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==== first I wanna say=====

I LOVE this Thread !!!!!!!bc you all are so wicked cool and smart and opinionated but yet respectful and thoughtful of one another at the same time.
much love.
just much much.

that said: catch up time !

Mando: ran your debate past both frecklette & the mr.
he said: read it. she said : No Way!
can't say I was overly suprised by either response, and then it gave us an opportunity to discuss internet saftey and saftey in general as we are still progressively trusting her to be home alone from time to time.
I still have a hard time feeling ok w/ her being here alone when it's dark, but it gets dark so damn early now, I hate to admit but we're already getting spoiled from having some Alone Errand Time.she is going to do some in-house kid-sitting for a parents night out at the mr's workplace, but it will be w/in a secure location w/ adults present so isn't really the same.
- anyway! thankyou for the opportunity for good discussion for the future. she's a bit younger than your boy but I know the time is coming when she'll want one.. as in once she gets her laptop (Xmas most likely) & we get the house wired for wireless and let her online on her own ( still being considered & will absolutely be probationary at best). the way you handled it was Just Right and you have a coolness that I can only covet. the amount of respect and control you demonstrate in your relationship with him is honestly really beautiful.

the CBC thread.
only peeked in there once. I have such humongous enormous RESPECT for CBC'er's, I'd really like to tell them as much. I was a CBC'er til I met the mr too, though in reality only a brief time of my adulthood it's true. now I am constantly barraged by incredibly rude and insensative people constantly asking me, no wait- Telling Me that I need to have more kids. as if pointing out that my girl is already 12 is going to be suprising to me like an Oops I forgot to have more? kind of concept?
really makes me crazi. and ANGRY. it's not just that it's a Personal Choice, but there is more at stake than just popping out another kid like spititng out a watermellon seed but it's none of the damn business of anyone else so I smile and joke and silently seethe. Bust the print edition this month has a rockin' good article on CBC. I admit I normally don't buy bust anymore, but this month I did and am so glad.
y'all might want to check it out maybe.

pepper: MUCH sorry little has the icks.
I will now admit something too: I had honestly thought impetig was Pink Eye!
I feel silly. hee! never too late to keep learning. freck had the pox when she was younger.. say9ish maybe?
got exposed at a clinic waiting room but never broke out real bad so they were never sure. treated her for it all the same but then also never ruled it out futurely. medicine might be a science but it's not an exact one.

I ditto gren's feelings about mouse staying w/ us.
and tigers and ratgrl's and whoever else is out there lurking at the moment and reading us.
it's o k if you don't have kids, now or futurely, as long as you have something to share in a positive manner.
sometimes as parents, we lose perspective on things (me me meeeee) and that outside view is crazily welcome. you /we are all welcome here, even those who had a less than ideal start with us, come on back.
Vodoo Princess Evangeline get your Windy City Booty back here NOW! don't Make me come after you! hee!! tongue.gif

gren: as far as 'childhood obsession's ' welllll, frecklette was really into her cuddly peterrabbit stuffed animal, and her kitty, and now at 12 Loves Animals and her kitty cat still, so I don't know. yes?
she also loved books though even when she was wee-Wee small, and as y'all know is a crazi reader/writer to this day. I honestly kinda think that's where the home-influence may come into play. the Nurture over Nature, you know?
if you consistently provide opportunities for your little to play and watch sports, esp ones he seems most to enjoy, then yah, I think maybe that's Nuture: whereas if you took all that away from him and he Still grew up to become a professional athlete, then you know it was in his dna.
don't know if that helps or I just rambled on some outloud? biggrin.gif

bought the wee girl an MP3 player today.
total Impulse Buy as I was at Bath & Body Works shopping for myself.
no idea really what is is or what is does beside play music, but it was $30** and it seemed like a good idea in the moment.
for Xmas her Big Gift is probably going to be a laptop.
on the premise that it Should help her get more organized w/ things in a central and portable location. (ties in w/ all the stuff we;ve been dealing w. her lately, which I am happy to report does seem to be improving in the short time it's been- yah!). she already had our old dinosaur computer that we replaced, but it was huge and took up too much space so gone it is.
as to being online, that's another story. she's still very very limited as to the state of her academics as to when she is allowed online to email friends etc. for homework that's one thing, but for social purposes, no.

does anyone have any recommendations as to good ones?
the mr has one for work but I never touch it and he keeps it mostly w/ him at work anyway so please, have mercy on a mama whom it will most likely fall to to purchase this as the mr doesn't seem in a real hurry, even though this was His Idea.

ok ok, shutting up again!
mucho smoocho's to all ~~~~~~~~

Can I come to play? We're apple fanatics here in moxieland, so I might suggest a refurbished apple ibook...they're not the cheapest laptops on the market, but apple has Awesome warranties and LOADS of good educational stuff. Plus, SUPER easy to use and hard to fuck up- software/hardware wise. There, apple praise done.

i like being here too, even though moxette is still pretty darned wee. not newborn wee anymore (thank goodness), but not yet computer ready wee. Just perfect wee. And teething like an SOB. It does get better, right? she spiked a fever yesterday, and was fussy today, but both moxieman and our doc (and me) can't find anything wrong with, we think the teeth are comin. I hope so.

re:the pox...there's a friggin vaccine out there now for it! I know pepper isn't a vaccinating mom, so bath exposure was PERFECT (my mom did the same when my sister got the pox...we were TOGETHER until I broke out), but I'm amazed that she'll never have to deal with the pox. Or Cervical cancer. I love vaccines.

Re: pink eye- that's goopy cruddy eye. Moxette had it last week (and we have it this week), and there's nothing pretty and pink about it.

speaking of which, my little one is awaking from an evening snooze...time to goplay.


apple apple apple apple, freckle. seriously. they also do educational discounts in the states, so you might be able to get cheaper.

gren, on the childhood obsessions. age three-five mine were: thomas the tank engine, animals, james herriot, and gerald durrel. and animals. and james herriot. and animals. and guess what I'm gonna be when I grow up... tongue.gif . a freaking vet. some do, some don't. my brother was obsessed with ball games as a kidlet, and he's going to do stage direction at uni so...

on the cbc thing... I'm currently leaning towards the cbc/adoption. I'm only 20, so it's a lean. I've talked it over with my mum... she's pretty cool with it. The other day, she said to me "I've seen some gorgeous toys in the jl catalogue. As his grandmama, I am allowed to buy him the xylophone, the drum, and all the other toys that will drive his mother mad. Or the dog equivalent of a drum, anyway" rolleyes.gif

The only traumatic thing I can think of is fracturing my arm - my friend M pushed me over and I fell over A on my arm. I was six, but within a few months I was playing trenches with the boys again. Oh, and watching my mother have an asthma attack and being hospitalized (aged seven)... I thought she was going to die, and ever since have been extra-careful when she starts wheezing. I think my hatred of airports springs from a similar thing - watching her trying not to have an attack while running from one end of singapore airport to the other to catch a flight while trying to keep hold of my baby brother and my suitcase. It depends - personally and honestly, I'd say the kidlet in the next room, maybe with grandparents/aunts/friends/whatever, so he can see bebe when all is well and calm. More because I'd be afraid of something wee getting stood on/tripped over if people were having to run around; what would happen if he was to get upset?
awww, freckle, i'm touched you put my dilemma to your mr and frecklette. and your "the amount of respect and control you demonstrate in your relationship with him is honestly really beautiful" also made me cry. quite possibly cuz i often feel like a big fat phony here. you guys never hear about when i scream at him (usually for good reason, or so it seems at the moment anyway) or when i'm down or mad and just don't feel like social contact, and he knows full well to give me a wide berth then. i'm not as manic as i'm making myself sound. but i sure as hell ain't the picture perfect mom either.

we vaccinated danny for chickenpox. when it was new, too. the doc didn't push it, but i guess i was afraid to lose a week of work. at the time, every penny was crucial.

freckle, i think trusting frecklette to be alone for short periods is fine. and if it's early evening, that's ok. i know what you mean about it getting dark so early, though - right at prime errand time. i don't like to leave danny alone at night, either. but i think it's important for all of you to get used to it. i bet frecklette will make a superb babysitter. i wish danny would consider babysitting, but he won't. stupid gender-issue peer pressure.

oh and danny has a dell xps 140, which he and i "built" & purchased on the dell website. it took us a good two months to research and figure out. the bad thing about dell is that they charge so much for all the "extras" that you really do need, especially if you want it to last 2-4 yrs. we didn't get it fully loaded, but damn near ... and it wound up costing $1300 (grandma helped). we didn't spring for the extended warranties, but i'm about to look into it now, since whatever warranty we have is due to expire in february. we've only needed to contact technical support once or twice, and they were great - although i've heard horror stories. we went with dell mainly because we have friends/family who know PC's intimately and we figure if something goes wrong, they can help us.

but with all these pros i'm giving you, danny says his next laptop will be an apple. and having just had my desktop fry out this past weekend (luckily a friend gave us a new & improved hard drive, but we lost everything), when we have to replace this thing brand new, i'll probably get an iBook too. my first computers were macs ... i'm an apple-lover at heart.

now that i've totally added to your confusion. unsure.gif

not in the right frame o'mind to revisit thoughts of childhood traumas, and found the last cbc debate to be really distasteful & unnecessary, so i'll bow out of both of those discussions, pleasethankyou.
i was cbc before i had little too but i never felt loathing for children or parents and i saw first hand how hard it is (my mom was on her own with 3 of us, not her choice either) and that you just can't cast judgement on an entire relationship when you have witnessed 25 seconds of it. or even when you think you are fairly familiar with it, it's just a complex thing. yes, there is obvious abuse, of course, but a lot of the critisism i hear and read about kids and parents and families is just personal, biased judgment. that's yucky. but it's out there about everything, not just parenting. people are opinionated.

unfortunately the pox vaccine is NOT forever. it wears off at about age 20 and it's DANGEROUS to get it at such a late age. so kids who have the vaccine young MUST have it again when they are older, especially girls because pox during pregnancy can be deadly to the baby. that's one of my biggest bitches with that vaccine. i don't like that it was made to be convenient either, i know that it's very important to some parents not to have their kids get sick but the pox is a simple illness and getting it goes far in stimulating the immune system which in turn prevents or minimizes future illnesses.
now the anti-cavity vaccine? colour me severely tempted by that one.

i think it's funny that we can prevent spots but we can't find an effective treatment for pms. the priorities on these scientists!

little will be 6, same age that i was. he knows that the baby is coming, he knows how it got in there and how it will get out, he's super excited about the pregnancy and having a little sibling. we look at a picture book (real photos) of what the baby looks like as it's developing and there are pics of birth in there as well. and my sisters will both be here as well as possibly a girlfriend or two and one of the neighbours has offered to have him over when the time comes. i wouldn't have him right in the room as i'm birthing, i need to focus right then and if he got upset i'm afraid my first instinct would be to stop what i was doing and comfort him immediately. being an only parent with him has made be hyper aware of his needs. but, in the next room, with cartoons and toys and a companion? if it's at night i expect him to sleep right through it and wake up to a new little person but if it's during the day it's gonna be a long, long day for him.
i guess we'll see how it plays out when the time comes. like everything this has been an exercise for me in keeping an open mind.
i have nothing but compassion and admiration for single parents. i just don't understand how you can hate children as if all children were the same - and again, my life decision was to not have kids. but the bean intervened (when i was pregnant i called him "fred," and a friend of mine said, "i think fred's really smart. i think fred is controlling everything!", which i thought was a great way to look at it.
pepper, if i can ask...what's the situation with you and bf? how do you see him being involved in your/littler's life when the time comes (and little's too, of course)?

aw, freck, thanks for all the thoughts! it's so true that people put that pressure to procreate on parents too. i'll check out the bust article.

mornington, you're actually scaring me that he will be a ball player. he does love books too (just books about balls).

speaking of the young person, he is in the bath right here grabbing his junk and chanting "wow whoa wow whoa!"
ha ha.
he has also plugged the drain with an avocado pit ("ball").

he just said "light is bright."

goodnight, ladies.
thanks blanche, we're pretty excited too.

grenadine, that's a complicated question that i don't know exactly how to answer. he's amazing with little, really great. it was a deciding factor in our relationship in the beginning, my last serious partner was rather ambivalent about children even though he wanted us to have one or some. this boy love Love LOVES kids and they adore him right back.

he had shitty parenting himself so his technical parenting is not great. he doesn't get a lot of the finer details of why you do things differently with kids and discipline, that they aren't intellectually like adults. it can be problematic, we don't agree. what parents do though?

i won't live with him though, we tried that and it wasn't good. i'm not the easiest person to live with, i'm particular about my space, where stuff goes and cleanliness. and he's messy and a junk collector and likes everything to look like it was salvaged from the 70's (uck). i eat a really healthy diet, go to bed early (ha, well i try), keep things simple and quiet. he's not exactly in line with all of that, he's a big kid, irresponsible, messy, terrible eating habits, drinks and smokes pot, plays really loud music, etc etc. so, no living together. it's bad for my health and we don't get along when we do it. (i'm not at all convinced that men and women are meant to live together in the first place. i don't like it with any guy, i prefer my own space.)
now, if he lives in his own home and just visits we mostly get along fine. that's the way i like it, he's on good behavior when he's just visiting, he helps out, he brings fun stuff, he fixes my computer. and while he's great with kids i expect to do the bulk of the parenting. because i'm better at it and that's better for them. i wouldn't send them for overnights to his house for many reasons, one of the strongest being that he couldn't go the entire time without a drink and a joint. i don't let that bother me, it's his problem to deal with. but i do let it influence my decisions about exposure. he can't smoke at my house, or drink, and it's hard on him.

he's a good guy, the loving is fantastic, he loves my son and will love this baby too (he's bragging to all of his friends), he makes his own money and is generous and considerate in a lot of ways. i'm not in love with him though. i love him and that's enough for me (passionate love always leads to trouble for me, it eats me alive!).

was that a good answer? whew, it's a long one.
that was a very good answer. i guess i was mainly curious as to how you see your life/home situation unfolding, especially because it seemed unconventional but you also seem so grounded and sure and happy (i hope) and both practical and positive in ways i don't always manage. i love all your reasons for the decisions you've made; they make total sense, and i'm not entirely convinced couples were meant to live together either (although i would much rather live with a man than another woman, fairly categorically)...sometimes i wonder about mr. gren moving into our basement apartment (we live in a duplex) so i could have the best of both.

no, that's not entirely true. maybe i'm too indoctrinated into nuclear-family-think, i don't know. i think basically i'm comfortable living with a man i'm involved with, although i avoided it for a long time. but there are always all these tensions (cf. committed thread) of unmet expectations, and maintaining your own space/life is one way of erasing that, for sure.

it's so hard to understand what a growing up experience is like or how to do it in the way that's best for your kids. the mr. and i were talking last night about his family - his parents were super attachment-parenting until his mom went to midwifery school when he was 5 and then he literally was in daycare or school 13 hours a day. i think that's terrible. and he has all this animosity toward his parents that we both think may have come from being so abruptly shifted from central to them (and they to him) to being practically a stranger.
i, on the other hand, had a very textbook 'normal' childhood (big house, stay-at-home -mom who constantly did art projects/read to us/let us play on our own in the huge yard with forts and castles, etc.; various food and holiday traditions and rituals, though also antimaterialistic and iconoclastic socially) and i loved it. my parents had a horrible divorce when i was adolescent, but before that i loved my childhood. they never even swore, they never got mad, they took us hiking, we made art and gingerbread houses. it felt so stable to me, and they were such PARENTS, and i felt so free. and i think i'm trying to recreate that for my son, though who knows if i can, or if it matters, or if it's what he needs. i probably sound like i want to become a stepford wife!
that sounds absolutely lovely. my mom stayed at home with us sort of too. she's a musician so she did that for work and it was kind of all over the place. there was a lot of pressure on me to help parent when i was a young teen and i ended up moving out when i was about 15. and my parent's split was so awful, i was three. and again when she got married to my sister and brother's dad (alcoholic asshole, totally abuse jerk) and they split, what a total mess.
maybe that's where i get the whole 'two adults can't live together' philosophy. i would live next door to a partner but i do want my own space, my own kitchen, my own bathroom, my own bedroom. i like some solitude and i really, really like not being so invested in what another person does and the stuff they have to work out. i leave that up to him, i stay in my own business and what I have to work out. it spreads it so thin, IMO, when two people get their issues so mixed up. it's like you have double the trouble instead of half the worry.
meh, some people manage to do it happily i'm sure. but mostly i see it being really tough, uneccessarily difficult when separate spaces can make such a huge difference. it's my attempt at keeping things as simple as possible. it works for me. and i think it's good for the kids too, they get to have time with a happy mom and a happy papa, no fighting, no major household stress. it's good.
That's interesting, all the different living/parenting situations. Moxieman and I lived together for 4 years before we married, and moxette was born 2 weeks before our 2nd wedding annivesary- so, we're pretty used to being with each other, space wise. Also, we were very young when we moved in together (22 and 23), so our adult "formative" years were spent figuring it out togehther. Not necessairly right for most people, but it worked for us. We find it absolutly critical to demand and accept the need to "alone" time, though-and that carries through to our parenting style, too. Like right now- i'm in the office, busting, the baby is sleeping, and moxieman is in the kitchen eating. Its a good morning.

pepper- does little have any visits with his bio dad? you seem so on top of everything- a really great example of successful single parenting. will the wee little have regular visits/schedule with the partner? That all seems so complicated and foreign to me, in nuclear family-ville...

That's interesting, all the different living/parenting situations. Moxieman and I lived together for 4 years before we married, and moxette was born 2 weeks before our 2nd wedding annivesary- so, we're pretty used to being with each other, space wise. Also, we were very young when we moved in together (22 and 23), so our adult "formative" years were spent figuring it out togehther. Not necessairly right for most people, but it worked for us. We find it absolutly critical to demand and accept the need to "alone" time, though-and that carries through to our parenting style, too. Like right now- i'm in the office, busting, the baby is sleeping, and moxieman is in the kitchen eating. Its a good morning.

pepper- does little have any visits with his bio dad? you seem so on top of everything- a really great example of successful single parenting. will the wee little have regular visits/schedule with the partner? That all seems so complicated and foreign to me, in nuclear family-ville...
pepper, i had valid reasons for vaccinating danny against the chickenpox, and it wasn't just "convenience". i keep my opinions about those who don't vaccinate to myself. i wish you'd do the same. i could do without your passive aggressive lectures.
my mom went away for a weekend when she had weaned each of us, but she probably should have had her own apartment - it would've been easier for her!

i think my parenting struggles have to do with having this very binary model of unconventional adult life/very conventional parenting. i'm trying to figure out how to be a more unconventional parent in my own way - the problem is that the things i valued so much as a child (stability, etc.) aren't really compatible with that. i have friends who have moved with their two babies from sf to greece to france to hawaii to nyc back to france in under a year, and while i admire them, i can't see myself being so mobile (as mobile as i used to be) in a way that's good for my kid.
flexibility and mobility are great things.. if you have kids that are able to go w/ the flow.
freck is not so much like that, which has been an issue for us in the last few years once she reached school age & out of the neighborhood park-to - meet- kids & make friends instantly.
now, even though WE are staying put, most of her closest 3 or 4 girlfriends are all moving away between Christmas and summer and essentially, she still has to start all over. cruel irony there I'll tell ya.

pepper: you are cool in a way I don't know if we can continue to chat in here, bc I am definately NOT COOL but do admire you so. and yes, men and women in different spaces, sometimes, I totally agree.
I think part of the reason the mr & I have co-habitated so well the last 14 years has been due to his frequent absenses. seriously. I am one who needs vast & frequent Personal Space. each time he returns I have to give some of that up and it's an adjustment, albeit mostly a good one for the energy he brings.
it seems you have such a wonderful & well thought out Plan for the birth and your little.
he/they are so terribly lucky to have such a loving and Focused Mama such as yourself and I wish nothing but love and joy at the upcoming arrival. how close are you getting now?

== ok== mama delima==

the mr has a work-related promotion party friday afternoon at a lodge, to which apparently the spouses have been requested at as well. freck doesn't get home til 4 and the party starts an hour before that, and should be over probably 2 of so from when she gets home. do I let her stay home by herself?
I don't trust her w/ a housekey yet, but I am thinking of asking our close neighbor to watch for her, let her in the house, stay w/ her til the dog is out & back in & the shades are drawn & the house is locked up tight again. (maybe 15 minutes of her time assuming she could) and from there I would just call her every so often til we got home.


probably we will do this bc freck probably won't be home & in the Dark for more than an hour, maybe .5, but it's the housekey that presents the problem if the neighbor is unavailable to help.
do we hide it out back? the lock sticks so she may not be able to get it undone either.

Freck, I think your solution is great - it gives the 'Lette some space & "grown up" time, but with the reassurance that someone is very close by if the need arises. I was a latchkey kid from about 11 on, and the time by myself in the house went a long way to developing my independence & ability to deal with things on my own. As much as it chapped me when I was her age, maybe give her a tiny list of things to do around the house while you're away - having a purpose might help if she gets a bit squicked out being alone. That said, don't be surprised if none of it gets done... dry.gif

:relurks, waving Jedi mind trick: This isn't the Bustie you're looking for...
the bean is not so much into going with the flow. he LOVES his house. when we took him to a wedding a few hours away last summer, he was freaking out for weeks afterwards. he actually kissed the floor when we got home.

freckle, could freck bring a friend home? the neighbour plan sounds good, but if she had a friend there she might have more impetus to feel safe/take ownership of the situation (that's if a friend's parent would let them be alone in the house). my parents left me alone when i was eight, but i suspect they're not the norm.

out of curiosity - you couldn't just give her a housekey for the day?

my stepsister is married to a navy man and is miserable, mostly because her kids run her ragged. in a lot of ways she's a single mom - i'm glad the lifestyle works for you.
mando, that wasn't a personal attack so don't take it personally k? i don't have a problem with parents who vaccinate, i think it's a REALLY tough decision, maybe one of the hardest. i have a problem with the medical establishment, the research, the scientist who work hard trying to find ways to exploit fear in order to make more and more money for big pharma. some of the drugs and shots that are out there are such blatant money grabs it's sickening. while the pox shots may very well be neccessary for some, the way it gets pushed in the mainstream as though it's neccessary for everyone pisses me off no end. it's like the flu shot, i haven't ever and i won't ever but man, the pressure to do it is HUGE. i don't get mad at YOU if you do though, don't read into it what isn't there.

moxie, if his dad was the least bit interested we never would have moved so far away (3000 miles) but he just doesn't have any interest at all in little. his loss. i send pics and mail to keep the connection alive but we never, ever hear from him. i make sure little has great male role models in his life on a regular basis. my male friend has two kids just older than my boy and he hangs out at their house with them tons.
as for this wee babe, papa can come over as much as he wants, just like now. he can have a key, he can get calls here, he can stay over. as much as he wants. so long as he has his own place to go to and store his crap at. i like him, he's usually really fun and helpful. well, more fun than helpful actually but that counts too!

freckle, thanks for the compliments and also pshaw! you are one of the coolest chicks here lady. i read alla your posts i come across and i dig your sunny disposition and love of life. yer da bomb mama.
i can see how your living sit would be good. lots of space and time to work up some missing for the mister.
as for yoru dilemna, i say practice with her with the key until your both satisfied that she can do it no prob, set out an activity for her to do or homework and a snack and you'll be able to see that she was actually there doing stuff while you weren't. a key on a string necklace for the one day isn't so bad, is it?
pepper, i apologize for overreacting. i've just been around and around this whole topic so many other times before, in the other mama thread, before your time. i was probably projecting other posters' rabid opinions onto you.

i do wish you'd realize how judgemental and dismissive your tone can be, though. case in point: don't read into it what isn't there. that's enough to bake my beans right there.

sorry for the derailment, everyone. best i shut up now.
hey, newbie mama question here. once your kidlets showed the signs of hardcore teething (the spiking, low-grade fever, drrol like a MFer, knashing, etc...) how long before the teeth came in? poor moxette...the doc saw her on MOnday, and is pretty sure this is teething...but she's so uncomfortable. I want to make it go away. Gulp. Any memories? i didn't feel any new ridgers today that weren't there a week ago. do the teeth just pop out? Gah... i'm gonna double post this in the hip mama thread, too.
mox, the first teeth took us (these aren't the first teeth for you, are they??) two months of intense drooling to come in. luckily he was pretty good-natured about it.
oh yes, these are the first. She's been teething on and off for 2 months now. I'm really hoping this latest bout is it. So, at least, I have something to judge against, no?

She's also on the verge of some serious developmental milestones- crusing, walking,, she gets the grunting frustration pretty darned easy, too. That, i find amusing. Then, I cave and help her out.

Pepper- the vaccination thing- i hadn't even ever given them a second thought until mid-pregnancy, when I think i read some of your postings. You made me really research them out, which I appreciate very much. Thanks!

Frek- why don't you trust the gal with a key? I think I got a key for odd occasions right around 11. Short of that, the neighbor is a great idea. You could ask her to call you as soon as she gets in...put your cell on vibrate or something so you don't disturb everyone at the shin-dig. Is the Mr. the one getting a promotion? to what?!? He's my favorite miliraty guy, because he's a bustie-in-law. smile.gif
i listen to a lot of the "this american life" archives at work and coincidentally i listened to this show (i enjoy being a girl, sort of) today....the last part of it is a woman describing being part of a polygamous marriage, and it's fascinating. i think her situation is one of very few exceptions, but she calls it "the ultimate feminist lifestyle" and it sounds a lot like what's being talked about here. each woman has her own house, all close by each other, and the man is only allowed to visit on his terms. the women help each other out--the one who was considered the best "mother" was paid by the others to quit her job for a few years to raise their children--and have this close community, and sort of "veto" anything the man says that any of them don't's really interesting, and highly recommended listening.

I don't know if you've tried these or not yet, but these were a god-send to us when frecklette cut teeth at 5 months.. when I was still nursing!
I know we've already had this discussion before awhile ago, so I won't go on more about it, but it's a tough time to be sure and I hope moxette comes through the rest of this quickly & painlessly.
that age, the cruising and walking/talking time..... the Memories! <le sigh>

our situation for friday has been resolved. she is riding home and staying overnight w/ a girlfriend (her new "best friend" who is moving at Xmas) bc the neighbor is going to be out of town. the girl's mom was totally cool about it (also military) & happy to do us the favor. that, and at this age, the girl's will likely totally entertain each other completely and only come downstairs to scavenge for food. tongue.gif
I don't trust frecklette w/ a key yet bc she loses EVERYTHING.
gosh bless her and she really is trying to be more focused on things lately, but a housekey?
not something I want floating around free in our neighborhood.

friday's party isn't for my mr, it's for one of his co workers, but the mr did get promoted last week.. or sort of, lol. he made the Promotion List, which means that he is now Officially Eligible for the next rank, but now has to wait for his # (place of order or ranking) to come up. as he is pretty low ( top 100 out of 2500) on a long list this year, maybe in the next 6 months? I'm sorry if that's confusing, but that's the Army. it's crazily competative and finally he's at a stage where he can now Really relax. that he made the list as early & quick as he did (you have to spend x_ amount of years at each rank before you become eligible for the next one) was a huge deal and I am tremendously Proud of him. he will be/is a Master Sgt (E8) now. the bummer part of having to wait to get "pinned" (where they actually literally PIN your new rank on your uniform- and in this case, I think the guy's Wife will get to do it & they ususally make a speach or give her a gift as well for all her support) is that you don't see any money/raise til that time.
and in OUr case, that's my future new car hanging in the balance! the mr gets Promoted.. I get a new car.. works for me! thanks for thinking of him in that way, it's too cute. biggrin.gif


interesting idea there.. am going to check out that article link in a minute.. I like the idea of a 'community of women' except that as a rule I don't much get along w/ them for the most part and prefer men to women.. so maybe the same concept in the reverse? (except that the more I think of that... who really needs multiple men for anything? I mean, you get 1 that is mechancially handy, 1 that likes to do yardwork/isn't afraid of spiders and 1 that looks good in a pair of briefs and.. I think I will shush now bc I am going Wildly O/T !)
i had forgotten the hylands tablets! we have some, but she doesn't seem to dig them much. maybe another shot tonight will work. it seems the only thing that works for her is the motrin...i hate drugging her, but i hate her being miserable more.
QUOTE(freckleface2727 @ Nov 30 2006, 08:09 AM) *

I mean, you get 1 that is mechancially handy, 1 that likes to do yardwork/isn't afraid of spiders and 1 that looks good in a pair of briefs and.. I think I will shush now bc I am going Wildly O/T !)

not at all...well, in a way you have that, pepper, doncha? tongue.gif
actually, i'm a bad person, but i've occasionally threatened my husband with that when he's being grumpy/a slob...i start getting ideas about finding a multilingual career success story to add to my man collection, and maybe also a handsome asian dude. but mr gren gets the "looks good in briefs" prize (insofar as anyone looks good in briefs; i am more of a boxers gal).

mouse, hmm...there is something about polygamy that wildly sticks in my craw as anti-feminist, but maybe i'll check it out...i did enjoy last nights TAL about the brother and sister who made up a family to babysit for so their overprotective mom would let them out of the house.

oh, and mox - i dunno if you tried this already, but freezing a wet washcloth is genius for some - they can chew/suck on it.
QUOTE(grenadine @ Nov 30 2006, 10:12 AM) *

there is something about polygamy that wildly sticks in my craw as anti-feminist

oh, absolutely, me too, that's why it was so interesting--and because this thread has been talking about the advantages of not necessarily living with one's partner...having one's own space, and letting one's partner come and go but not stay.

i love TAL. it constantly reminds me how awesome humans are when they aren't lumped in a category with other humans and just taken by themselves. does anyone know what i mean? rolleyes.gif
yes, absolutely i know what you mean. although it also reminds me of how lame/dumb/sad humans are, too (which can be a good thing).
small mama boast:

frecklette had to write an Editorial for her Reading class either in Support of Zoo's or Against them, and she, my wee jr activist, wrote Against them, even tying in her experience growing up and wanting, but not being allowed to go, to Circus's and only Now starting to understand why. I did explain to her not to complicate the issue by confusing Zoo's (which I marginally favor when they meet the criteria of A) Indigineous Animals to the region B ) Actual REAL Space and habitat and C) continous financial funding to sustain those, something most publicly funded zoo's cannot manage.) with the Circus, but she tied both her "platforms" in beautifully together w/ a lovely summary paragraph.

I am so proud of her, bc it's not just that she really focused on what the assignment was ( progress from her hastily thrown together normal work) but that she put thought and Heart into it.
and I even asked her ' are you sure that this is how YOU really feel? or is it just that you know it's what you know I am like?' and she defended her stance even more bc SHE doesn't like Zoo's at all!

I don't even think I really care what grade she gets on it (ok not true bc she still has a long way to go to get it up to acceptable) I just appreciate her thoughtful intent to educate others and hope she gets to read it outloud to the class. something I strongly suspect she might be asked to bc she told her teacher that she had never been to a circus before and why and her teacher said ' then I bet you have a lot to say on this subject, lol.' my Kid! smile.gif

now as to a polyandrous situation... when I was in my late teen's/early 20's, it was my aspriation to not marry (nor have kids- ever) but to instead have a series of lovers at my leisure and will. and indeed, I did picture having several men on call at any given time for whatever.
it was a beautiful dream.

what is TAL ?
TAL is This American Life, a radio show on NPR. they just have stories about different themes and they talk to different people--just normal people who have experiences to talk about--and it's really interesting. they have all of the episodes archived as podcasts online, and i listen to it a lot at work. david sedaris writes a lot for them, for example.

and that's AWESOME about frecklette really getting into her work smile.gif

"it was my aspriation to ... have a series of lovers at my leisure and will. and indeed, I did picture having several men on call at any given time for whatever."

ahem, i did it. it was an Enormous task to keep them all straight (who said what, liked what, did what last) and juggle the timing. i hardly had time for anything other than scheduling and dates!

do you feel like killing me for daring to complain about that? you do, don't you.

on another note, got the first report card and parent/teacher meeting today. she has the same problems with him at school that i do at home. goofing off when it's time to do something, interupting, whining, saying that he can't instead of trying. meh. it could be So Much Worse. i'm pretty happy overall.
i don't envy that...i have never had time in my life for more than one man. actually, for about seven years i kept it exclusively long-distance so the boyfriend du jour (or de l'année, really) would take up even less of my time. but that's just me. i like men, have tons of male friends, but don't want to spend too much of my valuable creative energy on 'em. being intimate is so *inefficient*!

but if you liked it, more power to you. and if you always wanted to but never got a chance...there's always old age!

freck, hurrah for frecklette!
well, it was only three boys. no, wait, four. and it wasn't really all that fun. i burned right out in about three months. but i'm glad i did it, it had it's moments wink.gif
truthfully I had never honestly considered the logistics of what that may have involved.. wow, how exhausting! as it was in the 4 short months between moving to the state where I met the mr, and meeting/ comitting, I dated 11 guys, w/ 1 on a string back at Perdue in Indiana. that alone was tough enough. however, though I still lived at home (paying rent, all that of course) I totally was living on my own terms, working nonstop and doing/seeing only who I wanted to see,and generally dumping them when they got <yawn>boring. I think the difference was that I didn't sleep w/ any of them due to that. maybe that was enough of a heyday? wink.gif

great news on little's First Report Card! no suprises is a wonderful thing bc it means nothing has gotten worse. (that's a 'glass 1/2 full' if ever!) Rock On Little!!

ok, frecklette's staying over w. her gf tonight & I, when here she is 12, am having seperation anxiety.
self-pity thy name is freckleface. sad.gif

moxie- how is the wee moxette?
frek- that's kinda cool you're having seperation anxiety. Well, not really, but you know what i meant. I actually had a twinge of it last night- i really wanted to get moxette out of her crib and bring her into bed with us- for no real intelligible reason. I resisited.

She's doing OK- not great, not poorly. Her rash seems to be subsiding, but the drool and low-fever aren't going anywhere. I'm hoping the fuckers pop out soon. I want my bebe doing good. She was damed excited to play last night, though- so that was a good thing. I'm hoping we make it through the weekend without incident.

You guys are all such a great support. Thank you.

moxie, i have that feeling all the time! for one thing, i'm a terrible worrier, so sometimes i wish i could just bring the bean in bed with us. i always resist and instead wear a path in the floor between his bed and ours, checking on him.

hope moxette is better soon.

we're double-dating tonight with a friend of mine who once suggested open marriage was the way to go. maybe we'll all start a commune and raise our babies in it.
yay! that sounds faboo, i know i could use the help of another mama! i offered to find the mister another "wife" one time to split up fun and chores (we were living in a huge house far out of town that was exhausting to clean, i was doing online courses and we had no car). i was serious too, but i think he was intimidated. ha ha.

freckle, i get separation anxiety too. if it were up to me i'd stay with or very close to him all the time. i love that little bugger like nothing else. he likes school and loves to play with other kids though so that makes me feel better. i like that he's so social and easy to get along with. i just don't like to let him go to far away from home. that may be car related, since i don't drive i can't always get to him quick.

he's been saying that he doesn't want to sleep in his room lately so i've been letting him sleep with me. this is one of the few areas of parenting in which i'm not completely resolved that i'm doing the best thing for him. i mean, i wonder how it can be harmful to him to let him sleep in my bed, is it just a knee jerk reaction like seeing an older child nursing and thinking that it's wrong with no foundation for that thought? i mean, he's still a baby is so many ways. can't tie his shoes, needs help brushing his teeth, washing his hair in the tub, etc etc. he's still little. i figure that if i were to stick with truly natural parenting i'd let him guide this. he'll reach an age where he wants anonymity, no more hugs and kisses, no more sitting in my lap for stories, no more sleeping in my bed.
hmm, i'm still not resolved. i need to think on this one some more. though when the baby comes she or he will be sleeping with me all the time, i'm hardly going to tell him that he can't at that time. i would never do that.
gah, *tugging hair out slightly*.

moxie, teething is worse for the parents than it is for the babies. you will feel the stress, worry and sleeplessness of this Far after it's completely forgotten by her. try not to carry that around with you all the time, i Know it's so hard. be a comfort to her when she is fussy and in pain and when she isn't, ForGet About It because i can promise you that it's the last thing on her mind. take that time and enjoy it as much as you can.
also, i think babies cry like little demons when they are upset or in pain because they have no other way to express themselves and also no context to put any of that in. it may seem so much more dreadful than it is simply because of that. they put no limit on their expression of frustration or discomfort because they have no measure so crying over having to burp may be as horrible sounding as crying over being really, really hurting. try not to let it traumatize you too much, just comfort comfort comfort and be as calm and anti-stressed energetically as you can.
take heart, this doesn't last very long. ride it out as best you can. and save a copy of this for when i'm freaking out myself next year. thnx.
you don't know the sex of the baby yet?
(pretty sure that you don't or at least never mentioned it here)


that is something I know I am greatly in the minority on, but I never wanted to know w/ frecklette either.
I feel like that is one of the few ~Great Mysteries of Life~ and should be known only to the baby and by God, and then we find out in due time.
a lot of people gave me crap for that too, bc yes it IS more Practical to know ahead of time, then you can plan plan plan and all that and that makes perfect sense it's true, but it just wasn't the way for me.
the mr felt much the same way. and honestly, though I spent 40.5 weeks of her incubation thinking she was a Boy, when they said ' It's a GIRL!' I wasn't the slightest bit suprised. we did get 1 done, at 30 weeks maybe, but it was very quick and standard and they didn't offer to tell us nor did we ask. the whole thing took less than 5 minutes.

.. I think what also maybe pushed me to feel so strongly at the time too, was that in Panama, there were Ultra Sound shops all over the city, where you could get one done for literally about $20** and most of the other pregnant military wives went weekly to do them; the thing is, the reason they were so prolific was bc they were used for GENDER SELECTION, which completely and utterly horrified me but I could never make the other wives understand what was so Wrong w/ that.
makes me sick to this day to even remember back.

please know, I'm not totally anti-abortion, but Gender Selection? where they are literally de-valuing girls lives as less -so than for boys? you bet your bippe I have some problems with that!

== hopping of my soap box w/ apologies==

as to your little and sleeping in the bed w/ you.
- what about letting him sleep on a palet on the floor in your room?
frecklette slept in our bed til right about the time she weaned, and then it was better for her not to be w/ us to define that time as Over, but she was nearly 3 when she made that transition.
and then off and on she'd still occassionally end up w/ us, til she got about 6 or 7.

your little will reach the time of Not wanting to be close to you like that w/in the next 4-6 years, tho some kids hang on longer. now it's only every super great once in awhile that freck asks to, and then it's on the flip out loveseat bed. and when she does ask, there's usually a really good Reason for it, be it bad dreams, scary book, just needs to be closer to us, so when she asks, we always say Yes.

maybe just more to help you think on things with?

I must now go try on virtually 3/4th's of the content of my closet to "discover" what doesn't look hideous enough to wear to the party and frecklette isn't home to help me this time.
sadly, my dog doesn't seem interested in helping either.

KID already. sad.gif
i don't know the sex, i don't visit the doctor when i'm pregnant unless i actually get sick and even then, i don't let them talk to me about the pregnancy. they are so full of fear and crap, ptooie on them. me no like.

gender selection is SCARY. it's funny, you'd think panama would be a fairly religious place. what do they think 'God' thinks of that whole practice? or maybe god hates females too. blah.

i have a queen sized bed in my little room, it seems kinda funny to make him sleep on something else when there is so much space in the bed. i was thinking about getting a bigger mattress though because the four of us in a queen will be a wee bit squished. a new bed, le sigh. seems like i just got This bed! oh well, i get to go sheet shopping. that can be fun.
the alternative is one of those side bed thingies for the baby. i kinda like them, they are right there next to you but in their own little space. ha ha, come to think of it, it would probably get used as an end table and wee one right in bed with us anyhow. n/m. a bigger bed it is...
we didn't want to know the sex either, but then our midwife so obviously knew that i could tell and just told them to tell us. however, we stubbornly maintained claims of ignorance until the bean appeared. everyone was convinced it would be a girl.

gender selection is abominable. people considering it should be transported back to the womb and de-selected themselves.

freck, have you emerged victorious from a pile of clothes?

i cannot figure out what is up with the bean's naps. i thought he was giving up the morning, but he's been sacked out for 1.5 hours now. during which time i have accomplished absolutely nothing. i've been up since three, though, so i have given myself permission to be brain-dead today.

pepper, i don't think there's any problem with letting little sleep with you as long as you're comfortable with that. probably he'll go back to his own room too - it may be related to the pregnancy (uncertainty, excitement, wanting to be closer to you/the baby) that's making him want to, anyhow!


I find it shocking how many parents don't let the sex of their baby be a surprise. Le Boy's brother & SIL were adamantly against it, also some of the few people I know who didn't tell a soul what names they had picked. They said all of their friends found out the sex as soon as technologically possible and told everyone the name they picked based on that.

Many of my friends who have had kids found out, though. One set of friends, however only did it with their second pregnancy. They had no problem getting pregnant the first time, then spent 2 years trying to conceive again naturally. Then another 8 months or so on IVF. Turns out they were having twins. Once that came to light, they said "that's enough of a surprise [not that they didn't know it was highly possible with IVF]- we're going to find out what's in there, exactly" and they had two more little girls.

As someone who thinks finding out the sex pre-birth is to technologically involved, yeah, gender selection is ridiculous.

i was convinced girl last time, mostly because that's what i thought i wanted. but i never looked at any girl names at all, ha ha. when little came i lifted him up out of the tub water and checked out his wee little face (so precious!) then his feet (they were enormous! that's the first thing i said actually) and then i checked out his stuff and made the announcement. knowing the sex is like sneaking a peak at the xmas gifts, i never liked to spoil a surprise not even as a little kid. and how, exactly, do you name a person who you have never met? i had a list of names/sounds i liked but his actually name i made up a day or so after he came.
this time i think girl, that's what little says too, but i would be happy either way. now that i have a son i realize how much i love it. i do have a name picked out that i like but this little one will let me know if it suits when she or he makes an appearance. i can't decide until then.

i had this idea not to tell anyone the sex of the baby until he was, like, three or so. i was going to try keeping it a secret for as long as possible to prevent any gender-biased treatment. but when he got a bit bigger he was just naturally all boy, he really was. an eye opening lesson in nature vs nuture.
pepper, i had that idea too about not telling the gender...i think fundamentally i wasn't willing to deal with pronouns. plus most of the people he sees end up helping change him or watching as he dances around the living room naked.

i loved sonograms. mostly because i couldn't believe it was actually happening and wanted to check on what was really going on. i thought it was so cool when i had a sonogram and could see his hair! but then, i'm the kind of person who likes to know the ending of books and movies and always peeked at presents (it doesn't spoil it for me), so there you go.

i'm undecided on whether or not i want to know the sex ahead of time. in my mind, it's a surprise regardless of when i find out. but then i also love the idea of waiting until this little peanut is with us to really meet him or her and find out then. i mean, the bean really has no idea what *i* am either... so... hehehe

Mamas, help! The eye-rolling, the patronizing tone, the know-it-all smirk--how do I deal without smacking the child into next week?! Tot2 has become a teenager at the age of 6 1/2!

(Hi, by the way! I'm just back from 2 months in Suriname, and we're all adjusting to my return--tot2's strategy seems to be acting like a total asshole, apparently).
you put the child in a room and tell him/her "Mommy is very angry right now- and if I don't leave, I will hurt you." That works wonders for a cooling down period on both sides in the BFF household. Her kid is super-tweeny all of a sudden.

We found out moxette's sex ahead of time. Moxierman wanted to know- I was ambivilant. We were doing an US at 16 weeks to determine placenta previa, and she, well, just presented. No mistaking it. A willful girl, even in utero. hehe. As to names, we had hers and 3 others floating around in our heads, but she didn't get a name until she came out. I kinda think its creepy to name a baby definitely before its out.

Pepper- if little needs you, he needs you. Unless you see some evidence of sleeping in bed with you harming him, or hampering him, what's the harm? If moxette could do it, we'd have her in bed with us more often. She's just really more comfortable in her crib, so there she sleeps. When I was 6 or 7, my parents finally put the pallaet down- i think i must have been abusing the privledge. That worked really well. Comforting, but not too comfortable.
farmgirl! welcome back!

i second blanche. if it were me, i'd be angry at you for having left (or maybe at myself for not understanding/surviving anyway - feelings of disloyalty around being without your mom are easy to have). 6 is pretty young to be without you for two months - i'd pour on the love, personally. i don't think a six-year-old can be defiant/mocking in the same way a teenager is - they just ape that behaviour because they see it irks you. (eta: what better way to get the lion's share of mama's attention now that she's finally back?)

how's the rest of the family?

we just (finally) got a rug for the bean's room and he reverted to crawling around on it - which is funny because in our old house (he was 10 mo. when we left) we had carpeting. i think he was transported to the past, like with proust's madeleine...
You all are right--I am certain her behavior is related to my departure and return. It's still no fun to deal with.

blanche, The strategy you use works well with tot1, but tot2? Not so much. She's a whole different breed. I did talk with her yesterday, though, at a time when we were both calm, and she "gets it," but when she's in a mood, all "reason" goes out the window. ::le sigh::

moxie, Yeah, I'm very fond of "positive time outs," where we each go to our corners to chill. I just wish I could keep ::myself:: from getting irked. I know what's up, and I know I'm the grown up, but she still manages to get under my skin.

grenadine, Everyone else is dealing in their own way. Tot3 is VERY clingy, and by all accounts had the hardest time while I was gone. Tot1 just wants to hug me once an hour or so.

That's funny about the rug!
welcome back farmgirl!!!!!!!!!
how was suriname and please tell us as much about it as you can?

girl child wants to go to a school Dance next week, her First.
a big bunch of her friends want to go (all dependant on each other going of course) and now she's asking to go too. her dad and I decided that if she takes several AR (required independant reading program) tests and catches up, she can go.

her First Dance.


I expect it'll be much worse when there is an actual BOY involved in all this, but this is tough enough.
what's worse is the plan to find a dress, bc she wants 1 or 2 of her girlfriends to go w/ us, and she is larger than they are, and infinitely more developed than they, so we'll likely have to look in the women's section, which I'm afraid is going to be akward or embarrassing for her.
that aside, she's going to be so lovely all dressed up, maybe even in her first pair of heels.

not sure I am ready for this at all sad.gif
WOW. Her first dance! If she goes, you;ll have to get us pics...through PM if that's cool. My kid is out there for the whole world to see anyway. So have at it, honorary aunties!

We had a big developmental thing today...she stood up in the crib all by herself! The first of many exciting, but terrifying, things, I'm sure.

Ok, time to go snuggle up with the kittie and a good book.
ok mox,
I gotta tell you - that is a seriously addictively CUTE Baby you have!!!!!!

oh my gosh I couldn't stop looking at all her pictures! (but in a nice way, not in a creepy, stalkerish way, dig? tongue.gif )

really, SHE (unlike all the other kids I've seen/held/observed to sort of "test myself" in terms of being past the reproduction stage) could make me want to have another baby... all the sweet snuggles and baths and yummy-smelling baby-ness of her w/ the dippity-do hair and the tummy giggles and constant amazement as she discovers her world... and Yah for Moxette for standing up in her crib on her own. what a Big Girl!
today her Crib.... tomorrow The' WORLD !!

now I am sad that we are an internet-thing here bc that is one dollie I would totally volunteer to babysit, and if you knew how anti-child I am, you'd know how signifigant a statement that is.
if you're ever on the east coast though and need a sitter... Auntie Freckle & Cousin Frecklette are your service smile.gif

and yah, assuming all the parts come together for frecklette to go to the dance ( we were already going through my old skinny-person dressy dresses this afternoon) I will totally take pictures for y'all.
that she of the Plain T-shirts, Plain jeans and Sneakers EVERY-SINGLE-DAY wants to go to this, knowing what all it involves, might just mean (depending on how it goes) the tide is turning towards her realising that it's o k to be a girl. I asked her about b o y s and she said pretty much No Way and also said she didn't plan on even dancing bc the last time she danced in her gf's living room at the sleepover she tripped on her own feet and nearly fell biggrin.gif . but that's Ok bc as long as she has *fun.* isn't that what these early years are all about? finding an "identity" in the saftey of a group for functions like this ?
that there are so many girls this time is new though.. bc ususally she hangs w/ just 1 or 2 girls but that's ok too bc w/ so many of her closest friends moving or already gone, she's had/having to branch out and this makes me really proud of her for the effort. she's growing up and trying to figure so much stuff out right now... makes me yearn for her Littler years when her world was small and I could Always keep her safe.

think I'm going to sneak into her room and tuck her in, even though she's already asleep for the night.

mando- is D still cool w/ the myspace stuff?
frek, what a totally sweet thing to say! She's in a rather obstinate phase right now, so the pictures don't tell the whole story. I'm rather looking forward to moving past the wakings at the top of sleep cycles due to development stuff.

Then again, she snuggles like a it ain't all bad. smile.gif
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