Nov 16 2006, 02:29 PM
freck, i skipped half of fifth grade because i couldn't deal with it socially. not that i didn't have friends - just that i didn't *like* the way the other burgeoning adolescents were starting to act. i needed to retreat into myself to stay sane! so maybe frecklette is going through something similar too...
i try to believe that my permanent records have been destroyed (although i can't stop hearing gordan gano's voice when you say those words).
Nov 16 2006, 02:38 PM
LOL on the Gordon Gano reference, Grenadine!
I think social issues had a lot to do with it- I was at the bottom of the social ladder from about 4th grade on. I had a best friend there with me at least, from second grade on. My anxiety issues with school, I think started in kindergarten and I think I posted about my wretched kindergarten teacher here a few weeks ago, right? Nasty woman.
Nov 16 2006, 04:46 PM
did i happen to mention that i'm impressed?
social stuff is hard. i never quite fit in for a variety of out-of-my-hands reasons and some i could have (maybe) controlled, so even though i managed to remain on the fringes of the popular group (mostly due to history, i think) i just didn't want to be around those people.
and losing a friend can be something that takes a long time to work out from under.
Nov 17 2006, 11:03 AM
blanche, i try to start those conversations with my almost 6 year old by saying "i love you sweety" first every time and then addressing the behavior almost as though it is a thing separate from himself. we talk about the way he acts pretty analytically, detached almost. guess i'm trying to foster the sense that behavior is a choice that he is in control of and that the trick is Choosing the best way to act.
do you have any books on natural consequences? i find those really helpful in detatching emotionally from behavior and addressing it that way. How to talk so your kids will listen and listen so your kids will talk is a Really great book that my mom read when we were little. it still applies, it's terrific. also the book Loving What Is by byron katie. it's not about parenting, just about life and it's the best book i've ever read.
considering what he sees when he's with his bio-mom it's no wonder that he's acting some of that out. talking to a counsellor at school is probably a Great idea for him. kids have so little in terms of internal resources to deal with that kind of stuff. it's a total mystery to them and they can develop their own very strange theories about the what and why of it all.
good luck. remember too that if he was at a waldorf or other alternative school they might have a totally different take on his behavior. all kids are different, mine doesn't always fit the mold at school but i don't stress about it because i hardly ever fit the mold myself!
Nov 17 2006, 11:24 AM
((blanche)) and ((freck))
on the topic of books, i just read a great book called "parenting effectiveness training" by thomas gordon. it's a little dated (originally published 1970!), but i thought it had some great ideas about dealing with conflict (which are already working with my 15 month old in terms of active listening - when he's flinging clothes out of a drawer or yelling because he's not allowed to break the lamps, it seems to work a lot better to "translate" his frustration than to just deter him). but it has the great central idea that you can't control who your kids are, but can respect their needs and have them respect yours (in conflict). i'd recommend it for anyone as a communication primer.
Nov 17 2006, 12:02 PM
blanche- seeing the counselor, assuming the counselor is any good, is probably a great thing for him. It sounds like he has a lot of control (lack thereof) issues b/c of the donor, and he chooses to act them out at school. Gah, it all sounds SO familiar. (((miniblanche)))
Nov 17 2006, 04:13 PM
spoke to the family therapist today.
freck has an appt to speak to her tues at 2:30.
we spoke for quite a time on the phone and I told her all that had been going on, w/ the history of testing last year and the Ped's Diagnosis of low-level of Add/Adhd and then her teacher suspecting that she might be Depressed, and she said that w/ all the other things I had described it might actually be the adhd coming thru bc in girls it's different than the hyperness you normally assimilate it to be bc she is really genuinely Trying and just cannot stay focused, so gets even more frustrated and moody due to it.
made a Lot of sense when put in that perspective. it also had never occured to me that her adhd could Worsen.
this dr gives off such a good energy vibe.. I am really feeling good about freck spending time w/ her.
am going to collect everything I can from both her ped's and the school as far as what was used to evaulate her too, justso the dr can see the full and total picture.
blanche, wow. that is so tough!
ususally it's the other way around, having a bright kid who is generally well behaved but not focused when it comes to academics. I get about the 'staying in there here & now' and what you are doing to try o improve that.
all of the books the other mama's recommended sound like good resources ( that I may check out too as I see some similarities) and I hope they and the social worker can find some good solutions for you.
I wish I had ideas for you, but you know I am ever hopeful for you.
Nov 21 2006, 06:20 PM
the appt w/ the family therapist was outstanding.
the woman was every bit as nice as I had anticipated, and then some.
however, it is looking like quite a bit of the issues have to do w/ frecklette being uber strong-willed rather than a lack of focus. focus does play into it in terms of math (bc she doesn't like it, struggles w/ it and bores & gets frustrates w/ it) and organization but she gave us several ideas to try in school and around the home to form better, more effecient routines. she also gave me a book on Raising a Strong Willed Child (not the exact name) for me & the mr to read. she also wants to look at freck's IQ test scores bc I suspect she might be thinking freck is indeed bored in her classes and not challenged at all (her vocab is pretty intense) but she will be suprised to learn that she scored average and even a little low in some areas, but I don't know if there are various tests or just One? anyway, she wants us to implement some of the suggestions she gave us and meet back in a few weeks.
a lot of what she said was directed at freck in terms of ' you are the kid and like it or not, your Parents still have the last and final word so the best you can do is accept that and find a way to make it work for you bc the outcome will still be the same only you're making yourself unhappier by the additional consequences you are Chosing.'
I think the fact that freck has shown now that she is More than capable of getting high grades but so often just doesn't turn in work, that is tilting the scale towards the strong willed-ness.
it's good news I guess, but frustrating in different ways.
what is everyone doing for Thanksgiving?
my parents are coming down to stay a few days, and we are going to eat at the base Dining Facility (bc the food is OutStanding & yes- even gourmet) but I am making a small turkey & the works anyway, so we can still have leftovers. my dad's b-day is weds so I also bought him a cake & we're celebrating both our b-days at while they are here.
this is the first year I haven't gone all crazi & fed the masses, but this year I am just tired and want a quiet holiday w/ those I love most in the world around me.
blessings for what we have bc we have much to be thankful for ~
Nov 21 2006, 11:00 PM
i'm glad you get to see your parents, freckle. good luck with frecklette!
we are going to my parents' here in town. then maybe the beach, or maybe not depending on our moods.
i just posted this in what the !@^**!, but i'm amazed at how many people, even moms, still think that breastfeeding is "dirty" or "weird" or that breastfeeding a 22-month-old (in ref. to emily gillette, who got kicked off a delta flight while breastfeeding) is somehow "perverted." i guess i shouldn't be surprised, because of all the kids at his daycare my son is the only one still BFing (he is 15 months), but i was somehow thinking that people were more enlightened. bleh.
Nov 22 2006, 07:02 AM
gren- this is so much more appropriate for the Hip mama thread, but I'll ask here anyway. OUt of pure curiosity and NO judgement at all (cause, hell, I couldn't even BF for more than 1 day...so, who am I, right?), when do you think you'll wean the bean? My BFF has a 10 month old who is down to the 1 night feeding, but the kidlet is holding STRONG onto that one. Mom sees no reason not to let the kidlet direct things for now, which seems absolutly reasonable to me. My SIL is thinking about starting to supplement daytime feedings with formula (nephew is 6 mos old next week), as he gets more used to solids. Also seems totally reasonable to me. You're an "older" mom, so if you've got any good wisdom I can pass along, I'm sure they'd appreciate it.
That's funny (in the bad way) about the "dirty/perverted" thing, b/c I get nasty looks all the time when I pull out the bottle for moxette. Well, not so much now, at 8 mos...but when she was wee, good-god. I think women just like to judge other women.
OK, so I got in here to wish everyone a Happy, Healthy and FILLING Thanksgiving. MWAH!
Nov 22 2006, 08:35 AM
aw, mini. i know it must be frustrating, blanche, but he sounds so charming to me!
mox, by "older" mom you DO mean "mom of an older baby," do you not? i was born under the sign of jimmy carter, after all...i've still got a few years before i even start getting told i have to get an amnio...*runs to bathroom to check grey hairs*
however. ahem. i'll answer this question both personally and generally, not because my great age gives me wisdom but because my compulsive and overdeveloped research skills do (hopefully). as you may know, the world health org. recommends breastfeeding until at least two years of age. there is a general consensus that the benefits of breastfeeding (fewer childhood illnesses, ear infections, etc.) increase the longer breastfeeding continues and that the immune benefits actually seem to concentrate as feedings grow fewer and farther between. the average age for ending breastfeeding globally is somewhere around 4-5. most large mammals breastfeed their young until they are 4x birth weight (which would put a human child at around 2.5-3.5, on average). the american academy of pediatrics recommends breastfeeding exclusively (that is, no other nourishment) until six months and thereafter on demand until at least twelve months, after which point they say "continue as long as it's mutually desirable."
it's an american prejudice to think that breastfeeding is somehow wrong, controlling, perverted, kooky, the sign of a mother with oedipal issues, the sign of an overinvolved mother, etc. as i mentioned in another thread, i was CBC until i got pregnant, which was a surprise (so i hadn't thought about these things much). my attitude was fairly typical of a educated american: i thought it was "normal" to breastfeed for a year and then increasingly "weird." i thought my sister was "weird" for breastfeeding a 2.5 year old.
all of my research indicates that my assumptions were based on nothing. nothing except how effective the advent of food mass-production and the medical establishment's pushing formula (which it did, with a vengeance, telling wannabe-breastfeeders they would hurt their babies, the babies would be retarded, etc.) during the forties - exactly the same time mass culture became the norm. i also think the american discomfort with breastfeeding comes out of a culture discomfort with the body that leads us to extremely rigid attitudes about what 'nice girls' do and an extremely high porn consumption. we do the same thing with alcohol: rigidly control it and then binge-drink, with the highest incidence of alcohol-related fatalities of any nation. if you are american, it's difficult to not think of breasts as a sexualised (dangerously so) body part, although this attitude extends outside america's borders: paul mccartney famously said "those [your breasts] are mine!" when his wife wanted to breastfeed.
so my current take is that it's biologically and nutritionally normal and advantageous to the baby/child (i'm not so much one of those parents who thinks "breastfeeding is so great for the mom emotionally," but whatever; if you are, enjoy it, i say) for breastfeeding to continue at least through the preschool years, if that's what the parent wants.
personally, i doubt i'll breastfeed that long. one reason is that i want to have another child, and i want to do it well before i'm 35, and i don't want to tandem breastfeed (breastfeeding an older child and an infant simultaneously). i also don't want to try to breastfeed throughout pregnancy, which some people do very happily, because i suspect it would be hard for me (i am a thin person who has to eat an alarming amount to breastfeed - i literally eat five meals a day plus boxes of candy for overflow calories, and i'm still barely making it, like a car that's constantly hovering near E; also, my first pregnancy was hard for me and i only gained 15 lb. - which means i actually lost weight since the boy was 7.5 of that; i lost 25-30 lb. in the one day i delivered, so i have some anxiety about keeping my own physical resources topped up).
i was thinking i would try for now and have another august baby (exactly 2 years apart), but i don't think that would work because of BFing and other considerations. i am considering trying to get pregnant in january. if that happened, i'd probably BF a couple more months, then try to wean. (another problem with that is that the bean has a milk allergy and still gets a lot of his nutrition from breastmilk - around 4 feedings per day). if i don't get pregnant for whatever reason, i don't know exactly when i'll stop, but i see myself tapering off sharply by around two years of age, mostly due to the hassle of scheduling work (and i'm a college prof with a daycare on campus, so it's easier for me than most) around BFing.
so that's me. but as you see, my thoughts about when to quit breastfeeding are all about me and my future plans, not about the bean. i do have in mind an 18 month minimum, which is a compromise between optimal health benefits and the contingencies of life, for his breastfeeding career. of course if he wanted to stop, i'd stop, but that seems unlikely!
Nov 22 2006, 08:49 AM
gren...i of course meant mom of an older baby! i'll read your response now.
Ok, response read. Thank you. I appreciate the perspective. I'll definitly bring it up the next time the topic comes up in conversation...which will most likely be tomorrow!
Yeah, I pretty much thought I was weird b/c breastfeeding was never a pleasent thought for me, and I probably gave up on it way too easily. I do find it strange, though, in our culture/place/avaliablity of other nutriton/etc. that a pre-schooler would still breastfeed. I remember, when I first got pregnant, my sister called me from school, where She's finishing a master's degree in public health. anyway, she called to INFORM me that I'd better be ready to quit working b/c the WHO says I need to breastfeed for 2 years, minimum. I asked her if that's the worldwide reccomendation, or what's reccomended more towards impoverished nations to quell the really insidious spread of formula and bad water that does, in fact, activily kill babies. SHe was PISSED that I even questioned it and went on a tirade about breastfeeding mothers being chastised in malls. I guess my point there is that I live in surburban, middle class America- the water is fine. The food supply I choose to feed my family is local, organic and pretty much whole-foods (although I admit a penchant for doritos!). There is also a certain social awareness and benefit to "fitting in" for the child and parent's sake, I guess.
Oddly enough, it makes me damed angry when I'm accused of killing/torturing/harming my daughter b/c i chose to formula feed...as if it were some sort of easy descision to make for MY sake. 4 days of labor, c-section, low-blood sugar (i.e. hypoglycemic) baby, and a bitchy lactation consultant all were serious contributors, although the most serious was the hypoglycemia. Who in their right mind would force a baby to go through that?!? And, it makes me damed mad when I hear someone bitching/complaining about a breastfeeding mother. Hello?!? We each do our best to provide sustenance for our children. That's our job.
Ok, was that a weird rant? Sorry. I think I need something to eat, too.
I think that 18mos-2 years is a decent timeframe- not strange at all. I'm impressed you are going this long, actually. And working on top of it!
Nov 22 2006, 08:57 AM
I nursed frecklette til she was 2.5.
I never planned it that way... first it was 'til she was 6 mo's'.. and then at 6 mo's she was doing so great (even w/ the cutting teeth at 5 mo- ouch!
) that it just made more sense to keep on and it didn't make any sense to switch her to formula, then at 1 yr again, she was doing sooo good, and were supplementing w/ soft foods and the like so on it went. at the 1 yr mark *I* got cut off from WIC, which pissed me off greatly bc I was Still Nursing and as it's a program that is supposed to encourage that I felt a fair amount of outrage, but anyway, by the time she ws approaching 2 I knew it was time to be looking for an end-plan, and when the mr got Orders to go to Korea for a year w/out us and freck & I were moving in w/ family out of state the time was upon us. we cut back to night nursings only, and by then it was 99% for Comfort anyway, bc it all happened pretty fast, the move, her dad leaving, her mom stressed beyond beliefe, I didn't have the heart to take away the single only consistency in her world, you know?
( & for what it's worth, she never ever took a pacifyer whatsover, and I do think it's bc of the b'fing, which kind of backfired on me bc she nursed on demand.)
but anyway, as to what people say- why care?
I'm not some sort of crazy extremist hippy mom that planned to nurse til my kid was 5, I was/am just a mom who was following what my instincts were telling me about the needs of MY Particular Child.
it's never a judgment bc children are all unique little beings.
people are going to intepret your actions based on Their own issues, so don't accept any of it from them.
breastfeeding can be awesome, the bonding is a wonderful thing, but so can bottle feeding too.
both ways you get to cuddle and snuggle a sleepy and content baby, and who looses in that situation ever?
Happy Turkey Day to all ~~~~
ps: and now for my own Issue of the day: the mr was away last night, and it was stormy & windy & late into the night, freck & I were both still awake when the power flashed.
freaked the Hell out of me, like something out of a B horror movie so I MADE frecklette get out of her cosy bed where she was in her 'sleepy zone' and go to my room to sleep on the flip out (foam) loveseat bed, so that *I* could have peace of mind enough to go to sleep later w/out getting up 15 times in the night to check on her. I'm almost 36 and stil get so scared it's embarrassing.
Nov 22 2006, 09:24 AM
good for you for making your own decision and not bowing to pressure. the thing that bothers me, though, is that a lot of people think that breastfeeding as long as you did makes one a "crazy extremist hippie mom." obviously, it doesn't. history and biology tell us that is perfectly normal. you don't seem either crazy, or extremist, or hippie to me. so why do we all buy into that?
(sorry about the night fears - i don't blame you.)
mox, it sounds like you got set up with a lot of baggage by people like Bossy Sis. i'm sorry. it's a stupid shame when people make the kind of pronouncements that just sour other people on their own choices and possibilities.
re the WHO recs: my understanding is that it IS a worldwide recommendation; you're correct in thinking that in the u.s. of a., where clean water and good hygiene are the norm, people can formula-feed safely, whereas in some countries it would be a definite risk, but the recommendation includes industrialised nations.
we all make compromises. i think breastfeeding is the best for the child, but that doesn't mean i have to vilify someone who chooses not to breastfeed, any more than she should vilify me for living within a mile of a freeway (which will cause my son to lose 1% of his lung function each year. ouch).
the thing that bothers me is that widespread ignorance/prejudice cause 1)poor mothers' children to be denied breastfeeding(and the poorer a u.s. mother is, the more likely she is not to BF) and 2) incidents like the delta one, where people's rampant ignorance causes an entire family to be deplaned.
i'm not worried about myself, because i have an incredible amount of cultural and educational privilege and a ton of practise in not fitting in. but i am worried about the thousands of moms - my students, for example - who aren't as independent as freck and think they can't breastfeed because someone looks at them funny. i'm worried about the young women who have a negative feeling about breastfeeding, but don't have the tools (intellectually or culturally) to look at where those feelings come from and to make their own decisions.
Nov 22 2006, 09:40 AM
1 mile of a freeway? Who the hell doesn't live w/in a mile of a freeway? Sheesh.
Nov 22 2006, 09:44 AM
yeah, i know. some people don't. but i do. i actually very carefully chose my house to be over 900 metres from a freeway, which is apparently where the benzene and particulate matter levels start to sharply drop, but this city is way high on the carcinogens scale. i want to move to an island with no cars.
Nov 22 2006, 10:07 AM
We have one of those in MI...trouble is, its an island...and unless you can drive a horse-buggy or shill silly souvaniers, there's not much by way of work.
Nov 22 2006, 10:10 AM
QUOTE(moxiegirl @ Nov 22 2006, 11:24 AM)
We have one of those in MI...trouble is, its an island...and unless you can drive a horse-buggy or shill silly souvaniers, there's not much by way of work.
mox! this is a fantasy! there is no "work"!
ETA: i think it's interesting that the underlying assumption of all our posts is that breastfeeding should end as soon as possible and must be justified to continue. where do you think that comes from? to me, this is an issue of intellectual freedom - like so many aspects of parenting.
Nov 22 2006, 10:49 AM
i wouldn't trade the breast for formula during the day, what's the logic in that? it's nutritionally inferior to the breast so why do it if you're already breast feeding and it's going ok for the two of you? that doesn't make any sense to me.
i did pump sometimes when i needed to be away but the convenience and other benefits of mommybabybooby feedings were always so easy for me. then again, i wore that kid for about two years so...
(blanche, the best place to sneeze is the sneeze pocket [inner elbow]. no germs on the hands and they love how funny it is).
i breast fed until little was 3.5 and hardly anyone had the nerve to say anything to me about it. i'm a scrappy little thing, i would have torn that flight attendants head off. besides, breast feeding is the best way to help that horrible ear popping thing on planes. stupid woman. barf and poop can be offensive too, are we going to start kicking kids off of planes for doing those things?
i'm a big breastfeeding advocate. i boycott nestle (yes, all of their products including haagen das) and i will bitch slap anyone who says boo to me and my boobs with this next baby too. screw that. i ain't taking no shit. i don't care where we are, if someone can't take it They should scram. perverts.
Nov 22 2006, 11:34 AM
gren- i don't know if the underlying assumption is that we "should" stop breastfeeding at any given time. Its certainly what brought the topic to mind, as its been a topic of conversation in my IRL circle lately. I think the "should" is whenever the mom and baby as a team decide it "should" happen.
I do fight the tendency to go super-duper defensive when the topic comes up, and I apologize if I've come off that way. Pepper- there are lots of logical and perfectly acceptable reasons not to breastfeed- day, night, or ever. So, without going ape-shit defensive, please understand that many very intellectually serious and maternally dedicated women choose that option. Even when it "works"...
Some work long hours where pumping isn't an option.
Some get sick or were seriously traumatized (physically and mentally) from pregnancy.
Some don't make enough milk (and yes, this really happens)
Some have inverted nipples.
Some just get plain, old depressed and want to harm the baby every time he/she latches on.
Most of us have some combination of the above.
Nov 22 2006, 11:48 AM
frecklette was born in Panama, in the Canal Zone, over in central america.
she was born in an english-speaking hospital,but one used by most of the foreign diplomats & the "rich" there.
that I chose to breast feed was severly Looked Down On over there, at least by the other new mothers.
(the military doctors & nurses I had were totally supportive and even actually EXCITED bc I was literally the only
one on of the maternity floor doing so. they actually brought several new young Panamanian dr's and nurses into my room to use me as a sort of 'demo' or something, I guess to show them how natural and easy & good it can be? so they can then encourage their future patients later on.)
over there, and I can only fathom it to be similiar in other economically depressed areas (the rich to poor ration was wildly out of balance) Bottle Feeding is trendy, bc it shows you can Afford it
you may be living in squalor, w/ not so much as even clean drinking water, but damnit- you CAN find the means to defy the rest of your life by achieving this Status.
it's so ironic and sad. but the forumla companies donate so much free formula in these areas (to the lower income hospitals and clinics) to get these women started.. makes it look soooo inviting, the Freedom to Not Have to breastfeed, like it's a mark of something terrible and awful.
honestly I had not given any forethought to nursing vs formula before freck was born.
not at all. but when she was born, it just was
and there we went, easy as that and never once did it occure to me to not listen to what was biologically the most intrinsic instinct, even when I had people questioning me left and right. their words literally fell on deaf ears.
I wish now I had realised how unique I was in that situation and in that time, bc the me Now would be out there in the streets advocating and working to improve the "image" of b-fing. that I was a young AMERICAN (i-e rich
) woman Voluntarily nursing my baby bc it was Healthy for her and would give her the best start in life.. yah, I imagine I could have made at least a small impact.
our society, and I say that in the largest sense of the words, is so skewed in terms of perspective on all this.
worldwide isn't the average age like 5 or so? (thought I had read that once, might be wrong) which goes to show you that the almighty US (w/ regards to sweet pepper
) is sadly behind the times.
have any of you read Mothering magazine before?
great resource for nursing moms and natural/attatchment parenting.
now as to this Island where there are no cars........ do you mean Mackinac? or is it mackinaw?
I am from IN right on Lk Mich and desperately want to move back to a small beach town ( New Buffalow in MI would be ideal) but know in reality it will likely never happen. I am destined to be landlocked forever more I'm afraid.
Nov 22 2006, 12:01 PM
my mother-in-law, the attachment parenting pusher, offered me mothering magazine when my son was born, but i didn't think it was really me, mostly because i want more science and less happiness than most parenting magazines offer. but i gave it to my pregnant sister-in-law and stepbrother just a couple weeks ago. it is a good alternative to the more conventional rags, for sure.
yeah, freck, you were a revolitionista without realising it
mox, i am talking about the language we use to decribe breastfeeding, esp. after age 1: weird, kooky, hippie, extremist, etc. i'm aware no one was saying that's what breastfeeding is, but i do think it's telling that those are the kind of questions we (including me) ask.
(((moxie)))) you do not have to be on the defensive. no one here is questioning your choices. every individual woman has the right to decide what is "perfectly acceptable" for her. if you've made your decision, that is enough.
and i can tell you all right now that we're not going to agree on what is acceptable. that's okay with me. what's not okay with me is people (like myself) acting without thinking (when i was pregnant, i said i was going to breastfeed for a year exactly because i was reflecting all of these groundless biases against breastfeeding - and i won't say "extended breastfeeding," because i consider "extended" to be after at least two years, based on the global norms).
Nov 22 2006, 12:30 PM
ah, sorry gren- i see your point. The language does lead to that thought, I'd agree with you about that. At a certain point, though, based on our generally accepted, middle-class, midwestern values (i'll go all red-state on this one!), there does come a point where it's strange (intriguing at best, disturbing at worst) sight to see a verbal, walking child asking or getting to BF in public places. I think its the concept that BF is perfect for infants, but children need "more" or different nutrition, so continued BF past the infant stage "must" be a selfish act on the mother's part. Not wanting to "let go" and all that.
I know I don't have to be on the defensive, which is why I apologized if I sounded like I was. I know the choice we made was the right one for my family at the time. I just have to remember that my experiences as a bottle feeding mother are equally as valid and provide a different perspective on the conversation. Which is, of course, why I asked the question in the first place!
On another note of strikingly errie coincidence...just saw this on the washingtonpost.comhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...6112101316.html
Nov 22 2006, 12:53 PM
i think the idea of normative american values is problematic. maybe i'm not a very good american.
it's interesting that the author of that article chose to conclude by citing the WHO recommendation to exclusively breastfeed for six months, rather than the WHO recommendation to breastfeed for two years. if i didn't know better, i'd think she was either a sloppy researcher or subtly generating antipathy for emily gillette.
Nov 22 2006, 01:15 PM
going with the style of writing, i'm voting for both.
Hmmm...changing the conversation here a little bit, and venturing into "me, me, me" territory- would it be worthwhile to discuss any positive value to bottlefeeding?
Nov 22 2006, 01:54 PM
I'm gonna de-lurk and weigh in here, Mox - yes, absolutely there are benefits to bottle-feeding, at least for me.
I was very pro-EBF at the beginning, and still am, but supplementing with formula has been one of the best decisions we've made. I went back to work full-time when Tartlet was 3 months old, and even with pumping 3-4X a day, I was never able to keep up with his healthy appetite. Keeping a tub of formula in the house saves me the stress & anxiety of not being able to feed my child when I'm not there. Bottles also mean Tartman can participate in the nursing process, as well, an important step in their father/son bonding, I think. Expand that nursing role to include grandparents & honorary aunties & uncles, and it's even more rewarding.
Make no mistake - Tartlet will take the boob over the bottle any day of the week. But to me, a bottle given with love and nurturing attention is just as meaningful to our wee ones as getting it on tap.
For the record, since you asked, Mox, we're in the BF-til-we-just-can't-take-it camp. That could be next month, could be next year. I don't have an agenda... I figure we'll know when it's time to stop. I admit, I do question exactly whose needs are coming into play when I see 2+ year olds BFing, but that's my own hang-ups about autonomy & self-actualization showing their heads.
I think culturally we mums get fed a double-standard: if you don't BF your infant, you're a bad mother; if you do BF your toddler... you're a bad mother. WTF, I say. Let's just feed & nurture our kids the best we can, whatever that means for each family...
Nov 22 2006, 01:58 PM
bottle feeding definately has it's plus's in terms of who can feed the baby; ie- the partners, siblings, extended family, care givers and so on. the mr didn't really get a whole ton of time w/ frecklette when she was a newborn due to her sleeping mostly on my lap on a pillow (no kidding) in direct connection to nurse continuously.
that, as compared to a nursing mother either having to express (something that never ever worked for me and was terribly painful no matter what method or machine I used) or to run in at times to nurse and go again.
that's my start- next!
Nov 22 2006, 02:16 PM
well, ok then. me, me, me time...its a long story.
For us, a HUGE part of the descision to bottle feed was 2 factors surround moxette's actual birth- 1. 4 days of labor+c-section and 2. her hypoglycemic status. During labor, i was on pitocin, so I couldn't eat. That, combined with my gestational diabetes, put her in dangerously low bloodsugar territory when she was first born. So, right away, while I was still being sewn up, she got a bottle. I wasn't about to let her suffer that pain after what we'd been through. I tried, honestly, to nurse while in the hospital, but I was pretty resentful of all the trauma of her birth to feel good and positive about dedicating that much more of myself to her at that moment. Moxieman did just about ALL the baby-care in the hosp. We discussed it in detail, and it was very important to both of us that he not loose that capability. It was the right "fit" for our family.
A HUGE benefit to us, to our lifestyle, is routine. All 3 of us are serious habit creatures. Moxette was on a bedtime routine at 2 weeks old...and she thrives on it. Bottle feeding- the regularlity of it, felt very "right" in that sense. Not to say that if she was (is) fussy, or hungry, or needed extra cuddles, i wouldn't whip up a bottle on demand in a second!
BOttle feeding also helped us transititon into our roles as parents w/o loosing each other more easily as well. We went out to dinner w/o the baby at 2 weeks- and she was fine. I went back to work at 9 weeks, and she was fine.
I have cuddles, snorgles and gazes aplenty when we eat...if anything, she's a bit lazy in learning to feed herself--mama always holds the bottle, so go for it, lady!
We've been lucky that her heath (this latest round of typhoid mary-ness not withstanding) has been excellent, and she's thriving on the formula.
In short, the short list of bottle-feeding:
KNowing how much food kidlet is getting (much more important in a newborn than a 7month old!)
I think we'll probably be in the bottle-til-we-can't-take it camp. I know I'm "supposed" to get her to a "big kid" schedule at 1 year, but we treasure the bedtime feeding, so I don't see a good reason to just cut it out.
Nov 22 2006, 02:39 PM
i agree that bottle-feeding is hugely more versatile in terms of demands on the mother's time, energy, breastmilk. and that can be conducive to a better-rested or balanced mother, particularly for those who work full-time at 9-5 type jobs (though i have a friend who did that and pumped just fine). me, i choose the balancing act because i believe in it and i can. i do view it as a temporary compromise on my freedom, but i believe in making that compromise - parenting is rife with them.
tart, you're not alone in that question about whose needs are coming into play. the thing is, though, that although we all seem to have this image of "controlling hippie mom who needs to be close to her kid by breastfeeding," i've never met one. my sister, whom i would cheerfully call an "extremist hippie," breastfed until almost age three, but it was very much her child who demanded it; she really wanted him to stop but didn't believe in refusal, just gentle dissuasion. i have another friend who breastfed until her daughter was four, and again, i'd say it was the child's desire for milk and comfort and not the mom's sick, perverted, twisted desires. you can't make a child breastfeed - once a child is no longer interested, he's going to do something else. i really think that stereotype is misogynistic in the extreme, just as it is incredibly presumptuous and inappropriate to presume that you *know* why a bottle-feeder is bottle-feeding and that she is *wrong* to do so.
that said, breastfeeding and routine aren't mutually exclusive. we are and have always been (well, since about 3 weeks) extremely routine (as in, on a schedule) in terms of feeding, and the bean has never had formula and has only ever had a couple of expressed feedings per week. in terms of mom-labor, i'd say breastfeeding is the easiest, but formula would be a hell of a lot easier than expressing milk (although that's not as heinous as it sounds). so, one of the biggest benefits of our breastfeeding is routine.
Nov 22 2006, 06:02 PM
moxie, sorry. i certainly didn't mean in ANY of those circumstances. i meant when it is working and the only reason a mom thinks of subbing a bottle in is because she thinks she 'should'. in that case i don't get it. i mean, if you need to (like you and tart did, i consider those situations in that light) then of course. but if you don't and it's working and you both are good with it? in that case why would anyone?
caution, long and ranty...
it's not like little wouldn't have LOVED to continue breastfeeding, and way more often than i would let him. he would have gone on for what felt like forever. it certainly wasn't for nutrition, it was pure comfort and closeness with mum. i was the one who limited it and then ended it all together. it wasn't easy but it was time. not time for him, time for ME. at three he was still just a wiggly, helpless, totally needy baby. they aren't grown ups at three and four, they are still so in need of us. it's ridiculous to demand that they be more independant than they naturally are at that stage, and each child is different. i'm no more inclined to set time restrictions on breastfeeding than i am on potty training, on learning to read, etc etc etc. there is a range, sure, but there is no set time when they should or have to be there and it's ok if they aren't. we aren't pumping out little robots, they're people for maude's sake. they are as individual as tiny people as we are as grown ups.
what i find, culturally, is that there isn't very much allowance for that. there is a LOT of judgement around people's expectations of children and parenting that's baseless and absolutely unfounded. as mommies we do our children the best service, i think, by questioning everything we get fed about having and raising them. i hardly believe anything anymore unless i prove it to myself first. i had him in the tub at home, i didn't circumsize him, i chose not to vaccinate, we co-slept until 2, breastfed until 3.5, i don't expose him to violent toys or shows, we eat a primarily organic veggie diet, he's going to an alternative school for as long as possible and i never lied to him about santa claus and the like. everything i've done so far has been against the grain but it felt and feels right to me so who is to say that i haven't made the right choices for us? every mother (parent) should get to feel that way. because they Chose, no matter what it was, not because they were guilted or pressured into going against their instincts.
i'm with frecke, if i'd known what i'd be up against i would have been out there for years advocating for change before i had little. i think it's tragic that there are so many uneducated people throwing their bad opinions around about kids. it's sad and harmful and such a waste of energy.
Nov 22 2006, 07:59 PM
mmmmmmkay, riiiiiight. oh, blanche?...why don't you just go ahead and....get knocked up sometime, mmmmkay?
yes. they are people. and so are we.
the island i am going to is the île de bréhat off of brittany. no cars. you take a ferry from the mainland to get there, and the post is delivered by bicycle. someday, when i get that novel published, that's where i'll be.
happy thanksgiving, everybody. and to all a good night.
Nov 22 2006, 10:21 PM
i learned a lot here today as well.
after i gave birth i wanted to breastfeed desperately as it is not only the most healthy option for your infant, it's costless! however the milk did not come in my right breast and after two weeks of seeing the obstetrician, general, and pediatrician with no results, we decided that formula was the way to go. i had no idea that humans could produce breast milk for four or five years after childbirth!
Nov 23 2006, 08:45 AM
my cousin has been lactating for over eight years.
(not to feed the same kid!! she has three and just never stopped making milk.)
Nov 23 2006, 09:53 AM
i'm sorry hiddenpoet, that sounds like i must have been hard on you. good for you for trying though.
there was an AWESOME article in mothering magazine from a woman who had been breastfeeding for over 20 years and had finally stopped.
it was just incredible.
i wonder how that works with colostrum production between babies. it's fairly essential, does the body just produce it after birth and then change back to regular breast milk or when tandem nursing does the new baby miss out on it? it's so very important though, how would that work? it would be interesting if the older child got a second dose of it when the new baby was born but then again, not much is produced at all so... very curious. got any ideas grenadine?
Nov 23 2006, 10:17 AM
funny you should ask...
everything i've read says that the milk does change to colostrum, usually by late pregnancy, and that this often prompts the older child to wean. but some don't mind the change in taste.
if i get any personal experience, i'll let you know.
i read that article.
there was also a good article a while back, i think in mothering, about a woman who had only one breast to nurse from due to massive scarring in the other and managed to breastfeed her children exclusively.
Nov 23 2006, 10:45 AM
wow, that's amazing. and must have felt so odd. can you imagine all that action on only one breast? very, very strange.
Nov 26 2006, 04:36 PM
breastfeeding vs bottlefeeding, huh? we did both, right from the get-go. i was in labor 36 hrs, pushed for 6 hrs, had a c-section, they nicked my bladder so i had to wear a pee-bag the first week ... i think i tore the night nurse a new one when she tried to get me to breastfeed the first time, having woken me out of the first sleep i'd had in three days: "nipple confusion my ass, he's 9 lbs, i'm deadmeat, give him a bottle, up my morphine and leave me the fuck alone!" ... and from then on it was bottle and breast, which worked splendidly for 3 months. until i decided i wanted my body back, and he decided he wanted mcdonald's fries & a chocolate shake ... hee!
i have the utmost respect for those who are adamantly pro-breastfeeding. as long as they respect me for my choices. which hasn't always been the case, sadly.
my dilemma of the week is a little removed from this wee one discussion, though. i'm hoping maybe some of the younger lurkers may jump in with advice from 'the other side'.
the boy has a myspace page. i've been trusting him (he can use his laptop without limits, in his room, behind closed doors). he insists its (local, school & camp) friends-only, and that he doesn't give out real info. he also says he doesn't even use it much anymore. i haven't jumped on the paranoid bandwagon that all our other friends have (b-i-l made my niece shut hers down), because the kid knows i'm part of an online community (or three!) and i've lectured him enough on how to do it safely and wisely.
but today, i had to borrow his laptop, and i noticed that myspace is one of his toolbar tabs. so i asked to see his page. and he refused. said i could look at it "later". i pressed him and he admitted to having some photos on it. i told him i want to see who his friends are. i asked him if i opened an account, could i be one of his friends. he looked at me like i had two heads. he said he'll let me see it, but i'm sure by the time he lets me see it, damage control will have been done.
now i'm paranoid & scared & more than a little pissed. i'm this close to asking a friend to find it for me (i tried & can't) so i can snoop. it's a little more than invading his privacy, like reading his diary: it's out there for the world to see, no matter how safeguarded he thinks he has it. then again, i know full well, if you threaten to take something away, they'll want it even more.
i try very hard to let him be his own person: supporting his new vegetarianism, letting him grow his hair long ... i want to trust him to make his own decisions. he's a smart kid. but he doesn't have many close friends .... i'm just afraid of the lure of ... i don't even know how to label it .... it's not even about the piece-of-shit-felons-waiting-to-happen out there (i mean, it is, of course, but it's not just that). i'm worried about relationships with older people in general, i guess. people i don't know.
i want to say to him, "look. i do trust you. and i'll continue to trust you. but i can't do it blindly with this. you gotta give me assurances once in a while. spot-checks or something. you have to compromise something."
and then there's the part of me that just wants to go ballistic and take the damn computer away from him period.
i'm fairly confident i did an ok job when he was little, but now i strongly suspect i suck at being the mother of a teenage boy.
Nov 26 2006, 09:08 PM
*enter the mega-post*
i'm sure you don't suck. however...
myspace is interesting. not to freak you out, but my husband and i joke that myspace is for people who want to hook up and friendster is for thirtysomethings who want to have cocktail parties. there's truth in that - the myspace community is very young, very much part of the "who cares about spelling or grammar" generation (but that's another thread), and very prone to sending out random mails to people they've "browsed" requesting that they become 'friends.' my husband gets slutty pictures from random girls (usually in malaysia or the philippines) on a semi-regular basis, and i got the same from men. when i changed my friendster age to 18 i got TONS of friend requests from creepy fifty-year-old men (is that redundant? in my book, any fifty-year-old trolling for teenage girls on the internet is creepy).
all this by way of saying i think you're right to worry about it, and there are definitely unscrupulous sorts trolling for minors online.
that said, he's probably mostly going to meet lonely teenage girls...
but the creeps are out there.
it's a hard position you're in. it seems to me that you're right to worry but also right to recognise that you can't control what he does online. you might consider telling him you don't need to see it, but you do want him to follow some safety guidelines:
1)change his age to older, like 25. pedophiles search for the young ones.
2)no identifying characteristics AT ALL. that means no name (he can use a nickname or a pseudonym), no age (as above), no location.
3)make his page visible only to friends. this way people have to be accepted before they can view all the details.
4)if he's going to meet someone IRL whom he's met online, he should do it in daylight, with other friends present or nearby, in a public place. you would prefer it if he let you know, not so you can police him but because that is a very real danger. plenty of forty-year-old men masquerade as teenage girls online.
i'm sure there's something i'm missing, but that's where i would start. if he gets the message that you trust him and you're not trying to limit him, just to keep him safe, will he respect that? is he mature enough to handle your revealing the reasons for your panic?
i wouldn't try to see his page or his friends if i were you. one, not looking will score you a lot of points and make him feel trusted. two, whatever you see is meaningless as he'll be able to change it back, etc. if that's what he's worried about. ditto who his friends are - the information doesn't seem that meaningful to me. if i were a teenager i know i'd be doing whatever i damn well pleased on myspace, but i'd respect my parents' concerns if they respected my privacy.
as for the being concerned about relationships with older people...if he can avoid the flat-out felons, aren't those risks his to take? not that i'm arguing for that, just that i can't see any way you can keep tabs on this without alienating him. maybe if you initially win his appreciation for showing him trust and trusting him with your concerns, you'll eventually be able to voice your concerns about inappropriate relationships.
& on the breastfeeding/respect/choices tip, i just think people need to realise that they have neither the right to judge other people's decisions, nor to demand endorsement for their own. i am adamantly pro-breastfeeding, and i'm also adamant about the fact that there is no way for me to know what it is to be mando or pepper or moxie or freckle or tart or anyone else, and therefore it's meaningless for me to say "you made the right decision" or whatever. i think sometimes there's so much pressure to get affirmation that we understand someone saying "i believe/do this" as a request for agreement. how can you "agree" with anyone ELSE's choices? they're someone else's choices! and how can we be "right" about what is "best"?? i think that breastfeeding is nutritionally superior, but that doesn't mean i think "breastfeeding is BEST for EVERYONE else all the time no matter what and if it's not the choice you made then you're bad nyah nyah!"
on a related note, i read somewhere that parents are often threatened when their adult children make different parenting choices than they did - because it implies criticism of their choices. and i definitely see that applying to friends and peers as well...
Nov 27 2006, 06:49 AM
well, since the whole notion of myspace creeps me out (and, yet, i bust...), i don't know how much I have to add. I do think that setting some strict guidelines with some sort of spot checking is a reasonable approach. Teenagers are bound to test the waters often. For all you know, mando, there's a girl he likes there who he's embarrassed for his mom to see. Or, it could be the creep down the block. Or, he could (gulp, little danny), have some nekkid chick from thailand as a friend. That, he DEFINITLY wouldn't want his mom to see, but would still be totally normal at his age. Keep the lines of communication open, and set some reasonable and serious guidelines. You're a GOOD MOM.
gren, its funny you should say the whole criticism/different choices thing. I think that hits the nail right on the head. We're incredibly lucky that our BFFs had a great BF experience, because it let us see the day-to-day positive benefits of that, and BFF has often said the same to me about bottle feeding. Ah, support amongst mothers...why is it so damed limited?
Nov 27 2006, 12:16 PM
*delurks* (i don't know why i lurk in this thread, as i have no kids and don't plan to for a long time, possibly never, but i find it interesting)
mando, my two cents on the myspace issue. i actually just found out that my mother has seen my myspace page, and it took me aback--even though i'm 23 and have lived on my own for the past 7 years, and don't really hide anything from her. she too was shocked, because i had used the word "fuck" in my profile--in a quote of song lyrics. neither of these things is really that suprising--if you put something out on the freaking internet, you shouldn't believe there are limits to who can and can't see it. i disagree with the fact that it's like a diary. a diary is explicitly private.....myspace is just explicit. it's the INTERNET, it's accessible by anyone in the world. on the other hand, while i might say it in front of friends, i'd never use the word "fuck" in front of my mom, which is why she was taken aback.
the way i see it is, having your parents look at your myspace is like having your parents watch you party. it's a difference of culture and attitude--you act completely differently around your friends than you do around your parents, and for good reason. and it's not like you act badly around your friends, but things would be different if your mom was watching over your shoulder.
i think that as long as he knows not to meet anyone from the internet, he should be fine (and perhaps let him know that if he does meet someone on myspace he wants to meet in real life, you would need to know about it and check out the details with her parents first). there's a line between giving your kid privacy and putting him in danger, and you seem to be treading it really well. though myspace is visible to anyone, you WILL score cool points for not looking, and i would highly doubt there's anything on there that should be worrisome to you. he probably just doesn't want to show you the persona he projects to his friends, since it's bound to be different than the one he projects to you.
Nov 27 2006, 12:55 PM
oh, ack. impetago. to the doctor we do go...
why does he get this so much? it's been three times in the last few months and do you think i can find the extra big bottle of perscription cream i got last time? oh no, of course it's the ONE thing in the house i Can't find. grr.
he threw up on thursday, was feverish on friday, has had three nose bleeds and has had a head cold since the fever quit. i let him sleep in this morning (which he never does) and miss school and he woke up with spots all 'round his mouth. i have had enough. poor little bugger, he's usually SO healthy, he just gets it all at once instead of spread out. gah.
i have nothing to add to the myspace conversation. so far all he does on the computer is play pajama sam. i can't wait for the teens, oh joy.
Nov 28 2006, 08:54 AM
poor (((little)))! i hope he's feeling better today.
much thanks to you, mouse & moxie & grenadine for the input. on your - and my favorite lurker's - advice, the kid and i talked rationally and he offered to show me his page and told me about his safeguards, which i'm happy with. he's really just into it to keep up with school chums. if someone he doesn't know sends him a request, he won't add them until he checks out who they are (usually an acquaintance). he's only 14, so he's not into meeting anyone yet, thank goodness. but i do feel that he's got his head on straight about the internet. and besides, he's much more into football stats/gaming than anything else. i think the myspace thing is just because everyone has one.
he even showed me a photo he has on there that he probably thought i'd object to, which i found hysterical. so we sort of bonded over that.
but i also thanked him for never snooping on me on bust. and told him that i would respect his privacy and not snoop on him on myspace. but he just has to show it to me and talk to me about it once in a while.
moxie, your "some nekkid chick from thailand" made me laugh. albeit wincingly.
Nov 28 2006, 09:51 AM
n/m, it's just a post viral rash which, by the time we got to the doctor, was Everywhere! it was light though and now it's mostly gone 'cept for right 'round his mouth. really, kids, what's the deal eh? who knew they would be so gucky.
good thing he's so cute. ha.
Nov 28 2006, 11:53 AM
pepper, sorry about the sicky kid! you have done a public service, tho: i now know what impetigo is.
mando, i'm so glad you and danny worked it out.
i like mouse lurking. i lurk in the childfree thread all the time. after all, i was adamantly childfree for a really long time. i never say anything, because i want that to be their space, but this space is, i think, more inclusive - CBC seems to often become a rant venue and i don't want to inhibit that.
moms of big kids, i have a question...did your kid stick with his toddlerhood obsessions? mine is actually SAYING "Football," "basketball" and "baseball" at 15 months. he has untold balls, pictures of balls, books about balls. he is obsessively making baskets in his little suction-cup hoop. i am laughing internally to think that he may be sports fanatic (in a family of effete intellectuals, ha).
Nov 28 2006, 12:04 PM
glad to help. i lurk in the cbc thread too (i'm on the fence about kids, probably going to have my own (or adopt) somewhere further down the line but definitely of the mind that it should be a choice, a responsibility chosen, and not the default) but i find myself having to bite my tongue a hell of a lot in that thread. i understand it completely--the attitude--because obviously our society is completely predicated on HAVING BABIES as the best thing a woman can do (beyond, say, wearing a dress well)...but sometimes i cringe. if you took the word "baby" or "parent" out of a lot of the conversation in there and inserted any minority, well, we'd have a hell of a problem.
but. like i said, i understand it. and i'm happy to bounce lurkfully between both these threads and respect both groups of women.
pepper, i had impetigo. it was awful. in 4th grade i had about every skin disease one could possibly get--impetigo, scabies, ringworm, chicken pox--maybe it's just little's time for those things, and he'll get it out of his system.
Nov 28 2006, 01:09 PM
QUOTE(mouse @ Nov 28 2006, 01:21 PM)
if you took the word "baby" or "parent" out of a lot of the conversation in there and inserted any minority, well, we'd have a hell of a problem.
exactly. or "old person." even when i was adamantly childfree (and just for clarity, my childfree life was a decision i made very young and stuck to for a logn time, and my pregnancy and life change into parenthood was unintended, though i don't regret my decision), i didn't hate people with kids or kids themselves. stupid people with stupid kids, hell yeah. but i babysat for a living for too many years not to know that there are some damn cool kids in the world and they already have too little power and too much censure.
there have been plenty of times where, if i were still CBC, i would've spoken up in that thread, but i feel that making a decision to have a child excludes me (which is fine) even though i would've said the same things.
i am lucky that my parents were unconventional enough never to oppress me with their expectations.
Nov 28 2006, 02:48 PM
geez, where were you guys when i got strips tore offa me for saying the exact same thing? that thread is scary to me, i know better than to even peek again.
the impetigo that he's gotten has been so mild (knock on wood, knock again), just a wee spot around the mouth or nose and that's it. my friend's little girl has it right now though and it's so bad she's on antibiotics for it. it's in her ears, all over her face, neck, etc. it's ghastly and i think quite painful for her too.
little had the pox already, when our neighbour's little girl got it i stuck them in the bath together and literally rubbed her on him. she had it Everywhere. so. many. spots. but he only got a few, i think because i was still breastfeeding him at the time (around 3). he's amazing though, he gets a little something and it's gone in just a couple of days. he's a really healthy kid, lucky me. but he does get wicked growing pains in his legs that wake him up at night. it's really bad, he comes into my room crying and asks me to rub his knees. we've been to the doc, nothing's wrong but ouch it hurts him a lot. he takes a multi vit but i'm thinking of a liquid calcium supplement as well.
mouse, i had scabies when i was little too. i don't remember because i was so young but my mom told me it was awful. i had the pox and i remember that being sucky 'cause i couldn't go outside. and one time we moved into a house that had had dogs in the basement and the first morning we woke up there i was covered from head to toe in flea bites. really, just Covered. my mom flipped and had an exterminator come but she never got over it, she Hates fleas. i only actually remember that one vaguely.
hey, do any of you recall a traumatic event that occured during your childhood and how your parents dealt with it? my mom was washing dishes and sliced off the end of her pinky finger with a sharp knife in the dishwater when i was about three or four. i remember being terrified that she was going to die or be severely hurt, there was a lot of blood but she was just laughing about it. it was really upsetting for me, so much so that i freak if someone drops a sharp knife in the dishwater, those stay on the counter and get washed seperately every time. i'm pretty sure i got ignored during that episode, she had to have it sewn back on (ack!) but i remember being just terrified.
i can't decide whether having little here when i give birth is a good idea or a terrible one. there is panting and moaning and pushing and blood and it goes on and on, i just don't know. i watched my sister's birth when i was 6 but... is he ready for that or will he think i'm in pain and get scared? what do you all think?
Nov 28 2006, 03:01 PM
eh, whatever - sorry you got a lashing, pepper! they can say whatever they like in CBC, you say what you like here, and i'm glad we have people posting in both threads who take a more neutral position (not that there is rivalry between the threads, but definite lack of appreciation at times...).
i got scabies on a chicken bus in guatemala. it SUCKED. fortunately it was only on my arm, because that's where i was rubbing against the random stranger scabies carrier, but YUCK.
hmm...i accidentally cut my wrist open on a mountain and had to be rushed to the ER as a kid, but it really wasn't that traumatic. i dunno, will have to mull about that.
my husband was present at his sister's birth and he didn't care (as in, not traumatised but also not very interested - it's weird to hear him talk about it). i know other people who were present during siblings' births and really were traumatised, as in afraid to give birth/see babies/etc. why not have someone you trust be with little in the other room - as his own personal birth companion? that way you can maybe have him there while it's not too loud/violent/dramatic but also have him looked after in case you or he need him to be away from all that.
Nov 28 2006, 03:46 PM
QUOTE(grenadine @ Nov 28 2006, 11:26 AM)
i am lucky that my parents were unconventional enough never to oppress me with their expectations.
i am, too. in fact i wonder if i'd be more fiercely cbc if i had ever been pressured to have kids or get married. i'm 23, and the oldest of my generation in my family (all girls, too) and i've never been asked, by any family member, when i'm going to have kids or why i'm not in a relationship. my cousin, who's a year younger, has been engaged a couple of times already to different guys, but even she has told her current fiancee that they can't get married until she finishes school, and my rather conservative aunt has expressed concern that she's never been single. also, the most recent generations of my family are pretty small. my grandparents had a lot of siblings but they all either only had one or two kids, or had none, so there's not that feeling of "everybody's doing it". the last time i was home i actually asked my parents if they were sad that i might never give them grandkids, and they said it was absolutely my own decision. they're pretty awesome.
anyway. i don't mean to derail this thread.
i can't think of a traumatic experience from childhood....once when i was very small i got my hand tangled in the strap of a thermos of hot tea and was burned pretty badly, but i think it's much different when it happens to you than when it happens to someone that you care about.
and.....pepper, how old is little? does he understand childbirth? i would tell him about it and ask him if he wants to be there or not.
Nov 28 2006, 03:53 PM
aw, heck. derail away..
my mom was totally surprised when i told her i was having a kid. she clearly never expected me to (and was fine with that; i don't think it would ever occur to her to try to influence my procreating)...but not as surprised as she was when i told her i was married (we eloped).
i think the decision to have kids or not is (should be) an interesting and involved one. i strongly support CBCers...in fact, i drove one of my friends to have an abortion right after my son was born. when she told me she was pregnant i think she actually expected me to tell her to keep it, as if becoming a mother had somehow rotted my judgment completely...the thing that becoming a mother has done is make me acutely aware what a very big responsibility it is to have a child and how very dependent newborns are and how easily abused parental power is, and i wish more than ever that people who are unsure/unwilling/just bowing to convention would knock it off (and not up) already.