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yeah, i think she likes me, but i don't think she likes me, likes me. long story, but aural consulted.
Ahhhh. I'm glad you sought consultation with AP. wink.gif
me too although it's funny you would say that. i thought some of it was me, aural's opinion was harsher than mine.
if I may drop my two cents... Not everyone knows if they are into something serious at first, I certainly don't know for a while... some things attract me while others repulse me in the same person, and sometimes you have to keep the ambiguity going for a good time until the temperature rises and then even the repulsion, and my struggle with it, can turn into a very intense sexual energy... and also, some people who want to be dominated just play that hot/cold thing to show you they want you to take control;.
Thing is, are you looking for a serious relationship with her, or are you down with just testing it sexually?
Sorry for speaking out of line, but I am just freshly inside one of these myself where if the guy had clearly asked if we can start dating it would have been a *no way* (for many reasons, mostly... his social awkwardness is driving me nuts, but then he is so smooth one-on-one he can make me wet with one look;) Yet he worked his way under my skin and now he hears "good boy" in key moments a lot;)
good luck,
I hope it was fun Annak!

Oooo GirlTrouble! tongue.gif
first, 7 there is no such thing as speaking out of turn. thank you for the advise. had it not been for the email....

i had aural consult because she knows full well what a pill/nutjob i can be. star certainly knows. but aural, well, of all the people on here, i know she'll call a spade a spade -- particularly if that means it's sooooo not what i want to hear. and i know she's more than tough enough to handle my stupid tantrums, and give as good as she gets.

quite honestly, i was happy to play it casually, and see how it played out, although there were signs of her running hot and cold before. the thing that changed it all was that email, which by it's nature meant one thing that she wanted more than friendship, the vibe from her, post email was at best, luke warm. when i asked her what the email was about, what it meant, her replies vague and felt like she thought she was doing me a favor. it really felt like she was playing games above all, and that was aural's assessment before i chimed in.

don't get me wrong, i like the girl, A LOT. but, that kind of put some things in perspective. i just don't think it's a good idea to let my heart get involved, or to really put myself out there with her. i wear my heart on my sleeve, and get hurt very easily. as it stands now, she'd really have to convince me that something more than friends wasn't one of her whims, subject to change in the next four hours.

it's a shame really. we have tons in common, make each other laugh hysterically, and complement each other's personalities. but i just don't like my emotions played with because she thinks it'd be funny.
Oh yeah, GT, aural does not beat around bushes, I've noticed. Which is awesome.
God is my witness i never meant to cross her;)
And thanks for the no-such-thing-as-out-of-turn remark.
I was just reading this and couldn't help making the connection with where I'm at, so I thought I'd offer that angle...
But for sure, that whole thing, not letting my heart be the price for my own need for exploration is something I'm learning about, so more power to ya, GT
Ugh, I need a little help.

Some of you may know from the Moooving On thread that I just recently got out of a really bad two-year relationship (well, maybe not so recently, it ended at the end(ish) of July). Needless to say, I'm a little wary of getting involved with anyone at the moment as my last two relationships over the past three-and-a-half years were terrible. Really, really awful and damaging to my spirit, I guess you could call it.

So the problem is - there is a male friend of mine who likes me (that sounds so preteen but it's true, hehe). I just found this out yesterday. We have known one another for about eight years or so (since high school) and we've hooked up a few times in the past (most recently last month) and I am sort of interested in seeing where it could go if we begin dating, but I'm afraid that because of ourt past together (friends/hookup buddies - we have never had sex, just done sexual things, I guess you could call it) he won't think of me as anything else. It really makes me feel slutty, which I hate. I'm really trying to get away from my past as being the "easy" girl, because I kind of am - I have no problem with women who sleep with men quickly, I just know from my past experience it doesn't lead to anything good in my own personal life. I think I'm rambling. Anyway, I guess the best way to describe it is that he asked me to a movie this weekend and said we should go to an early show because that leaves time for "other things" afterward, and he said "other things" in a distinctly sexual way. I'm thinking that he is definitely the wrong type of guy for me - this would technically be our first real date and he's already looking to do sexual things afterward, which I just don't want. Like I said, I'm trying to reform myself. Does that sound weird?

I hope that this doesn't sound like I'm bashing on women because like I said, I have no problem with how people are when they date or are in relationships. Sometimes a woman can sleep with a man straight out the gate and it's completely fine, but I usually pick assholes and it is usually revealed that he's an asshole once we've slept together (way too early) and I don't want that to be the test of a good relationship. Does that make sense? If anyone has any advice it would be awesome because I really don't know what to do here. Should I say to him, "Hey, we can date and see where this goes but we're not fooling around for a while?" or just forget it entirely. Help?
Rogue, if the situation makes you uncomfortable, or precisely how he seems to be setting up your date makes you feel uncomfortable, it is 100% valid to simply say that. It's also valid to not say anything (especially as he is making assumptions you're not happy about) and just suggest something different: say you want to go a later show and leave it at that, if you like.

Even if you weren't recently out of a relationship how much you disclose about where you're at in regard to dating is always up to you. In relation to this date, don't let him call the shots if you don't like the way it's shaping up. Sometimes I slept with someone the first or second night, sometimes we waited over a month or so--whatever makes you the most comfortable is the way to go. If he can't agree to that or tries to pressure you in a different direction, he is not worth your time (even a 90 minute movie smile.gif ).
I agree with Syb. Besides this guy sounding like not the best match right now, it doesn't really sound like you're totally ready to start dating again. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I sense a lot of hesitation in that regard. If you do want to just hang out, I'd make it clear beforehand what you want out of your relationship with him, be it dating or something else.
You're right, ketto. I don't know if I am ready to start dating, and I think that's the thing. I think it might be best if I make it clear to him that we're just going to hang out or not go at all, you know? I don't know, it's just weird I guess. We're friends and everything and he's a good friend, but I just don't want him to assume that because of what we've done in the past we'll just keep doing it and right away without conventionally dating. Like I said, I'm really trying to keep things going at a decent pace - I've always rushed into things and have always gotten burned when it happened.

Thanks for the advice! I think that it would be best to just set the "boundaries" first - just to tell him how I want it to be / think about it. And like you said, syb, if he doesn't respect it he really isn't worth my time, which is what I'm beginning to learn.

Ugh, dating. tongue.gif
It's so hard to get back into it. I remember after my first serious breakup I tried to date a few guys and it just wasn't right. I felt anxious and just not ready. It was probably over a year before I was actually ready to date. In retrospect, boundary setting would have been smart with the guys I dated soon after the break up. I totally wasn't ready for the kind of things they wanted.
I'm finding it really hard to get back into this time around. Usually it isn't but over the past three or more years I've dated two different men, the first one was a pathological liar and cheated on me more than once (my fault for putting up with it, I know) and the most recent ex was verbally and emotionally abusive and had horrible self-esteem issues that he took out on me so it's really screwed me up. It's not that I don't trust men, but that's pretty much the only way I can describe how I feel. I can't trust them not to be complete idiots! I have such a hard time finding a sane man and I have no idea why. I think I'm a nice person and I think I'm good looking but I don't get what it is. I've look around on a dating site where my stepsister found her husband and honestly, every guy there practically lists that he wants a thin woman, which I definitely am not. I'm not overweight by any means but I don't know. I'm not skinny. I don't look like a model. I have no problem with women who do - on the contrary, a lot of the times I see a really pretty girl and I just want to run up to her and tell her that I think she's gorgeous but most women would probably think I'm really weird if I did!

Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent here. I am just finding it really daunting and intimidating. I don't know where to go from here, really. I'm in the "I don't want to end up an old maid" mindset, which is ridiculous because I'm only 25, but when I see a lot of women my age getting married I get worried. I don't know. My mother and my grandmother have always been alone so I'm afraid it's a family curse. That sounds so silly but I think you all understand what I mean.

Usually this stuff doesn't get me down but it's really starting to this week for some reason. I just hate feeling entirely hopeless and that's how I feel. I just don't really know where to go from here. I want someone who is interested in me - not someone who is interested in what I can do for them. And that's all I've had. So it's frustrating.
QUOTE(rogue @ Oct 22 2009, 10:16 AM) *
I've look around on a dating site where my stepsister found her husband and honestly, every guy there practically lists that he wants a thin woman, which I definitely am not. I'm not overweight by any means but I don't know. I'm not skinny. I don't look like a model.

I'm just speculating here, but I'm pretty sure men's ideas of thin and women's ideas of thin are completely different animals. It certainly cannot hurt to try anyway, because you never know...
I was thinking the same thing, Aithienne. I was discussing this with a colleague today, actually. Who knows? I'm a size 14-16 and maybe that counts as thin to some men. I certainly don't have a flat stomach though, so I have no idea.
QUOTE(rogue @ Oct 22 2009, 03:23 PM) *
I was thinking the same thing, Aithienne. I was discussing this with a colleague today, actually. Who knows? I'm a size 14-16 and maybe that counts as thin to some men. I certainly don't have a flat stomach though, so I have no idea.

It all depends on perspective. For example, my mom makes comments a lot of how she thinks she's fat, and it makes me sad to hear her say it about herself. She's a size 18, I believe, and while she's not a rail, I still don't consider her fat at all and think she's quite beautiful. Of course, she has a very loving and sweet personality which makes her overall appearance delightful to look at.
Rogue, I think a July break-up is pretty recent! Both of my long-term relationships ended amicably, but it was still 6 months after each before I felt ready to think about dating again (though I did treat myself to some snazzy new porn and toys to take the edge off smile.gif ).

(And I don't think that having forgiven your ex for cheating makes it your fault that he did it again.)

On the issue of thinness, do you think it's as shallow when women only want to date tall men? That seems to be a common preference online (or so my short, make single friends tell me....). I met a girl in a club at the weekend who was gorgeous, 6"1 with long blonde hair, and had been single for 6 years because she wouldn't consider dating anyone unless they were taller than her. Gah, I wanted to slap her silly*! That seems such an arbitrary distinction to me (hey, I'm 5"3 and I've dated men my height). I can understand her not wanting to date short men, but would it really make that much of a difference is a guy was 6" instead of 6"2? Oh, and she was wearing heels......

It's really funny that you bring up the tallness issue, Persi, because I must confess, I am guilty as charged. I'm not super tall (I'm 5'9"), but I feel that it is important for me to date a man who is taller than I am (which can be an issue because in my experience, tall men do not find tall women to be attractive). I would definitely not rule out a man who is my height or shorter than I am (my last boyfriend was only 5'7"), but personally it just makes me feel strange if a man is shorter than me. It makes me feel larger than I am, which is not something I like. I am just very attracted to tall men. Also, I wear heels on a daily basis and would like to not be towering over my date at functions (the office in which I work is responsible for putting on a lot of non-casual events in my city and staff are expected to attend). But I definitely understand what you are saying. I prefer a tall man but I wouldn't exclude a good man just because he isn't tall. That's just plain stupidity.

My mother actually brought this up last night when we were talking about it - she asked if I would be as bothered by it if the men on the site were asking for short women and I said yes, but not as much as asking for thin women. I just think that our society's obsession with size and weight and what is beautiful is ridiculous. It's exhausting, actually. I generally like how I look but I would like to have a flatter stomach. That's about the only thing I would change about myself and I know it's just because that is what is considered to be acceptable and beautiful these days. It's sad, really. I think so many women are beautiful but I know they don't feel that way, much like I do sometimes, because of what is expected of us. It just makes me really angry. I guess that's why I'm so put off with this whole dating thing. I feel like I'm already excluded because I don't fit a certain criteria, so why bother in the first place, you know? Ugh.

Aithinne, I'm a very weird 14-16, too. I wouldn't consider myself to be "fat" (horrible word), but others would and have in the past. When I worked at a clothing store a few years back I also had coworkers tell me I was full of shit and that there was no way I wore a 16. I actually took a pair of jeans from off the rack and put them on in a changing room just to prove them wrong because they thought I would be a lot smeller than that. It's just weird, I guess. My mother thinks she's fat and says it all the time, and she's probably the same size I am. I hate when she says it as well because I think she's beautiful, just like you do of your mother. This is just all so frustrating. I think I'm going to be a hermit for a while. laugh.gif
Okay, in the interests of full disclosure, I will confess to some apparent hypocrisy on this subject. I have found several short men very attractive (and by short, I mean 5"3 or slightly taller), but my last three serious boyfriends have been, in chronological order, 6"1, 6"3 and 6"5. I swear that I was mostly attracted to them by their personalities! So although I stand by my principles on this subject, anyone who knows me IRL would be laughing.

Anyway, maybe the 'thin' thing is just because the site forces everyone to express a preference? Or because they're allowing for the natural distortion of facts when dating online? If everyone claims to be thinner than they really are, maybe they say 'thin' so that they get 'pleasantly curvy" smile.gif Given that most of us are just looking for someone we find 'attractive', which could cover a massive range of vital statistics, it's a shame if any site forces users to specify their preferences.

For a new level of shallowness, try Uniform Dating.

(Further disclosure: I once asked my ex why he didn't go for taller women. His response, and take this as you will, was as follows: "Don't get me wrong, tall women have their practical advantages, but small women are just so cute!").
QUOTE(Persiflager @ Oct 24 2009, 10:05 AM) *
For a new level of shallowness, try Uniform Dating.

I kind of understand why people in the medical profession might want to date others interested in medical care... but that's why work relationships tend to always happen, no one needs a website to meet people in the same profession as them!

Also, after checking out your link out of morbid curiousity, I must ask, how is a legal secretary or a travel/tourism receptionist a "uniformed" profession? lol
6'5"! Oh, persi, I envy you! I wish I could date a man that was 6'5"! I don't know why but tall men are my thing. Or, like I said, feeling small could be my thing, because I never do.

I was speaking with my BFF over the weekend regarding this (a two-and-a-half hour hike through the woods in the rain brings up a lot of opportunity for conversation!) and she said that she thinks that the men on the dating site that say they would like a thin girl, might not necessarily mean "thin" the way that I think it does. Thin can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people, and it might just be that they want someone who is "active", not "thin". I don't think I'm thin but someone else definitely could! I think I'm more curvy than anything else - I have a rounded tummy on me, but, to quote my friend, "I'm not a two-tonne Annie" or anything. I don't know. I guess it just offends me because I've always thought that I'm not good enough for anyone because of my size and that's my issue, not anyone else's. It just frustrates me.

In other news, I was supposed to go on a date this weekend with that guy friend for high school (I mentioned this before; it was kind of the jumping-off point to my post) and I didn't go. I purposely fell of the radar, so to speak, just to see what would happen. He said that I am very hard to get a hold of, which in my opinion just isn't true. I have Facebook (where he can message me privately, or publically, and my phone number is listed on it as well) so he could have talked to me there if not on MSN, where we usually talk. So yeah. Instead of waiting around for him I went on a hike on Saturday morning and then hung out with my bestie for the rest of the day up until about 9:30 that night and nothing. Not a word from him. I have a phone that allows me to access my e-mail and Facebook and *gasp!* receives phone calls. Fast foward to yesterday where he comes on MSN and apologizes to me about Saturday because he had a bad weekend and didn't want to do anything. Whatever. So obviously not worth my time. I was just like, "No worries" and I think it made him feel really badly because he kept apologizing. The thing is, first and foremost he is/was my friend, so he should have made an effort. Bad friend, worse boyfriend. It ain't gonna happen. My next two book purchases are going to be He's Just Not That Into You, and Act Like A Lady, Think Like A Man. I think they would be immensely helpful to my clueless nature re: dating.

Sorry about the rambling. I just needed to get that rant off my chest, so to speak. I hope everyone else is having more fun in dating-land than I am! I think I'm just going to hibernate for the winter and get back out there in the spring. From now on, I am a bear.
My next two book purchases are going to be He's Just Not That Into You, and Act Like A Lady, Think Like A Man. I think they would be immensely helpful to my clueless nature re: dating.

I don't know how serious you were about this but I am compelled to put my $0.02 in. I have read neither book. However, I used to watch the Greg Berhent Show so his book comes off as slightly less repellent. However, having watched Steve Harvey promote his book, all I can say is "Ugh." He seems to really act as if women are responsible for all of the happiness in the relationship. He even said that women should never get undressed infront of their male partner because that ruins the mystery. Where I used to work, the counselors actually got together to do a reading group for this book because they knew that the clients would be reading it and the staff needed to know how damaging it would be.

As far as the "I want a thin girl/tall guy" stuff on personal ads, if a guy had requested a preference that I did not feel applied to me, I took him off my list. While we all have physical preferences, looking for love is different. My bf is exactly my height and we are both chubby. He's bald, and, believe me, I have my imperfections too. If I had limited him out of my preferences because I didn't want someone who didn't meet my normal physical preferences (tall, slender, brown haired) my life would be a much different place and not for the better.
QUOTE(kittenb @ Oct 29 2009, 09:15 AM) *
He even said that women should never get undressed infront of their male partner because that ruins the mystery.

Wow, that does sound a little excessive. Thanks for the heads up, kittenb. I might take a deeper look at the book in this case, maybe sit down in the bookstore and leaf through it a bit. I was interested in it but now it just seems like - no thanks. Hehe.

Most of the men that I have dated have not been anywhere near what I exactly what in a man (tall, blond hair, gorgeous eyes, no matter what the color) and it was fine with me, too. I know that to only go after exactly what I want limits a lot of other great men and I would never do that, it's just what I prefer in the grand scheme of things. I just get really discouraged when it comes to dating, I guess. I've usually gone for men who like me, regardless of what I think of them. This time around I just really want to find some mutual admiration, and no one with a crazy backstory. Seriously, the men I have dated in the past have all been really, really odd and I kept going forward when I should have run screaming in the opposite direction. I just want someone who is low-maintinence and drama free and who likes me for who I am. That's all. I don't ask for much, but I can see where it's hard because I find that I am a very strange person. I definitely see where you are going with online dating profiles, though, kitten. I kind of want to make one for myself to see what happens but at the same time I don't want to be expected to go out with these men so I'm going to refrain for now. I know my limits and it's not right to put myself out there and not be able to stand up to expectations.

I can't tell you how glad I am that there is a place out there to discuss issues in all the aspects of my life. I am thankful for Bust every day. The Lounge and its Busties are awesome.
Bah, I get so frustrated with men. There's this one dude that I'm messing around with (we aren't dating but he said he really likes me etc., and we probably aren't dating because of my issues; I don't want to be tied down at the moment/don't want the expectations that come with dating) but I'm just getting really annoyed. We've been friends for about eight years and we've fooled around a few times over that time span (most recently on Monday night) and every time we do he falls off the radar for a few days. It's completely ridiculous and I'm at a loss as to what to do about it. I honestly don't know why, either. I'm hoping it's not because he wants something more from me and I don't want anything from him other than our friendship/casual encounters at the moment (not saying this won't change because it might, but who knows). I'm also hoping he's not playing some "I'll disappear to get her to miss me" game, because that's total bullshit and I'm not into games.

Any advice on how to get him to stop disappearing? It's so weird! It's like he thinks I'm going to be this retarded clingy girl and I'm definitely not like that, but when I want to talk to him about anything (because we are friends and he's quite insightful/hilarious) he's nowhere to be found. *Annoyed Rogue is annoyed.* Grrrrr.
Hi Rogue, sorry to hear that your romantic life is a little complicated right now.

From an outside perspective and just based on what you have noted in the previous post....this guy did ALREADY tell you that he really likes you, so in some ways it is not really fair to say 'I'm hoping it's not because he wants something more from me' because if he has gotten to the point to tell you how he feels then it may be likely that he wants to be with you or will want to if this continues.

Perhaps his disappearing is a mechanism through which he can create distance with you so that HE does not get hurt - rather than as a result of playing games or making sure that YOU do not get too clingy. I understand that it probably frustrates you and hurts your feelings when he ignores you afterward because he is not treating you like a 'friend' but maybe it is too much for him. I guess I also wonder - if you are fooling around and talking more frequently than every few days (because you have noted that you are frustrated that he disappears for just 2-3 days afterwards) isn't is just a slippery slope before you enter into a relationship whether you want it or not? Both emotional and physical needs are then being met by the same person - that's more than friends in my opinion. Also consider, would you be just as frustrated and annoyed if your best completely platonic friend did not call you within three days of last seeing them? If the answer is no then you are likely more than just friends whether you like it or not.

Maybe this is completely off base but I have never had a friends with benefits situation where one person did not end up having significant feelings. Perhaps you need to talk to him and tell him how you feel when he ignores you and then also ask him about how he is feeling and what he wants.

Good luck and I hope that it turns out the way you want it to.
Hey, thanks coffee! All that you said makes sense, especially the part where you mentioned that he is more-than-likely distancing himself so he doesn't get hurt. I was thinking that too, but I don't know. We do talk a lot so that's why I'm so confused as to why he just disappears after we've messed around. Maybe I'm weird but I like the way things are going - if they progress into a relationship I guess I'll just have to see what happens but it really bothers me that he just disappears. It makes me feel used and I'm not comfortable with that - I'm not using him - he's a great guy and I would never do that to him - I thought we had a mutual understanding but maybe I'm wrong?

I would definitely send him an e-mail/FB message to this extent but to me that comes off as being clingy and I do not want that. I almost tried twice today but then stopped myself. It's just so annoying! Especially since I just saw him update his status there about ten minutes ago but he's still not online to talk to (via MSN) about anything. Part of me just wants to say "So what's going on with us?" but I have a feeling that will open up a kettle of fish I don't want to get into. Bah.

I even have him blocked on MSN so he won't see that I'm online, just in case he wants to log in and feel that he won't be bombarded by me (which I don't ever do anyway, but who knows how men think? I certainly don't! And it's so obvious (to myself) that I am playing a game and I hate that too - but I'm playing a game for self-preservation. I don't know. It just sucks cause I don't want us to eff up a friendship, even though we both agreed that wouldn't happen. Aargh.

Roque, I have to agree with coffee that someone usually ends up getting hurt in FWB relationships. In the past I twice thought I had a good casual thing going with two separate guys. One of them acted like a child when I ended up in a committed relationship and the other professed his very strong feelings for me when I ended up with my current guy, even go so far as to call me every 2-3 months to see if I was single.

I've probably said this before on the lounge, but I'm the kind of person that cannot deal with confusion and not being clear on what's going on. If I were you, I'd just bite the bullet and have the "what's going on" convo. It's a hard thing to bring up, but it usually brings relief in some way. It's really hard not to screw up a friendship in some way when you're in that kind of situation.
I totally agree, ketto. I want to have the "what's going on convo" but not through Facebook messages. I'd rather talk to him online about it - or better yet, face-to-face, because fuck if I know what's going on with him. He seems really into me and stuff which is fine, I'm kind of into him too but I don't want to jump right into another relationship after getting out of a bad one only four short months ago. At the moment I just know that I'm not cut out for being someone's exclusive girlfriend, but I don't like being ignored, either, you know? Especially since we were talking every day before we started goofing around again.

Sigh. I guess I'm just going to have to wait before he sticks his head up out of his ostrich hole. But it's pretty frustrating. And I really hope you aren't right about one of us getting hurt, but I can totally see where you're coming from. That just wouldn't be cool with me.
I have to say that I don't really like the term "friend with benefits" because I really don't think it works when the people are actually friends. I have a guy who is what I call a fuck buddy and he is just that. We are chummy when we see each other but we see each other solely for sex. He knows how to fuck me but neither one of us wants anything more from it and for the past two years it has worked great. He was understanding a few months ago when I told him I was in a relationship and after I texted him to tell him that I was single again he sent a quick "so when can I see you?" message. I like it. It's simple and there is no drama. We don't see each other often but we're both quick to respond to each other's "needs".
QUOTE(candycane_girl @ Nov 12 2009, 08:10 PM) *
I have to say that I don't really like the term "friend with benefits" because I really don't think it works when the people are actually friends.

This is a really sensible viewpoint. smile.gif

My friends have all gotten themselves into horrible situations because of the blurred lines between friends and fuck buddies.
What you're saying really does make sense, CCG (and you too, wowee). I took the evening to think about it and I kind of think that you're right - I think that this might be the issue here. I think that he wants more from me than I can give and I don't know what I want from him at all. With me, it could go either way. If he wanted to stop messing around and just be friends, I would be cool with that. If he wanted to just be fuck buddies I would be cool with that too, but I need him to tell me that. It's all his vague bullshit that is driving me crazy - the coming and going, the talking to me and wanting to hang out with me and then dropping me after we do hang out.

I was talking to my bestie about this yesterday and she said that she thinks he's playing a game - we hook up, he disappears, and then when he finally comes back I'm like, "So what happened to you?" and it makes him feel wanted and that I'm wondering about him when he's gone and that eventually I might get around to wanting to be with him. I think that's really game-y for a guy, but I don't know. It's entirely possible.
I think it's true about the "friends with benefits" term. I guess I use fuck buddy and FWB interchangably because I've never actually had a FWB relationship with someone I was already friends with. I met the few guys I did that with through plentyoffish or through friends.

I hate games.
I agree with Ketto - I would have used the terms interchangeably as well but I see that Candy makes a good point in distinguishing between how the two can be used differently. Rogue, I also agree that your friend could very well be 'playing a game' in order to feel wanted. Perhaps because that is his way of feeling that he is getting closer to actually being with you. Either way, I hate the idea of game playing - especially because the two of you have a long standing friendship that sounds like it is based on open communication. I hope that once you reach him you are able to have a good talk face to face.
I hate games too. And I think in this situation it's totally unnecessary. When he and I hooked up in September the same thing happened (although he had also just started a new job with completely opposite hours to mine, but still). I called him on it and although I can't remember exactly what he said, I told him that he has nothing to worry about with me being one of those clingy annoying girls, that I'm not like that, that I won't want to monopolize his time or call him all the time or whatever, and it's true - as long as the lines of communication remain open. He's kind of turning me into that crazy clingy girl that I'm not because I can't get a hold of him. I know that he has Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays off and he appeared on Facebook for a sec yesterday but not online and it's the same with today - although I haven't seen him there yet. Like I said - I am not usually like this so it's really bothering me! I'm trying to just let it go but it's annoying.

The next time that I am able to talk to him I am definitely going to pull him to the side and be like okay, WTF, it is not cool for you to do that. Because I already talked to him about his disappearing act before is what makes me think that he's playing a game. Maybe this is all part of his plan, which is not cool and I'm not falling for it. Now, if only we weren't so compatible (sexually and otherwise!) I wouldn't keep going back for more. Good thing I really don't have emotions invested in this because that would suck. I don't care how it goes as long as I don't lose him as a friend (which I haven't yet so I'm not worried) but dammit, I want answers!

/end rant.
crazy clingy girls are made, not born. for every girl you see like that, i'd wager there's at least one man in her past or present who did just the kind of bs you're talking about.

my only thought is: if you're just fooling around, and not looking for a relationship, why does he have an obligation to be reachable with any regularity? i'm definitely not familiar with this situation, so feel free to smite me if i'm wrong, but i think that to a lot of guys (and probably plenty girls as well), making yourself reachable and staying in touch is one of the responsibilities that comes with an emotional attachment, be it a close friendship or something more. if he was like this before you were fooling around, that's just his style. if he wasn't, then clearly your boundaries are bothering him and he's either avoiding the situation or trying to, as you said, play games.

you already told him that it's not ok with you to act like this, and yet he's still doing it. i think this is one of those sucky lessons we have to learn: if he doesn't want to change his behavior, he's not going to. maybe he would act differently if he was in a relationship with you. maybe he wouldn't. maybe it's reaching a point where it's just time for you to decide what you'll put up with and what you won't.

ETA: sorry if this post comes across as to rude or blunt, especially for a newbie. it's definitely not intended that way; i KNOW how frustrating that BS can be. just my thoughts; feel free to disagree!
Hey enfermera - don't worry about it, I appreciate all POVs, no matter how blunt or straightforward. smile.gif

He absolutely does not have an obligation to be reachable, however, before we started fooling around he spoke to me every single day. For hours. That is the sole reason why I think that he's playing a game or else being a complete douchebag (which would be really shocking to me as we have been friends for years and he's never acted this way with myself or anyone else). And believe me, I was once a clingy girl, years ago, before I knew what it was like to be in a relationship with a clingy person, and I have vowed to never act as such again, no matter how crazy it makes me. Which is why I will not message him first. I think you can see that it's driving me crazy, but I am stronger than all this. I've pretty much already reached the decision - whenever I speak to him next I will discuss with him what is okay and what isn't and if this all happens again well, as they say in baseball, three strikes and you're out! This is the second time this has occurred and I'm so close to being over it it's not even funny, it's just sad because although I don't want to be tied down in a relationship right now, I could definitely see us progressing into something along those lines, but not without a lot of time and build up and maybe he's just not willing to wait. The only thing I know for sure in this whole situation is that I won't know anything until I talk to him so I might as well stop dwelling on it, but when I'm annoyed with something I tend to obsess over it. It sucks, but that's me.
Hi Rogue - to be honest (and from my experience) - most men don't just talk to women 'every single day' and 'for hours' if they just want to be friends. I think that your friend's change in behaviour actually provides you with MORE evidence that he wants something more romantic from you. I am definitely not saying that you should give more to him if you are not ready - but I think it does explain his behaviour and provides evidence that he is likely not a douchebag or making a concerted effort to 'play games'. Actually, I think that there should be some distinction made between 'playing games' and 'protecting yourself'. I think that when people play games they are trying to gain control over someone else. This could still be the case with your friend but maybe he feels like he is just taking some control BACK. If his feelings really are invested then maybe he thinks that YOU are playing with HIM by being so casual after he told you that he liked you.

I know so many women who have kept fooling around with men thinking that one day the man would come around and really want to be with them even though it was against their better judgement and it was likely they would get hurt. I ask, is this situation really any different just because the person who could be potentially more emotionally invested is a man? Maybe your friend continues doing this because he thinks that either 1. eventually you will come around or 2. something is better than nothing even if it hurts.

Of course Rogue you are the woman in this situation and no one else can tell you what is best. I won't be offended if you disagree smile.gif

Darling Rogue? Come on - "crazy clingy girl"? I kinda take (friendly) offense at you trying so hard to prove you are not one.
All that oxytocin we*** release when we have sex? It's a bonding hormone. Yes, you need reassurance and the hours of speaking (or whatever the approaching behavior was) to NOT end or be reduced significantly after orgasms have been dished out. I'm not so delighted when women pretend it's not the case. Sure, there are women who need less of it, but overall? More. I think this should be taught in sex education class or something - that the disappearing is what causes a gal to feel abandoned and get yet more insecure and clingy. And sure, there are cases when it was just the need for sex that drove you to spend all the hours talking and courting - and with the *release* you realize you don't much care for that person - but that's when you have to be extra gentle and CARE for them. Because otherwise, you are creating a monster in turn.
Which leads me to this thing I have been pondering for a while - how much people have to learn from "consensual power exchange" or BDSM. GT (my hero!) always stresses the importance of aftercare in a scene, and I couldn't agree more. *If you open them, you gotta close them.* That's the rule.

Now why don't people stress the need for aftercare in vanilla sex (using vanilla not derogatorily, just cuz i don't want to say "normal" or "everyday", so please put up with it, or offer a better term and I'll change it.)
I've never heard anyone stress the importance of aftercare, and I think in a lot of the vanilla one-night stands or FWB or just, the beginning stages of dating, the woman IS the one being OPENED up - as in literally. As for me, being that weird kind (you can call me a control freak, it's okay), the I'd-rather-NOT-take-my-clothes-off-at-first-but-I'll-get-you-naked-and-make-you-so-happy person, vanilla sex always always feels like I subbed. I need aftercare. Add to that my bad case of post-coital blues/endorphin issues and - if they don't dote on me for the next few days, a lot, I get very sad and doubty.
So I've started warning my men. They find out I'm a scorpio, they'll read something, they'll say: Ah, It says foreplay is more important to you than sex. And I'll say: You know what's more important than both: AFTERplay. And the smart/intuitive ones almost get it. That it's a WARNING. That you fuck that up, we don't play again. But still they need to be reminded... So few have been natural at it... This last boy almost was.

All I'm trying to do with this post is, ask that women don't deny our need for extra care and increased , if anything, attention for the few days after sex. Can we instead educate the boys that this is what keeps women from becoming clingy? Gotta close me after you open me is a simple working definition for that.

Anyway, tell me what you think, dear ladies.

***Of course, the boundaries between male and female are murky and the question of male identity in female body and the reverse make this even more baffling, but overall, speaking of straight macho men: Men also release oxytocyn and it's pleasant and warm and all, but their other bonding hormone is often vasopressin, which is released when they, um, watch another man hit one their girl? I know I know. This can be construed as a sexist statement, and I apologize for that, But I'm just trying to see how actual chemistry figures in why we feel what we feel. And why we sometimes end up on a pillowful of smeared mascara.

Rock out, ladies!

ETA: Dear Rogue, sorry I used your situation to pour this out. I have been thinking about the issue for a while, as you see, it is quite the novel.
I guess the idea for me in a relationship/ hook-up is not to try NOT to feel - even the bad things. It's to create a safe space where we can feel everything.

(Yeah, I always do that with the short after-post. Sorry.)
I'm going to chime in on the 'protection' rather than 'games' side. If he feels romantically about you, he probably finds it quite difficult to go back to being just friends after you've hooked up. Thinking about seven's excellent 'afterplay' post, how do you leave things after you've hooked up? Is it kinda sweet/romantic, or just friendly?

Rogue, yay for you finding someone fun to be with, and yay for moving on from your ex! But I think you're being unfair to your friend. You say that you don't know what you want from him, but you blame him for being vague. It sounds like what you want pretty much all the benefits of a relationship without making any commitment to him in return. I agree with ccg - you can't just add sex to an existing close friendship and expect the friendship to remain the same. Honestly, if he was my friend I'd tell him to stop fooling around with you until you made up your mind!

Aw, you ladies are so intelligent. I really appreciate all the advice. I would love to talk to him to discuss all this but it's kind of impossible when he's all but disappeared. I have no idea how to contact him about this. I definitely don't want the perks of a relationship (because at this stage in my life I see absolutely no perks to a relationship) but I don't know. I'm not blaming him for being vague, I'm upset that he won't communicate how he's feeling. I guess I should take this at face value. It's just hard because I'm the kind of person that is always open and honest - I'll tell you my life story in under an hour if you want to know, you know what I mean? I hate when people don't tell me what they are feeling because then I don't know how to gauge my own reaction/feelings.

And seven, I totally did not mean to sound insulting when talking about clingy girls. Maybe I should have made myself more clear - I don't want to return to my former clingy, insane self (I once called a former boyfriend eighty-two times in one hour because I was freaking out when I could not get a hold of him (thinking irrationally that he was cheating on me) - turns out he was on his motorcycle and duh! couldn't answer the phone). That's what I mean. I think my problem is that in relationships (now) I generally tend to think more like a man does (well, what society thinks a man thinks like): I don't want to fight for more than ten minutes, I don't like to cuddle, I don't want to be held accountable for my actions (to an extent), and I don't want to have to explain myself. I know that all men are not like this, but with me this is because I am so honest and so open that I never have ulterior motives and I hate it when someone makes me out to be a liar or being unfaithful (as my ex did), so I just want to be left alone to my own devices, really.

I think you're right. Maybe he's keeping himself away from me on purpose. I just don't really know how to fix all that, I guess. I'm really trying not to dwell on anything but it's hard, especially since the physical part of me just wants him so badly, but my brain is like, "Girl, you better forget that mess right now. I'm not even playing with you." I know that I would just kill everything if we got into a relationship because I am so not there yet.

*Sigh* But thank you all so much for the feedback. I definitely understand your point on aftercare, seven. I don't feel I need aftercare in the sense of positive reinforcement after the encounter, more like, just let me know you're alive. I don't think that's asking too much - I just think him messing around with me and then dropping me for five days is incredibly disrespectful. I would never do that to someone unless I really didn't like him and was using him, which is now how I feel. I feel that now I'm good enough to be used, but not good enough to be friends with, even if this is completely unwarranted on my behalf.

Wow, sorry this was so long!
We're cool, Rogue. I wasn't really pissed. It was a stylistic device;)

And as I've mentioned elsewhere, I have a co-residing male self-identity and often feel like *the man* in my relationships, and my boys are always younger, all pretty and girlie (took me a while to see and admit that tho). But those rare occasions when a guy has done enough to make me trust him with my *woman*, and I feel like I owe it to *us* to descend into my femaleness and spread my legs and open my soul with it, that's when it goes bleep.
And yes, I've done serious bondage-and-discipline on my urges to where I don't call more than 12 times in one hour any more;) I'm kidding, I can NOT call at all. I got enough tricks (from my OCD counter-routines: that shit leaves you armed) to where I can distract myself and function and not text, and yes, they'll eventually text. But by then, they're out of my playlist. By then I've burned the proverbial bridge.
So what do we have to work with here?
It seems to me then it becomes an issue of expressing/ healing a need versus suppressing/ harboring it. It has lately crossed my mind, and become my social experiment, to not bend over backwards in feats of self-restraint (just so I won't come across as clingy) but give a boy a fighting chance instead. Like, act on my compulsions in a cool, even make-fun-of-meself but empowering way, and call. I'll even do the whole bio chemistry spiel and say, don't let it get to your head hon, you're swell and all, but it's just that nature fucked me over with a few thousand extra bonding receptors than it gave your kind... So be a good boy and read me a good night story or something.
Well, that's the scenario in which the boy has already proven that he cares but just doesn't know HOW to show it. So I help him out. The ones that don't, they're just plain out.
And on the honesty front, dear Rogue - you keep saying you're honest, and you hate games - but you're seething and waiting for him to call? And you say things like "the physical part of me just wants him so badly, but my brain" but claim you have no needs... etc - how is that honest? Let's just face it and admit honesty doesn't always work in this um, field, and games aren't all bad. Something in us makes us "play games" because that's the Morse code millions of years of evolution have left us with - relying on hints and torture techniques more than on words.... So we test each other and if the test is passed, we give the reward. And part of the test is: Can you READ me? it's not a test if you fill it out for them is it. So up-frontness is kind of... a buzzkill in this case.
I have way more to say on games, but let's all take a breather first.
Sorry dear Busties for having to endure the lengths. ... I am in hormonal high drive so it's hard to keep it short and to the point.

Happy *write LOVE on her arm*, everyone!
Moved my novel on Games to Inebriated Ramblings...

Now the PS:
A Bustie said in the small boobs support thread:
How are people gonna learn to love small breasts if they never see them?

How are men gonna learn aftercare if we act like we don't like it or need it?
Soooo my new development this morning re: that guy I hooked up with.

He came online yesterday for the first time in ten days. I didn't message him because hi, I'm not the one who disappeared for ten days! I left the ball in his corner because I had no idea what he wanted from me - I didn't want to date him.

I wake up this morning to find that he has deleted and blocked me from crackbook. Yes, that's right! Most mature twenty-five year old man I have ever come across! This is sarcasm of course.

But wow. I'm pretty much speechless over the whole thing. I want to e-mail him and call him out on it so badly but seriously, what would that accomplish? I'm grown - I don't need to block people or delete them from my life because something didn't go the way I wanted it to. It just pisses me off that now we are no longer friends, even though we have (had?) been for the past eight years. I guess you were right about FWB, CCG!

Anyway, I just thought I'd update y'all. On to my next conquest, whenever that might be! laugh.gif
rogue - I've been following your story so far but didn't quite no what to say. While blocking you is immature is also seems very possible it felt necessary to do to prevent himself from getting more involved than he already is. You've saiud that you don't want a relationship, he does. If I am correct, you both took the risk and slept together anyway. Maybe he is hurting and needs to stay away from you and doesn't know how to say it? I just keep think of what most of the Busties would say if this situation was gender-reversed. I can see some of us saying, "Block him and give yourself time to figure this out."
(((rogue))) that does suck! Like you said, he is 25 years old, and it is true that he could have at least said to you that he just needed some time to separate and think about things. I don't agree with HOW your friend chose to make space. However, it does make sense, as Kitten said, that he is making space because he may be feeling that he is more emotionally invested than you. I'm not saying that it is right but if you want to salvage the friendship it looks like it might be necessary to give him his space and hope that he can come to you in due time to talk about things.

I'm sorry to hear that this is happening especially with everything else going on at the present time with the family! We are here for you girl...and keep us updated re: new 'conquests'! smile.gif

Roque, that's an unfortunate turn. Even if he didn't want to date or things did get screwed up emotionally, he could have at least come out and just said that. I can understand why you would find it hard not to contact him and call him out, but it probably is for the best to just let it go. I agree with Coffee, he may have needed the space, but that was the wrong way to go about it.
Hey ladies, sorry for taking so long to reply! I was out all day and the Lounge died for some time yesterday. =(

I think all of you are right - I think that maybe this is a self-preservation thing but at the same time I think he really went about it the wrong way. I'm not going to bother contacting him about it at all - I don't have the time or the patience to deal with something like this. I've been screwed around far too often by the men that have been in my life (which is what makes me think that this is more likely to be a game). I can give him the benefit of the doubt but I can't abide by a friend doing this. I personally would never just block and delete a friend unless it was after a long, long fight with no resolution in sight (which never happened with us). I just think he should have told me something - anything - before just cutting me off like that.

Anyway, I guess it's all water under the bridge now. Sad for him though - I think we had a pretty good friendship and I'm sorry to see it go. Maybe it was my fault for letting it progress farther than it should have, but I don't know. Meh, I guess.
I, by no means, have body image issues. I just don't think that I want another man in my pants. I lost my virginity at 18. I am now 19. I don't think that I'm meant to have a boyfriend. I don't think I'm meant to be with someone. It just doesn't seem to be what god has in mind for me. Am I crazy for thinking that I'm going to be alone the rest of my life and I'm ok with it because I have my vibrator?
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