago when you barely knew either of them). however, if you talk to him and he seems genuinely confused about why you are upset, he may just have beeen stupid and didnt think, in which case i think you should make your feelings about it clear, bc they arent unfounded.
yah katie- cause all women "put two things together that don't belong together." way to generalize there.

i am saying women do generally over-analyze things. i do it too, and its something i cant stand about myself. i personally think its due to our socialization. way to prove my point.
whatev katie-you always know all and are quick to judge other women. not cool.
oh, were they not together when he made out w/ said friend? my bad. I thought they were. In that case, no, there isn't anything wrong w/ it. sorry, oops. I'll try and get my facts straight next time.
oh clover if they were together that would have definitly been SO not cool. yeah thats what i read, that she barely knew them when said made-out occured.

and i'll ignore your snarky little comment maddy bc cattiness is another thing i can't stand about women. yup, i generalized AGAIN. you know why? cause i know EVERYTHING.

jeeeez, if theres one thing i cant stand about people in general is when they get all whiny when someone calls them on their shit. go ahead, call me on mine, i dont care! if i am wrong i want to know!

i should also point out that clover read the conversation wrong which is a big PHEW moment for me bc i was shocked (from the what i have seen you post clover) that you would have thought that to begin with. so really, this whole argument is a moot point cause its all done and over to begin with!
what shit are you calling me on katie?

i've just noticed that you have a habit of making big generalizations about "all women" or whatever.

it's harder to ignore your judgements than it is my snarkiness.
i actually wasnt calling you on any shit. i also personally believe that you can actually make generalizations about women (and men). Do I think women and men are born like that? no. do i think we are socialized to be a certain way (catty, over analytical, manipulating for women and tactless and "macho" for men)? yes. feminism plays a big part in eradication how we are socialized to be this way bc it doesnt do anyone any good. do i take myself out of these generalizations? no, i am a part of them as well.

anyway, i really dont want to fight cause its friday.
ok, if that's what you mean when you are making generalizations, i get it. you are saying that many women are like that due to socialization. i heard it more as "oh women are just like that, damn women!"

thanks for clarifying. :-)
no no no maddy i dont think, by ANY stretch of the imagination, that "women are just like that" as in, they are born that way and thers nothing that can be done about those women. jeeeeez, i would kick my own ass!

it sucks that that is what socialization has done to both genders!
lol-well you can see why i got snarky-cause that's exactly what i thought you were saying!!!! :-) peace out:-) have a great weekend.
you are CORRECT. see ya on monday with the bran spanking new software!
Yeah, the making-out thing happened before I was good friends with either of them so I don't care. I was just using it as an example. As far as what happened with the current situation, I told him that I was annoyed that he showed someone the video without asking but if I was really that concerned about people seeing my boobs, I never would have let him have it on there in the first place. I said what really upset me was that he took something intimate between us and turned it into an intimate moment with another girl who he is obviously attracted to and it made me feel really shitty. When I said I was seriously considering breaking up with him over it he started crying. I still feel kinda bad about the whole thing but by the end of the day I felt like we'd be able to move past it. So I guess it's all good now. He just needed to be straightened out.
[font=Arial][color=#00CCCC][b] I have this personal problem and i hope someone in here can relate. I've been dating my boy for almost 4 years. I love him and really can't imagine him not in my future. I am always anxious for us to have certain "dating milestones" (I love you, moving in together, serious future discussions) and then when they occur, i freak out and start getting cold feet and wondering if i'm making a mistake and "looking at the other side". I don't know how to deal with these feelings. Are they normal or are they a sign that maybe i'm not so happy in my relationship?
Oh koala. This sounds very familiar. I too was in a 4 year relationship and I too wanted to hit those milestones. When he first said he loved me, I was overjoyed,..then he was saying it all the freakin time and I started to feel smothered. He even asked why didnt I say it as much and I felt guilty for wanting it in the first place. We broke up in april after many fights and going back and forth on the idea of living together (we never did). My advice is to seriously look at the present time, stop thinking about the future. Thats what made me decide to end our relationship: I realized I was staying with him for the great, imaginary future I had planned out, but I was not happy in the present. If you are happy with the present, then stay with him.
greenbean gives good advice definitly look at th present. you cant live your life for what the future *may* hold. thats just dumb and never, ever works out well.
I'm not one of those people that thinks engagements, marriage and kids "fixes" problems in a relationship. Its just that when our relationship is doing well and i start thinking about him proposing, i like the idea but then I freak out about whether he's really the "one" and if I should play the field more before I settle down. (Wow, sometimes I really feel like I have a man's mindset with this.) And it really doesn't help the "field" idea when guys flirt with me. There are times where we are together and i am awed because of how we can be so in sync. I don't know whats going on in my head, haha. Am i afraid that i'm gonna get hurt if it gets more serious? or do I just not know what I want?
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