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anyone got advice/info about breastpumps? (and not spending a ridiculous amount of money)

i have a hungry 3-wk-old and i would like some sleep sometimes.



The great yawning chasm of work has been filled in, at least for an hour or two, so here I am... sorry to have been such a lurker this month - I try to at least pop in & keep up to date on shiners/tumors/teeth/mold...

First off, a big wet kiss & a cuddle to my bruiser of a future DIL... if it makes you feel any better, Mox, Tartlet got knocked flat by a dog last week & came up with a bloody nose & a fat lip. I was just relieved he didn't break a tooth...

Secondly, a kiss & a cuddle for Anoushh, too - I've been thinking about you a lot recently, and am sending not-Bob some serious sleepy vibes... Tartlet did the exact same compulsive rocking just before he got to crawling - as I remember, it was about 4-5 weeks before he got it out of his system. The only thing we found to circumvent it was to nurse him to a complete & dead sleep - heavy breathing, totally limp, somehow weighing a TON all of a sudden... I got a lot of reading/movies-with-subtitles-watching done during that period. Yeah, it was a PitA to be stuck in the chair all that time, but ultimately, I preferred that to playing jack-in-the-box trying to get him in his crib... And if it helps at all, I think not-Bob's sleep sounds pretty good. The babies that can be put down drowsy & sing themselves to sleep & not wake up til dawn are not a dime a dozen, no matter what parenting books/in-laws/total strangers on the bus will tell you. That's a skill that a babe has to learn, and has to have the temperament to accept. Tartlet was never a candidate for self-soothing sleep routines - he gets far too worked up, and absolutely cannot come down on his own yet - a fact that I'm only just now coming to terms with completely. That said, if I had it to do all over again, I'd make sure Tartman did more regular bedtimes on his own - I had a night out for the first time in months, and while it went well, all things considered, it was pretty stressful for both of them, and it would have been nice if they'd had more experience with each other, you know? /ramble

Daycare lady's on vacation this week, so it's the non-stop Carnival of Grandparents - a new set every day! Tartlet's being trucked to the park/zoo/playground all week long, and I think the activity is doing him good - he slept like a rock last night, and is much more giggly & cuddly... We came to the crashing realization the other day that he's bored. He's explored the house as much as he can, has our block of sidewalk memorized, the morning & afternoon routines are all but set in stone... commence random tantrums & flinging of toys & purposefully getting into off-limits areas. So we had a new infusion of toys this weekend (a very belated 1st birthday family cookout), and Tartman & I are starting to research new DCP options. The small, in-home setting has been great, but as he gets older, I think he needs more space & more kids to interact with. OMG. We no longer have a baby. We have a little boy. (insert gettin'-all-misty icon)

Hey, karcher, congratulations & welcome aboard! I used a manual Avent pump - the Isis, I believe it ran about $50... It was fine for me, because I planned on supplementing w/formula from the get-go - if you're planning on working FT & want to exclusively pump & nurse, I'd splash out on an electric... the manual pumps aren't very efficient, as a rule. Sleep, huh? Good luck with that wink.gif
tart, are you still BF at night? We're trying (read, I'm trying...moxieman will go with whatever i want to do) to figure out when to get moxette off nightime bottle. She's still doing 5am, and bedtime. Naps are now with a sippy previous to sleepytime. smile.gif (thanks daycare!) I just love the cuddles and quiet time so much, but she's starting to get demanding about the bottle, which is a really clear signal to me that its time for that part of our life to be DONE.

At any rate, the full day-care (like with classes) has so much interaction and activity for the toddler set. OUrs is run by our local school system, but my girlfriend at work has her son (he's 3 now, but has been at his daycare since infancy) at a church-based one (unity church), that does a lot of the same stuff. This week's theme is "Bears." So, each day, they do different "bear" related activities..."Brown Bear, Brown Bear" is the book of the week, and yesterday, the kids played with oatmeal during "small group" time. More or less, its like preschool for toddlers. We LOVE it. Dr. Brazelton (a.k.a. baby bible master) says that around 15 mos, toddlers benefit greatly from regular interaction with a big group of people their age. Seems to be the case here.

Yep, still nursing at bedtime... though honestly, it's 90% for comfort - my supply is waaaaay down, and he frequently pops up to get a drink of water before snuggling back to the boobie. It's the only time we nurse anymore, except for the increasingly rare mid-night wakeups & occasionally on weekends to seal a nap deal. If we were giving a bottle, I think I'd be more antsy to move on (cavities & whatnot), or if he weren't starting to show signs that he is ready to fall asleep not actually on the boob (he's been rutching around mid-nurse & crawling up on my shoulder & falling asleep there more & more)... I've read multiple places that the urge to suckle lasts well into toddlerhood, and considering he's moving away from bottles at DC & doesn't take a paci, I figure I'm the only place Tartlet gets that kind of comfort - makes it not seem so crucial to wean him just yet.

Thanks for the group DCP perspective - I'm pretty sold on it, but Tartman feels like the wee lad's only just getting settled after the move, so I think we'll wait til later in the summer before shaking things up again.

This week's Cute Toddler Trick - mimicking everything. A barking dog (oof oof!), a big truck (bumbum!), the microwave (dee!), Mama's goofy singing antics (oooahooooah!)...
Ok, I'm at work and trying to juggle it and the baby (who is here) but I have to say I REALLY hate a certain person at the swim class. I mean, I HAAAAAAAAAATE her.

On the other hand not-bob did great today. He's really getting into it.

*cute not-bob crying.*
Ok, the young man has decided he wants to sleep on his stomach, which is really freaking me out.

Words of wisdom, anyone?
let him sleep on his tummy. By 8 mos old, he's strong enough to turn over, and obviously IS, given that you probably put him down on his back. Welcome the tummy-sleep...they tend to zonk out better!
Oh heck yes, let him sleep on his stomach - as Mox says, the quality of sleep is so much better... Just use common sense - firm mattress, no superfluous blankets/stuffed toys/bumpers.

Work + baby = who needs a drink? blink.gif You're a better woman than I, Anoushh....
hello mommas , i thought i would pop in here and introduce my self. i have been hanging out in the pregnancy thread but am nearing my due date and although i am not a first time mom by any means (shinybiy is 10) and i have lots of baby experience since then (job), i am nervous as heck. sorta silly but i am. evne though i am much better equipt emotionaly, financially, etc than with shinyboy i feel like i am sooooo not ready to take care of a baby. so all that being said, i will be in here soon on a regular basis asking for lots of practical advice from you all.

blerb about self: married to wonderful husband who works like a mad man. 10 year old shinyboy who is still young enough to give me kisses and a truely sweet boy. not currently employed and have been going to school for a career change. (taking fall semester off though). live outside a tiny town far away from everything city.
Hi Shiny!

My god, this is hard work. How does any single parent do it?

The mister worked 29 hours in two days. That's fucked up. I've told him if he wants to give his notice any time, fine with me.
We'll see what he does. He's not arguing, but it's not his nature. On the other hand, a schedule like that means it's pretty hard to look for a new job. He'd have more time if he quit.

One more week to go before baby sitter is back....

Oh, and for now work daycare only open 8:30-12:30 M and Thurs. Monday is one of the days the mister has off, so not a day we really need it. Poo.

I miss my mamas.
i'm here! not much pics...

of moxette

Lots of play, lots of language...she likes quiche. Dreading ending the bottles...i love the cuddles and easy-ness of putting her down right now. I go back and forth on whether she's really ready...she's quite demanding all of a sudden for her ba-bas (language acqusition), but is still really very much in tune to our whole routine. Gonna switch one to water this weekend and see how it goes.

I love the ikea ones especially, for some reason.

oh, Ikea is a toddler paradise! Wide aisles, lots of families, good (cheap!) food in the cafe and a staff that ENCOURAGES jumping on the furniture! She really did enjoy herself. every time she got one of those bags, it was ON shopping! We had to race to keep up with her! It was quite a good time.

This morning has been rough so far. miss thing woke up early for a baba...then woke up again an hour later SCREAMING. Like horrible nightmare type screaming. I had to cuddle her for a solid 1/2 hour to get her to be quiet enough for some more crib time. And now, I was hoping she'd sleep in a little bit, but nope. Chit-chatting away. At least I'm still here...moxieman is in the shower and I'm dawdling before leaving for work.
Count us in on the goose-egg club... yet another faceplant on the sidewalk last night. No blood this time, thankfully, but a nasty lump in the middle of his forehead... DCP's gonna report us if this parade of bruises keeps up unsure.gif
A friend of mine went in for her then-2 year old's well baby visit. the boy is VERY active, and still quite clumsy. He had bruises all over his legs, shins, and a goose-egg. The dr. pronounced "This kid has bruises in all the RIGHT places". Just think of that.

Not bob is starting to join in the club. He can't figure out how to go forwards, but he can go backwards. And thus we start a whole new "reign of terror." And injuries.

But boy, was he happy to see Grandma home. As was I.
That's reassuring, Mox, thanks! Tartman & I are & were naturally very cautious, so Tartlet's devil-may-care attitude towards steps, large dogs & fast-moving older kids has caught us off-guard... not that I'm complaining, mind you - maybe Tartlet will actually learn how to ride a bike someday, unlike his chickensh*t mama rolleyes.gif

Good luck with the night-bottle weaning, Mox... maybe you could do the gradual watering-down trick? Isn't that how you cut the midnight ba-ba?

Yay for not Bob & his newfound mobility! Have fun, Anoushh - the only way we effectively babyproofed was to move house... blink.gif

Miss you guys, but work continues to eat my arse for lunch...
yeah, tomorrow, we start the morning bottle with water only. I strongly suspect its the cuddles she needs most, which I'm happy to provide into forever and ever. I'm readying myself for one very PISSED toddler tomorrow, 5am, though.

What is it with these kids and big dogs...or small dogs for that matter? moxette SCREAMS with glee anytime a dog goes by. We're pretty cautious about which dogs we let her get near (neighbors OK, random dog not OK). It makes me want a puppy even more. Sigh...

PS--where's Chani?

And I hope we see the new mamas in here soon. smile.gif
Cute!!! I love the baby bath pics!
i love the one with the towel on his head, anoushh.

mox, how did the water bottle go?

we're in a divey motel at the coast watching the ships come in and out. there's cable here (which we don't have) and we're letting the bean watch "50 best damn sports plays". here's his narrative:

"that guy is happy! that basketball! he's making a basket! that golf ball is far away! that guy looks worried [tiger woods, who always looks worried, IMO]. that golf ball's going in! baseball! that guy's gonna hit it! cherries! this is nice! this is a nice room! i want cherries! i wanna hit the baseball! this spoon is like a pink balloon! these blueberries are like a baseball!"

i think dogs are just the most accessible animals (cats run away). we went to the aquarium and saw the seals yesterday and the bean freaked out, especially when one seal clapped his flipper to get fish. ("that guy's clapping!")

it's an exciting and narrative world...
the water bottle is going suprisingly well. It proves my instinct that she really still wants (needs? 16 mos, is there much difference in this respect?) the sucking and cuddles. We have a long weekend coming up, so I think wedndesday will be the last water bottle day. Then, just cuddles...and we'll see how that goes...

Gren, sounds like your vaca is fun! The narratives crack me up!
Ok everyone-sitting down?

Slept. Through. The. Night.

That's right. First time ever. While I got up about half a dozen or more times to check on Notbob, he actually never needed my help in getting back to sleep. He was just sleeping peacefully. Until 7 am!!!!!!

I can hardly believe it myself. Of course, after the nights from hell we've been having we all deserve it, but still...

Of course, it won't happen tonight. But it was still pretty amazing.

"It's an exciting and narrative world..."

Hee. I love that.

I'm not surprised about the bottle at her age, mox. Of course, easy for me to say about someone else's kid. When we get there I'll be fearing the worst....
yeah sleeping!!!! Those nights will come more often for the next few months, I swear!

I think the bottle is so hard to wean from, b/c its so easy and not demanding on me or her at all. I LOVE baba and mama time. I'm nervous that she won't want to cuddle with me if the baba isn't there. Its so ME and not HER. If it were totally up to me, we wouldn't leave the bedtime baba behind until she's in the big-girl bed. But, we'll just have to come up with a new routine. I also really want her to be a "big girl" for a little while before we shoot for #2, as I'm convinced a 2 baby household isn't at all what i want. I admire Gren for being able to do it.
I admire anyone for even thinking about more than one....

Woo! Go notBob! Go notBob! We're having rockin' good sleeping over here, too - we had to go & wake him up this morning, or we'd have been late for school! And those bath pics - I could just chew on his cheeks all day...

Glad bedtime's going smoothly, Mox - I'm using a water-filled sippy to slowly cut down on Tartlet's bedtime nursing, and so far it's working pretty well. We're at about 5 minutes total nursing, down from 45 minutes a few months ago. It's amazing how quickly they transition, once they're really ready to.

My big thrill this weekend (besides a Date Day of Harry Potter filmage & all-you-can-eat sushi) was the sudden evolution of cuddling - I was treated to 2 separate, 15-minute cuddle sessions, neither of them triggered by nursing! It was teh awesome, I tell you.

Aaaand, our new word of the week: "FRUCK! FRUCKFRUCKFRUCK! OOOOO, FRUCK!"

That'd be TRUCK, son. Let's work on that diction, shall we? blink.gif
yeah, moxette now loves to name body parts. Or, rather, we name them, and she points. One day, she pointed to my breasts...ok, instead of "breasts," moxieman thought it'd be cute (like "baba" cute) to say "boobies." What's the one she can say now? yep, boobies. and, she likes to try and put my bra on. I can't wait to get a picture of that one! I keep telling her that although the women in our family are early bloomers, she does not need a bra and should just think about her bunny. Lol.
yeah, the bean once repeated after me "left boob! mama's left boob!" gah. and he loves to say "nipples!" he thinks that's the funniest thing ever.

the prospect of two is daunting, especially as we may or may not have a household to have them in (latest test results pending, humidity readings still too high, trying to find contractor who can fix humidity issue, trying not to tear all my hair out and scream at everyone). but i don't know about "two baby"'s amazing the difference between 18 months and not-quite-two; the bean is very verbal and articulate (the talking really got sophisticated in the last few months), runs around, is really interested in other kids ("miles is coming to the gym! we're gonna play tetherball! that big yellow tetherball is up high!"), etc. --- he doesn't seem like a baby anymore. i'm not sure if there's any easy time to have more than one kid (or to have one kid!), as now there's the problem of him running around frantically while i drag a newborn after him...his gym teacher (who has three teenagers or older) says it just gets MORE exhausting as they get older. saints preserve us. personally, i'm looking forward to getting through the diaper stage and being d-o-n-e with that, but i certainly understand people who want to stage the kids farther apart and do it one at a time. i'm just a "get it over with" kind of girl, i guess. but yeah, i think no matter how you slice it, two is more tiring than one. when i'm fifty and they're gone i'm going on a LONG vacation. till then, not so much.

but go, notbob, for sleeping! hurrah!
and go FRUCKS!
Yeah, I'm 50 in 9 years. It's a looong time until we get a long vacation.

And the mister was 50 last year....

I can certainly see not wanting to spread things out in a way that I couldn't understand before I had a baby.

And people keep telling me that about it getting more tiring. I'm not sure how that's possible....

My supervisor brought her two week old in yesterday. I was convinced he was smaller than notbob ever was, but it turns out they were the exact same length and weight at birth, and he's growing just fine. It's amazing how they grow. Cliche I know, but true.

ETA--he's already sleeping for 4 hours at a stretch! His "bad" sleeps are two hours. Notbob's were good=45mins-1 hour, bad=25 minutes. I'm so envious. She actually enjoying herself much of the time, in contrast to that period for me when I was absolutely miserable and convinced I'd made a HUGE mistake. Yeah, I'm envious.

Cuddling--nice! smile.gif And more good sleeping!!!!

If there was Olympic medal bouncing, notbob would be a shoe-in for the gold. He jumpsjumpsjumps for HOURS. Still can't crawl--just scoots backwards and gets frustrated, but he's as delighted as can be that he can (mostly--until he gets too excited or distracted and lets go) hold himself upright in the playpen. He's still got the hands and knees and rockrockrock back and forth down REALLY well, too.

I'm glad now we weren't in England for our previously planned July trip. blink.gif
Hope it clears by October.

Hmm--I hear a baby crying. And this time I don't think it's my imagination....
two WEEKS old and sleeping for a four-hour stretch? that's unusual.

i spent the first three months tearing my hair out and calling the mister at work to tell him i was going crazy RIGHT NOW and would not be responsible for my actions. the bean did sleep a three-four hour stretch at night during his major sleep period, but other than that it was touch and go all the time, with long crying phases at teatime.

as for the age thing...i'm convinced that we all have patterns in our lives as to how and when things happen. me, in life, i consistently seem like i'm never going to get it done, whatever it is (in terms of adult milestones -- finishing college, finishing grad school, getting married, having kids, getting a "real" job, etc.) and then, through a series of bizarrely improbable events, i end up finishing whatever it is at the same time as or earlier than my peers (most of my closest friends don't have kids yet, as most of my closest friends have spent their twenties in grad school/traveling the world/etc.). other people have different patterns (my best friend likes to mull and stew about whether he's going to do something for 4-5 years even though it's a foregone conclusion to the rest of the world; he has trouble taking that final leap, and that's where he is with kids right now, and he's a little bit older than me at 34, so i keep joking with him that he's going to be an old parent -- which is ridiculous because neither of us would have even CONSIDERED being "young" parents, in the sense of truly young, e.g. early twenties).
anyway, i find comfort in the consistency of that pattern in my life, which is why i embrace the fact that, knock wood, i'll be a relatively young mother of two grown children (which i never would have thought).

anoushh, it's great that your supervisor also has a baby/is a mom (makes for a more baby-friendly workplace). i still haven't even told my coworkers that i'm pregnant (ha ha! i ran into one yesterday at the store and he clearly didn't notice!), as i don't want that issue addressed in my tenure meetings.

meanwhile, i'm worried because of the high humidity readings in our house and the fact that, if the mold report comes back elevated, we'll have to move out again and find a way to have walls ripped out, etc. -- i am dreading the results as i just don't want to deal (at 7.5 mos pregnant!) with moving out, and i even more fear it won't be ready to move back in before the baby comes, and the bean had to go to urgent care yesterday because he was acting really sick and feverish and he turned out to have an ear infection, which is what he kept having last fall during the Reign of Mold/Pneumonia, and the ER doc wanted to give him a chest x-ray but i declined it because we had already been there four hours and he had two blood draws, one botched, and i was sick of watching him be tortured (he was hilarious, though; he didn't like the stethoscope or that ear light thing, so he kept trying to negotiate with the doctor, "put the light on mama's knee. listen to daddy! listen to mama's arm!") --- anyway, i'm busy recriminating with myself that i should have sucked it up and done the x-ray to see if his lungs were ok (she didn't think anything was wrong, just wanted to do it as a precaution).

i think the people who say it gets more tiring are the people who find having a baby "easy" and "relaxing" a lot of the time because they are fundamentally more relaxed than i am. i am an obsessive analyser and worrier, and i think childhood is going to be much more relaxing for me than infant/toddlerhood because i'll have to spend less time decoding/protecting/"managing" basic things like sleep and food needs. but i know some people who are like, "yeah! having a baby is no probs, dude! it's just sleepy and then you change it" rather than having to pick away at every little thing the way i do.
(to be fair to me, i bet it takes those people a lot longer to figure out if their kid has an ear infection or food allergies. the bean doesn't even vaguely give it away when he has an ear infection and was "amazingly composed" according to the nurses, but i knew something was wrong. it's just at high cost to me that i know these things...)
I know it's unusual, but I kind of hate her. In a totally unreasonable way, of course. (Of course it's unreasonable. What I mean really is that I'm aware it's unreasonable.)

It's still hard for me not to compare myself to other parents and then be very self critical b/c I found it all so amazingly difficult (and still do in many ways) when they seem to be coping just fine. I suppose that was one of the most valuable bits about the infants group we joined at Birth to Three--it provided a constant reminder that most people were having the same feelings I was/am. And my mom keeps reminding me that I had a significant medical complication to recover from as well. (And I'm still paying off the gyno visit for the trigger point injection. I'm so furious with our health care system it's a wonder I don't explode.) I'm realizing now how much I minimized that and how bad it really was. I mean, I knew it was bad, but I felt like I "shouldn't" be, I don't know, too self-pitying or something about it.

And notbob is just amazingly energetic and BUSY. Part of me was really sure I'd have a low key kind of kid (like I was.) Nope. Not in the least. I know babies have a lot of energy, but he NEVER IS STILL.

He's also been having what seem like baby "night terrors" again. He had them in the past, but they subsided for a while. I posted about this a few months ago here and the suggestion was perhaps teething--which I was convinced was on target, but now at 9 months (today!) still no teeth (which is fine--I love the toothless grin.) Anyway, it stopped for a while but now is back. He'll wake up sobbing the saddest sound you've ever heard, and it's very, very hard to comfort him. I don't even think he's really awake. It happens in the earlier part of the night.

As of a few days ago he'd mastered getting himself into a sitting position and as of yesterday he definitely has the crawling forward thing down. He's pretty darn happy about that. He's been pretty darn happy overall the last few days (except when I'm trying to put him to bed, when he FIGHTS me all the way).

Geez, gren. I had a lot of problems during my pregnancy (the worst being the incredibly shoddy british dental work catching up with me, and moving countries to live with my parents wasn't exactly a bed of roses either, though moving back to this city was, in large part, good) but the mold thing REALLY bites. At least I could have my tooth pulled and be done with it.

Interesting thoughts about the relative "ease" of various stages of parenting. I hadn't put it into such coherent thought before, but that makes a lot of sense. I've had a sneaking suspicion that for me it won't be harder, but easier (at least in some ways.) I totally cannot understand that "babies are easy" attitude, though I know some people have it. (In contrast I kept hearing a former coworker's voice in my head saying "all babies are psychotic" when he was tiny. In my former job we did a lot of work with attachment theory and therefore infant emotional development. That thought isn't so scary as it sounds, but it wasn't a helpful thought at the time as I kept feeling it as "I can't understand how he's feeling so I can't make him feel ok again" or something like that.)

One of the things that's been hardest for me has been the complete dependence of another person on me. When he needed to be held all the time it just about drove me crazy, in part I suppose b/c physically sitting was just so damned uncomfortable for so damned long, which meant every time he wanted feeding or holding (which is most of the time, of course, with a newborn) it just was physically painful, not to mention how exhausted I was.

Ok, I really, really, really need to get back to work.

you hate your boss? because she's one of the relaxed people or...?

thought y'all might enjoy this conversation:

bean: "i want to put poop on the wall."
me: :???
bean: "i want to put poop on mama."
me: "we put poop in the toilet."
bean: "ichiro is hitting the ball with a bat. he's playing baseball. i can't reach him."

Nice that he discussed it with you before trying it out!


I hate--in the sense that I'm envious--that she's having such a relatively easy time of it. That's what I meant.

Not-bob is also FIGHTING with me to avoid going to sleep. He pushes his way off my lap so he can stand and gets furious when I stop him. I do, of course, but whatever variation we try--putting him in the crib, holding him, etc, etc, etc--he fights sleep to the bitter end. Usually the first nap of the day is ok, but after that it's like war in his mind.

He's a remarkably happy boy otherwise, but between the nightmares or whatever they are and the fighting sleep he's got me worn out. Not to mention the demands of motherhood in general.
Annoush, there is a lull between 10-12 months, I promise. And, in our case, moxette has gotten much "easier" now that she can walk and has mastered the point-and-grunt. less frustrated baby=less pissy baby=more pleasant mama&daddy.

I mean, I knew it was bad, but I felt like I "shouldn't" be, I don't know, too self-pitying or something about it.

You couldn't have said it better! I still feel like I shouldn't actualize the horrific nature of moxette's labor and delivery, or the hardships I had during the pregnancy. But, with complications, a challenging birth and hard recovery, these are things that fundamentally form one's initial attitudes toward parenting. They were, about 98% of the reason I didn't breastfeed, and about 100% of the reason I have never felt guilty for that.

I was a bit confused about the psycotic baby thing... was your research showing that attachment parenting is good or bAD? Or neither? I suspect its neither.
Attachment theory is different from attachment parenting.

And in tired mama mode I can't explain it well at all. Basically though, normal cause and effect don't exist for a baby. They think and relate in terms that in an adult would be psychotic, but in a baby are perfectly normal.

Also, when they feel upset, they are so of the moment that they think it will always be that way--until they feel better.

We worked a lot with the theories of Melanie Klein (who, after getting to know her work better didn't sound half as bonkers as she'd sounded in my brief grad school exposure) and Donald Winnicott.

These aren't so in vogue in this country as in the UK (Klein was Austrian, but later moved to the UK; Winnicott was British) so none of my teachers really understood them either. My "teaching" on Klein was basically "Good breast/bad breast--yeah, I don't really get it either...") Attachment theory is something that John Bowlby, who is better known here, did pioneering work in, and I think it's fascinating stuff. They overlap, as these kinds of things do, but they are all about early childhood emotional development.

The problem was I was projecting my fears and worries onto the baby that his experience of the world was that it was terrifying (as it might be for an adult to be in that state) rather than normal for a baby. Not that it doesn't have it's moments of terror, but I guess I really doubted my ability to make a difference in a positive way for him.

In fact, here's something from wikipedia re: Winnicott's theories:

Early development

According to Winnicott, a newborn child exists in a stream of unintegrated, comfortably unconnected moments. This existence is pleasant and not terrifying for the child. According to Winnicott these early experiences are crucial to a proper development of personhood. The person responsible, according to Winnicott, for providing this framework is the mother, and if this environment is not provided by her, the deficiencies will manifest themselves later in the child’s life. The infant progressively develops from a unintegrated drift into being able to distinctly identify objects in his/her surroundings.

(I love Winnicott's theories.)

these are things that fundamentally form one's initial attitudes toward parenting.

Yep, that's it. And I guess I kept thinking how miserable I was made me a bad mother. I have a bit more perspective now, but it's still hard.

And I should say again here that you guys were invaluable at that early time. Now too, but really, you saved my sanity then when I was really, really struggling and scared to death.

Thanks doesn't seem like enough, but it's all I've got at the moment. So really, thanks again.
oh, anoushh. you're not alone -- as you know. though i know how easy it is to feel that way.

i often think that many adults also think that their distress/pain/etc. will never end while they're experiencing it. certainly the mister is that way! me, i get through wisdom teeth and baby crying the same way: by chanting to myself: this will be over, this will be over, this will be over, and when it is i won't even care. (you could say i get through LIFE that way; on my worse days, it's true.)

i see what you mean about your boss. my personal coping mechanism for envy of those who have what i don't is by reminding myself that they have their defeats and limitations in other areas that i probably don't even want to know about...

and mox, i know what you mean about actualizing...but for me, articulating the intense frustration/pain/difficulty of my labor and my midwives' various fuckups (sorry, but time to call a spade a spade) has really helped me feel empowered to not repeat the avoidable parts of that experience (to the intense ire of my midwife mother-in-law, who is APPALLED that i said at the family reunion, "personally, i just don't see the point in home birth. there are no advantages to the experience." --- note: i meant FOR ME, HAVING ALREADY TRIED IT, not in general and for all people).
yeah, i've got my annual exam in 2 weeks, and i think i may call ahead to see if i can get a little extra time to discuss my labor/birthing experience. Last year, i didn't even think to ask or question it. before we decide to do it again, i want to be a bit more knowledgeable about what my doctors would expect for a repeat c-section, perspective gestational diabetes, etc. if i don't get satisfactory answers, well...i live on a city block where my 3 consecutive neighbors are knocked up or have very recently given birth...and my best friend at work is due in october. i'm just saying that questioning a bad experience's reasons is a worthwhile and necessary endeavor. i think part of my down-playing the reality of it is the fact that i'm surrounded by first-time pregnant ladies...and i don't want to seem like the "horror story" woman. Y'all know her, right? The one who had 4 days of induced labor, then a c-section...oh, wait...I AM the horror story lady. wink.gif

moxette mowed on cheesey potatoes at dinner...i swear if i put ketchup or cheese near anything she doesn't normally like, it suddenly becomes the nectar of the gods! And, she's started whole sentence babble. To her bunny. And to herself. I LOVE it. And, we got 2 full blown tantrums b/c we had to leave for errands (i even did the timer thing) and she really wanted to COLOR, NOW, and the other when she bit me and I told her NO. Tough titties kiddo. She did go to sleep like a champ, tho. I think she bit me b/c she was frustrated when i told her she needed a diaper before getting a bedtime baba...she was crying into my shoulder, then CHOMP. All was forgiven by the time bunny, blankie and baba came around. Silly babies.

So Gren, are you doing a midwife in a hospital, or a straight-up doctor/hosp. birth with the wee lassie?
that sounds like a very good idea, mox. definitely good to know what to expect and not have that trauma the second time. i'd do the same if i had any time BEFORE actually being pregnant to get the details sorted out. but since we all know such is not my fate...i'm sorting a-go-go.

i'm doing a midwife in hospital thing, more because the insurance we have and the hospital we ended up at last time has a bunch of midwives than because i particularly choose that option. there will probably be a doctor there at some point too, and i'm fine with that. i won't know any of them personally before i'm giving birth with them, which is fine (maybe preferable, for me, as much as people are going to think i'm a stone cold zombie for saying so). it's a nice place with a nice birthing wing, labor pools, midwives de facto unless you need a doctor, certified breastfeeding-friendly (meaning they give everyone lactation consultants and don't shove formula samples in your bag like many hospitals do), etc.
although i have to say that i just visited the OTHER hospital in my plan (the one KNOWN for its high rate of c-section/induction) due to its having the high-tech perinatology unit, and i kind of wish i were going there just because it has much better decor. seriously. so much prettier. and also in a nicer neighborhood. but probably not worth it, all in all, to switch just to be shallow...

not to imply anything (and i don't know/remember the details of your induction, mox), but SO MANY people i know keep getting induced/have been induced. and i wonder how many of those inductions are really necessary. my good friend was induced because she had gestational diabetes and they were worried about the baby being too big, blah blah, but he wasn't THAT big and i wonder just how much more weight he would have gained. and she could not stop talking about how the pitocin made labor more painful and therefore her labor was worse than EVERYONE ELSE'S which, if it's true (and how could you know, since you can't do both things) doesn't sound like a walk in the park to me. and a couple of other people i know were induced solely for reasons of dates (you're late, let's go), which just seems a bit...reactionary to me. i mean, i know if i went past my due date i'd be chomping at the bit for the baby to get OUT already, but in the absence of other symptoms/factors and with the knowledge that due dates are approximate, i don't know about induction.

i am really hoping for a nice short labor and a trauma-free, healthy birth. if i could not tear, too, that would be just peachy (but i'm not getting my hopes up on that one). my sister had a four-hour labor her first time.* i'll take that. gives you enough time to get there and check in, not so much time that you want to chew your own arm off.

*she was also ten days past her due date and would have been likely induced had she had conventional hmo/hospital care.
Yeah, its not the idea of having been induced. We toyed with that for 2 full weeks (i.e. at 2 subsequent doc appts) before scheduling it. I had gestational diabetes, but moxette was measuring at tyhe 50th, so that had nothing to do with the induction. At week 37, i was "borderline" low amniotic fluid, which created unususal decels in moxette's heart-rate. By week 39, I was definitly low, but not really dangerously low (like if "10" is low, I was a 7.8). After the first 2 days of induction, my doc more or less said "well, clearly your body didn't take the pitocin this time. Go home, rest until Monday, come to the office, and we'll see where things are." We had decided to ust monitor me more closely and let nature take its course. Monday, 3pm, at doc's. All was fine on the monitor with the heart, movement, etc. But the US showed a very dangerously low level of fluids (like 4.something). I went straight to the hosp. THAT is the point where i want to pick up the discussion. LIke, after seeing how I reacted the week before, why try inducing again? My practice has the lowest C-section rate in the hospital, clearly...they believe strongly that c-sections are a LAST resort. I question, though, the humanity of being induced for 4 days (ok, 3.5 really), and putting mind and body through that stress just to prove some point. And, I'm deadly serious about not wanting a VBAC. I'm done with labor...if i went into labor on my own, fine...i'm still having a c-section.

Generally, had I known what a huge pain in the ass it was, i probably wouldn't have consented to being induced at the beginning of week 39. when things got "dangerous," though it wouldn't have even been a question. I'll see what the doc has to say on the whole subject and report back. I do think they took good care of me, especially dealing with my nutters tendencies regarding the diabetes testing. So, we'll see.

ETA: So, i made the executive descision to not give moxette a bottle at 6:45 this morning, when she woke up. MAN was she PISSED. I held firm, held her firmer, and we both made it ok. I';m hoping with a couple of days of this, she;ll be OK with cuddles and then back to sleep. 6:45 AM is too early for her to be "up," and the baba generally bought us an extra 45 min-hour of sleep. Hopefully she won't be too bad of a crabpants at school... if it sucks tomorrow and thursday, i may give it up and go back to water in a baba...we may or may not be really ready for this.
ouch, mox! it definitely sounds like induction was not kind to you. and i would be worried about the fluid levels too, in your place. certainly any danger to the baby would be the fastest motivator toward going "ok! take it out now! operate!" that's scary.
there is always the chance, though, that you wouldn't need induction the second time -- or potentially even have time for it. i can totally understand just wanting a scheduled c-section after going through that, but as any woman who's gone into hard labour early (like my mom, with me, a month early) can tell you, you don't always have the choice. if the baby's crowning when you show up at the hospital, they just do the best they can with that (and this is why it's scary that c-section is the only recourse in many doctors' training for breech births; women do present in advanced labour with breech babies, and somebody has to deliver them!).
of course, the odds are a scheduled c would work out just fine, but i think in cases like this where you've already had to suffer so much it's good to be prepared for that small possibility that things might not go as planned. me, i'm VERY much hoping that my second labour will be short and will not involve my continuously vomiting (or at least will be short enough that i won't become so dehydrated i go into shock, the baby goes into distress, and i need IVs and oxygen to deal), but, could be worse this time, and i'm trying not to deny that possibility totally. i'm trying to accept that i can't completely control this experience, even though i feel good about having chosen a plan that avoids a lot of the crap i had to deal with the first time.
but there's always new crap...

back to what anoushh was saying: so MANY mothers i know live in a constant state of complaint, anxiety, distress, and recrimination about child-rearing. it's so easy to, and there's so much societal pressure (i loved the recent nyt article about how everything is still mom's fault, which cited dina lohan as a "scapegoat") on mothers in particular. and as someone with non-standard work hours, i think it's really interesting how the assumption is ALWAYS that my husband supports me (and that's still so common) and i don't work (the other moms are always shocked when i say my husband doesn't work, he's in school, and i can just SEE them wondering if we have trust funds - ha!), yet i also don't think that spending 9 hours a day in an office should be the only way to be a mother without being a june cleaver clone.
if i learned ANYTHING from my delivery experience, its to expect the unexpected. A good birth delivers 2 healthy patients. I am concerned for a close friend who is totally dedicated to her PLAN...come hell or high water. My cousin's wife, with their 2nd (planned C-section) went into labor 3 weeks early, and was still decidedly against a VBAC, but was progressing so quickly that they had to actually put her totally under. Birth is a messy, unique experience each time it occurs.
QUOTE(moxiegirl @ Jul 31 2007, 05:58 PM) *
if i learned ANYTHING from my delivery experience, its to expect the unexpected.

Birth is a messy, unique experience each time it occurs.

I think that's the best advice there is about childbirth.

I thought I was prepared for any eventuality but in fact had not prepared for a precipitous labor (and gren, you don't want it to be too fast--especially if you want to avoid tearing! But I know what you were saying.) So guess what I had?

So much more I'd like to say, but I have a ton of work and so little time. With luck I'll be able to get back later and say some of it.

But just a quickie--not bob went for his 9 month visit today. To my surprise he is under 25 lbs. Only a few ounces, mind you, but still less than I thought. He demonstrated his bouncing for the ped. Since there were no vaccinations, I think he actually enjoyed the visit.
of course i don't want it to be too fast. i want it to be exactly as long as it takes for me to get to the hospital, get my mom there to take care of the bean, and have a nice cool drink of water.

good for notbob--- bouncing is good. enjoying the doctor is good (the bean was all amped up to "go to the doctor! go to the doctor! until we went and he had two blood draws and a thorough ear exam." but afterwards he seemed to process okay --"those people who take the blood are trying to help you!" -- which is good, as there's a 2-year checkup next week).


NO MOLD. air tests, back today, show less than in the control (outside). so we don't have to move. we're now talking to drainage contractors, etc. to make sure the problem won't come back. it shouldn't be thrilling, but it totally is, esp. since the bean's sickness made me paranoid.

it's funny about birth plans. i had a detailed one, with provisions for hospital contingencies, etc., the first time. this time i don't even feel like bothering (so convinced am i that it's totally random...).

It should too be totally thrilling!!!

That' must be such a relief.

Notbob's labor was very fast, especially for a first baby. In hindsight I think it totally reflects his personality. I do think that a very fast labor would be less scary the second time around, when you had more of an idea what to expect. I thought I was just starting labor, and kept thinking "I can't do this for who knows how many hours" when in fact I was pretty much in transition within an hour and half of realizing I was in labor.

Anyway, I'm totally thrilled with the no mold situation. About time!

No MOLD!!! WHOOOOO HOOOOOOO! (puts on geeky consultant hat)...are they reccomending periodic testing to make sure its not coming back? you WILL be getting some sort of written report, ya?

Ok, working at home today...which means I need to work.

Moxette isn't awake yet...which means another day with no baba! Maybe the drama of yesterday settled the issue? Y'a think? I am going to miss our morning cuddles (which is often the only time i have with her before the workday begins) quite a bit.
hurrah for no baba (and no morning restraint necessary)!

yeah, i got a complete written report (they email it in pdf, but she called because she knew i was freaking out and, i think, because she wanted to call and give me some GOOD news for once). the total count of aspergillus/penicillium was 3, half the control and down from 30k before. the total count of mycelium fragments was zero, the control was 3 and it's down from 11 before. they seemed to think that the counts being so low was pretty good evidence that it's NOT growing in the walls, but was just residual (what they call stage 2, "settled spores") after our remediation before, but we're going to re-test after the rainy season. meanwhile, sleazy renter (in the downstairs apt of our house, which is a duplex) is moving out, and we're going to take the opportunity to give that place the complete mold treatment (microban, hepa vacuuming, hepa filtering) just in case there are errant spores down there (there has never, to my knowledge, been actual mold in the apt). whew. this house is gonna be hella antiseptic.

i cannot TELL you people how relieved i am. i feel like now i can go back to being a normal person with too much to do, a baby to have, and plenty of stress in my life instead of being in perpetual flight mode.

also, i decided that i should have an outlet for my crazy stress (you know those stress indices where they list "high-stress events" like moving, new baby, loss of job, new job, loss of significant relationship, etc.? every one of those has happened to me in the last 2.5 years), so last night i had my first appointment at the local university's counseling clinic. i've always been dubious about counseling, to the point where i almost didn't go, but it's fifteen bucks and i felt much relieved after 1)having a couple of hours off, 2)eating a double-scoop ice-cream cone on the way there, and 3)talking about the various stressors in my life, notably my crazy sister, who's back in town.

i then realised that just having to leave the house, have two hours 'off duty' (which i never get), and eat ice cream (*okay, i don't HAVE to eat ice cream, but it's on the way!) was worth both the time commitment and the fifteen bucks. are you listening, stressed mamas?

today we have our final visit to a parent-run coop daycare where the kids go three times/week and parents go once. i'm hopeful that we'll get the interview and get in, as having 2 mornings a week off would be good, the bean really likes it, and it tires him out (and toddlerhood is tiring!). meanwhile, he just woke up plaintively moaning, "a big one! a big one! a big one!"
so i think i'm off...

ETA: he was actually saying "a big corn." he wants corn on the cob.
morning quote:
bean: "The big white moon is up high!"
(which it is, a gibbous moon in the west)
bean: "I better sit on it!"
Guess who's got a tooth!?

Got to take a shower quick before he wakes up, but that sure explains last night.

I'm going to miss that gummy smile, though.

So, this morning was a rough one...definitely needed the baba. So goes life. I think there's a couple of toofies close to the surface causing commotion.
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