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Full Version: Becoming healthy (or, "When did my bottom get so big?")
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Octi, also check out Swanson's vegetarian/vegan whole foods blog, complete with great photos, really great recipes for which she includes the flexible suggestions (you can substitute this and that to make this recipe vegan instead of vegetarian, etc. etc.).
Tons of beautiful food ideas there and it's interactive, too--there is room for comments and information exchange.
I lost 8 pounds!!! Whoo-hoo! At this rate I'll be able to fit into my old jeans soon!

i don't feel hungry anymore and my brain fog seems to be lifting; I feel like I'm less depressed, I don't know if this is due to my food choices or not. I have been eating really good foods, and tomorrow I'm trying my new recipe for a fruit omelette: it has raspberries and ricotta cheese in the middle. I'm also going to make coconut cream coffee! I hope it's good.
hi is it even possible to lose inches but not weight? good news - i've lost 3inches from my waist and 4 from my thighes. bad news - the scale has gone up, and i'm not down to a lower size in clothes.
i think it's physically impossible to weigh a higher amount yet wear a smaller size.
P_176, when you work out and the scales go up, it is because you are replacing fat with muscle mass, so there is a time when you will have both and the result is the scales going up. You will see your weight decrease. You are clearly seeing result in terms of loosing inches, and body fat. Congratulations! Keep it up and don't be put off by a number.
i know you think i'm too tied to a number, but since i'm not fitting into smaller clothes, i think something is wrong. again, it's physically impossible to weigh a higher amount yet wear a smaller size. i need to lose weight -have the scale numbers decrease. gaining muscle hinders that :-/
P_176, keep in mind that when you have muscle it burns more fat than, well fat. You WANT to have muscle. It's very good for your body.

It is possible to have weight go up and size to go down. Again, because the muscle is replacing body fat, and muscle takes up far less space than fat does.
anna k
chachaheels, I took your advice on getting New Chapter Everywoman and a digestive supplement, as the store I went to didn't have any tissue salts. I'm going to try a different store today.

I don't know why I get bloated easily. I can understand when it happens around my period, but not when I get that "bloaty, crappy" feeling. I can feel slimmer and great for a couple of weeks, then my body changes around period time, and won't bounce back to how I felt before. So this could be really helpful. It also helped when I followed a detox diet, as I felt slimmer and was told that I looked like I dropped a lot of weight. I exercise about 2-3 times a week, mostly doing weight training, dancing, and Pilates, and usually eat things like grilled chicken, trail mix, wheat wraps to put chicken and tofu in, organic eggs, almond milk, fruit, and other healthy things like that. It doesn't help that I have soft muscle tone and can feel very soft easily, so I work hard to be as fit as I can be and to have a healthy diet.

culturehandy, I agree. I've lost some fat since I've started going to the gym, but I feel a lot of muscle in my quads and biceps, and can feel my ab muscles as well. I haven't weighed myself because I don't feel like I've lost a lot of pounds, but I've been told by many people how much weight I've lost. It's more due to losing fat and gaining muscle, having an hourglass shape, or, as my instructor said, "a cute little shapely body."
but.....there's a finite amount weight can go up and inches go down - at some point, it stops. bottom line, even losing inches, since the weight is either not changing or even going up, i'm still very overweight. i don't see how a person could weigh, say, 140 and be a size 4. i remember on the biggest loser, they were trying to say that this one girl (about my size and height) weighed 160 and was a size 8 or 10, and i was like, there's no way that's possible.
p_176, it's not quite the same but at one point I weighed about 165 and I was a 12/14 so I think it is possible.

I've been thinking about all of the healthy stuff that I want to start eating. I'm back home right now and I just tend to eat worse while here. In addition to that, I'm on my period and I have never felt so constantly hungry before. I don't know what the deal is, it's usually not this bad. It's really discouraging because I'll eat and then two hours later I feel like I need another meal.

so, what are your suggestions for losing weight? is it just that i should gain muscle? that's not helping me lose weight. i've done the trainer thing, i've done the nutritionist thing, i had my metabolism measured, i'm eating healthy balanced meals regularly, and i'm exercising every day. and, i'm still obese. what gives?? according to everything i've learned over the last several months about weight loss and healthy eating and eating the proper amount for your body, i should have lost a dress size or more by now. instead, i've gained that amount.
p_176, when I weigh 140 I fit into a 7/8, in fact. When I'm 130 or so, I can get into a 5/6. Also mystifying: my shoe size, at my current weight, allows me to wear anything from a 7 and a half to a 10, depending on the type of shoe we're talking about. All the widths, however, are the same. When I'm smaller I rarely go over a size 9 in shoes. There isn't a lot of fat on your feet, by the way, but when you lose weight on your body it comes off everywhere.

Sizes are arbitrary, but there is a kind of "understood" standard, and cut makes an infinite difference as well. On the other hand, the shape of your body will make a bigger difference on the size than your weight ever will. I'm five foot nine and my bones are medium/small, but they're longish. Even at 150 and 160, I'm still about a size 10. At my current weight I'm in a 16 or 18 now, though if I were to tell you my weight you'd think I need a much bigger size.

I am a little shocked your nutritionist hasn't explained the whole weight gain from muscle mass/weight loss from muscle mass facts to you. Your weight can in fact increase dramatically while your size diminishes. Greater muscle mass accumulation not only makes you thinner despite the increase in weight (muscle weighs more than fat), it actually becomes the way your metabolism increases, as muscle needs to use more energy to sustain itself.

Stop fixating on the numbers. If you really think you're not losing inches and you're measuring every week or so, plus you are maintaining your nutritional commitments as to the right kinds of foods to eat and a sufficient amount of foods, then it's very probable you are not "obese" from overeating (the vast majority of people who are termed "obese" aren't that way from overeating, just so you know). You should make enquiries about finding an endocrinologist to work with, to rule out the possibility of any hormonal disorders or disease as a cause of your weight gain. Make sure you find one who is up to date and very skilled in diagnosis--you want to rule out polycystic ovaries, Cushing's Disease, hypothyroidism, Graves, Hashimoto's...just to start. It helps if your endocrinologist can take samples not only of your blood to test for hormone levels, but also of your saliva.

Personally, if you haven't replaced your nutritionist I'd advise you to do that first; and to be very picky about who you choose next. Anyone who hands you a starvation diet as your treatment should be ruled out as a candidate immediately. Any fool who is out there still chanting that you have to take in fewer calories than you burn off as the "cure" for
"obesity" is dangerous, and I don't care what credentials they've got listed after their name.

Hihi there!

I'm starting a new three stage health regimen. Actually, I started about a week and a half ago.

First, I went back to being a vegetarian. I not only want to stay away from meat, but I want to eat waaay more veggies.

Second, I already walk to work everyday. It's about 15 minutes each way. I'm moving to a less convenient neighborhood soon, and I am going to start riding my bike more. I have decided that next month I am going to enroll in a capoeira school. I was going to join the gym, but I *know* myself, and I might not ever feel motivated to go. With capoeira, I think I would feel compelled to go to class because people would miss me if I didn't show up, and I would fall behind as well.

Third, I am quitting smoking. Ugh. I hate that I smoke.

Anyway, I've decided to make these changes for better health, but it wouldn't be all that bad if I lost some weight as well. I noticed that sometime in the past rwo years, I have gained around 30 pounds.

I take medications that are notorious for weight gain, but I always thought I had it under control. Guess not.

The reason I'm posting is for support and to exchange ideas.

Has anyone here experienced weight gain from meds or other medical reasons? I wonder if it is even more difficult to take it off when it is caused by these things.

P_176, I'm with Chacha. I know you say you don't focus on the number on the scale but I think you have to stop focusing soooo much on all your numbers. I find when I concentrate on that kind of stuff it makes it 10 times harder to get healthy or lose weight and I get frustrated and give up. This summer I've been busy enough that my exercise is bike riding to work and it's worked out well. I'm so busy with work that I don't have time to think about how I look, but I still get my exercise everyday and I'm still eating well. I haven't stepped on the scale in a few weeks but the other day I just suddenly realized that I've shrunk a little without even thinking about it.
puppykitty, two years ago I gained 20 pounds because I was put on Paxil. It left me feeling exhausted and hungry all the time and I still haven't lost that weight (actually I continued gaining). I'm now on a different anti-depressant but I don't know if that will still make it difficult to lose weight.
chachaheels - i'm 5' even, if that gives you a better idea of what i have to work with here. higher weights for short people add up to much higher fat percentages. The shape of my body increases exponentially as my weight increases. i am considered obese based on my weight and height ratio - 32% body fat).
it does not matter having weight gain/weight loss from muscle mass explained - i understand how it works in theory. i'm 60lbs overweight, my goal weight is 100-105lbs - yes totally appropriate for my height and small body frame - so any weight gain, even if it is supposedly from muscle gain is absolutely bad for my body. i'm not getting any smaller or lighter despite eating sufficient amounts of food and exercising regularly. i know i said i think i lost 2inches from the waist....i measured the other day, and it was less than it had been in October 2007.
i've had my hormones looked at, and apparently i am normally functioning. no one really seems to know why i'm not losing weight after making 'all the right changes' - not my regular doctor, not the former personal trainer, not the nutritionist. and since i'm not stereotypically obese looking, i don't get any support to lose weight. as for getting a new nutritionist, that's not possible, as the one i'm seeing is the ONLY one who would see me despite not being diabetic or pregnant and is covered by insurance.
P_176, I'm 4'11 and currently weigh between 125-130 and I'm not considered obese by any of my doctors. I think it's silly to say any weight gain is bad. Of course gaining muscle isn't bad. I don't think you can really say there's an ideal weight for someone at a particular height because our bodies are so different and so many things factor into an ideal weight. If I weighed 100 I think I'd be unhealthy. My mom on the other hand is 4'10, more petite than my body type, and weighs 100 and I think she looks healthy and fit. My 'goal' would probably be around 115 because I have a very curvy body type (i put 'goal' in brackets because I was serious when I said I didn't like numbers). My weight really hasn't changed much in the past 5 months but I've definitely lost inches and look a lot more fit then I did in say...January.
p_176, are you calling yourself "obese" because of your BMI? If you are, you have to know that the BMI is focused on the male body and it doesn't take into consideration the differences in fat to muscle ratio in the female body. Our scale of fat to muscle is different for quite a good reason: without fat, we don't menstruate; without menstruating, we don't create life. You have to be aware of just how faulty that tool is, when it's applied to women. It's generally discounted as invalid by all doctors and nutritionists now, not just for women either--apparently it's not all that accurate a tool for judging men's weight and health either.

Just to demonstrate how wrong and inaccurate it is, have you seen Kate Harding's BMI project? Look here:

Kate Harding put together a series of photographs of various women and their respective BMI's and their "classification" according to that tool. Nothing says ridiculous more effectively than her project.

Following that, not all weight gain is bad. In women particularly, fat is not even the big health bugaboo we've all been lead to believe it is. Just recently a very highly publicized study concluded what all of us "fat" people already know: your health is no more at risk if you're overweight than it is if you're "normal" sized.

If you're gaining weight from muscle after eating a starvation diet that shut your metabolism right down, be very, very happy. That added muscle weight you're packing on is going to fix the damage done by that starvation diet, and if you continue consistently to eat sufficiently and to exercise as you're doing, you'll find that the weight comes off and stays off, and that's a result you never would have achieved with a starvation diet. Tip: if you're exercising and your weight is not moving, and you're eating a strict diet of x number of calories per day, chances are excellent you are not eating enough. Eat more and drink more water, and I bet you'll see weight loss take place again.

If your nutritionist is telling you that your "BMI makes you out to be obese, therefore you are obese", and putting you on a long term starvation diet of 1400 calories a day, and then telling you that the normal height and weight range for a person like you is between 100 and 105 lbs (you have a whole range, from about 115 to 145 pounds, that is the "healthy" range for your height, you're actually aiming to be underweight), then I would suggest to you that having no nutritionist at all would be far better for your health than having this one.
i saw the kate harding project when it was first posted on bust. i was planning on looking at it again - computers at work are so slow.
nutritionist finally put me on 2000 calories per day (based on my resting metabolic rate and activity level). the 2000 calories a day has the goal of getting me to lose the max 2lbs per week, since to maintain my high weight i'd need 3000 calories per day. obviously, going overnight from 1400 to 2000 calories per day, i gained a ton of weight. and yea, when i asked the nutritionist point blank if the change in calorie intake affected it, she said no, it's because i was drinking wine and had a cookie.
obese calculation is based on body fat percentage, not BMI, 'cause BMI is basically an indicator that indicates not much. and since i'm short, and my weight had leveled out at 100lbs for most of my life, yea, that's the ideal weight for my frame.
Yes BMI is a very strange thing.

According to BMI I am overweight. I'm 5'7" and I weigh in at around 160, with a waist of 28" or a size 6. I work out around 2-3 hours a day, not for weight loss or anything, but because I'm training for what is going to be an incredibly physically demanding test. Even my doctor took a look and said, clearly you are not.

Even in terms of what we weigh and size is different from bustie to bustie.

I recall reading somewhere that the average woman needs at least 15 calories for every pound she weighs just for one's body to be able to live and perform it's daily functions. That doesn't include what you need if you are working out at all.

it's funny, I'm 5'4" and my "ideal" weight according to the charts is around 115 - 120. When I'm at that weight, I seriously look like I'm starving myself and friends / family actually tell me I look too thin. (and I think so too) I think my ideal weight is around 125-130. When I'm that weight, I'm a size 5 and look great. Right now, I'm pretty out of shape, and I'm 140, and a size 7 ish. I've been pretty athletic most of my life (except the last few months when I've been sidelined due to a shoulder injury + drinking way too much) so all I can chalk it up to is muscle mass.

in other words - I agree with what everyone else said - numbers that try to tell you what is "ideal" etc. are completely arbitrary. It's all about what shape your body is naturally + muscle mass vs. fat + eating healthy + exercise + a dose of good ol' genetics.

Okay, so you're telling me you're going to keep working with a nutritionist who puts you on a starvation diet then bumps you up to almost 100% more food who tells you, when you gain weight after that, that you've eaten a cookie and had a glass of wine--and that's the culprit?

What for?

I think part of the problem is that you're expecting overnight results, and you're not being realistic. A great part of the problem is that you're not getting good support from an incompetent or unconcerned nutritionist (she's answered your real questions with accusations about how you're responsible for what's happened to you after following her directions).

I know you're aggravated and frustrated, but you have to focus on just keep thinking about eating your protein and fat rich foods while cutting out sugar and refined grain foods, especially if you're working out. Stay focused on watching your body grow stronger, and be consistent about your workouts, don't get discouraged. I persist in encouraging people to measure themselves on a weekly basis--you'll see lots of results there that are far more revealing of what is going on in the body than a number on a scale. These are ways of moving around self-sabotage. They're tools you can use.

I don't know how old you are, either--but you have to understand that "what you've weighed all your life" changes a hell of a lot over your life. When we hit the end of childhood and the beginning of adolescence, our metabolism increases exponentially and in women, fat starts to become stored in particular parts of the body in order to start menstruation. The metabolism stays pretty consistent until about nineteen or twenty years for a lot of women, then it stabilizes until bone growth stops, which is about the end of the twenties for most women. After that, your metabolism slows down considerably because the vast majority of your body's growing and changing has been completed (unless, of course, pregnancy takes place; then the female body ramps up again and changes drastically in order to sustain the other forming life). So your weight is going to change accordingly. Just because you were 100 lbs when you were thirteen doesn't mean 100 lbs will continue to be a healthy weight for you when you're 22. Even if you were exactly the same height.

Good luck, use all the resources you can, and be patient with yourself. Weight loss is a hell of a lot easier for what appear to be unknown reasons when you simply accept yourself as you are, uncritically.
Does any one know of a good liver cleanse/fast? I have been thinking about doing one but I really don't know how to trust the interweb for information. I need one where I actually eat something because I get really pissy when I don't eat sad.gif
QUOTE(tankgirl @ Aug 21 2008, 11:04 AM) *
Does any one know of a good liver cleanse/fast? I have been thinking about doing one but I really don't know how to trust the interweb for information. I need one where I actually eat something because I get really pissy when I don't eat sad.gif

A good friend of mine who is a personal trainer recommended starting every day with a big wedge of lemon squeezed into a cup of boiling water, before eating anything else. He said this cleans your liver, helping it to digest the food you eat of the rest of the day more effectively.
QUOTE(tankgirl @ Aug 21 2008, 11:04 AM) *
Does any one know of a good liver cleanse/fast? I have been thinking about doing one but I really don't know how to trust the interweb for information. I need one where I actually eat something because I get really pissy when I don't eat sad.gif

I was thinking about doing a liver cleanse a couple months back, but after doing some research, decided to do a full body cleanse instead. I bought a "complete body cleanse kit" for around $30 The pills in the morning were concentrated on detoxing the liver, which included milk thistle, dandelion, oregon grape root, artichoke leaf and some other stuff. In the evening I took a supplement to support digestion (in other words made me poo alot) If you are cleansing the liver you want to be sure that toxins are elimitated and not circulated back into your bloodstream (which is why it's important to sweat, poo and pee alot!) I also eliminated caffeine, sugar, wheat, corn, and soy. My diet is predominately vegan, so I didn't have to worry about dairy, meat or eggs. I drank alot of pure water, kombucha and lemon water. My food consisted of brown rice/quinoa, lightly steamed and raw vegetables, fresh vegetable juice, nuts and seeds, beans and legumes (especially lentils), fruit, olive and flax seed oil, I also supplemented my diet with spirulina.
I tend to eat pretty healthy, but after having surgery and consuming massive amounts of pain killers, I thought my system needed a break. To be honest, I felt like crap the entire week. I slept 10 hours a day, I was cranky and pooped my brains out. I also had crazy pms that week, which didn't help.
On the seventh day I started feeling better. Alot better. I felt lighter, had more energy didn't experience my usual cravings for sugar and alcohol. I reccomend doing a cleanse a couple times a year. So... go for it!
chachaheels - yea in the beginning i did expect results more quickly. now i am past that and am ok with slower results, because they stick better.
as for meeting the nutritionist again, i said i'd only see her if i could measure my metabolic rate again, since i don't have a way to do that at home. most likely i will cancel the meeting.
since you asked if i had hormonal issues that could be affecting things, i had said no, but scheduled an appt with an endocrinologist to clear it for sure, as i have not had my hormones checked in a year or more.
however, the nurse at my office recommended that i see a registered dietician instead of a nutritionist. the same person agreed that, though i may *look* okay, the fact that my weight is so high is definitely a problem and i'm still at risk for diabetes and such.
i did actually weight 95-100lbs until i was 21. i gained muscle, at the time, which has gone away into fat, as i was sick and could not work out. at 5' and 120-130lbs....i guess now, even though that's still big, i'd take it now, as it's smaller than where i am now.
liver cleanse/fast - i have done the Whole Body Cleanse, i got it at GNC. i researched which were good cleansing systems. this i thought was good - you take the pills at night mostly, so it cleanses you as you sleep. don't take the full serving of the laxatives or else you'll be pooping every hour. i felt more energetic when i did this. i did not drink alcohol or soda, even diet, when doing this. it's only for 2 weeks, as opposed to some cleansing things that take a month to complete.
eeesh that was a long response. thanks for everything, and have a great weekend!
p_176, with all due respect, five feet tall and 120 to 130 lbs is well within the healthy weight limits for a person your height.
In fact, add another 10 to 20 pounds and you're still in the limit.

I think the belief that you're automatically at risk for disease just because of your weight has been soundly disproved by now, too. You're at much at risk as a thin person would be, for the same diseases.

Glad you're seeing an endocrinologist, though.

A good liver cleanse--1 litre hot water, juice of half a fresh lemon, a dash of cayenne, a tsp of maple syrup, a pinch of celtic sea salt. Drink 4 8z glasses of this master cleanse mixture every day for a week or so, and restrict the foods you eat to:

real meat or fish broths
raw and steamed greens
fresh fruit (limit this to one piece a day)
raw, steamed or parboiled vegetables
poached fish, broiled meats and veggies
lots of water, fruit teas
no caffeine, no alcohol, no refined sugars or starches of any kind
I'm just wondering, how does a doctor help you figure out your metabolic rate?

Also, chacha, I was just wondering how you came to figuring out the right ratio of protein and carbs for yourself. I have another question for you but I'm not totally sure if it belongs in here. My issue is that my period this month is lasting way longer than usual and everyday I feel like I am so hungry! I'm used to getting a little bit of extra hunger but not for 8 days straight and definitely not such an intense feeling of hunger. It was like suddenly my usual amount of food just wasn't cutting it for me. Do you have any idea what the deal is?

there's a machine and mouthpiece you breathe into for 10 minutes. you have to not exercise, not have caffeine and fast for 6 hours before taking it to make it as accurate as possible. if you google RMR test, it comes up.
the high end of my weight range is 130. i've read some of the articles about how being overweight does not automatically mean you'll get diabetes and such....i don't exactly believe those articles, frankly. i know the location of fat is a bigger determination of effects on health. i know that what is overweight to one person is not the same for another person, and that numbers on one person don't mean the same things for another person (the crux of this whole discussion?) perhaps not a popular opinion, but i cannot help but think that these studies give people license to eat junk and not have an active lifestyle, because then they think well even if i'm overweight i'm still healthy and ok?
CCGirl, I just paid attention to what happened when I ate particular foods. And what happened when I didn't eat.

For me, when I'm really involved in anything, I forget to eat. When I was younger, I could go hours on end without eating and not notice any difference in the way I felt or thought or even in my energy levels. Once you reach a certain age, however, your body tells you you can't do that anymore. For me, the hypoglycemic symptoms became dire--I had no idea what was happening to me but I'd feel shaky all of a sudden, lightheaded enough to pass out (which I sometimes did) and extremely nauseated (but of course, there was nothing to vomit as I hadn't eaten). I would reach for something sugary because usually that's all that's around when you're not looking after yourself (not shopping for food, not cooking for yourself, just not prioritizing those things because you're too focused on what you're doing instead).
The change in emotional state was starting to get to people around me, too--snappy and irritable and frustrated and then hopeless. The headaches that would come along with this were epic, as well.

I was vegetarian at the time, still eating dairy and eggs. But when I was working or away from home then those things became less available. I realized it was when I went without eggs, or nuts, or cheese that the hypoglycemic symptoms would really be pronounced. I tended to eat a lot of vegetables like tomatoes, carrots, stuff to make salads--not so much the greens; and I did cook a lot of beans and pulses when I was a vegetarian but like I said, I was not always capable of cooking for myself if I was away from home and working at something. It's not always possible to get good protein foods as a vegetarian--though soy mock foods were available then as they are now. I basically just kept track of what happened when I didn't eat sufficient protein, what would happen when I'd eat starchy foods as opposed to foods with carbohydrates that took longer to break down. If I didn't have sufficient protein in the meal my "fallback" staple tended to be breads or pasta or rice or beans with a lot of starch in them--and sure enough, I would always notice that I felt hungrier much sooner when I ate these (and experienced the hypoglycemia symptoms sooner) than if I'd hate enough protein instead. So over time I just modified and observed and kept what worked. When I stopped eating soy, I really felt a change and I decided to add fish back into my diet again. That made things a lot easier, in terms of getting protein in my diet--and it also made experiencing the after effects of eating fruit, starchy foods, and sugary foods a lot more visible and clear. So I wasn't actually thinking in terms of ratio there, I was just using what works and what doesn't work...doing what I seemed to benefit from as opposed to what seemed to make me uncomfortable. When I later started to analyze protein amounts in portions etc. etc., it worked out to about 40:30:40...but personally, I function a lot better with 35 protein, 45 fat, and about 20 carb. It varies, though: when I have my period the need for starch and salt and sour/bitter seems to increase (some women have dire cravings for things like red meat during their periods--pay attention to these cravings because they do indicate a need you should address). If I take magnesium phosphoricum tissue salts, however, that need seems to quiet down.

If your period is heavy--good. It means a particularly thorough cleansing is taking place, maybe things are shifting hormonally and the excess wastes accumulated over the last month have increased. I think a very heavy period once in a while is a good thing--be reassured by it and think of it as part of the fluctuation you hope to see in a healthy cycle. If you feel hungrier than normal, EAT. You don't have to binge, you can try to eat foods according to your cravings that aren't just empty calories and malicious flavour/perfume ingredients. Craving sugar? Eat fruit. Craving chocolate? Eat chocolate. Craving fatty foods? Eat good cheeses, eat nuts like macadamias, walnuts, almonds, pistachios, filberts. Eat avocado. Craving red meat? Eat a nice steak as opposed to a Big Mac (hell, they cost about the same now, don't they?).

p_176, I believe the studies. For women especially, there is nothing in being "overweight" that predisposes you to any particular disease, and since the definition of "overweight" is so arbitrary it can't actually be seen as a bona fide medical condition, then any conclusion about it being dangerous for your health is highly questionable.

Years ago in her book Backlash, Susan Faludi wrote about and documented the crazy obsession with fat hatred that was really just starting to blossom way back at the beginning of the nineties, when all the PhenPhen drugs were being put on the market (what a curious coincidence!). In her chapter on "fat hatred = woman hatred", she actually looked at real morbidity stats that actuarialists keep on their clients--the people who keep track of human health records because they're in the business of paying out insurance benefits. Turns out, according to her research and according to much of the research a number of good studies have pointed out recently that women who are "overweight" actually live longer and healthier than women who are "normal" weight, whatever the hell that is. Men, however, suffer from adding fat stores on their bodies because they are men--their bodies are not constructed the same way and they are not meant to store fat in the same way women are. Men see significant change in their health by being more than 10% more fatty than they should be--women don't see any changes in terms of health unless they are significantly heavier, and if they are their weight at that point will have nothing to do with not working out or eating too much food. As a homeopath who has to pay attention to what the body craves, and what people choose to eat simply because these are clues about what is happening in the body physiologically, I know people don't just choose their foods for no reason. They may very well not be aware of their reasons--but they are there, 100% physiological motives. There are also millions of other factors for food choice that have nothing to do with how much you know about healthy nutrition--many of them socio-economic, and stemming from the same kinds of lack of personal power that effects us all on many different levels (so of course they will effect us in the way we feed ourselves too).

Bottom line: the body wants what the body wants. It's not stupid and in need of correction by modern "science", it knows what it needs.

Believe what you want, p_176, do what you see fit for yourself. I don't want to make persuasive arguments here, just sharing my experience as a person who was told she was "fat" all her life (and really was not, and really am not even now) and forced by well meaning doctors on diets that were supposedly healthy but were really insane. So, honestly, whatever the conventional medical school has to say about nutrition is something I question now, since my first hand experience of that "nutrition" science involved diets of 500 calories a day for 8 to 12 months at a time, and more than once! And those diets always included a "maintainance" supplement of "B vitamins" that was really a cocktail including speed, given by injection, every week or so. Speed definitely keeps that metabolism hopping, that's for sure. It just has this nasty drawback of psychosis, as a long term complication.

As a result I tend to think a lot of the "fatso fatso" health warnings are marketing bullshit now, for reasons I think are valid; I also think any difficulties "fat" people experience when they undergo "treatments" like the ones I went through are pretty much iatrogenic (caused by the treatment, directly).

To each her own.
Thanks for that info Chacha. I was feeling really distressed because my period was waaaay heavier than normal (I filled up my diva cup in a mere two hours!) and I kept feeling hungry but I wasn't in the mood for anything in particular, which was even more frustrating.

I'm now back in Toronto where it's going to be way easier for me to stay away from fast food. On a trip just to the grocery store in my hometown I would pass by Burger King, Mc Donald's, KFC, Harvey's, Arby's, Tim Hortons and Taco Bell. It's fucking ridiculous down there and I ended up having quite a bit of Taco Bell. There's still fast food here but I have to go out of my way to get it and now that I'm back to living on my own I'd rather make something at home that's healthier and cheaper.
QUOTE(p_176 @ Aug 23 2008, 10:32 AM) *
there's a machine and mouthpiece you breathe into for 10 minutes. you have to not exercise, not have caffeine and fast for 6 hours before taking it to make it as accurate as possible. if you google RMR test, it comes up.
the high end of my weight range is 130. i've read some of the articles about how being overweight does not automatically mean you'll get diabetes and such....i don't exactly believe those articles, frankly. i know the location of fat is a bigger determination of effects on health. i know that what is overweight to one person is not the same for another person, and that numbers on one person don't mean the same things for another person (the crux of this whole discussion?) perhaps not a popular opinion, but i cannot help but think that these studies give people license to eat junk and not have an active lifestyle, because then they think well even if i'm overweight i'm still healthy and ok?

p_176, I'd like to recommend a book to you (and please don't be insulted or dissuaded by the title). It's called "A Fat Girl's Guide to Life" by Wendy Shankman.

It's a VERY FUNNY read. True life account of her years of dieting and attempted weight loss. I hope you pick it up and enjoy it, but the crux is this: She eats healthily. She works out 3-4 times/week. She is just over 200 pounds, and has been for a long time - it is the weight her body wants to be at. All of her levels and heath triggers are normal, or better than normal. Yet, according to her BMI, she is morbidly obese. She is in essence, a "skinny fat person". I know many people who are thin who are far less healthy than heavier people.

Myself, I have a 20 lb range that my body tends to stay in (I'm 5'8" and 160-180 at any given time .....right now closer to 180) and throughout this 20 lb range I wear the same size clothes. Sure, a little tighter, a little looser, but what I'm saying is I can drop 20 lbs, and not have to buy new clothes. Everyone's body is different. I just feel like you're being a little hard on yours.
Here is an update on my ovaries: I had an ultrasound today and the tech confirmed that they are indeed covered with cysts, and I have a few small fibroids in my uterus, but she said that it's nothing to worry about (the fibroids, not the cysts). I'm not so sure; my mom had her uterus removed a few years ago because her fibroids got so big. i wonder if mine will grow bigger? I have a dr. appt. in 12 days so I can ask him all my questions. I can't wait to start my medication so i can feel better! I was strange seeing my ovaries though; I'm happy but also sad about the cysts. The cysts mean that my symptoms aren't my imagination and that there's a reason for them and so can be treated, but also cysts are never a good thing. My lady-parts are totally F'd-up. sad.gif
geekchickknits - i've heard good reviews of the book but have not picked it up yet. i'm not being overly hard onn my body. i am having a consult with an endocrinologist to make absolutely sure there's no hidden hormonal issue. no matter how you cut it, i have to lose a lot of weight.
I have a question if anyone knows the answer, please help! I just had an ultrasound Wednesday and found out I have lots of cysts on my ovaries, which i kind of knew already. For over a week now I've had a dull ache in my pelvis and upper leg area, right where my ovary is, sort of like a charlie horse, and it keeps getting more intense everyday. This is not like any menstrual cramp I've ever had, it just feels like something inside my pelvis is contracting, and my period is over. i also felt some sharp pins go through my cervix which were unusual. I'm really afraid I have a ruptured of twisted ovary/cyst but I can't tell. I feel a little warm lately, but I don't have a thermometer, so don't know if i have a fever. I have my OBGYN appt. Wednesday, should I wait this out or call my doctor? What do you think?
Queen Bull
i had a friend in college who had ovarian cysts and she used to get pains like that all the time, occasionally getting so bad that she couldnt walk or would pass out. Im not sure if thats what you are feeling, but if it is, then i dont think there is anything you can do. Also, was it you that was recently diagnosed with PCOS? Because another friend i have also has similar pains as a result of that, but hers was more 'quick and intense' then would stop. I personally think that there is nothing you can do besides take pain meds. That being said, Im no doctor and dont suffer from either of those myself. Perhaps you could call you OBGYN and ask if they think it is anything to come in early about, that way you can get an accurate answer.


Thanks Queen Bull. I am hoping that it won't get any worse, because my parents are driving 3 hours to see me and we are supposed to go to the Riverwalk & have Greek food. This is the first time they are visiting me at my new school. I don't want a ruptured cyst or anything like that to ruin my fun! I'm very excited.

Olivarria, I think cysts rupture all the time, and the pain that accompanies that is often like an inflammation, or sometimes like very deep cramps.

I agree that there is nothing that can be done conventionally except taking pain killers--but in my own experience, they're not that effective. As someone who spent a good decade on a variety of them as they were being introduced--everything from Ponstan to Anaprox to various birth control pills with supposedly varied levels of estrogen to ibuprofen before it was on the market, none were effective and all had scary side effects. That doesn't mean don't go and see what they've got--but it does mean keep in mind that actually suppressing the pain is no way to treat the illness. Cysts are not the bad things we think they are--they exist for a reason, a legitimate one at that. They do play a role--cysts from because they tend to be a strategy for "walling off" and containing dangerous processes or materials within the body, a strategy the body devises to limit the effect of the processes it's attempting to contain.

In terms of alternative medicines, lots and lots can be done. Cysts on the ovaries can effect endocrine gland function; you can limit the effects of that or even encourage resolution of those effects with a good food plan. Homeopathy done right--the classical method, with a qualified and well educated practitioner--in my opinion this is the best bet you've got, it's extremely effective at not just eliminating the cysts but also at eliminating and changing the process which needs to create them, changing the need for them. It can't be cured over night, you understand, but it can be treated. Traditional Chinese Medicine is also highly effective, but again: choose your practitioners carefully for their education and methodology and experience. You can't treat stuff like this "over the counter", and in a few minutes, and you certainly shouldn't get your treatments from people who know nothing about alternative medicine (this includes all your MDs and people who make a living selling products from health food stores).
chachaheels i agree with you. i have no word to say that but tell me where i can purchase big dress for gf plzzz help me
Olivarria, how are you feeling? Has the pain eased at all?

I had a few ruptured ovarian cysts when I was in my early 20s. I was not exerting myself whatsoever when they happened. Actually, they usually ruptured shortly after I woke up in the morning. The pain is undeniable. It's the sort of pain that will send you to the ER begging for something - anything - that will put you out of your misery. So if you haven't experienced that, your cyst probably hasn't ruptured.
Thanks for asking RoseViolet; the pain's definitely decreased. i feel it most when I'm laying down to rest because most of the time I'm too busy to notice it unless I'm relaxing. My doctor said I have no ruptured cyst, and put me on birth control/spironalactone, so let's hope this helps. How is your PCOS, has it gotten better since your cysts ruptured?

Has anyone every been on spiralactone? If so, how did it work out for you? I'm sill doing the low-carb/healthy fat/unprocessed food thing, and eating lots of coconut. Yesterday my burp smelled like coconut. Sorry, it's gross i know! And i don't know if this is a result of the coconut oil or healthier eating or what, but i think my body temp is higher now. I feel hot all the time, and seriously intolerant of heat, but then again I am in San Antonio, so that may explain it.
Hi everyone....sorry for the double post. I wanted to know if anyone is following Mary Enig's Eat Fat, Lose Fat plan, or a similar one? (Like low-glycemic, insulin resistance?) If so, i thought maybe we could swap recipes and give eachother moral support. I am using it as a way to lose some weight and help recover my health (PCOS and hypothyroid). So far, I lost 10 lbs. so far and feeling good.....less depressed (except for when I ran out of meds), more energetic, and no cravings. I don't know if it's had an effect on my hormones yet or not......time will tell. Mary Enig's books are wonderful; I am becoming open to foods i never would have otherwise. I even want to try organ meats and bone broth now, and i used to be a hard-core vegetarian. I let myself have a day once a month where I can eat simple carbs and sugar; like this last month I had moussaka and a waffle-cone with strawberries and chocolate chunks at the Riverwalk and on my birthday in October, I'm having French food and cheesecake. I feel mad that I was on Weight -Watchers for so long, feeling sick and gaining more weight, and now that I am eating much more I realize that I was virtually starving! Not meaning to dis anyone on Weight Watchers, but I'm very glad I changed my eating habits. i think it's helped in my situation. smile.gif (Thank you Chacha!)

Otherwise, if anyone is a yogurt lover, i found something amazing: Greek and Bulgarian yogurt. White Mountain Greek yogurt is a vast improvement over American yogurt, in my opinion. I found it in HEB because I was looking for yogurts with very little sugar, and it seemed that even the plain American yogurt had more sugar than I wanted (18g/cup). But Bulgarian or Greek yogurt only has 6g of sugar/cup, and lots of good bacteria. I ate a whole container of Greek yogurt (which is incredibly thick and rich - like cream!) and had to go stock up again the next day! I put berries, almonds, and flax on it, like a yogurt parfait. It has 5 strains of good bacteria, comes in recyclable jars, and is unpasteurized, although it is made from unpasteurized milk, as per the law. (I think US yogurt is pasteurized, in addition to being made from unpasteurized milk.) I am lactose intolerant and i can eat it in large amounts! Also so I've been eating raw Amish cheddar, which is very good on burgers and huevos rancheros.

BTW I do am not affiliated with nor do I work for White Mountain Bulgarian yogurt. But it is damn good stuff and wanted to share; it already has a huge cult following, but it may not be available outside of Texas. Vastly superior to Live Active or Activia, IMHO, and i bet some of you would really like it.
Olivarria, I'm so glad for your good news. Even the coconut burp good news (may I tactfully point out that it could smell far worse, okay?). I love hearing that people lose weight even though they're eating far more than they ever imagined on a "diet".

It disproves all that nonsense about people being fat because they just eat too damned much.

And I think Greek yogourt (it's called Balkan style here) is some of the best in the world (though I love home made Indian yogourt too). I agree it's so far superior to Activia and I hate the way Activia was touted to doctors when it first came out--the active organisms in that yogourt are not natural to dairy in any way, I truly believe they're genetically modified organisms that can be patented (that's what Activia's trying to do, patent and sell the microorganism as exclusive to their product, with the help of untutored medical authority--but most customers don't know, so it will pay off). Avoid, avoid, avoid.

The other great thing you pointed out: diabetes and other hormone imbalance diseases like PCOS aren't about too many carbs and sugars in the diet, they're about too much of any particular hormone in the body--in the case of diabetes, that's too much insulin in the blood. Of course, we try to manipulate the hormone levels by changing the diet drastically especially where foods that make the body most susceptible to the hormone changes are involved. So, usually, sugars and carbs are restricted in order to manipulate the insulin levels back to "normal" so that the chronic disease symptoms can be reversed. In a healthy person, these are meant to be "once in a while" foods--but even a healthy person will suffer eventually when these foods become the staple foods of the diet, which is what has happened to the American diet.

One last thing: I'd see that "warming up" feeling as a very good sign in my thyroid patients, particularly if they have been diagnosed as having an underfunctioning gland: it means their metabolism is changing and that the thyoid gland has been stimulated into activity again, on its way to becoming healthy again.

Hope that's the case for you! And it's lovely you've lost the 10 pounds. I hope you treat yourself to some lovely new clothes soon.
*nitpick: type 2 diabetes - I wish they would give type 1 diabetes a different name*

So, it seems like as soon as September hit the weather turned 10 degrees cooler and it's been pretty rainy. I haven't been biking much because of all the rain and I want to get back to the gym. It's so great not having classes to worry about and I work really close to the YMCA and within walking distance of my favourite hot yoga studio, so I'm hoping to start going in the next few weeks.

Unfortunately I don't think I'll get to play indoor soccer this year. They changed the game to no boards, and I hate playing with no boards. Someone from the Winnipeg Women's Soccer League actually tried to convince me to play but I said to her that no boards probably works great for a premier team that is very experience and committed, but we're a div. 5 team and some of our players have never even played soccer before, or have been out the game for 10+ years. We don't have the skill sets to have a fast paced game on a field where you can't use the boards. We don't even have time for practices. Some of our players are only spares and can't possibly build up a better game in our short season. The woman told me it would be good practice for outdoor games but I told her I don't play outdoor because I don't like the game. I play indoor because it's far more fun to me, it's not practice for outdoor. Anyway, it made me sad. Apparently I can contact alternative league's so we'll see.
I am getting new clothes Chacha! My size 14 jeans and pajamas are literally falling off of me, and I'm getting new blouses too. Not too many, because I'm still losing weight. Everytime i walk by the bathroom mirror, I feel taken aback, like is that me? I look weird! And yes, my breath could smell way worse, like cod fish oil. I'm using Carlson's, which happen to smell citrus-y. I like the challenge of creating new recipes out of the foods I'm eating. Here's my latest ideas: avocado soup and grilled eggplant pizza (eggplant replaces bread), alfredo/artichoke stuffed chicken, stuffed mushrooms, and moussaka (no potatoes). I like to watch the food porn on Anthony Bourdain! I've been eating much more high-quality food, and as a result i feel spoiled. Now I'm developing a taste for fine cheese and berries, cream, and so on, and i like to eat veggies with every meal, though i'm not big on fruit. For a college student, i don't know if this is a great thing financially, lol, but it's beats frozen burritos LOL. My favorite is huevos rancheros. I'm really hungry now!

My dr. says my PCOS resulted from weight gain; but i think my weight gain resulted from PCOS and hypothyroid. It's definite a chicken-or-egg issue. I'm seeing my endocrinoloist this week and asking to be put on Armour in stead of synthroid, because I'm still experiencing brain fog. Here's a great website for those with thyroid problems:

I feel conflicted about celebrating my weight-loss, because I'm a fat-acceptance advocate. I know that many "plus-size" women don't sit around eating junk, and many skinny people believe that misconception. I think the BMI is a crock; it doesn't take into account muscle, or big tits (*clears throat and looks at chest*), or genetics. When I say how happy I am i lost weight, it doesn't mean i think everyone should be skinny. I'm actually a healthy weight for my height, so that fact that i even want to lose weight is me succumbing to society's pressues. However, the weight gain is a result of health issues, so i guess it's ok for me to lose some. I haven't dated in a year and a half, and i know it's because I've lost confidence ( and probably because i haven't worn my cute clothes in a while). But i really shouldn't be putting my life on hold because I have a few extra pounds. I am seeing a therapist on campus for my self-esteem and depression, i hope this will help. Sorry for rambling on! *runs off to find self-esteem thread*

Edit: does anyone know if there is a self-esteem thread (not the depression thread)?
ErinJane, you're right to make the distinction (and I should have been clear about the fact that one exists).

Olivarria I think the depression issues will clear up once your thyroid begins to function properly again--I'd recommend that your endocrinologist begin testing your blood for thyroid hormone levels because there is a very good chance you won't need to take any drug, whether it's Armour's dessicated thyroid or synthroid. That would be the best case scenario; you're young and resilient so chances for this are very high, plus I've no reason to doubt that the diet itself could help put your body in the optimum position to just repair itself. If you continue using the same dose you'll be taking too much--and that is just as bad and not making enough. Since changes are taking place it really is important to get your doctor to work with you here.

As for how much this costs in terms of b eing a student, I know from experience there's no savings to be had from eating shitty food as a student. You can cook for yourself even with great ingredients and save tons more money than you'd save from eating school food and other fast food garbage schools seem to think make for good nutrition.

In my opinion, Anthony Bourdain is food porn.
In my opinion, Anthony Bourdain is food porn.

Aye papi.

I'm having a big change: I've been nauseous for the last three days, and no appetite, and all food is suddenly disgusting to me, especially yogurt, eggs, chicken, and I'm sorry to say, coconut. Coffee and cheese i can stomach, but I have a sour taste in my mouth all the time. I may have to take a hiatus from those foods for a short time while I'm waiting for the nausea to clear up. I think it might be the BC pill or spironalactone, which I started 6 days ago. Also my sex drive is dead. I hope these effects are not permanent!

I tried to be excited buying groceries tonight: I am making three recipes: apple-cinnamon bake with cheddar cheese (I thought of it!), portobello mushroom caps with asagio, parmesan, crab meat, seasoning, onions, and butter. Maybe mayonnaise. I made this at Thanksgiving and no one liked it, so I'll eat it all by myself this time! My third recipe is eggplant pizza with eggplant substituting for bread, with pepperoni and garlic. Me and my roommate have lots of mushrooms (non-hallucinagenic) so I want to try Bourdain's recipe for mushroom soup also. I hope my appetite comes back so i can truly enjoy it. I would almost raher be hungry than eat, because all food is just so gross right now.

Students in my dorm are required to purchase a meal plan so I have to eat in the cafeteria once a day or waste my money. But they cook the food right in front of us, so we know that's in it. I usully have salad, burger with no bun (I like beef), or an omelette with mushrooms, spinach, and cheese. There is a huge salad bar, and lots of choices here.

Chacha, do you know how low-carb is Mary-Enig's plan supposed to be? It's hard to tell from the book, because she doesn't specifically say how many carbs to eat, but some days on the meal plan you have carbs, while some days you have hardly any. I was really loving it at first, but now I feel a little bored with my food choices; I just can't eat coconut right now. Maybe I am doing it wrong, but all the food I've been eating now taste so.....low-carb, which doesn't sound good right now. Do you think I should stick it out or try the low-glycemic diet instead?
It's the expression on his face, more than anything, that makes him porny. I sigh when I think of why he felt he needed that bovine femur bone.

I always expect the sex drive to plummet on birth control pills. They override the amount of testosterone in our bodies. Reduced testosterone = no sex drive. It's not a side effect (there's no such thing as a side effect) it's a direct effect of all birth control pills. The number of women on the pill who have no desire for sex is the vast majority of the number of women on the pill.

Once you stop using hormonal forms of birth control, your drive should return. It does for many women.

The nausea is a different story. I know the spironolactone is commonly used for PCOS (and acne and hypertension and congestive heart failure and the list goes on) but it does have a serious effect on the kidneys because of what it does with the potassium in the body. It's possible you could be adjusting to that change and your kidneys are being put through a bit of a workout--that would put anyone off their food just because it's difficult to digest anything--diarrhea is a common effect, for example, because it's being used in your case as a diuretic. Tell your doctor. Another thing: while you're not eating starch you're getting lots of carbs in your diet--it's the protein I'm worried about since your kidneys are now being manipulated. Normally a higher protein diet requires you to supplement with potassium, but since this drug is actually "sparing" potassium you won't really need to take more. Again, check with your doctor to find out exactly what the drug is doing to you, and the goal of its use in your case.

That being said, you need a lot of variety in your food to stay happy with it--an occasional low glycemic carb won't kill you (alternative grains which have more protein in them and aren't so refined, such as quinoa, spelt, etc--look at for some great recipe ideas including these grain foods), and it may make you feel good, foodwise. Try giving the coconut a break as an ingredient, or take the coconut oil in a form that you won't taste (capsules, or in a smoothie--something easier to deal with than chewable food). The diet in the Eat Fat Lose Fat book that you start off with is something you stay on until your health is regained, and the recipes are meant to be used with other foods and options as long as the required amount of fat is eaten. Coconut is wonderful, but I think you can vary and stick with the basics: good quality meats and fish so you have variety, good quality real dairy, fresh vegetables, raw and fermented foods of all kinds as part of the diet.
Forget everything positive I said about our cafeteria food: I found a pubic-looking hair in my mushrooms today! Someone has to answer for this. Did I mention we are required to purchase this meal plan? Ech!!!

Chacha, when you say "occasional" carb, do you mean once a day, or very rarely? I would need to learn how to cook quinoa and spelt, but I do like to eat oatmeal in the morning. I like grits and corn tortillas too (I don't know if corn products are that great for me, but i really love grits......Southern girl talking.)

I'm going to buy coconut capsules, if I can find them, because I love the benefits of the oil. I meet with my endocrinologist next week, so let's hope there is a change in my T4/T3 levels. As always, thank you for the valuable info!

I was working with a trainer earlier in the year, but I've been having a really hard time establishing a routine without her. I was at the gym today for the first time in a weeks and came up with a bunch of questions.

I'm trying to get in about 45 minutes of cardio. Is it better to do it all on one machine, or break it up and use a few machine? And if I want to do strength and ab work, should I do it before or after cardio? I suspect that it doesn't matter as long as I'm doing it, but if I can optimize what I'm doing that would be great.

olivarria, if you can cook rice you can cook quinoa. It's even faster, so I find it easier.
star, I can't answer all your questions but my doctor/personal trainer last year said that it's best to do interval training to get the most benefit from your workout, you'll keep burning calories after you've finished the work out. For cardio, he usually had us do 5-10 minute warm up on treadmill, then 20-30 minutes doing intervals (either 1 minute walking/jogging, 2 minutes running at a steady but comfortable pace; 1 minute walking to 1 minute running; 30 seconds walking to 30 seconds running, etc - one the 4th day of the week during marathon training we would run for as long as we could), then a 5-10 minute walking cool down. We'd usually do 15-25 minutes on a bike after that.
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