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Hmmm, right now my gut says he isn't. I've had that feeling before, and it turned out to be false, unless he was hiding it extremely well. I know he talks about other girls, but considering his past behavior, I know he's all talk and as long as we're monogamous, he isn't going to do anything. (And I mean go out with them, kissing, etc., anything besides talking. And if I do tell him to shut up about it, he will.)

I decided yesterday to talk to him about it, and he says someone was handing out free samples at his uni, and said he wouldn't be using it anytime soon. He didn't get upset over it, and seemed rather surprised it was in there. And yes, I think I was afraid that the answer might be yes, and I would be devistated. However, it is good to know that he isn't, and if he was, well, I am strong enough to handle it.

Thanks for the advice, everyone.
help! i see him rarely, awkwardly-
today, he said he a dream about me (or my sister?)
wait for it to play out, or ask him to meet me for a drink, a walk, a movie, something new i want to show him?
please advise!
I have a question...and this gonna be long...

I have a really good guy friend. He's my best friend (guy wise). I can tell him anything, and he tells me everything and we just connect so well. We have awesome conversations, serious and hysterical and i think we just GET each other. We've been friends for 4 or 5 years. When we first started talking and hanging out, I developed a huge crush and being young and stupid, told him about it and he said he saw me only as a friend and we kept our realtionship platonic.

Recently, I find myself single and moving back to his hometown and he's been calling me more often and we've been hanging out more. We hung out last week sometime and he brought up this whole topic of conversation about how we're such good friends and he doesn't want to lead me on, and he's afraid that he might do that sometimes, and he hopes I find happiness with a guy...blah blah blah. Which I was fine with. A week later, we hang out and drink with a bunch of friends. He ended up getting really drunk, so said he needed to stay after everyone left to sober up. So, we started watching tv. I've known him for so long that I know when he's drunk, and he definitely wasn't when he began to hit on me. And not just little touchy feely flirty type hit ons...we totally messed around. Afterwards, he gave the whole, "i didn't mean for this to happen, it just did" speech...

Heres the situation, though. We're both single, We've known each other for a while, we get along really well. I KNOW he's not the type to just use someone for booty. He's very virginal, in the sense that he's only messed around with one other person before (and she happened to be a lesbian), and I know that he would have brought up the idea of just screwing each other for fun if that's just what it was. So, I don't know what I should do with the situation. I think he might have felt weird about it afterwards, and I haven't spoken to him since it happened. I don't know if I should just take it for what it might be, which is just available booty, or if i should consider it something more. I don't even know if I should call him or not. I'm just really confused and any advice on this matter would be GREATLY appreciated cause I'm just baffaled by this whole thing.
cstars124, I'm a big fan of taking people at their word: "I'm not right for you" "I have a heart of stone" "I'm not interested in a relationship" "I like you as a friend." I've heard all of these and ignored them at my peril, hoping for something more, because they have all turned out to be the truth, whatever temporary hormonal flare ups might have suggested otherwise. I'd take it at face value until further notice: he likes you as a friend. You messed around. Not so unusual. But since you are good friends, I'd just ask him if you could talk about what happened. My 2 cents.
Yea...I take things at face value too. But this is just totally unlike him. And I don't think he did it just because he had a hormonal flare up, cause I was acting very non interested, and he kept pursuing, so I think if it was something that "just happened" as he said, it would have been more fluid (if that makes any sense). I think things that just happen, happen when both parties don't really think about it and just go with it. There was definitely a 45 minute period when he was just doing stuff and I'd stop it, and it would happen again until eventually, I just went with it..
Okay.. .I was already bitching in the LDR/Crush thread. However, if this sounds like a vent I'm sorry. I'm angry and listening to Ani right now.

Okay. I met this guy off We've been talking for about 8 month total. He came down to see me/meet me this past weekend. We almost ended up sleeping together, but not sex. Regardless, we saw eachtother naked, and some heavy petting was happening. The bitch of the thing: he lives in SC, I live in GA.

I also had a seizure the day he left. He witnessed it. He didn't freak out too badly. I thought this was a good sign. He kissed me goodbye, and told me that he would see me in a few weeks (the 23rd to be exact).

I told him that I was being hit on a lot at work. He told me that it didn't matter. He wanted to see me again, but wanted to see me in a non-physical way. And, he was just randomly vague about it this time. He just IMed me and said "some weekend..."

I understand it's too early to even start a discussion about exclusively or long distance relationships, but I'm just so confused.

I do intend to see other people, and I guess he wants to leave his options open as well.

I normally don't fool around with people so fast. I'm just hoping he doesn't think I'm some random cunt he can fuck when he chooses to.

Any advice would be helpful, even it was just a knock on the head to tell me to calm the fuck down. I haven't felt this way about a man in many a year.

I've had some serious bad luck with guys lately. I'm just fearing that I'm already setting myself up for failure, and the damn relationship hasn't even fucking started yet. FUCK!!!
I pushed her away again. It's the third time and it's killing me just as it has the other two times prior. I can't let anyone get near me. I am such a chicken-shit I can't allow for someone to actually be there for good. I look for faults and I'll use them to prove I shouldn't do the unthinkable...comit. It's un-fucking-believable and I've done it again. And again, to such a beautiful little lady. How many times do I have to answer this question when the subject is in tears, "why won't you let me get to know you?" I'm the biggest chump there is. I'm scared shitless and I only complain about it afterwards. I like to talk about it as if I'm bigger now and can confess that, 'I was wrong, I was a chump, I was afraid, I specifically found things that proved we'd not be together forever so why try?'
I chicken out. Just as I did that last year of football, the time I gave up in a wrestling match, the times I've given up in school,etc. It's a confidence thing, it's a willing to move along with fear of finishing thing. I don't know what it is. I can reiterate discussions with my friends so they know why I wasn't into the the point they'd agree, "it wouldn't have worked."
But damn it, that's the point. Working. Jesus was I attracted to her, and even if there were differences, she wanted to get to know me. I gave our age differences as a reason, I gave many the end they boiled down to my being chicken. As if I'm some great thing to give up to a person? Sometimes I wonder if I'm gay? Only I know I'm not because, well, it's a dumb discussion because I'm just not...I just fuck everything up. There doesn't have to be some other reason to the real reason and that reason is this: I'm scared.
But it sucks. I don't care if I know now, now after I've already fucked up. I just keep making the same mistakes and then I think it's ok to mention them afterwards as if it's some kind of way to make me seem "sensual" to the fact that I acknowledge that I've fucked up. Can you pick that up at all? It's like I do it to end it and then regreat what I could have had that I was scared shitless to have in the first place but all I see is the face of a beautiful girl who is simply asking me to fucking try!
How do I keep my bottle? (it's a soccer term) How do I fight everything off, pride, jeers from guyfriends, giggles from girlfriends, hopes from parents...all of this, without thinking, I should glide and hover weightlessly...into a, wait for it, r-e-l-a-t-i-o-n-s-h-i-p.

I try so hard to emphisize that I may have things that ar of importance, and so I'll get annoyed when I think my space is being infringed upon, only it isn't, and I'll feel I have the right to back the situation off. I pride myself on being liberal and wide-minded only I contradict all of this (maybe not) with the way I treat each person that just wants to have fun with me. (I may be off the mark because it just happens that each person I disapoint is a woman, so, forget the above, maybe) As if "I" am some kind of empire that I shant allow to lose control of. and surely not to some giddy young lady whose all giggles just to do with me what normal couples do.
I'm a schmuck and I think I've fucked up for the last time. Not the last time as in next time I'll do better, but, the last time as in I don't think I'll ever get that lucky again. What I mean is there are signs that'll show in each relationship that I think I'll carry to the next and all the regrets I have will reflect in my actions. I jog and think of each time I've fucked up and I shake my head at myself. There are SO many times. So many times that I feel as if I don't have the same life as the person that looks at me in the mirror. Only it has to be the same life because I keep making the same mistakes and the person looking back at me keeps giving me the same looks...
I can't get advice from this thread because I know my fault(s). So did the last two birds I saw, because they pointed everything I just mentioned out to me...but I brushed them off. The definition of emasulated is funny, because it can mean the exact opposite. I'm tired of pushing away people that just want to get to know me and make further memories with me. I wish there were a rant thread rather than this one. I don't even know where I'm going with this, though I know I could have put this together a bit more properly if I tried. As it is I'm drunk...enjoying some chenin blanc, alone, just how I like it. I deserve it, I know it, but I'm tired of deserving it. Surely people give in and accept that someone else wants to be there to absorb the fears of another? It's called belief and you only work towards being on the football field, or wrestling or in school, you work towards finishing each of those. and you don't get to the end until it's there...but you're working the entire time. You're running in soccer and you're in position to score only you have to work for that position to even be on the field and then in that spot and since you're there the ball is played to you and nothing else matters except one of your feet you'll put in position to strike the ball and finish. Just go thru with it, you fucking moron.
(I'm drunk, I'd rather proof read but I'm going to just post because, well just becaus, even if it doesn't make sense it's just because)

I'm not a guy, but a lot of what you posted is familiar to me... especially the (unvoiced by me) fear of committing and the ruminating alone over the chenin blanc. I don't know what to say, except that you do seem to know yourself very well, which is a start. You also seem to be tying yourself in knots, aware of where you're balking but paralyzed to work through it.

For me, I never acknowledged my commitment fears to myself. Instead, I'm with someone who has much the same fears. Oddly, together we work well. I guess that's my way of saying there's different ways to get past the point of paralysis... and you will. In the meantime, go easier on yourself. My 2 cents.
Wow...I might never have read through such a long thread had it not been written by a guy, since I'm on a quest to better understand what really goes on in their heads. Here I was thinking the "he's just scared" rationale was a cop out women lean on when a man is evasive. But evidently not every time. It's sort of reassuring that maybe, just maybe, some of the people in my life who have behaved as you have Doxy were thinking similar things. Doesn't mean we can go back in time, but maybe I wasn't the only one torn up about it.

I've been told by people much wiser than myself that all of this gut wrenching self-discovery does pay off eventually in gradual changes and improvements to the model (yourself). I also buy into the idea that you'll meet someone right when you are finished developing and have conquered these fears. It just sucks to be alone in the meantime, I know.

I recommend Alain de Botton, _On Love_
It is a philosophical study of love, its joys and its discontents written as a novel. Each chapter considers a particular aspect of being in love. It is not cynical at all but it is realistic. Different people will see themselves in different chapters --- I think you'd like "the fear of happiness" and possibly also "Marxism" (Groucho, not Karl).

Then call her.
I'm at a total loss here and I need advice, and I mean lots of it.... I have really been mulling over whether or not to post my "dirty laundry" here because to be honest, I'm embarassed and really really hurt and since we have been invaded by ugly trolls, I wasn't sure I would want them making my wounds worse with their mean words BUT considering the events of the last week, I don't think there is much that a troll could say to me right now that would destroy me any more than I have been already so, here goes.... It has recently come to my attention that my MR. of 6 years (and we have 2 children) has been going onto sites like craiglist and such and finding local MEN with which to engage in various activities that I can't quite bring myself to type right now. He has also been contacing his ex in Cali. but really, considering the other issue at hand, the ex is the least of my concerns! He refuses to admit to me that he has been doing this and has tried to twist EVERYTHING around so that this is all my fault. I actually have copies of his emails where he has contacted these men and they have replied with plans for "hooking up" and the when and the where of it all and also nude pics of these men that he has saved in his email account files. I would like to say that maybe I misunderstood what I read or saw but it is kind of hard to misunderstand some man telling your MR. that he wants your MR.'s big hard cock deep in his throat etc etc etc and your MR. replying with "I'm up for it, when and where, just let me know" and then the man tells him and the MR. says how about tomorrow afternoon, which happened to be a day the MR. had off from work since it was a holiday and the man tells the MR. where he lives and all.... I mean, maybe I'm a little slow here but I can not for the life of me think of anything else this could be besides a request for sex. Also he contacts men so they can get together and have mutual masturbation sessions while watching porn together. OK, so there, I said it. My MR. has rejected me for strange men on the internet! I have been asking him about it in a round about way, like "what is going on with you, I just want to understand why all the sudden you want to leave" etc etc etc.... he said he is NOT contacting anyone, not emailing anyone, not trying to hook up with anyone and even though I hinted that I had "proof" I suppose he doesn't believe me so he just keeps lying to my face everytime I ask him what's going on. I don't want to show him what I have right now, because I may need it later. He has no idea I even know about this "secret" email account. I have several copies of everything stashed in different places. He says he is leaving because of me.... that I am mean, and boring and never like to do anything (he NEVER takes me anywhere, never invites me out with him at all!) and that he hates having sex with me (not that he's ever made a real effort with me in that department)..... I keep telling him that it has nothing to do with me and that I KNOW it has to do with things he has been doing behind my back and he just keeps getting really angry and says I don't know what I'm talking about.... this is the same guy that had me quit my job and stay home with the children and had me making all these plans for moving back to where he is from and blah blah blah and then comes home 2 weeks ago and starts ignoring me and pushing me away, just out of the blue, and suddenly this is something I have done???????
I don't know what to do.... I have to find a job so I can try to support the children and keep us living where we are now because I don't want to have to move them, again, and the MR. is just being soooo abusive and secretive and is all the time leaving me here alone with the children now so he can go out and have his fun and I'm just stuck here, sad and lonely and I just want something nice.... someone nice but I don't think I have enough self esteeem left to even leave my house much less try to make friends or "find someone".... I am too old for this! I did not think I would have to try and "find" someone in my mid thirty's!!!!! This is when I should be happy and settled and having fun with my MR...... WTF happened!!!!!! I guess what I hate the most is the way he is making me feel shitty, like I did something to him, when I KNOW FOR A FACT that he is cheating on me(with MEN at that!)and he just keeps lying and yelling and screaming at me about how horrible I am and making me feel guilty for not trusting him EVEN THOUGH I HAVE THE PROOF, IN BALCK AND WHITE, ON PAPER, FROM HIS ACCOUNT!
I am soooo mad at myself for becoming dependent on him because now I have to let him stay here until school starts back for the children because he is the one with the job and paying the bills now until I can go back to work..... OMG this is the worst shit ever and why in the hell do I feel like this is my fault? maybe there IS something wrong with me? Maybe I'm a bitch? I mean, why would anyone do this to me? Esp. why would MY MR. do this to me? Why would anyone do this to anyone? I have been doing nothing, up until 2 weeks ago, except bending over backwards to make sure HE was happy, that he had his favorite meals for dinner, that I had a lunch made for him everyday, I would go and get him milkshake treats during hot days and bring to him at work, I was always telling him how much I loved him and appreciated everything he did for our family, always showering affection on him even though he pushed me away alot, never doing things I liked if they were not what he liked also.......... I am such a fucking idiot!!!!! I don't even know who I am anymore because I have been all about him for so long...... and this is what I get, a MR. who prefers to spend time with some strange MAN sucking his dick instead of spending time at home or with me or our children.....
I know I should probably just shut up and deal with it but it still really sucks to have the last 6 years of my life mean nothing now..... 6 years! I could have gone back to college and finished my degree plus some, in 6 years.... what a waste of my life this has been......
I guess any advice or whatever would be great right now.... I'm just at a total loss.
And if any of you men out there think you could offer some "guys" insight, I would love to hear it because I am way way way confused...... :-(

Maybe you should hire a P.I and bust him. Are you married?
No we are not married but we have 2 children and he is the primary provider as I don't have a job (per his request)..... I thought about the P.I. thing but I don't have any money, it's all HIS money, he pays for everything.... I might figure out a little DIY P.I. work though..... I have been thinking about it, just have to work it out..... I wish I had friends because I could get them to help but like I said, I've been all about HIM for the past 6 years, so friends are not something I have..... he (says he) doesn't like to socialize so I haven't got to socialize either for a long time..... I guess he does a little more socializing than he would like to admit, hey?
((((voodoo)))) Wow. I'm so sorry.

This is pretty huge and I don't have kids, but it seems to me there are several things you could do. If you are sure he means it, find a lawyer to clarify where you stand legally. It may be that you will have to rearrange your living situation at the same time as you're trying to process your emotional response to this, which must have been a shock. Try to keep them in separate places in your head: addressing the situation legally/financially, and dealing with it emotionally.

It also sounds like he's isolated you from friends and family, so it's understandable that you're doubting yourself. Just remember he's the one who caused this, not you, and *don't blame yourself*. This situation is not your fault.

And don't worry; I've posted all kinds of embarrassing stuff here, and it's helped me in the past. (((voodoo and kids)))
(((((Voodoo))))) Vent anyway you need to, girl! This a safe space for you. If you encounter any tr*ll drama, you just shout old AP a holler & I'll go after any o' them evil tr*lls like a rabid pitbull in a fetching summer dress & kicky wedges.
*sybarite* thanks for the thoughts and advice and *aural* thanks for making me smile! I'll let you know if the troll-heads come after me....
I think I will be really happy, on one level, when this is over but I'm really afraid I won't know what to do with myself and that I don't know how to socialize anymore and that I'll just end up sitting in my apartment, scared and lonely and bitter....... I guess it doesn't help anyway that I have no self esteem and a very low self opinion..... GOD, I used to be so full of life! What the hell happened?
Voodoo--so sorry for your pain that would be bad enough if it was just a regular split. With this twist of the knife, it has to be awful.

I think printing out the emails and pics you have and storing them somewhere safe might be useful in any potential custody dispute later. If you've hinted at knowing, he might go in and delete this just to be safe.

Each state has different common law marriage policies and alimony/child support rules, but I would think you are entitled to receive some financial support.

This is too big to deal with alone. When you have the energy and focus, which might take a while to summon up, scour the phone book or web for resources in your area for crisis counseling and legal aid. You have to have someone to look after you right now.

Screw the voyeurs who get their pervy kicks from eavesdropping here and definitely use it as a place for support. But do protect yourself from your Mr. having access to what you write or research. Clear your cache of sites visited, delete cookies, and change your passwords (I think I've got all my terminology right--basically, anything that leaves a trail).

Good luck with this. You are probably much stronger than you realize.
Voodoo, I can only imagine how you are holding up for your children. It's got to be tough. I don't have any children, but it's very hard for me to hide things like this when I go through them. Your Mr. sounds very toxic for you. You are in an abusive relationship. Get out!! Get your ducks in a row and get out fast!!! Start connecting with your higher self and cut him off emotionally. Start weeding him out of your psyche, easier said than done, but start slowly. He is toxic.

You will know what to do with yourself once you are out of that toxic relationship/environment. Don't worry about that. Everything will come back to you, including your self esteem and self worth. Sorry this happened to you. Love yourself. Love your children. Cut the Mr. off, even though your still living with him, don't tell him shit, get your ducks in a row, pretend like everythings fine, and then leave and have your lawyer contact him. Do you have any family to help you?
Sorry about all the exclamation points. If we were talking in person I wouldn't shout at you, so I shouldn't be writing exclamation points at you.
You have always come across here as someone who is very full of life, with lots to offer. It wouldn't be surprising if you lost confidence being with a man who, deep down, doesn't want a woman, especially if you didn't know what was going on --- it would be so easy to turn all feelings of rejection onto yourself.
I second (third? fourth?) the suggestion that you get legal advice asap so you know your situation. The fact you quit working at his suggestion should work in your favour for getting support, I would think. And I don't think there is any state (lord, I hope not) where a man can father children and then abandon them without consequences.

As for the Mr., he may be in a total state of denial about what he wants and what he's doing. Still, that isn't your problem any more. You problem is you and the children.

You're going to be fine. I'm divorced and, as you know, I have one child. It is hell, hell, hell going through it but you will come out the other end and life will be so good.
Such good advice friend knew for a year that she wanted a divorce and but stayed with him and re-established herself in the working world first. I'm not saying that is what you should do or anything, just know that others have gone through similar things and survived...better than that, even! They have thrived, eventually. You can do it.

Sybarite's advice of approaching your emotional recovery and your legal/practical moves as separate things is really important things. I wish I knew offhand where you could get some legal consultation for free...perhaps a women's shelter could be of assistance to you in this regard.

This isn't your fault. You can change your life and be much better off in the future! Good luck to you! Keep venting and keep us updated! ((voodoo))
OMG this just gets better and better! I swear!
OK, so the MR. has "decided" that maybe we should try spending time together and go do things together to "try to work this out" BUT (here comes the OMG part......) he is only going to give it a try if I agree TO CHANGE! ME.... CHANGE!!!!!! OMF-ingG!!!!!!! He says I have to "go back to being the fun and crazy person I was 6 years ago" (before he SUCKED the life right outa' me!!!!) AND I have to start having "CRAZY, NON - CONSERVATIVE" sex with him, in the manner in which HE dictates!!!!!! Because according to him (now) sex with me sucks (but apparently not as well as the men from craigslist suck..... sorry, had to say it!) Because, of course, this is ALL MY FAULT and he is PERFECT and I NEED TO CHANGE so he will do me the favor of trying to work this out!!!!! What an arrogant f-ing bastard!!!!! I suppose my "conservativeness" (?????, whatever) is what drove him to enjoy having strange men tickle his pickle!!!!! And let me say right now, that I mean NO OFFENSE to any men (or friends of men) who "enjoy the company of" other men HOWEVER, this is MY MR. we are talking about here, someone I was married to, some I have children with, someone who was supposed to LOVE me, so as far as I am concerned, in this case, HIS behaviour is TOTALLY not acceptable!!!! I mean if he wanted an "alternative lifestyle" he could have let me in on it before I wasted 6 years of my life!!!!!! Before totally damaging my mental well being!!!! It just blows me away that he really truely BELIEVES that he has done NO WRONG and that HE is the victim here! And he thinks that I'm bullshitting when I say that I KNOW he's been up to something..... he thinks he's got this in the bag, so to speak, since I won't "show my hand" and let him see what I have as "proof"..... WHATEVER! I know what's what and I'm not as stupid as he thinks!
Well, let me just say that I declined his OH SO GENEROUS OFFER of working things out.... (I think he's pissed cause I didn't "swoon" over the offer!)
Things are "civil" on the homefront right now and I hope to keep them that way until I get a job and get stable.
I certainly hope things start looking up cause as far as I'm concerned, this is the WORST!!!!!
And let me thank everyone here for being soooo kind and supportive....... if I didn't have you all, I would be going nuts right now! I love you all! You gals are the BEST! :-)
Just stating the obvious, v.p., but if you two are having sex, it needs to be protected...take care of yourself!
*shaking head* I think all men read from the same play book when going through divorce! Voodoo, I totally agree that you need to get into counseling yourself...not with him...and start working on finding yourself again. It will help you to make positive forward steps if you have someone reaffirming that THIS IS NOT YOUR FAULT!!!! Damn, all I really want is to see people own their shit!
this guy is gross. In 6 years were there any sort of signs he might be gay, or would be capable of this? I feel like I have heard this happen to so many women and I always wonder, are there signs before? I would like to know for my own good!

It's not your fault voodoo, not even REMOTELY close. I am sure hes a controlling asshole and hes an idiot (among other things) for not realizing that he has totally ripped your life out of your own hands.

Please get a job ASAP and get away from this psycho! Also, other people have stressed this as well, make sure you print out and document everything you have been finding and DONT let him know bc if hes as controlling as you make him out to be he could turn dangerous.
"Damn, all I really want is to see people own their shit!"

I agree.

Mr.voodoo_prince is so toxic. Gah! Que Mal!
Hey, sorry for going totally OT but: is there still a thread for moving in with one's partner/boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse/whatever? I think it was A Room of Our Own. Either it's gone or I totally can't find it.
amilita - we do not and have not slept together in a while, due to his "sudden" disinterest (oh, and the fact that I'M BORING, ha ha ha, right!) but I am totally going for some testing since he doesn't seem to have been bothered enough to be concerned with my health and well being.

pixiedust - thanks and I agree.... I have come to terms with this, sort of, and really what I want right now is for him to ADMIT what he's done because HEARING the words from HIS mouth will be a sort of therapy all in itself. I want him to ADMIT he is the bad person and he is wrong here, NOT ME..... The more I think about it, the more I have come to think that I ROCK and can do soooo much better with someone else, NOT HIM! He has made me feel worthless and ugly but I'm starting to come around to the fact that I am worth sooooo much MORE than HE ever will be and there is someone else out there who WILL think me beautiful and want me for who I am!
I am past the initial SHOCK phase and now I am good and angry because the selfish, arrogant bastard has totally convinced himself that HE DOES NO WRONG and maybe it's petty of me BUT I want him to admit what he's done!!!! I just do!!!!! AAAUUUGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!!

katieb - looking back, I try to think if there was any outright "sign" but really, NO..... nothing really that jumps out. I would have never thought something like this in a million years until I started seeing the little things on the PC here and there like recently..... for example, a HUGE interest in cross dressing men and websites that promote transgender / transexual porn stuff, an account membership at sites like "out"personals or something like that which is a dating / hook up site for "alternative lifestyles" and when I asked him about this stuff he would get REALLY REALLY REALLY angry and defensive like the fact that I even SUGGESTED he would be interested in such a thing was just beyond gross! He said it's "not what you think it is" and I'm like uuuhhhh well..... a homosexual dating site is pretty much just that since the women there aren't going to be into you since your a guy, then that leaves the MEN!!!!!!!! And of course the dead give away about this web site was I read his profile he created and it SAID catagory "MEN seeking MEN"..... seems pretty clear to me!!!!!! I am sooo sick of being treated like I'm stupid!!!!!!
So anyway, it's the little things here and there that led me to actually hack the system and find the stuff I found..... Still one hell of a shock tho, let me tell you..... And I thought I just had to worry about other WOMEN, boy oh boy was I blown away!!!!!!!
The biggest tip off though, just that there was a HUGE problem, was the sudden withdrawal and anger towards me, for NO reason at all. Very very moody and hateful and mean with NO provocation.... must be that GUILT eating his ass up!!!!! And I say GOOD, let it eat him up! I hope he rots!!!!!! And I hope his dick falls off because that would be just too much poetic justice!!!!!!!!

You all are the best! I feel so much better already!
just like another busty said, you are much stronger than you think you are and honestly, i am impressed by how quickly you got over the sadness and felt the anger you should rightly be feeling. sometimes getting to that stage and that realization is also therapy in and of itself. either way, you are going to be JUST fine.

that being said, after being cheated on by a boyfriend (with a girl and we werent married so the situation is much much less extreme) i felt the same way you did voodoo, that you WANTED, NEEDED to hear it from his mouth. It's not petty, its human nature so please dont beat yourself up over feeling that need!
voodoo, chicabella, all my heart-sympathy to you girl. that hurts. wow.

listen to me now, coming from an abusive relationship where i was OBSESSED afterwards with hearing him admit what he had done to me i can say this:
no one can rest their own acceptance and healing on ANYTHING that another person does. the difference between you getting over this and you not getting over this is how you go about it yourself. forget about him "owning his shit" or whatever you want to call that. do NOT hinge your own progress on where he's at in his head, that is total sabotage. you can plainly see how messed he is, why wait around to get your shit together until he gets his shit together when he is so obviously far from being there? girl, release yourself from him, take this into YOUR OWN TWO HANDS and deal with it from there. you are the one on the healing path with regard to this shit show, stay on it, don't veer off to attend to where he is at (total denial and totally fucked up). be with yourself, you need you so much right now. keep your healing within yourself where you have control over it. it's all about you anyhow. his shit is his, don't make it yours.

be well.
Well said pepper.

I hate it when my boyfriend doesn't call me back when I have to talk to him about something. I feel like he isn't there for me when I need him sometimes. I mean not a f*cking call back at all.
Warning: Vent.

AHHHHHH! I am so completely pissed.
1) My guy gets a speeding ticket months ago--his fault.
2) He sits on the paperwork and does nothing about it... for MONTHS--his fault.
3) He tells me a -week- ago that the deadline for the turn-in of the traffic school ticket is on 06/15--his fault.
4) I go out and rent (FOR HIM) the damn tapes from Blockbuster; $42 down the drain--my fault for mothering him, most likely.
5) The tapes sit on his desk at home, unopened, unwatched, for days--his fault.
6) I remind him about it and he gets pissed and says I am nagging him--his fault.
7) I call his work today to check in, say the usual "How are you? I love you" and ask him if he watched the tapes. He not only said no, but also that his entire day is ruined, his "stomach is churning and burning like the pits of hell," and that he is EXTREMELY stressed now, all because of ME--HIS FAULT.
7) I call Blockbuster and ask how long it takes to watch the tapes (to see if he still has time). He has to call in by midnight tonight, and he gets off work at 9:30pm. There are three tapes with 1.5 hours of content on each. Shall I say it again? By god, I shall!--his fault.

So now he's not going to make a deadline (again), and I am going to be blamed for it and put down because of it (again), when I did everything in my power (even when I probably shouldn't have) to help him make it. Just bloody wonderful.

What about my stress level, because he can't get his shit together? Why the hell is he making it out to be my damn fault?! Sometimes I wonder whether I am in a committed relationship with an adult, or just babysitting someone else's grown son. *bangs head on office desk* GRRRR.

seraphine, yes to that last little part. right before the head banging bit.
i think they are all just babies really. last night i was just so pissed at my man, he was being sooo annoying and it's the same thing every time! he is rude to me because he's cranky. and why is he cranky? because he stayed out with his stupid friends that he doesn't even like-and he was out too late. so then he takes it out on me.

it's like-why didn't you just stay home if you knew you were tired and didn't feel better? why did you come over and ruin MY evening?

i said i was thinking about sleepign at his place last night, and he said "why would you do that?" um, uh....what? i was so hurt and then he's all oh, you're telling me to leave? gak. he's sooo bad at communicating and it's making me insane!!!!! for the most part he's a great guy, but the dude needs to learn how to express himself and take care of his ass-i'm not going to be the mommy!!!!!

Sorry to change the subject here, but I'm having a problem. I feel myself getting into a serious relationship for the first time in 5 years, which is great, BUT it's making me realize how much mental stuff I am carrying around from the last one. He was kind of emotionally manipulative and we broke up and got back together several times over the course of a 3 year relationship. One of the last times I saw him he told me he didn't think he ever loved me....all of this, and I just thought "Fine, you're a jerk, I'm moving on." I've dated lot's of guys since, but no real relationship. Now, I find myself actually really afraid to get serious because the last thing I want to do is go through all that crap again. I still remember how awful I felt, how anxious and unloved and all that garbage with my ex. I know this guy is nothing like my ex, in fact he's really ideal for me (similar interests, jobs, family background etc.), but I'm constantly worried that he will just up and decide he's not interested anymore. Plus he just got out of a serious relationship and wants to take things slowly, and really that should be okay. Anyway, I know I'm rambling now, but I had kind of a crappy day because of it....and I guess I just want some advice or insight. Thanks guys!
(((jkat))) Sadly I cannot offer you very much advice, other than always believing in yourself and what you feel is right. Some wounds take years to heal. Perhaps talking to this new fellow about your past will allow him to help you mend your wounds. My heart goes out to you.

My current relationship is perfectly wonderful, minus the usual road-bumps that we all hit every now and then. One glaring issue though has been raking its claws across my heart. When angry enough, my boyfriend of three years spits foul and derogatory terms at me with apparent ease. It's crushing because I could never imagine saying such horrible things to someone I love. We -have- had multiple long discussions about this, together and with our therapist, and regardless of how firm I am in saying, "Quit this NOW," he persists with the explanation that he knows it's wrong but just can't help doing it sometimes (it's a way for him to blow steam). He never takes it to a higher tier, and always excuses himself afterward, regains composure, returns and apologizes. The guy is so sweet and loving otherwise, it's almost like a monster within takes over. My question is why doesn't he just quit saying that crap to me in the first place?

Thoughts? Advice? Is anyone else going through/has anyone else gone through a similar situation?
Just be careful Seraphine. Gonna break my own rule and post something personal on this subject...My ex used to spew like that..and say the meanest things that "of course he didn't really mean". Or if we were in the car..he would drive like a maniac...or if a passenger..just jump out while the car is moving(all things that are listed as emotional abuse by experts)And then when he was really angry...he would hit the wall...or use a pillow fight to get his aggression out. But he didn't hit me so I wasn't being abused, right? During our divorce..he put multiple holes in my walls and congratualted himself for "having enough control to not hit me". And then he assulted my mom...and someone else...and I had to get a retraining get the picture. Things escalate!
Normally, I wouldn't go into such a discussion just based on what you wrote...but given the way you asked the question in the forum...and the fact that you are already getting counsling for it...I just want you to remember that just because it "isn't really that bad" doesn't mean it can't get there before you ever realize it's heading in that direction. I never in a million years thought my exhusband was capable of the things he did....and I know a lot of his friends are still in denial refusing to believe that some of this stuff really happened.
seraphine-how often does this happen? i had a fight with my boyfriend last week because when he's grumpy he just snaps at me, and isn't aware of it. he won't say anything that's actually mean, but it's the way he says stuff that is hurtful to me. i know that's totally different...

it sounds like he doesn't WANT to stop, because of course he can change if he WANTS to. i would think he'd be really troubled by this need to call you horrible names. it concerns me that it doesn't concern him.

what do you do when he does this? walk out? what? i'd probably just cry:-(
pixie, i second the escalation theory. watch that business, it shows a dangerous lack of self control.
I spent many years single as a result of being shellshocked by two bad relationships (left a seven year abusive relationship for a man who was like a Prince Charming until he dumped me 6 months later). I still have alot of abandonment/doing the wrong thing kind of problems, but I also know that I've learned really important lessons from my past and am much more clear on the kind of relationships I'm willing to have.
Just remind yourself that you're stronger and wiser and more self-aware now than you were 5 years ago and let yourself trust your own wisdom.
We all have baggage. The natch of it is in how we decide we're going to carry it.
pixiedust, maddy29, pepper, thank you all for your responses. My guy also tends to drive like a maniac, but I think that is more due to lack of skill, heh. He also used to hit walls, but hasn’t lately. He doesn’t start pillow fights, but if in one, he gets pretty damn aggressive. “But he didn’t hit me, so I wasn’t being abused, right?” Your words sounded so familiar.

I do get the picture. Sometimes I try to deny it, but I do think of the reality that this –might- indeed escalate into something nasty. My response the first few times was to sit there dumbfounded, then just start to quietly cry. Shock just absorbed any words I could possibly muster. The time before last I told him that he was to leave if he ever said them again. Well, he did, and I was a pansy and only reiterated what I said before, allowing him to skirt around it all and talk his way out of it. Damnit.

It does sound like he doesn’t want to stop, doesn’t it? Or that he just doesn’t care enough to? He says it’s just something he does. While I am very forgiving, I find little forgiveness for any of this.

I’m going to talk to our therapist again, and put him on the spot if need be. What do you think, busties? Is this something that I need to work with him on him overcoming, or should I just flat out kick his ass out of the house for awhile if he speaks to me that way again?

Thank you again for your help. It’s hard to separate your love for someone for so long, even when you know something definitely needs to change.
((seraphine)) I don't want to make any unrealistic assumptions here, but your boyfriend sounds a LOT like my ex. He was emotionally and verbally abusive and weakened my defenses to the point where I thought it was ok and sadly, just "the way he is". He would get incredibly aggressive, driving like a maniac or breaking things. I always used to worry that one day it would escalate to the point when I was his next physical target. Never again do I want to feel that way. The fact that I had to wonder at all really meant it was all wrong. I threw him out and it was the hardest yet best decision I have ever made. I regret nothing and now understand that his aggression was because of his insecurity and in fact had nothing to do with me. Other than being intimidated by the fact that I had an opinion.

For your sake, I hope your situation is different, but if he makes you feel bad or scared at all it's not worth it. You're more valuable than that.

And on a much much lighter note I have a boy question. I met him in my Dance class (he is a fantastic dancer) and we sort of started chatting one class and he complemented me and we exchanged numbers and such, and he said we should teach each other some moves. I never called because I knew I would see him in class a few days later. So two classes have passed and we smile and say hi and not much more. I sort of chatted for 2 minuted with him today but then we had to separate for the class. And today was our last class. What do you think, should I call him or what? He hasn't asked me out or anything. Does it sound like I misread him? Ugh im soo bad at dating.
I've been there citruss...And since I posted earlier it's like a flood gate has opened. First, Kudos for recognizing the problem and trying to get help. Even while the worst of things was going on, I still didn't believe that my ex was capable of abusing me or that I was dumb enough to let someone abuse me.
It took my mom, a police officer, another man I trusted, and finally a therapist to get it through to me that I hd been abused for very long time and that because of the subtlty in it, I didn't realize it was getting worse.
My ex also ignored me a great deal. I almost think that was the worst abuse. Just feeling unloved and unwanted.
As for trying to rehabilitate him...I don't know about your situation...But as much as I loved my ex husband...there was no way I could ever look at him the same after things happened, and I would forever be scared that he would snap again. Granted, my situation was pretty drastic. I mean, I wrestled a gun out of his hands one night. So I don't think I could give you good advice on that. My perception on any kind of abuse is different than your average person.

As for your dance friend citrussss...why not call him up and see if he wants to go chill at a club somewhere where you can put your moves in action. He gave you his didgets. Wouldn't do that if he didn't want you to call. Boys are simple that way.
Hey, thanks seraphine and saktii. I know it's pretty much my own head I have to deal with here, but I am just driving myself CRAZY!!! I talked to him last on Thursday and we have plans to do a movie night when work settles down for him (he's a high school teacher) but it's making me mental that he hasn't called yet. I have no reason to be worried, but I have all these thoughts and insecurities going through my head. ARGH! I am not an insecure person by nature, so this is especially frustrating. But perhaps a good exercise in self-control for me...
"It's just something he does"- I reallllly don't like that at all. I mean, he doesn't even apologize? He doesnt' even realize how wrong that is! He just excuses it as something he just does, as if he has no control over it. That really worries me.

It's totally your choice what to do about this. If you want to try to work it out, it's really up to him if he is willing to work on changing or not. And then, what happens next time he does it? Maybe you can work this out with your therapist-like sort of have a plan? How many times will you take him back, etc.

I think kicking him out and then taking him back, when nothing has changed, won't get you anywhere. It's not enough to just say "leave the house for a while" and then take him back, becuase all he'll learn from that is that it's kinda ok with you that he calls you names. He knows you'll "forgive" him.

PErsonally, I would flip the fuck out if my boyfriend called me a nasty name. I yell at him when he's driving too fast because it's not ok just because he's feeling grumpy- to put our lives in danger. He grumbles but slows down, becuase he knows I'm serious.

I didn't want to jump to conclusions about your man, but given that he used to punch walls, and the fast driving, and the nasty names, that's a lot of red flags. Plus, it's just not ok for him to treat you like that, plain and simple. Whether or not it ever escalates it's not ok.

Hope you are doing ok.....

The most eye opening thing that happened to me was when my mother got assulted and the police sent me a bunch of domestic violence phamplets that shows the patterns and things that are really mental/emotional abuse that you might not really even realize is a subtle form of abuse. I would suggest is you have a womens shelter/DVIS or some other authority on teh subject that could give you those types of phamplets it might help you to make an informed decision about how bad it "really is". Frankly, if it is bad enough that you are asking all of us about it, I think it has probably already gone too far.
sera, you may want to change your sn, or get another one in order to maintain anonymity.
ps Abuse is about control and the fear of losing it. Ill-treatment is an absurd effort to maintain and enhance the abuser's hegemony - social, cultural, legal, and, above all, psychological. Abusers exploit, lie, insult, demean, ignore (the "silent treatment"), manipulate, and control. There are a million ways to abuse, directly and by proxy. To expect too much, to denigrate, to ignore - are all modes of abuse. There is physical abuse, verbal abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse. The list is long. Most abusers abuse surreptitiously. They are "stealth abusers". You have to actually live with one in order to witness the mistreatment.

I wish I could have convinced these people"....and I know a lot of his friends are still in denial refusing to believe that some of this stuff really happened." of the fact that "They are "stealth abusers". You have to actually live with one in order to witness the mistreatment."

I think that is what still hurts me the most. I don't like those people anymore. There isn't any of them that I would want in my life again because of the things that have happened...and I almost feel like I was abused all over again just because of the fact that he did so much damage to me and he walks off with all of our friends and I am the bitch because I cheated on him with men who treated me right. I was just too weak to leave.
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