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30's that is exactly what i thought. peeing in the plant.
Gardenparty, that guy's name wasn't Nate was it?
the mr. was talking about watching the transformers with her grandchild, and at one point she was talking about "octopus prime" instead of optimus prime.... i died of laughter...
the mr. was talking about watching the transformers with her grandchild, and at one point she was talking about "octopus prime" instead of optimus prime.... i died of laughter...
ok, I don't know where else to put this, but this seemed to be the best place.... not something idiotic somoene else said, but a total "I want the ground to open up and swallow me" on my part.

So I was at this party last night that was put on by a comedy festival that is in town for the people involved, performers, staff, etc. A friend of mine works with the organizers, so he took me along. So I'm at the bar, and end up chatting with the guy next to me. No flirting or anything, just that "that person next to me looks nice, I'll chat with him to keep busy" kind of thing. So I ask him what he does and he tells me he has a show as part of the festival, that he's a performer. And I ask what his show is, and he tells me he's a magician and he mixes that in with comedy. I ask him what time his show is, thinking maybe I'll go, he tells me the time, it's the same time I'm working each night, so I can't go. So I ask his name, we make official introductions, and I'm like "oh well, maybe if you do another show sometime I'll get to see it." and he wanders off to get some food. we cross paths a couple times in the night, say hi and move on. ok..... fast forward to me talking to my friend later, I mention wishing I could check out this show by "some guy I was talking to who's a magician" and my friend is like WHAT?????!!!! turns out I was talking to this guy who is all over TV, is nominated for some big TV award, has show at prime slot at the festival, etc etc..

I feel like such a loser. I know nothing about comedy, except the couple of comedians I like. All I can think of is me saying to this guy "well, maybe if you do another show sometime......" hahahahahahahahaha!!!!
HAHAHAHAH zoya that's awesome. maybe you cut him down to size wink.gif i always think famous people could benefit from a nice dose of "so, what's your name?"
Well, spill! Who was it?
The physicist fella? Kevin, Keith, something or other? Cripes. There are a bescrillion acts to pick from if it's the fest I think it is.
Nah, his name was Ali Cook. ...No idea. Apparently he's got some show on British TV. I honestly can't tell you if he's any kind of famous or not. I have no idea who he is!!! Hahaha.
ive got one thats hard to top--
my current ex had taken me and my girlfriends out for cheesecake-
and when we wanted to eat it in the car, he goes "you can't eat cheesecake in the car!"
and i really understand not wanting to get your car messy, but his car was a bit of a wreck
so we kind of sat there for a moment until my friend goes, "why not?"
and he says," you eat fast food in a car, not cheesecake. duh."
and then proceeds to drive to a dunkin donuts, saying we should eat in there.
we were like...we didn't buy anything there. thats so weird.
i was so embarrassed :C!


i got shit for that for...ever.
oh my god. that is so insane. haha im shocked know. people act like that.

QUOTE(gardenpartyy @ Aug 9 2008, 10:12 PM) *
him: "I can see the whole room from here"

The he proceeds to sit on my couch & "center himself."

Okay. I got one. Fastest date gone south in the world. Fourteen minutes.

Met this guy, he seemed very nice & sincere. He asked to meet me for coffee. I got there, he wasn't as cute as I remembered him being & he was wearing one of those beaded hemp necklaces that I hate. We got our drinks & sat down. I found out that he was MUCH younger than he'd initially told me. He lamented about the ability to find a good woman in Denver. I admitted that there was a def inequality (I'd say it's likely 4:1 men:women.), but that most of my guy friends did well for themselves. He proceeded to tell me how hard it had been for him to get laid & that even the "fat ugly chicks" in bars seemed to think they were hot shit. YEAH, five minutes into the date! I suggested that perhaps his bad attitude was the culprit of him not getting any action. He insisted that no, it was the 4:1 that was the cause of his woes & asked about, "That serial killer? The one that killed all the nurses?" Richard Speck. "He had the right idea, somebody should be doing that in the clubs of Denver!" I suggested misogyny & the advocation of slaughtering women wasn't helping his situation & that he wasn't *entitled* to sex just because he wants it. At that point, minute ten, I should have left, but I was just fascinated by the fact that this guy actually wanted to FUCK ME & was talking to me like that. He launched into a talk about how much he got laid back home & the variety of girls from other states that he'd fucked or that he disliked because they wouldn't fuck him. He particularly hated Kansas girls for not giving it up. That was it. Minute fourteen I stood up, put on my jacket & told him that I could be getting laid by a hot guy right then & not listening to some silly little troll basically give me 100 reasons that nobody should fuck him. He followed me out of the coffee shop apologising, but I just booked. Thankfully he did not follow & I only saw him out again once after that, he was obviously prowling for girls. There was about a five foot ring of open space around him, the edges of which were nothing but men keeping him cornered from the ladies. Yeah, yeah, I likes the Denver.
blink.gif WOW blink.gif

Men who consider Richard Beck a role model are probably going to spend a lot of time single or only sleeping with the bodies of their victims. Yuck.
serious wauw, aural.

dood needs some serious help.... although i can see why he didn't get laid. ich, what kind of self-esteem mess would put up with that horseshit?
I did tell him that Richard Speck did enjoy his time in prison being somebody's bitch & that he could look forward to getting as much sex as he wanted if that's how he wanted to play things.
Christine Nectarine
QUOTE(auralpoison @ Sep 19 2008, 01:06 PM) *
I did tell him that Richard Speck did enjoy his time in prison being somebody's bitch & that he could look forward to getting as much sex as he wanted if that's how he wanted to play things.

ohmy.gif laugh.gif
Haha, AP, you're my hero. I'm so glad you got up and walked out. I can only imagine what goes on in his head.
QUOTE(erinjane @ Sep 19 2008, 06:07 PM) *
I can only imagine what goes on in his head.

hoooooo ... uh, YEAH.

anna k
Mine's not as bad as that, but I went out on a date with a guy tonight and he asked me why I was single. It just didn't feel appropriate to ask, and I said something about not having been with anyone I really liked, and felt uncomfortable with that.
Anna: I agree...that's a question that no one deserves to know on a first date.

(Actually it sounds like more of a job interview question. Like, asking someone to "fill in the gaps" anytime they haven't had a job with a good reason for the time off)

Worst I ever had was from a friend of my ex who chose to chat me up in front of a group of our mutual friends. He stared down my cleavage, started a loud argument about how wearing a low-cut top means that men are entitled to stare, then called me a 'psycho' for disagreeing. Eventually I gave up being polite and said 'Fuck you!', to which he replied 'Well, you're obviously not going to, and I put clean sheets on and everything!'.

Sad thing is, he wasn't joking....I got a series of texts later that night about how he was walking home alone to his lonely clean sheets (after I'd refused to give him a lift home as there was a high risk he'd throw up in my car).
Sorry, didn't mean to kill this thread! Should I have introduced myself here as well as the newbies thread before posting? Belatedly, hello! I'm 27 and hail from the UK and therefore go on proper 'dates' relatively rarely (oh, the convoluted informality of British mating habits!). I've just started seeing someone new, but before that was single for about 6 months (having got out of a year-long relationship), and had been starting to experiment with (which does seem very cool, I am enjoying match-making friends on there!).

Here's hoping everyone has gone away because their dates have been talking sense, rather than because I've spoilt the party....

That sex must have been 'out of this world'--haha. This guy was definitely on something combined with schizotypal disorder. I went out with a guy once who talked about nothing but his ex and how smart she was and how blah blah....I don't even remember. What a jackass

Him: So an ex of mine and I decided to create a list of everyone I've had sex with and rank them. 1 being the best.
Me: That's great.

Later that night I get a picture text of the actual list while I'm driving home with a caption reading: Where will you go?

...What a fucktard.
QUOTE(Persiflager @ Sep 23 2008, 01:22 PM) *
He stared down my cleavage, started a loud argument about how wearing a low-cut top means that men are entitled to stare, then called me a 'psycho' for disagreeing. Eventually I gave up being polite and said 'Fuck you!', to which he replied 'Well, you're obviously not going to, and I put clean sheets on and everything!'.

Sad thing is, he wasn't joking....I got a series of texts later that night about how he was walking home alone to his lonely clean sheets (after I'd refused to give him a lift home as there was a high risk he'd throw up in my car).

uggh. Once when I complained about getting groped at concerts, a guy who had a crush on me said "well that's your fault for having such big boobs." I got mad. When it finally, eventually became clear to him, after many incidents like this, he started acting really passive-aggressive towards me.
I love going out and dancing but I really hate getting rubbed on by random guys. They think the best way to approach you is to sneak up behind and rub their boner on your butt. Nice. I always get so annoyed and frustrated, but just try to move out of the way or "accidentally" elbow them until they get the message. But, y'know, guys don't really get subtlety.

I was at LoveFest (SF's Love Parade) a couple of weeks ago and this happened. I saw him trying to work on my friend, but she dances pretty big so he wasn't having much luck. So he works his way around the circle to me. As soon as I felt him against me I stopped dancing, turned around, looked him in the eyes, shook my head and mouth "NO". Very straight forward, didn't get mad, was just very clear. Oh man, it worked like a charm! He put his hands up and backed away into the crowd. And I can bet he didn't try it again for a while. My friend who had been the first target came right over and yelled "You're my hero!" in my ear (yelling cuz the music smile.gif) This technique is a Dan Savage recommendation from one of his podcasts and he's all about straight-forward speech and intentions. Wish I could give that man a hug.

I think I always felt like I shouldn't bruise their fragile egos or something. Us girls are brought up to be polite and nice all the time. But really, they need to understand that that's not an ok way to behave or they'll never get it.
when i was living in paris a few summers ago one of my girl roommates and i were taken to a club in pigalle, the "sex district" of paris (ie, where the moulin rouge is and which kind of hasn't really ever gotten past that) by some french guys we met at the bar where she worked. they were nice, but jesus christ the club we went to was unbelievable. it was your typical shoulder-to-shoulder packed danceclub, but not only was there constant boner-rubbing action going on, guys were constantly attempting honest-to-god fingering action. the group of guys who brought us were kind enough to make a sort of wall around the two of us to protect us, but if they weren't careful there would be a hand or two on my ass, trying to get into my panties (we were both unfortunately wearing skirts). we insisted on leaving after like ten minutes. it was ridiculous.
OMFG. That is unbelievable! Really really gross. Who does that?
I had a *friend* feel me up at a show once. He'd been moving through the crowd all night feeling up chicks from behind & didn't realize that he was feeling *me* up. (Bad move as I am notoriously vicious, I once punched a guy HARD straight in the windpipe for squeezing my tit so hard he ripped my shirt! He dropped like a rock. I bite, I steal their stuff, & I PINCH!) Anyway, I recognized the tats on my friend's hands & threw him a sharp elbow straight back into his gut & nearly broke his goddamned finger. Even later at the bar he still didn't quite understand why what he did was so wrong until I took drastic, uncomfortable measures. After he'd dropped me off for the night, he called me an hour later sobbing because he'd suddenly realized that something that was a common practice for him was something really shitty & that he'd probably hurt a lot of women by doing it. I never went to a show with him again after that, I didn't care how good the tickets were or that they were free.

Guys in clubs can be creeps. I went out with a friend once & her "date" & his friend tried to double team me on the dancefloor, one cock half up my ass, the other rubbing against my thigh. I promptly extricated myself without a word & told her I was leaving: I don't do that, not even in the name of taking one for the team. Another time a guy kept licking my neck, trying to grab my boobs & when all that failed, he tried to touch my poon by shoving his hand up my dress & clawing at the crotch of my tights. My girlfriends all stood around watching this & dancing & laughing like it was funny. I got mad, I shoved the guy away from me & nearly off the riser. Apparently my gfs weren't the only ones watching & when the guy came right back at me, a MUCH bigger guy got in between us rather meaningfully & the little greaseball stepped down. I kept that guy within arms reach (I was plastered to him, really, he was HAWT & a really good dancer. I still get a funny tingle in my nethers when I hear PJ Harvey's "Down By the Water".) all night because the skeeve lurked at the edges trying to get back in.
I hate it when you're dancing at a club with your girlfriend(s) and there's a moment when you realize that a circle has formed around you....and they're ALL guys. *shudder*

One time when I was at a club, I was at the bar getting drinks for me and my friend, and a guy came up and started talking to me and then quickly ran his hand up my thigh and between my legs. I was stunned. I told him I was there with my girlfriend and walked away. I told my friend what happened and later I saw him try to talk to her, and she told him off.

One of the last times I went out dancing, I was buying drinks for me and my date, and a guy sidled up next to me and asked me what I was drinking (like he was offering to buy.) I told him and said thank you, but I just paid - too late! He introduced himself, and when we should hands, he pulled me into a hug and started kissing my neck. I just said "I'M HERE WITH SOMEONE!" and he said, "Oh, sorry." and walked away. I saw him about 10 minutes later at the other end of the bar, hitting on another girl.
the last several post here are in some ways confusing. we have all had asshat guys tying to do totally out of line and rude things to us. so he in the confusing part, since it is so common it makes me think that this must work for some guys. maybe there are women that are ok with it? just go along to "be nice"? i mean why would some many guys do this type of thing repeatedly if all women were anything but turned on by it?
That's precisely it. A lot of women still hang onto the "be nice" they were taught as little girls. And since some women let men get away with it, they just keep doing it & it becomes habit. And I think some of them get off on our being uncomfortable with it. Like, "What is she gonna do about it? She's powerless. Or, If she doesn't like it, she must be a frigid lesbian bitch."

To Mark, my friend from the show, he didn't even think about the fact that he was violating another person's body. For him it was just, "Yea! Free boobie cops all night long!" They were not women, they were just boobs. And apparently nobody had every gotten more aggressive than simply moving his hands away & when they did, he'd move on to the next set of tits for his consumption. Not to mention that Mark was 6'4" & 220lbs of pure intimidating as fuck muscle. I don't think he consciously thought of that as an advantage until I grabbed his nuts under the bar hard enough to bruise & explained to him what it was like to be vulnerable like that. I'm no petite, blushing flower & wouldn't let go until I was good/ready & there was nothing he could do about that outside of hitting me in public. He wasn't about to do that in a crowded bar, that could have gotten him arrested, bruised nuts or no bruised nuts. In the crowd at the show I was a powerless woman, in that crowd at the bar he was a powerless man. His brute strength was a weakness in that moment. I took his power away & he didn't like it.

Anyway, back to "being nice", I was at the market with my father once in hs & a guy friend from school's dad tried to waylay me with a big "Hi, Aural! How's my favorite thespian today?". I offered a curt nod & just kept on walking. This upset my father to no end because, "If somebody says hello to you, you say hello back". I had to explain to him that the sole reason the man wanted to stop & talk to me was so his eyeballs could crawl all over my rack, that it made me feel uncomfortable & that he did it every time he saw me. That the last time he'd done it to both me & my *mom*. He thought it was in my head (Because, y'know, nobody'd do that to HIS *little girl*.) so as soon as we got home he asked my mom about it & she said, "Oh, that'd be Mr. Gunn. He's a disgusting creep, so I'm glad she didn't stop. Good for you, kiddo!"

We, as women, put up with/ignore a lot of shit whether it's from being nice or trying to preemptively avoid a dicey situation. Like, "If I make this a big deal things could escalate & somebody could get hurt". So we ignore, deny, but never forget that slight. That feeling of being marginalized because we didn't fight back, so it just keeps happening. We've talked before about how there will be one male predator in a group of friends, everybody knows, but nobody ever does anything so he's free to offend repeatedly. And one woman standing up may curb it a few times *with her*, but he'll just do it again to the others. And again. And AGAIN. If he don't think it's broke, why fix it on the opinion of one overeacting bitch, right? None of those other bitches said anything, so it must be okay, right? It's HER problem. RIGHT?

Last summer, my friend Tony whistled at me across a parking lot. I didn't have my glasses on, but I could tell there were four or five guys, so I ignored him. On the way back he did it again & when I still ignored him, he came running up behind me, I had my mace in my hand. Then he said my name & I knew who it was & relaxed. I had to explain to him that I am not a dog & that I do not come when whistled to & that guys say really fucked up shit to women all the time & that I didn't need that mess. And what if I had stopped & it *hadn't* been Tony, but some creep? In a fight it would have been five against one. Had five strangers taken me down, god only knows what could have ensued. He'd never thought of it that way before & apologized.

Then there's shit like that Chappelle skit where something is so out of line that you're so shocked you can't do anything but stand there with your mouth hanging open going, "OMG! I can't believe that just happened!" & you wind up not acting out of sheer horror at some guy's gall.
For me it's a combination of the fact that EVERYTIME it happens, I'm always in shock. By the time I can compose myself enough to say or do something, most of the time they've moved on, and I have no desire to seek them out.

It is also a thing that, to a certain degree, men don't understand. The don't understand that even if you're a confident, independent women, to a certain degree you interpret every interpersonal or environmental situation from a view of physical safety. Sometimes when I've talked to my guy friends about it, they are amazed.

I'm reminded of an episode of Six Feet Under, where a woman is walking down a street at night, and I group of guys start cat calling her. She walks faster, and they increase speed as well, trying vocally to get her to slow down or stop. She finally starts running and they chase her in earnest. When she stops in the middle of the street and they come into the light, she can see they are a group of her friends. As she starts to berate them, she's hit by a car, speeding. At the funeral home, her sister is crying, talking about the friends who chased the dead girl, and how they didn't understand why she ran from them in the first place.
Hey, sometimes, *I* don't even understand it. I find myself constantly unconsciously gauging my surroundings even when I feel safe because you never know. If somebody makes me feel funny, I listen to that little voice inside my head. If I hurt somebody's feelings then I feel a little bad, but better safe than sorry. AND I don't like to think of it as "feminine intuition", I think of it as my lizard brain smells something funky & doesn't like it.

I had another LADY cross the street on ME once. I'd walked up the mile & a half to the pizza joint to get a couple slices. I had on jeans, a tshirt, kicks & my ipod & was bopping along carrying my pizza box. She came out of a building about fifty feet ahead of me. We were locked in step; I have long legs, so I have long strides. Her legs were short & she was scurrying & she kept looking over her shoulder at me. I figured I was making her nervous, so I slowed down so she could gain some ground. I stopped & fiddled with my iPod. Which freaked her out even more & she promptly crossed the street to get away from me. I was utterly baffled. It wasn't very dark & I was quite obviously female & minding my own damned business. I'm not saying there is no such thing as f on f violence or assault, but I was just walking down the street with a big loony grin because I had the slices as a treat for dinner. But she perceived me as a threat & fight or flight kicked in. I didn't sweat it because, hey, I had pizza, but when I mentioned it to my neighbor he was like, "You're black. She ran because you're black & she thought you were going to mug her." That hadn't even popped into my head, but I really don't think that was it. She just didn't like somebody walking behind her where she couldn't see them. I get that way, but usually only with men/groups of men. I clock the time, my surroundings, if there are any other people around, if there's something I can use as a weapon, if there's an apartment lobby or house where I can ring the bell or buzz.

Which puts me in mind of Fugazi's "Suggestion".

Why can't I walk down a street free of suggestion?
Why can't I walk down a street free of suggestion?
Is my body the only trait in the eyes of men?
In the eyes of men

I've got some skin
That you want to look in
Well I've got some

There lays no reward in what you discover
You spent yourself, boy, watching me suffer
Suffer you words, suffer your eyes, suffer your hands
Suffer your interpretation of what it is to be a man

I've got some skin
That you want to look in
Well I've got some

She does nothing to deserve it
He only wants to observe it
We sit back like they taught us
We keep quiet like they taught us
He just wants to prove it
She does nothing to remove it
We don't want anyone to mind us
So we play the roles that they assigned us
She does nothing to conceal it
He touches her 'cause he wants to feel it
We blame her for being there

But we are all here
We are all GUILTY
I went to a bar the other night to hear a mutual friends band play, the people there were all at least a few years older than me. A group of men sat down at the table next to my friend and I (we're both 21, these guys were easily early 30's) My friend and I were just chatting while the band was setting up, I had a beer and she was drinking water. A few minutes after the guys got there the one sitting nearest to me turned and apologized that we had to sit next to a group of 'old married guys' and kind of looked at him funny and said we didn't mind. I thought it was a weird comment to make, but I honestly didn't care because I was just there to listen to music and spend some time with my friend. A few minutes pass and he says something along the same lines, at which point one of his friends said he wasn't sorry and I agreed saying he shouldn't be ashamed of being married, thinking maybe his buddy would get the point. Apparently not. A few minutes later he turns and asks if he can buy me and my friend a drink. I told him we were fine. But I couldn't believe it! You're married, I'm obviously not interested, what the heck? I don't think his buddy was too pleased either.

The worst part though was a few seconds afterward my friend leaned over and said she would have liked the drink. ?!?! I told her I would rather buy her one then let some skeezy married guy buy her one.
i may be shot down for making sweeping generalizations, but i think in my case, european men may feel even more entitled than americans to get away with shit like that. women's rights there have a little bit different flavor, or at least that has been my experience.
Oh, definitely, Mouse. DEFINITELY. Even Euro men in the states are ballsy. I think the more relaxed attitudes about sex prevalent outside of our puritanical American shores plays a big part, too.

When we went to Prague, I'd already experienced European nightlife & wasn't hungry for more. But we only had one set of keys to our flat & if I wanted to even go get a cup of coffee, it had to be organized between the two of us. On one of our first nights he hauled me to the Karlovy Lzně, supposedly the biggest dance club in Central Europe. Five floors of Euro excess. We tried to dance once, but I was squicked & we quickly moved on. I stuck with my friend like glue, I even waited outside the loo for him because I didn't like the skeezy-ness. While I waited I was accosted by three sweaty Frenchmen that I wanted nothing to do with. Thankfully I know "fuck off" in several languages. When it was time to leave, I hopped on the elevator & because he's a bit of a clueless dick, my friend took the stairs. After I hit the ground, we spent the next several blocks followed by a pack of grope-happy German party boys from the elevator that were trying to induce me to come to a "party" with them. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to a party with five, albeit hot, drunk sketchy German guys. Take me to your five on one Scheie party. No fucking thank you, I knew enough German to know those guys weren't cool.

Another night, our host tried to entice us into going to a live sex club called Big Sister where it's all about voyeurism. You pay, sign a waiver, you pick your chick or chicks or whatever, they give you a mask, & you're booming on the WWW. Our host was a frequent visitor which made me even more uncomfortable with him than I already was. We both shot that down quickly.

I got dragged to some hideous place in Amsterdam with live sex shows once & it was awful! Yes, I was high out of my gourd or I'd never have gone, & my friend's shitty boyfriend took advantage of that. He claimed his beer was off & sent me to fetch new ones with a special request. Yeah, the girl poured the beer with her snatch.
I agree, mouse. I don't know if it's women's rights having a different flavour though, or if it's because you're american. I hate saying it, but I really feel like there have been times (on the continent, it's never happened to me in the UK - the guys are TOO DAMN RESERVED - but I digress, that's another thread...) where I've been come on to way inappropriately, or groped, etc because someone heard my accent and thought I would put up with it - or maybe even like it. I've actually had guys I know from Europe say that American girls put up with more shit than European or British girls will. I know that's not true with the girls I know in the states, (including you all!) none of them would put up with that shit, but it does make me ponder that stereotype and how it came about......
It's so interesting, because my experience with foreign vs. North American guys is completely opposite! I find that when I'm approached by a European/African man, they are more forward, but less creepy - like they're telling me I'm beautiful because they want to say it, not because they think if they say it I'll fuck them.

Overall, in my experience, they have treated me with more respect and appreciation than their North American the point that I've developed a bit of a fetish about it - nothing gets me going like an accent! Just call me Wanda! laugh.gif
When I was at university in the UK, I was told time and time again that, basically, American gitls were 'easy'... always with a half-assed disclaimer that of course they didn't mean me... yeah right. To be fair this was over 10 years ago but that constantly heard stereotype used to piss me off no end.

I do agree with zoya though that UK men (and Irish men) are relatively reserved compared to both their US and continental counterparts. I've been reading all of your descriptions of being groped by strangers at clubs etc and I am appalled, because I haven't experienced anything like that since living over here (although I did therefore really notice groping attempts when I was in clubs on visits back to the US).
I'd agree that men in the UK tend to be a little more reserved, but I've been groped a few times in clubs - probably more times than I've been directly chatted up. European men seem more forward in terms of chatting up, but also relatively indiscriminate in who they'll hit on. However, in terms of persistance/entitlement, nothing quite beats men from the north of africa (at least in my experience), although american men can be quite... unpleasantly pushy too.
my experience has also been that while american men can be equally creepy and gross, all other men i have encountered have been worse. when i was in suriname we had a dance party for my birthday. i was living in the middle of the jungle in this shack with my fellow monkey researchers and our only connection to the outside world was this tiny eco-tourist destination on an island in the middle of the river. the island was inhabited solely by men who kept up the trails, the buildings, drove boats and took tourists out. it was just us (two girls) and an island of men. anyway, we had a dance party on the island for my birthday. i had a boyfriend on the island at the time, partly for fun and partly for protection. i was dancing with one of the other guys and he shoved his hand down the front of my jeans and groped my vagina. i was horrified and ran off the dance floor. when i told my boyfriend, he laughed at me. he thought i was being ridiculous. the whole attitude towards women and there bodies was completely different.

it is SO important to listen to that voice in your head that tells you to GTFO of a bad situation. you should always trust your instincts. nice guys won't typically approach women in a dark street or a parking garage.

the red light in amsterdam just made me sad. my friends dragged me down there after we'd eaten some mushrooms. big mistake. it twisted my perception of the world. i just felt like i was surrounded by bleary-eyed hordes of japanese businessmen who were sizing me up for the kill, and every man was emerging from an alley-way zipping up his pants and lighting a cigarette. i hate that we are made to feel like can't stand up for ourselves.

i could go on and on about this, but i don't want to derail any further. is there another thread that already exists that would be appropriate for this topic?
my experience is only based on travelling to france and italy. and while as geek pointed out, there is definitely more of an admiration of beauty of all types than there is in america (i find that american men are much more likely to point out/make fun of a woman's flaws), there's more entitlement. women's roles are still largely more traditional than they are here, and i think women tend to be seen as a "gift" to men rather than people too often.
Y'know, this is a largely dead thread for the most part, so I see no reason why we should take it elsewhere. There is a "dating foreign guys" thread that has maybe all of five posts in it, but meh. If nobody objects, I say we just keep on keepin' on until somebody has a bad date story & continue from there.

I've mostly had good experiences with African men. There was a group of foreign bankers that were mostly Nigerian that worked in the office building across the street from me. I like a well-groomed brotha in a sharp suit. Several of them pursued me & were polite, respectful, & genuinely nice. BUT. I have certain cultural biases that kept me from dating them, namely FGM & the general nature of Nigerian treatment of women. Women make up half of Nigeria's population, yet in the name of culture, history, religion, & tradition many Nigerian women are left in the dust. And they get their pussies cut on for no good reason other than male insecurity.

On American girls being "easy", there was an article from the Onion that made me laugh, albeit uneasily. I knew girls like this when I lived abroad & it always made me sad. They'd buy any bullshit line they were given in the name of a pretty face & a sexy accent.

The boyfriend I had in Ireland I pursued the fuck out of until I landed him. He was shy & sweet & reserved & I liked that about him. He took me home to meet his family & they liked me as well. It was nice being the black girlfriend of a black Irish boy where his parents thought I was totally cool. I could expound on a variety of topics & we had a grand time. I do sometimes wonder how Frances' life turned out.
I've found that as well - sub-saharan african men tend to be polite; the obnoxious ones were mediteranean north africa (Libya, Algeria, Egypt and so on), particularly the young men. A lot of their ideas about how to treat women - and what women were - came from western films and porn rather than contact with women who weren't their mothers or sisters. But they were bad with the catcalling and grabbing, conversationally they were ok, just expected you to be easy.

AP - I know a few american exchange students here who are like that; they're here to party and I don't think the lower legal drinking age helps (an - american - friend of mine said something like "American 21-year-olds in London act like British 18-year-olds"). Not all of them are that foolish, but enough are to keep the stereotype going.

I haven't dated many foreign men, but of the ones I have, they've all been jerks. To be honest, I think it had less to do with where they came from and more to do with their own jerkiness... but let's not put too fine a point on it.

Ziggy, the German guy: we met online, he said he was interested in me because I had good taste in music and I lived nearby. We e-mailed a few times, and he blathered on a lot in his e-mails about his ex-girlfriend, an American girl who he described as blonde, tan, athletic, extremely opinionated, with what I shall loosely term as a bimbo's sense of style (micro mini skirts, spaghetti strap tank tops and scary spike heels). I'm short, pale, round, brunette and stylish. Why Ziggy was talking to me is anyone's guess, but the second I heard him over the phone, I was gone. I love a German accent (damn you, Blixa Bargeld!), so after some phone calling back and forth, we agreed to meet. The first meeting was a little awkward, but I thought it went well overall, and Ziggy took a digital cam snap of us at the end of the date, which I thought was sweet. ...Then I didn't hear from him for several days afterwards, so I e-mailed him to see what was going on, and received a response saying that he wasn't interested in dating me again because he didn't find me attractive. Why he contacted me and agreed to meet in the first place, I'll never know. It wasn't like my looks were a mystery to him; he saw my picture with my dating profile. ...And the funny thing is, he really didn't know that much about music. I'm a big Bauhaus fan and mentioned them in my dating profile. Ziggy claimed he was a Bauhaus fan, too, and yet when I quoted a line from Lagartija Nick in one of my e-mails, he had no idea what I was talking about. I think he'd just heard the name and thought it was cool, being German and all. And what he did with that digi-cam pic, I'll never know. I just hope it didn't show up on some website, "Dogs I've Dated" or some shit like that.

Martin, the English guy: another one I met online, recently separated from his wife (although I didn't know how recently until our second date). I initially hadn't intended on dating him, since I try to stay away from separated men. But after several months of talking online and on the phone, his English accent finally got to me and I agreed to meet him. 10 minutes into our first meeting, Martin said, "well, I usually prefer blonde, beach volleyball types," which I took to mean slim, athletic, tan, bikini-ready. Again, I'm a pale, round brunette, which he'd seen in my profile pics. So what was the point? Well, apparently the point was proving to all his frat boy buddies (who I met on our second date) that he'd moved on from the wife and was screwing a new girlfriend. (Don't ask why I agreed to a second date; I was a sad, desperate biddy at the time.) Martin asked if he could introduce me to his buddies as his 'girlfriend,' and, stupidly, I didn't say no. And after his buds were gone and we were sitting on the couch, having a completely non-sexual conversation, he blurted out, "Do y'wanna fuck?" in his impeccable English accent. It struck me as so ridiculous, almost humorous in the moment, that I cracked up. But I stuck to my resolution to not mess around with a married man and told him no. After an awkward pause, I backed down and said perhaps we could fool around a little, with no sex. But the moment was over, the poor asshole's ego was bruised because I'd laughed, and he responded, in his impeccable English accent, "well, honestly, I don't find you that attractive, and I don't think it would be a good idea now." I seconded that emotion, grabbed my purse and left that limey behind.

The Argentinian guy: yet again, another online connection. Fortunately, I never met this one in person and I can't remember his name. After a spate of fun, flirtatious e-mails, he called me and instantly started pushing for a first meeting. I usually don't like to meet a guy in person until I've talked with him on the phone at least twice, which I told him, but he continued to push. I convinced him to cool his jets until we talked on the phone again, which he did for the next week. The next time we talked, the intention was to plan our first meeting. Since he lived an hour away from me, I suggested a halfway point between our respective neighborhoods, an outdoor shopping mall where we could sit, people-watch, drink coffee and talk. Under the guise of wanting a more 'original' destination than a shopping mall Starbucks, he tried to convince me to meet him in his neighborhood, which I didn't want to do. When I meet an online guy in person, I like to keep the first meeting place on neutral ground, which I explained to him, but he wouldn't take no for an answer. He proceeded to argue with me, using all his misguided 'machismo' in an attempt to convince me to do what he wanted. When challenged in an argument, I'll respond, but I should have let this one lie. Mr. Macho, apparently not used to being confronted by women, proceeded to insult my intelligence (literally; he said "don't be stupid"), and lifestyle choice to live as a single woman with two cats. I decided I didn't need to take his bullshit and hung up on him... only to have him call back 5 minutes later and continue to insult my intelligence, lifestyle and my apparent 'need to control' him. I hung up on him again, only to have him call back again...and the pattern repeated itself 5 more times. It escalated to the point that I told him to fuck off and if he called me again, I'd report his bullying tactics to the dating website and ask that his profile be removed. Whereupon he called me every foul name in the book before I could hang up on him... and then called back 2 hours later to apologize for flying off the handle. I reported him to the website (hey, I told him to not call me again), received a response that they'd 'investigate' the guy's profile, so I deleted my own profile and never used that dating website again. Now, I know not all Argentinian men are macho assholes, but this one certainly didn't do much for his countrymen to convince me otherwise.
when i was in the dominican, i remember going out with some of the ladies there and when men DIDN'T cat call to them, they would turn around a get pissed, as if to say, 'what, don't i look good enough for you?' it was a completely different dynamic. i loath that hissing sound that latin (and probably some afro-caribbean) make at you, that thssst sound. ugh, it sends shivers down my spine.

men certainly vary by culture in terms of their aggressiveness, but the sense of entitlement to women's bodies, the right to judge, criticize and touch them seems to be universal. as is this sense that women should somehow submit to it, always be nice, always gently deflect rather than giving them an elbow to the liver like AP. i have certainly felt like doing that before, but didn't because i was afraid of being accosted even further. it isn't healthy, but there is still that little voice in my head telling me not to make waves, not to be a bitch, to just laugh it all away, even when i'm very uncomfortable.

there is this scary mob mentality at clubs and concerts that keeps people from saying anything. i was at jazz fest last year, watching steel pulse and there was this girl in front of us, obviously fucked out of her mind on drugs. it had been raining, her shirt was soaking wet and completely see-through. she had no shoes and was happily frolicking in the mud. this group of creepy guys surrounded her, dirty dancing, licking her neck, groping her. everyone just stood back in horror but no one said anything. i kept thinking, 'where are her friends?' she appeared too fucked up to notice, care or do anything about what was happening. finally my friends and i moved in between her and the guys and tried to dance a protective circle around her. one of the guys was all pissed, 'what do you think you're doing?' he said. 'what the hell do you think you're doing? she is obviously too intoxicated to consent to anything on your mind, so why don't you just move on,' i said. they called us ugly bitches and moved on. incoherent dancing girl promptly passed out on the ground and we grabbed a medic to take her away. i can't help but wonder, what if no one had said anything, what if no one had stepped in. these guys could have easily kidnapped this girl and done god knows what to her. on the one hand, she should take some responsibility for herself and not get black-out wasted alone in a crowd of thousands of people, that is just common sense. however, those sleazy-sleazes need to take some personal responsibility and recognize her condition is not an excuse to take advantage of her. and what about everyone else in the crowd? other people we were just staring in shock, laughing at her.

as for guys in the club, i just keep thinking about that dane cook routine (he's not my favorite, but he has his moments) about going to the club, dancing with ladies, he says, 'hey, do you mind if i bang against you with my cock for awhile? my denim cock?' there is this awesome bar here in NOLA that has a dj every saturday night who plays old mo-town, disco, and funk hits, the best songs you've never heard of. i love it there because it is a huge dance party, minus the dry-humping and the inability to carry on a conversation with your friends. i don't think it is too much to ask of anyone, men or women, to be able to dance and have a good time without having sex with your clothes on with complete strangers. i'm not a prude, if getting fingered on the dance floor floats your boat, more power to you, but just because you like it doesn't mean anyone has a blank check to shove their digits up anyone's skirt. i just wish people in general had more respect for each other's bodies and didn't assume because of some ones level of intoxication, clothes, gender etc. that they could do whatever they wanted with them physically.

i remember watching an old dateline episode where they were exploring the use of GHB in clubs. they did two experiments, one of which they placed an actor in a crowded club. he would flirt with some girls and then buddy up with some random stranger guys at the bar. he would admit to those men that he was planning on putting drugs in the girls' drinks. while some guys walked away appalled, many of them cheered the actor on, gave him high-fives, told him to do 'whatever it takes,' and generally showed little to no surprise. not one, not a single one of the men tried to stop him. in fact, one of them men got his cell number so he could call him to get some GHB for himself, another man saw the actor and the drugged girl wander off down the beach and when the actor came back alone the man went looking for the drugged girl on the beach. he claimed after the airing of the show that he was trying to find her to help her home. yeah right. if he was really concerned for her safety maybe he should have told her BEFORE her drink was spiked, or called the police, or made a scene, or do ANYTHING to keep the situation from progressing.

long, rambling post.
the mob mentality and permissive attitudes toward date rape are frightening to say the least.

My experiences with foreign men... My freshman year of high school I became friends with a boy who had come from an all boys school in England to our private school in the U.S. He was very flirty and liked to talk about sex alot, past the point where I was comfortable. But my story is that a friend of his came to visit and my British friend more or less set me up with this guy, who proceeded to try to feel me up and then complain that "he thought I was an American slut" when I protested. So these boys school guys apparently thought that American girls were easy...wierd.

My freshman year of college I did a study abroad program in Italy for figure drawing and art history. We went to different cities ranging from rural to cosmopolitan. The worst by far was Rome. The rural Italian boys gave compliments profusely and tried to get us (the girls) drunk, then asked if we would "be lesbians" for them, but that was not so bad comparatively. In Rome, the men made clicking noises as we walked past, like they were calling a dog. And then they would yell at us when we walked away, making me glad that I speak no Italian. this mostly happened with guys who were in groups. One girl and I decided to go on a bar tour in Rome (seemed a good idea at the time) and we ended up very drunk at a huge dance club. Several guys felt me up on the dance floor and one tried to reach up my skirt, and when I didn't allow that he rubbed at my vag through my dress. Overall, very not cool. Luckily for us, some Australian art students (nice boys we had met previously) found us and took us home.

I don't know if they treat all women this way, or just Americans. It's strange. I have more, but I have to go. I'll probably post more later.
continued... The Italian guys were the worst, but I've also had catcalls from guys in Mexico, who then followed me around the marketplace when I ignored them. That was a little scary.

Positive experiences... The boys I met in Belgium, Germany, and the Netherlands were very nice and polite. Not only did they not catcall at me, but I didn't see any women being harassed (aside from the beggars-apparently a tradition in Brussels). Of course, being of Dutch heritage, I blend in like crazy in that part of the world, so my "American-ness" may not have been apparent.

I knew a guy from Brazil who was very sweet... I also had a friend from Kuwait (who was born Syrian-he felt that was important to point out every time someone asked where he was from) who was excessively polite.

I'm curious, busties from other countries (possibly Italy) do guys treat foreign women differently than locals? Americans, in particular?
interesting....well I never thought any of that mattered - where a guy is from, how he was socialized etc Until I dated a Chinese guy (& I'm VERY African)...let's just say it was ummm an intriguing social experiment tongue.gif I'm now with a west African & although there are some differences (cos I'm from the South), we get each other culturally (generally) and I think that's usually really underated. Experiences with other nationalities (German, American, Indian) kinda made me think that every man has his own like 'side fantasy' about women from some place or another, and it suks having to fit into that stereotype for him - don't get me wrong, I'm all for playing our part in yin yang globalization...but like some food, familiar and homemade is good for the soul (and African men are yummy
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