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> small breast support group - (I need it even if they don't)
beck
post Apr 21 2008, 12:31 PM
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QUOTE
i personally think its because of the lack of exposure to regular breasts doing their regular function. we've so sexualised the breast, made it so taboo that people are curious about it and become fixated on it.


i think you're onto something there - if this story on 12,000 women being arrested per year for breastfeeding is true...yikes!
http://www.feministezine.com/feminist/mode...-in-Public.html

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dj-bizmonkey
post Apr 21 2008, 11:35 AM
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so true, beck! i think anyone that puts themselves out there like that must have nerves of steel (or be terribly insecure, i think it varies and depends on the medium).

we ARE obsessed here in the USA, men and women. there are all kinds of theories as to why. i personally think its because of the lack of exposure to regular breasts doing their regular function. we've so sexualised the breast, made it so taboo that people are curious about it and become fixated on it. i think, for the most part, men like breasts, but only in the USA does it border on fetishism. there are also plenty of places in the world where breasts aren't sexual. they aren't an inherently sexual body part. they do give outward cues that a female is at least somewhat sexually mature, but that's about it. i hope that things will change in this country before all women end up looking like cut-up barbie dolls.

i will say this, even though we seem to think that 'bigger has always been better,' any exploration of art up until the late 19th early 20th century reveals that the small breast was revered and idealized. i've seen renaissance paintings of adam and even and to be quite honest, it's a little difficult to tell them apart except for her longer hair and more feminine face. it bothers me to think that the small breast has had its day, but all beauty trends ebb and flow over the years. in 100 years, who knows which body part we'll be obsessing over and having surgery to 'correct.'

edit: crinoline, i just saw your post, i think we must be posting at the same time. men would cry and hide in their bedrooms if they had to live through the constant scrutiny that women go through every day. i think it's part of a wider culture, this undercurrent of thought that women are somehow beholden to men, we belong to them, therefore they can criticize us and use us as they please. i'm picturing the group of guys that does that sort of thing and there are alot of beer bellies, bad skin and balding heads (though i think bald can be sexy...) in the mix. it reflects a sense of entitlement that even the lowest of the low out of men, i'm talking the dregs of society, the sense of entitlment they feel towards women. we are meant to be attractive and availble to them at all times as well as subject to their scrutiny. maybe this sounds like hyperbolic feminism to you, but to me, it's a harsh reality.


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crinoline
post Apr 21 2008, 11:30 AM
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the arrogance drives me crazy - i hate that men think they can pass judgement on women's bodies in that way. although (much as i like the photos and can't get enough of pics of nekkid hotties), i do think that by putting ourselves out there in that way we are inviting comments and 'feedback', just like any other commodity.

-The thing that really, really drives me crazy is that the majority of men seem to think that they can pass judgment on any woman's body at any time. (super overgeneralization, but whatever) Like, a group of guys will stand on a street corner and "rate" the women that walk by from 1-10 (and you know exactly the guys I'm talking about). The idea that all women are subject to constant scrutiny and grading of their appearance makes me nauseous. Just because we have breasts (no matter how small, lol) does NOT mean that we are here for men's judgment and approval. Just think how offended men would be if women judged their appearance in such an arrogant, dismissive way, all the time. ugh. /end rant

and it does seem that the US may have more unrealistic standards/expectations than the rest of the world.


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beck
post Apr 21 2008, 08:58 AM
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i really get the impression from this thread that there is more pressure in the US than there is here as far as having larger/surgically enhanced breasts (not that there isn't here, just maybe a little less so). perhaps the solution is to never read womens' magazines (or US playboy)?

as for that anais vert comment, the arrogance drives me crazy - i hate that men think they can pass judgement on women's bodies in that way. although (much as i like the photos and can't get enough of pics of nekkid hotties), i do think that by putting ourselves out there in that way we are inviting comments and 'feedback', just like any other commodity.
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karategrrl
post Apr 21 2008, 08:21 AM
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It was a real ego-booster to see some bodies and boobies like mine in that artistic nude blogspot!

Yeah, about Lou Doillon's Playboy pictorial--the issue of her body being appealing can be an issue of personal preference, but I think if people think it's "weird," it's maybe more an issue of expectations--I don't know if her photos are typical of what's in French Playboy, but they're at least very a-typical of what's in most porn mags, at least in the U.S. So if someone picks up that mag expecting to ogle massive knockers, they're going to be disappointed. However, if they are more open to artsy nudes, they might like it.

She doesn't do much for me personally (on an arousal level), but I do think she has a very interesting look, and that I do appreciate. More than that, I am totally blown away to see something artsy like this--with a small-breasted woman, no less--in a mainstream magazine. Maybe there is hope yet!
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Vendetta
post Apr 20 2008, 04:48 PM
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That artistic nude blogspot is actually great for wannabe photographers like me lol thanks
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knorl05
post Apr 19 2008, 12:37 AM
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so i was feeling all good about my body after looking at those photos of Lou Doillon, because i have a very similar body to hers; in fact that's pretty much what my boobs look like on a good day. and then i scroll down and read: "anais_vert 2008-03-16 01:34 am UTC Her figure isn't all that great...something about it is strange. Her boobs don't look too great either" WOW. i really think the main difference between the appreciation of erotic art and porn, is that individuals find a naked body esthetically appealing, regardless of it's irregularities, with the former. it's like erotic art is a feast for the eyes, while speaking to the mind/body/soul, and porn only serves the specific purpose to get a person off. bah.

so yeah i really share your sentiments edie. and of course dj biz. and all my other lovely busties who know what its like.

edit-i think this would be the healthier response for me: they are entitled to their opinions and i must not take it personally because they are not speaking specifically of me only someone with whom i can relate. if i were to pose naked, it'd be important to remember that there may be adverse reactions to my form, but considering i chose to put myself in that situation, i'd have to be ok with it. cant really change their minds.. ideally we could open them, educate them, but there is no guarantee they would or could be influenced by anything other than the establishments of which created them. ok. now i feel better.

artistic nude blogspot


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karategrrl
post Apr 18 2008, 02:04 PM
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Returning us to our regularly scheduled breast discussion...


"women always say they get implants to improve their self-esteem or feel better about themselves, but they rarely question why they feel so bad in the first place?"

I couldn't have said it better myself. We shouldn't be "fixing" breasts, we should be fixing attitudes.
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crinoline
post Apr 18 2008, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE
women always say they get implants to improve their self-esteem or feel better about themselves, but they rarely question why they feel so bad in the first place? i think implants are treating the symptoms and not the source of the infection: in this case, mainstream media.

- you do seriously rock, dj. How true is that!?!

edie- thanks for the link, it is truly astonishing, the difference between that spread and the typical American bunny. She is gorgeous.


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dj-bizmonkey
post Apr 18 2008, 12:05 PM
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oh i wasn't referring to you implant bashing karategrrl, i was more talking about some of the comments people put up on yahoo and on the french playboy thread. no worries!

also, edie, i feel you honey, it's probably why i got so up at arms when i read that stupid sexual selection theory of breasts (the missionary position guy). i doubt i would have felt so enraged if iwas toting around a pair of DD's. in fact, if i was, i might be thinking, why the hell was this selected for, it isn't very comfortable! it's the same for me though, i feel better about mysef when people talk about how hot j-lo is because we have a very similar body type. and she doesn't have huge boobs either, i mean, they are definitely bigger than mine (prob a big b or a small c), but they aren't like scarlett j or jayne mansfield. i know what you are saying about being reduced down to a single body part. it's very frustrating. i find myself even deconstructing the women around me. we all want to be seen as a whole, not just a whole body, but a whole person (mind and soul included). even though it's kind of cheesy, the 007b website has a good paragraph about this. all we're asking is that breasts be just like necks, or stomachs, or legs, or lips,or eyes, or any other part of the body that we find beautiful as opposed to this obsession, fixation, fetishism, ya know?

and i could look at pictures of beautiful small-breasted women all day long.

women always say they get implants to improve their self-esteem or feel better about themselves, but they rarely question why they feel so bad in the first place? i think implants are treating the symptoms and not the source of the infection: in this case, mainstream media.

edit: i think threads like this treat both! i love you ladies!!


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karategrrl
post Apr 18 2008, 11:30 AM
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DJ, not much to say, except you just seriously rock! Rant here anytime!!!!!! and it's great that your beau has the balls to stand out in a crowd and defend his views. There may be others who feel the same way in the group but don't have the nerve to say so.

Oh, and I hope it doesn't seem like I was implant-bashing. When I read about the ways they can cause physical problems, the breast implant phenomenon just baffles me, that's all.

I am SO all for hearing appreciation of beautiful small breasts as well as seeing pictures of same!
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edie52
post Apr 18 2008, 11:28 AM
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Yes, very interesting indeed, dj. Good for you for deconstructing that flawed argument!

Yeah, some of those comments bugged me too. I was psyched that lots of people were simply saying "wow, beautiful" or "i have a new crush," but it's actually the negative comments have been echoing in my head all day. Especially since some were also saying that her face was unattractive- one woman said she "didn't get" the attraction to skinny girls with no boobs and horse faces and big teeth or something like that- which pretty much describes me too- I'm no Lou, but the same type I guess. And like with any person or type- some will find it attractive, others not so much. I know this kind of shit happens all over tv and the internet with all different kinds of people but it stings more when you share some qualities with that person. I dislike fat-bashing a lot too but it doesn't hit me on a gut level- I can read something, be disgusted, and then forget about it. It's also ridiculous how I feel sooo validated when I see someone like her, and then fret over people's responses to her. I wish I could just feel okay in my skin.

I also hate how women are so often seen as various parts and not a whole- "oh, this part is okay, but that one is too big/small/ugly." The worst part is that we see ourselves that way, as well. It must be so hard to be a woman in the media. I can see how some people become so affected by the shitstorm of negative, disgusting things people say about them, all from behind their computers.
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dj-bizmonkey
post Apr 18 2008, 11:01 AM
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yeah, there were a couple on there that actually had some insight. but for me, bashing implants is not the same as recognizing the beauty and femininity of small breasts.

p.s. did you guys see any of the comments on the playboy link that edie posted? (thanks for that by the way, she is smokin' hot) there was one that said, 'i love her breasts, as wierd as that sounds.'

why should that sound weird? i think that some men get pressured into saying they love big boobs by what i call, fraternal idiocy. it's the same mob mentality we might get in a big group of women who all start bashing themselves. even though you might feel secure, you feel like you have to say something negative about the way you look just to fit in with the group. my bf says he gets around guys like that all the time. he just shakes his head and says the same thing, 'big boobs are overrated.' the typical reaction he gets from them is, 'great! more for me.'

as strong as i think i am or may be perceived, i've been having a rough time with this issue lately. i feel like it flares up ever now and again. maybe it's because i just did a lecture in my sex and repro class on breastfeeding. i ended up reading a bunch of articles on the evolution of breasts, since we are the only mammals to have this orb-like mammaries. other primates get swollen breasts when they are lactating, but nothing compared to what we see in the range of humans. one author, who irked me, tried to say that breasts evolved because we were bipedal and changed our sexual position from rear entry to the 'missionary position' and breasts were selected for because of the visual sexual cue they gave in that position. this argument is flawed for a couple reasons. first off, there is no 'normal' position or even universal position to human heterosexual intercourse. if he had taken five minutes to look up the origin of the word 'missionary position' he would see that it derives its name from the missionaries who came to the new world and were appalled that the native americans did it doggie-style, up on all fours, on their sides, flat on her stomach and also woman on top. and if breasts, specifically large breasts, were driven by sexual selection then why would any women like you or i or the majority of the women in thailand even exist? we would have been selected out at least by 30,000 years ago along with occipital buns and hefty brow ridges.

i know i'm ranting, but i want to continue. the one hypothesis i came across that was actually compelling stated that breasts evolved their shape in humans to aid the infant in suckling. because humans, unlike our primate relatives, lack a large, forward projecting chin. our relatively flat faces (which is especially apparent at infancy before the influence of testosterone on cranio-facial features) would make suckling on an entirely flat chest (like a chimps e.g.) quite difficult because the infants nostrils would be pushed up against the skin, inhibiting breathing. it doesn't take an enormous orb to provide the proper angle to allow an infant to suckle and breath at the same time, just a slight increase in the angle.

i thought you ladies might find that interesting. and while there is NO link between breast size and the ability to breastfeed (except for in the rare case of hypomastia where vital tissue and duct systems are missing) there is a difference in our storage capacity. solution: small breasted women have to breastfeed more frequently than large breasted women. simple as that. and in our ancestral environment, with babies in slings across our chests with constant access to the breast, this wouldn't really be an issue, now would it? so you can shove your 'big breasts are selected for over small breasts' up your ass!

oh, i feel so VINDICATED!


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karategrrl
post Apr 18 2008, 07:05 AM
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Hey ladies, check this out!!!! There ARE some non-neanderthal men out there!!!!
ohmy.gif
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_y...13060838AAAr9t6

And click here and scroll down for the woman whose friend DIED after implant ruptured during a plane flight! Egads!

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_y...17072546AAL8bva
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karategrrl
post Apr 18 2008, 06:41 AM
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QUOTE(edie52 @ Apr 18 2008, 11:10 AM) *
Like with the Keira "Interview" cover. The more I think about it the more totally fucked up it is that if she the same fucking breasts but with plastic bags shoved inside, she would be thought of as more sexy and more normal. One guy even commented that she looks 12 and it is somehow wrong.


<sigh.> Sometimes I long for the '70s, when I was a kid. No one ever heard of implants then. Sure, many women still longed for larger breasts, but overall, variety in breast size must have been waaay more appreciated than it is now.

Yes, edie, it is VERY disturbing (or at least we ladies here think so) that "fake" is the new "normal." And we are living at a time when we are here to witness it. I mean, when did this breast implant shit really start hitting the mainstream--the early '80s? We are witnessing the first generation of people who grew up with this "option" and we are seeing its effect on their now-warped perceptions. So. Fucking. Sad.

Love the Lou Dillo photos. I'd never heard of her. I think I just realized it's not porn itself that bothers me as much as porn that promotes false, idealized bodies as okay, acceptable, and even preferable.
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edie52
post Apr 18 2008, 04:53 AM
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Lou Doillon (she is Jane Birkin's daughter and Charlotte Gainsbourg's half-sister)

Ok, I know it ain't revolutionary for a thin, French model to be showing off her small ta-tas, but I love that she was on the cover of French Playboy. Most of the comments were really positive (though I didn't read past the 1st page). I saw another pic, though, where the comment section was totally split between "yay small boobies!" and people who were making fun of her or just baffled. Like with the Keira "Interview" cover. The more I think about it the more totally fucked up it is that if she the same fucking breasts but with plastic bags shoved inside, she would be thought of as more sexy and more normal. One guy even commented that she looks 12 and it is somehow wrong. She's 25, has a kid, and if you look at the full-body shot it's clear that she has some hips, bum, waist, and pubes (in addition to her breasts which are small but not pre-pubescent). She's naturally thin, just look at her mom and sister! Men who want to have sex with us are not pedophiles! It's just a slightly different kind of femininity. She still looks very feminine to me.

I googled more pics of her and found a few (ads for Lee) where her boobs look waaaay bigger. But I didn't investigate further.

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karategrrl
post Apr 17 2008, 06:35 AM
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QUOTE(newo_ikkin @ Apr 16 2008, 08:59 PM) *
Me? Strong? heh... I like to think so but I have yet to be put in a situation where it's really tested. As far as I'm concerned, I'm all talk. =)


I believe all things go through a 3-step process to be realized:
1) Thought
2) Thoughts become words
3) Words become action

See, you're already well on your way! wink.gif
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newo_ikkin
post Apr 16 2008, 02:42 PM
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Me? Strong? heh... I like to think so but I have yet to be put in a situation where it's really tested. As far as I'm concerned, I'm all talk. =)
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karategrrl
post Apr 16 2008, 11:36 AM
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"if a woman has implants we have to pull the nipple out while pushing the implant back to get as much natural tissue in there as possible. "

Oh. My. Gawd. Right there is enough reason for me NOT to get them. I imagine you are an radiographer. I was once an x-ray tech aide. I loved when women would come in for chest x-rays and lie about having implants. We could see them clear as day, along with IUDs, "secret" piercings...there were no secrets! rolleyes.gif

"I've heard of women who get large tattoos to cover their mastectomy scars. As much as I would be excited for a reason to get reconstructive augmentation, I think I'd be more likely to turn my chest into a little work of art. Breast cancer runs in my family so I've thought about that from time to time."

Wow, what a creative and positive alternative. You are such a strong woman!
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Vendetta
post Apr 15 2008, 04:24 PM
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Exactly... I've seen way too much drop-dead gorgeous "before" breasts and that makes me want to get violent too. I can understand why an AA cup wants to go for a B Cup like I do but I just don't get it when B cups are going for D's... argh that's society's pressure happening.
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