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> What the F@%&?! And more feminist outrage...
nohope
post May 3 2006, 05:05 PM
Post #1561


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nohope, while you're always eloquent and you have thought out your arguments, i really have to disagree with you. almost all of my friends are male; therefore, if my friends and i want to go to a bar, a female-only bar would be useless. i don't go to bars to meet men, but that doesn't mean that nobody should do it. you are simply stepping around the fact that while it is up to me to be safe, there are reasonable boundaries. like, i shouldn't need a special place to socialize with liquor present because some drunken men don't understand the rules of being a decent human being.

tyger- but my point has to do with the choices available to you to be safe. Yes it is the responsibility of men to be decent human beings. But in face of men not being so, society should offer equitable alternatives for women. The article to which my proposal was a response seemed to say that women should simply remove themselves from public space in order to secure their safety. I on the other hand am simply saying that the feminist arguments they used to make this point actually point to another alternative, that being not the removal of women from the commons but making at least some parts of the commons safe space. I.e. women only bars. Not that you should be compelled to go there and driving from bars in which men drink, but rather that you deserve the option instead of being told that the reason you are raped is because you are violating nature by entering male spaces. The article almost implies that it is the bars which cause women to be raped and not the men in the bars.

like i said nohope, if its a girls night out, then fine all-women bars are ok by me. however, not only do i have FAR more guy friends than girlfriends (something i have a feeling is a fact for many many busties if not most), but i like to go to bars and chat with all types of people. men, women etc. i also like to go to bars to see if i may meet a guy etc etc. i dont go to bars to enjoy "a good drink", i go for the company. if i am explicitly hanging out with girls that night then i dont care. but since most of my friends are guys (a huge reason is that i get along better with guys-hence me being a busty to find like minded women that are hard to come across) and i like meeting guys at bars i think i should be able to hang out at a "co-ed" bar without fearing for my safety b/c men presumably cant control themselves. thats completely ludicrous to even suggest such a thing.

katiebelle2882 - Firstly most women in most communities don't have the choice of going to a women only bar. Secondly, most women are raped by people they know and trust. There is a much higher likely hood of being rapes by a friend or relative than a stranger at a bar. But that is also much more likely to happen if alcohol is involved. Thirdly going to a bar to get laid to me sounds like a recipe for disaster. Basically one is tapping into every single social myth about coupling, and the introduction of alcohol along with the completely irrational sets of expectations and baggage which is involved is the perfect storm for smashed egos, challenged identities, and the type of social crises which invariably lead to violence (i.e. rape, battery or if you are more lucky, verbal abuse.)

I know lots of people think that going to bars to get laid is a good idea, but I can�t but see it as a form of social sadism and masochism since as I pointed out earlier, most people end up going home alone and lonely, and angree, and feeling regally unloved and unwanted and unattractive and unsuccessful. I mean there is a lot of baggage hanging out there and up for grabs when people go to bars to mate or find a mate. It's insanity.
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greenbean
post May 3 2006, 01:24 PM
Post #1562


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Posts: 954


I have more guy friends too!
Another thing, I've hung out at lesbian bars before, and some lesbians can be just as seedy as men! (i.e, holding on to your waist as they pass thourgh the crowd)
The point is it should be a choice. If I dont feel like socializing at a bar, then I stay home. I know what is a dangerous situation and I choose if I will risk it or not.
The same goes for guys, for instance, there has been a rash of muggings in my neighborhood this year and two men have been killed by the muggers. Does that mean no men are walking the streets at night? On the contrary I still see men out at night, eventhough they know its not safe.


--------------------
I thank God I was raised Catholic, so sex will always be dirty.--John Waters
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katiebelle2882
post May 3 2006, 11:23 AM
Post #1563


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Posts: 647
From: NYC


and i would like to point out that while going to bars may not be the "best" place to meet a boyfriend/girlfriend, neither are coffee shops, as i find them to be chock full of pretentious, pseudo-intellectuals looking bored. furthermore, that kind of implies that decent, intelligent men dont go to bars.

also i would like to point out, sometimes, i just want to get laid, i am not going out with the intention of meeting the love of my life ya know.


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There's something about the Irish that is remarkable.-Franois de la Rochefoucauld
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katiebelle2882
post May 3 2006, 11:09 AM
Post #1564


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From: NYC


like i said nohope, if its a girls night out, then fine all-women bars are ok by me. however, not only do i have FAR more guy friends than girlfriends (something i have a feeling is a fact for many many busties if not most), but i like to go to bars and chat with all types of people. men, women etc. i also like to go to bars to see if i may meet a guy etc etc. i dont go to bars to enjoy "a good drink", i go for the company. if i am explicitly hanging out with girls that night then i dont care. but since most of my friends are guys (a huge reason is that i get along better with guys-hence me being a busty to find like minded women that are hard to come across) and i like meeting guys at bars i think i should be able to hang out at a "co-ed" bar without fearing for my safety b/c men presumably cant control themselves. thats completely ludicrous to even suggest such a thing.


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There's something about the Irish that is remarkable.-Franois de la Rochefoucauld
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tyger
post May 2 2006, 08:18 PM
Post #1565


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Posts: 948


nohope, while you're always eloquent and you have thought out your arguments, i really have to disagree with you. almost all of my friends are male; therefore, if my friends and i want to go to a bar, a female-only bar would be useless. i don't go to bars to meet men, but that doesn't mean that nobody should do it. you are simply stepping around the fact that while it is up to me to be safe, there are reasonable boundaries. like, i shouldn't need a special place to socialize with liquor present because some drunken men don't understand the rules of being a decent human being.
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nohope
post May 2 2006, 06:07 PM
Post #1566


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um female only bars? thanks but no thanks. unless i am a lesbian, it kind of defeats the purpose of me going to a bar unless i am on a girls night out. why should we have to change our behavior bc men are ridiculous?

katiebelle2882 - by "defeat the purpose" you mean its hard to enjoy a good drink with out guys around?

Back a few years ago I was single and I would post here at bust but mostly at Roboticjesuse were I had basically a blog about my drunken escapades and misogynist dark side which every now and then included a girl who would make the unfortunate error of hitting on me and how I would humiliate them or myself or a combination of the two. That fact is I like to go out and drink. I even liked to go out and dance. I like to drink in crowded bars, and I like to be left alone both when I drank and when I danced.

If there is a reason I don�t go to �gay bars� it is precisely because guys (not gays) think it�s their job to �hunt� for mates. And I think most people have this totally irrational idea that bars are places to meat people. (you decide whether that was intentional or not) But the truth is most people who go out drinking go home drunk. And therefore the inevitable conclusion is that bars, despite all preconceived ideas, are really there for one purpose and one purpose alone, to push alcohole. If you are going to a bar for any other reason you are setting yourself up for disappointment.

Now the fact that violence against women usually includes alcohol use does not excuse the violence or the violator, but it should act as a general worming to any one who is involved with alcohol, especially when mixing that with men, that whether you are a man or a women, you have a greater chance of being a victim of violence by a man when alcohol is present than when it is not.

Truth be told men have a high chance of being violently attacked without justification by women, as I have been on at least been on one occasion, when alcohol is present.

So I will give the advice v- gave me, which I thought was sound, if you want to meet a rational, caring, respectfull partner, try going to a coffee shop.

I just didn�t want to meet people at the time she gave me the advice, but that is a different story.

--Nohope--I've thought about female-only bars myself but the idea isnt very exciting. We girls like to meet guys and we would like to trust guys. Can you imagine if every bar and party you went to was all guys, because us chicks were too afraid of rape? Not a pretty picture.

greenbean- yeah, and if it meant that women were safer, Id prefer that they stayed away from the combination of men and alcohol. It certainly is better than if every bar and party I went to was full of girls, despite because us chicks were too afraid of rape?

Also, I think that "women only" could be problematic. How are we defining women? It seems to me like every time we try to restrict something by gender we end up leaving out someone who doesn't fit into the binary gender system.

Battygurl- I agree that is an interesting and troubling problem. And one which I think at least for me demonstrates the weakness of feminism. And feminism potential for sexism, and reinforcement of patriarchal constructs.

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battygurl
post May 2 2006, 05:15 PM
Post #1567


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I think I would appreciate the option of women-only bars, because I go out a lot not to meet people (male or female), but just to have fun dancing. Of course, I would far prefer it if I could go to a mixed bar and not have my ass grabbed/people who think if I dance with them I want to go home with them/unwanted attention in general.
Also, I think that "women only" could be problematic. How are we defining women? It seems to me like every time we try to restrict something by gender we end up leaving out someone who doesn't fit into the binary gender system.


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Tears are curious things, for like earthquakes or puppet shows they can occur at any time, without any warning, and without any good reason. --Lemony Snicket
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greenbean
post May 2 2006, 02:13 PM
Post #1568


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Anarch--I read some of the MeFi stuff and I was quite pleased how most posters view the topic. Some posts though, were a bit defensive but I think some guys get a bit defensive about the topic because they are afraid of the stereotypical feminist (a man-hater) and they fear that we think "all men are either pigs or rapists!"

This is soooo not true. I know many feminists and NONE are man-haters. Even the lesbian friends I have generally like guys. If anything this rape topic makes me re-appreciate the men in my life, and makes me re-swoon for all the guys who I've hooked up with who let me call all the shots. Joe was the only one who ignored my "messages", and I guess sometimes-- not as the cliche goes but--it takes one bad apple to realize how good the other apples are.

(ok, I guess this is a bit to touchy-feely for an "outrage" thread, so sorry if its a derail...)


--------------------
I thank God I was raised Catholic, so sex will always be dirty.--John Waters
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alligator
post May 1 2006, 02:47 PM
Post #1569


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Cut & paste away, should the option (re)occur.
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anarch
post May 1 2006, 01:44 PM
Post #1570


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Posts: 873


well, the post was deleted for breaking the AskMetafilter guidelines - too "chatty", meaning too open-ended, with no clearly-defined answer possible. I disagree, but whatever. The rules say I can't post again for a week. If one of the cool posters in the original thread decides to rephrase it better and post it, I'll let you guys know.

Thanks for the cool discussion here. I heart you.
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greenbean
post May 1 2006, 12:51 PM
Post #1571


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*drive-by*
--Good job, alligator!
--Anarch--thanks for keeping Bust safe! Those MetaFites can get belligerent!
--Nohope--I've thought about female-only bars myself but the idea isnt very exciting. We girls like to meet guys and we would like to trust guys. Can you imagine if every bar and party you went to was all guys, because us chicks were too afraid of rape? Not a pretty picture.


--------------------
I thank God I was raised Catholic, so sex will always be dirty.--John Waters
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anarch
post May 1 2006, 12:18 PM
Post #1572


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Fantastic, alligator. ok with you if I cut & paste your words into the AskMetafilter discussion? attributed to "a guy on another discussion board," because I don't want to link back here - I feel like Bust is a safe space and Metafilter is public, usually safe, but ofte subject to crap that I don't want to bring into Bust.
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alligator
post May 1 2006, 12:11 PM
Post #1573


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Tip For Guys, #2: When you're making a new female acquaintance (date, heavy date or whatever), neither of you should get stone drunk. Even if she's up for the experience, it's just a bad idea for many reasons. It is the very nature of booze to destroy your judgment and self-control. Save the plastering for when you both know and can reasonably trust each other.
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alligator
post May 1 2006, 11:58 AM
Post #1574


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A good tip would be: "Unless the girl asks you to play rough, never hold her in a tight grip. Besides, don't you want her hands free to caress your back or run her fingers through your hair?"

Another good one: When you're about to cross the line from cuddling/making out/etc. into actual sex, look her in the eyes and ask her point-blank if that's ok with her. If you get anything other than a genuine, enthusiastic "Yes," there's something wrong or something she's not telling you. Zip it up, splash some water on your face and (nicely) ask if anything is wrong.
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anarch
post May 1 2006, 11:48 AM
Post #1575


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drive-by posting of
AskMetafilter link. At first I thought I'd wait to see if the discussion was any good, but I decided some people might want to watch it unfold. There's been one stupid hostile comment already but I'll do my best to deter derailings. (can't mind the thread for about 4 hours tonight though, so if you're inclined to join Metafilter, feel free to jump in if the discussion needs guiding)
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katiebelle2882
post May 1 2006, 10:22 AM
Post #1576


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Posts: 647
From: NYC


um female only bars? thanks but no thanks. unless i am a lesbian, it kind of defeats the purpose of me going to a bar unless i am on a girls night out. why should we have to change our behavior bc men are ridiculous?


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There's something about the Irish that is remarkable.-Franois de la Rochefoucauld
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hoosierman78
post May 1 2006, 10:03 AM
Post #1577


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Posts: 92


Anarch - Honestly, this topic of conversation doesn't come up all that much with me these days, mostly due to the fact that I spend most of my time at work, and what's left I spend with my wife and renovating our house. My lone day is Wednesday when I have my company golf league. During this time, the topic of rape comes up mostly when there is a high profile case on the news and for the most part, all the guys are on the same page I am. There are a few that are skeptical of the victim's story, but throw in an 'if he did it, he should (insert cruel and unusual punishment here). One thing we all agree on is rapists should have bodily parts cut off with a dull, rusty knife. That's just how it is here. Oh, and did I mention that I work for a construction company? Yes, most of these guys are 'manly men', but when it comes down to it, will tolerate absolutely zero abuse of women. Even when the Duke case came out, there are some that question the story of the victim, but that's more due to the light the media has put the case in, and all agree that judgement should wait until all evidence is shown at trial. Like Alligator, I guess I just don't associate with boys (I refuse to call them men, they are not) that think it's ok to force their will on women.
In college, the topic came up quite often, both when just the guys and when in mixed company. Again, everyone I hung out with pretty well felt the same way in regards to rapists.
I really don't get how people can be so clueless. Besides, I just don't see the enjoyment factor in raping a woman. Sex with a willing and active partner would have to be better than with someone passed out drunk or someone that is being pinned down completely against their will.
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nohope
post Apr 30 2006, 07:39 PM
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NoHope, do you really think the solution is to have female only bars? One of my big issues with that article was the insinuation that since we probably won't be able to change male behavior, women ought to just suck it up and not get drunk, not go party, b/c really, we ought to know better. And so...you know, rape is sort of our fault. And while we're not drinking or partying, we should probably cover up and stop flirting with men, b/c everyone knows that if you flirt, you're really just asking for it. When are people (outside of this board of course) going to acknowledge that there is something wrong with the culture of men, and telling women to stop "putting themselves in dangerous situations" is a bandaid. How about, men, stop endangering women? And I think your much earlier point is absolutely true. There ought to be some equally life threatening incentive put forth for men, since some of them can't seem to come up with the motivation themselves. Ugh.

kissmypineapple – I think it is one part at least of a solution. But I think what I said before is also an important part of a solution. The what I was responding to was the insinuation in the article that one group of feminists saying women should be allowed to do anything a man does and another group of feminists saying men are intrinsically dangerous being mutually exclusive ideas. However the truth is that these are not mutually exclusive. The answer to rape is not women staying at home, but rather women forcing society to change the social contract.

In the short term I think we have to acknowledge that men will remain dangerous and when alcohol is involved doubly so. So the short-term answer must include safe space….

The point (mine and many other Busties'), Nohope, is that changing most peoples' frame of reference, currently fixated on the narrow mantra "to prevent rape it's up to individual women to be more careful", would ultimately pre-empt any need for creating female-only safe spaces.

anarch – I don’t see how there is any time to pre-empt. We are talking about current crises that require a current solution. While we work at changing our social relations, I think women deserve to have spaces in which they can be safe to live the same lives as men and enjoy the same opportunities as men. Safe not just from rape, but also from the fear of being raped.



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anarch
post Apr 30 2006, 04:13 PM
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alligator: I'm saying that in the context of it being understood that men have to do their part as well.

Thing is, I don't think it IS generally understood that men have to do their part as well. Because I've never heard media stories about it, and never heard men volunteer information about it, IRL or on discussion boards when the topic of “women need to be more careful” comes up. You and hoosierman78 have told us, in response to my and other Busties' posts, what you do, and it was cool to read that you both have talked about these issues in your circles. Thank you for that and for saying so in here. I'm glad to have you on our side. There probably are way more men than I realize who, like you, hold yourselves and your friends to a high standard of conduct.

Maybe I underestimate how many men do this because I never hear about it from them, or from news stories. Doing is critical, like you alligator and hoosierman78. It seems to me that talking about what you do, whenever you hear about rape in news stories or IRL or on discussion boards, not just with girlfriends but with guy friends or girl friends or family too, would maximize the impact of what you already do. You don't say how often these conversations happen, but I'm guessing not as often as there are news stories about rape and how women should protect themselves (I'd be happy to be corrected).

If more men talked about what they do, as often as we hear about those news stories targeting women's responsibility, wouldn't it spread the word that hey, here's a cool guy who doesn't put up with that shit from the people in his life, and he's not embarrassed to talk about important things? Wouldn't it let people who look up to you know that it's ok to talk about rape or “forced sex” (not the same thing in a lot of guys' minds, and that's something else that needs airing) or that it's hard to figure out grey areas and where the line is that shouldn't be crossed? And make the high standards you hold yourself to, crystal clear for people not only in your circles but those who are lurking (many of whom may have much lower standards you do)?

Doing what you do is effective. It seems to me that talking about what you do, as often as talking about what women can do, spreads that effectiveness out to many many more people.

I avoid being a hypocrite on this issue the same way I do on any other matter of conduct; I hold myself to the same standards as others.

Me, too. I agree you're not a hypocrite. I apologize for expressing myself poorly. My thinking was to suggest one possible explanation for why a lot of women may react strongly to men advising them to be more careful – misinterpretation of your position as a result of having too little information about how you personally contribute to creating a culture of respect for women, and too little emphasis (none, really) in media stories on how men generally also can contribute to reducing chances of rape occurring.

Of general interest: another poster on Metafilter linked to a Daily Kos discussion from October, debating whether all men are capable of rape. She (& I) likes this comment best.

Greenbean, I just hope I'm able to phrase the questions so as to get constructive responses. Having your and other Busties' and Busters' posts, to draw on, and those of other Metafilterites who've been building these ideas too, is humbling and inspiring. /very grateful to have meeting of minds with you all!
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greenbean
post Apr 30 2006, 01:41 PM
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I agree that it would be soooo helpful (and perhaps revolutionary) for men to have this discussion with other men and boys. I think (western) men and women can all agree that a stanger grabbing and forcing sex on a woman in a parking lot is rape, but we can't seem to agree on what makes date rape.

I think a lot has to due with the guy's grip. I my case with Joe, that was the difference. I had made-out with plently of boys before him, drunk boys even, but I never had felt scared until this experience with Joe. I wish I was brave enough to talk about the situation to his older brother, tell him that Joe needs to learn how to treat a girl. Unforch, the whole situation just embarrassed me and I havent seen either guy since. I can only hope that Joe was just being a dumb, drunk kid, and never forced anything on a girl again.

Similiarly, my best friend considers her first time having sex to be date rape--not in the legal sense because she never said "no"--but in the sense that he tightly held her wrists above her head the whole time. Like me she was very confused. She liked this guy and she knew he (and their high school) expected that sex follows a date, yet she felt like it wasnt her decision. Again, this wouldnt count as rape in court, but it was damaging to her nonetheless.

Good job with Metafilter, Anarch! This is a very important topic and I hope the discussion (on here and there) remains healthy. To the men on here: it means sooo much that you guys are willing to explore this issue. Please pass on tips to your friends/sons/brothers. A good tip would be: "Unless the girl asks you to play rough, never hold her in a tight grip. Besides, don't you want her hands free to caress your back or run her fingers through your hair?"


--------------------
I thank God I was raised Catholic, so sex will always be dirty.--John Waters
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