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> Life After Capitalism
nohope
post Sep 25 2008, 01:35 PM
Post #41


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Coops are anarchistic in so much as they are run less coercively than their alternatives.

In general democracy and democratic institutions are more anarchistic.

Whether one barters or not, is really a question of what mechanism one believes will handle exchanges least coercively.

From my perspective barter is not any less coercive a method of exchange than money. In fact I would argue that money is fundamentally a form of barter. Barter by proxy. At least in it's pure form.

Clearly under Nationalism, money being backed by the coercive force of the state, is not bartering.

Under Capitalism, capitalists use money, backed by State force, as a mechanism to circumvent the free market and extort unfair exchanges. i.e. Proudhon: What is Property?

Proudhon, points out that it's realy the use of state force to protect "property," that is at the heart of economic inequilty.
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girltrouble
post Sep 24 2008, 01:20 PM
Post #42


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yes but do you call a coop an anarchist monetary system? sounds more like a barter system.


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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nohope
post Sep 24 2008, 12:32 PM
Post #43


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``Although the government tried to debase the yen by printing a lot of government bonds, the economy went into a standstill,'' said Cheah, an official at the Monetary Authority of Singapore from 1991 to 1999 who manages $2 billion at AIG SunAmerica Asset Management in Jersey City, New Jersey. ``The banks used the money to buy safety. I see a repeat happening here. The banks will use it to buy Treasuries.''

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=206...Xg&refer=us
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nohope
post Sep 24 2008, 08:24 AM
Post #44


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"how would you suggest getting the powers to take part in an anarchist approach to the current credit crisis? I've been a fan of anarchy for some time. it seems like the ideals of anarchy can be difficult to implement in today's society. not that i don't think it's worth the effort to try, but, I'm interested in your take."

People will take part when the alternative is no longer viable.

The IWW has the motto, "By organizing industrially we are forming the structure of the new society within the shell of the old." The IWW is a union, and forming unions and taking over the means of production is only one means of resting control of how we live from the capitalists and placing it in our won hands were we can run our own workplaces for the benefit our ourselves.

But building a wold predicated on anarchism means organizing lots of other ways. It;s the worker or buyers owned coop. It's the farmers market. The cooperative bank/credit union. It's the alternative currency like Ithaca Hours. Or the Alternative insurgence like the Philahealthia Citizens' Health Coops.

For people to take part in anarchism, they have to have something to take part in. I talk about three main things here on bust.

One... I post about community institutions which are trying to organize and run projects on anarchistic principles. The people trying to build the institutions which will constitute the new society with in the old.

Two.... I post about the ideas which inspire them.

Three.... I post about how the unsustainable of the present social structure.

When capitalism is brought to it's knees by it's own dead wait, it will be those who have sustainable alternative ventures who will be there to absorber the huge demand caused by difference's of corporate America.

When super Wall-Marts start pulling out of our towns in order to cut costs.... Will we have built the institutions, the coops, to take up this slack?

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girltrouble
post Sep 23 2008, 05:05 PM
Post #45


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i do wish you would not do the cut and paste thing, hopey. i love reading what you have to say.... if you're the one speaking. otherwise i just ignore your posts and i think you have a lot of good stuff to contribute.

i know you know how to link, so please, link rather than c&p.


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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stargazer
post Sep 23 2008, 05:02 PM
Post #46


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Hello nohope! long time no post. it is good to see you around here.


how would you suggest getting the powers to take part in an anarchist approach to the current credit crisis? i've been a fan of anarchy for some time. it seems like the ideals of anarchy can be difficult to implement in today's society. not that i don't think it's worth the effort to try, but, i'm interested in your take.


--------------------
"I'm not impressed easily. Wow! A blue car!"-Homer Simpson
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nohope
post Sep 23 2008, 04:56 PM
Post #47


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"As it had been in 1907, during the 1920s the availability of credit was an overriding concern to cash-strapped farmers who found that demand had slackened considerably with the end of the war in Europe. They turned to Washington for help. In response to those appeals for easier credit, Congress established the banks and associations of the current Farm Credit System between 1916 and 1933 to make loans to farmers and ranchers and their cooperatives. All Farm Credit System institutions are private credit cooperatives owned by their borrower-members, and operate at no cost to the Federal Government. Loan funds are raised by selling notes and bonds in the financial markets. The cost of raising funds is a key determinant of the interest rate charged agricultural producers and their cooperatives when loans are made. Farm Credit System institutions are supervised, regulated, and examined by the Farm Credit Administration....."

".....The Farm Credit Act of 1933 established the third component of the system--local production credit associations to make short- and intermediate-term production loans to farmers. Congress created these associations to channel funds directly to producers from each intermediate credit bank because private lenders were unable to meet the credit needs of farmers coping with the Great Depression. Responding to the financing difficulties which farmer cooperatives had faced in the 1920s, the 1933 Act also provided for 12 district banks for cooperatives and a Central Bank to make loans to farmers' marketing, purchasing, and business service cooperatives. The Farm Credit Administration (FCA), which supervises the Farm Credit System, was established as an independent agency in 1933 by an Executive Order. Under a reorganization plan, the FCA was transferred to the Department of Agriculture in 1939. The Farm Credit Act of 1953 reconstituted the FCA under the direction, supervision, and control of the Federal Farm Credit Board and established it as an independent Federal agency. When Congress established each component of the FCS, the Federal Government provided capital to establish a financial base to carry out each bank's operations. The 1953 Act, however, declared the policy of Congress to favor increased borrower participation in the control and ultimate ownership of the Farm Credit System and the eventual retirement of all Federal Government funds. By 1969, all government funding had been retired."

http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/senate/...ulture/ch3.html
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girltrouble
post Sep 23 2008, 02:20 PM
Post #48


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oooooh! kitty!


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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nohope
post Sep 23 2008, 02:14 PM
Post #49


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What might an anarchist solution to the Credit Crises look like.

OK

Americans join federally backed Local Bank Cooperatives which will be limited in size. These bank's will buy mortgage backed securities and other investments from banks going bankrupt.

They will then coordinate together to refinance the debt of their members.

By means of this kind of market mechanism we can transfer our banking system from a non transparent totalitarian model, to a transparent democratically member driven model using market forces to deflate assets to reflect the markets true valuations and pass along the saving which were expropriated threw the housing bubble back to consumers.
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nohope
post Sep 23 2008, 01:28 PM
Post #50


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I do believe Anarchism is the only solution.

But of course when I say anarchism I might mean something different than you do.

I don't mean a world with out structure. I mean a world whose structure is informed by solutions which happen to be espoused by people who call themselves and their ideas anarchism.

I'm not an ideological anarchist, I'm an anarchist because i value liberty above all else. and I value liberty, I believe because biologically i am fundamentally, as are all humans, evolved to value it. So I am an anarchist not by choice, but by nature.

That is why anarchism is the only solution. Because by our nature we are all anarchists. We all want relationships free of coercion.

The root of this crises is coercion, market coercion, political coercion, social coercion.

Womens liberation itself is fundamentally a struggle against coercion. It's about the right of every human, but in this case focused on women, having the right to live a full life without coercive forces telling them how to act.

But more importantly Bakunin's Social Anarchism leads the way in shining a light on the nature of liberty itself, and their by the means of enabling all humans to live free. That is that each of use is only as free as the least free among us, that freedom is not a zero sum game, of my freedom being an extension of your lack of freedom, but rather the other way around, that when I enable you to be free, and you enable me to be free, that our aggregate freedom is more than the sum of our individual freedom.

As social animals we live and die together, we are free and enslaved together.

Which of course is why I am interested in the womens liberation struggle.

http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/topics/Economy

So yes we are not out of the woods when we use government to force compliance.

First, Anarchism's analysis that governments are a mechanism of capitalist exploitation has and is being shown true again and again, as it has since the 1850's

Second, Social Anarchism analysis that change must come from with in would seam to be again validated by the present circumstances. ... even if we have a NEW new deal, until those who would be our masters reject the ideology of fascism and embrace anarchism... we will just have another replay of events.

Because these cycles are a products of human coercion. and since humans are evolved to cooperate and not be coerced, fascisms unnatural social structures invariable create unsustainable social imbalances.

Economics really is a mechanism for quantifying social interactions. Economic inequality is troubling because it statistically reflects a societal imbalance. An imbalance of power. Power of self actualization.
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stargazer
post Sep 22 2008, 08:51 PM
Post #51


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girltrouble
post Sep 22 2008, 08:20 PM
Post #52


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hey vixen,

naomi klein wrote something about the meltdown/bailout for huff post titled Now is the Time to Resist Wall Street's Shock Doctrine.


speaking of former clinton folks and economics, one of obama's advisors is robert reich. since his time with clinton he's moved much further left. if you get pri's radio show "marketplace" he's a contributor, and one i'm always happy to hear. he's often on tv, and writes for huffpost too.

here is his blog which as a nifty little look at what the gov't should be doing about the melt down and the bailout


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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girltrouble
post Sep 22 2008, 07:59 PM
Post #53


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nah. i tried the nader route, that burnt up the last of my optimism. and i'll grant yo that the dems aren't saints. you know me well enough to know i dislike the clintons for the reasons you stated-- and more. but it's obama or mccain this time round. but i think the thing i learned from the clintons being in office is that just because your guy gets in, that doesn't mean you get a 4 year vacation. you still have to make the calls, and put pressure on them to do what's right. you have to "help" them by giving them a climate where they can go to the opposition and shrug, "i can't do anything but go along with these nutty lefties--- there's too much pressure."

but the idea of anarchy as a solution, is silly. come on nh, even you don't believe that.


it's good to see you actually posting nh, as opposed to cutting and pasting. welcome back.


--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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nohope
post Sep 22 2008, 05:27 PM
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"let's not forget this was, thanks to gop deregultaion, an money making operation. it was the republican lobbyists down on k street, getting favors from people like mccain's economic advisor, phill gramm (and his wife), to get them to allow naked short selling, and many of the capitol draining features that sunk enron, and now many others."

Lets not forget the Democrats, who voted for all this deregulation. Clinton was one of the Archutechts. Remember Seatle.

That WTO protest was in direct opposition to Clinton economic policies.

This is not a D vs R issue, this is a Class War issue. and the Democrats are on the wrong side.

So will you vote for Nader, or Cynthia Mckinney

Or do we get 8 more years of failed policies.
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nohope
post Sep 22 2008, 05:13 PM
Post #55


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This latest bail out is a crock and even Wall street knows it.

When these idiots talk about market fundamentals, they are talking out of their asses.

To me these are the fundamentals.

Unsustainable Income inequality, leading to higher prices greater inequality etc... leading to homelessness, starvation, no medical care, death

Unsupportable individual and national debt burden, leading to cost cutting, bankruptcy, fewer jobs, less price competition, higher prices, lower wages, homelessness, lack of health care, starvation, death.

You can pure as much money into Wall street as you like, but we all know what that means, Greater income inequality, more political corruption, dollar devaluation, increased prices, more debt, fewer customers, lower demand, fewer jobs, lower wages, more unemployed, more bankruptcy, more homelessness, more health care insecurity, more starvation, death.

There are only two ways this goes down, cause this is a simple question of supply and demand.

1. you redistribute wealth/consumer power, there by increasing demand and creating jobs.

or

2. you let the market kill off the excess supply of human resources.

ok there is a third way.

Anarchims
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girltrouble
post Sep 22 2008, 03:56 PM
Post #56


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it does-- of a sort. the book is about situations where the SD is used, so in the last chapter she talks about situations where there has been resistance to it.



--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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vixen_within
post Sep 22 2008, 03:35 PM
Post #57


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That bail out strikes me as one of those glaringly obvious future failures, the type that kids learn about in history class in the year 2052 thinking, "boy were people gullible in the olden days.."

not even gullible, just under thumb in a big way.

You know, I've only ever heard naomi klein in interview about that book (never read it), do you know if her analysis offers up any solutions?


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you cannot erase the reality of me
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girltrouble
post Sep 21 2008, 01:19 PM
Post #58


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well, i've been laid off because of this sucky economy, so i do. what is irksome to me is how some of the republicans-- and it's almost always republicans, who are blaming home owners defaulting.

hmph.


as if poor people all got together and conned the big financial corps into giving them mortgages that would eventually make them homeless and screw up their credit even more.

yeah right. let's not forget this was, thanks to gop deregultaion, an money making operation. it was the republican lobbyists down on k street, getting favors from people like mccain's economic advisor, phill gramm (and his wife), to get them to allow naked short selling, and many of the capitol draining features that sunk enron, and now many others.

and like so many of these things they try to tell you it's sooooo complex. it's not. check this out:
james moore explains it all to you.. THE FINANCIAL MELTDOWN FOR BEGININERS




it was interesting to see naomi klein on real time this week pointing out this is EXACTLY what she was talking about in her book the shock doctrine. but i think we also have to see this an an opportunity-- if americans put pressure on THEIR government they can put caviats on this new bailout that will help the middle and working class. the sort of thing that obama (finally) is talking about. this is our chance to use our leverage to demand these execs don't get golden parachutes as they get fired (like carly fiorina) to the tune of 10's of millions.

but they don't want that. even today you have this headline "Bush Treasury Sec: Don't Add Households To Financial Bailout Plan." because the assholes on the right only want the rich to get the payoff here.

shock doctrine. here, in action. this is just another monitary syphon to give taxpayer's money to the rich and the huge corperations.



--------------------

"what a swell farewell party! we said goodbye to everything, including the lining in my stomach." - garvey, from the film, born bad

"That's one career all females have in common, whether we like it or not: being a woman. Sooner or later, we've got to work at it, no matter how many other careers we've had or wanted." --margo channing, all about eve
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vixen_within
post Sep 21 2008, 11:37 AM
Post #59


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Thoughts about the American economy (and its conjoined twin, the Canadian economy) have been on my mind with the alarming announcements we're getting in the news. Does anybody feel directly affected at this point?


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you cannot erase the reality of me
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nohope
post Jan 13 2008, 09:49 PM
Post #60


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Starbucks Emails Describe Efforts to Stop Unionization [Wall Street Journal]

A series of emails by Starbucks Corp. managers sheds light on the company's efforts to thwart union organizing among its baristas.

http://www.iww.org/en/node/3879
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